Pierce wants to talk about Zelda. All come hither

[Pierce7d]

NOTE: I DO PLAY SHEIK. HOWEVER, THIS THREAD IS NOT DESIGNED TO TALK ABOUT SHEIK AT ALL. THIS MAY CHANGE IN THE FUTURE, BUT FOR NOW, PLEASE ONLY TALK ABOUT SOLO ZELDA.

I'm going to be expanding the OP, because I expect a lot of positive discussion to come as a result of this thread. I've been using the character a lot for fun lately. As quite a few of you know, I've frequently stated my opinion, and still hold onto it, that Zelda is the third worse character in the game, after Link and Ganondorf. However, Zelda players like you said, "Pierce, Zelda cannot be that bad."

So, trying to be open minded, I picked up Zelda for myself. I'm quite competent with her, and have beaten several talented players with her. In the process, I obviously learned many techniques, and strategies about the character. I'm now unsure if I think she's bottom three, but I do for sure know that Zelda isn't as entirely worthless as I previously thought.

Please feel free to bring in any topics regarding Zelda's competative play, including stuff already being discussed on other threads. I'm unlikely to read through the Zelda boards, so if you want to bring something to my attention (MUs, problems with the character, etc), we can talk about it here as well and I'll see if I can give you a different perspective.

I want to open up the discussion by talking about Zelda's approaches. I did memorize quite a bit of Zelda's frame data, but I cannot find the frame data thread to reference my research and double check my findings (because memory fails us all at some point.) If someone could provide a link for me, I would appreciate that tremendously.

Many people complain that Zelda's approaches are her weakest aspect. So the first thing I did when picking up Zelda was to analyze in what ways she could approach. It didn't take long for me to realize that camping with Din's Fire is as fail as previously expected, and it didn't take me much longer than that to realize that approaching with an aerial isn't that effective.

So basically, I needed to see if it was possible for Zelda to approach on the ground. Ew. I almost completely gave up when I saw Zelda's grab was frame 12 or 13. At this point, I nearly threw up, but for the sake of experiment, I continued on.

It turns out that Zelda can indeed approach from the ground. A cloud of relief hit me when I realized that Zelda's Dash Attack was an amazing frame 5. I also realized that her dash grab wasn't much slower if at all slower than her standing grab, and had a very good hitbox. Lastly, Zelda's running Usmash destroys spot dodges AND jumping. It could also shieldstab well, which was good, if you bombarded an opponent's shield with Din's Fire, or poked at them with her remarkably safe Dtilt and Fsmash walls (which I'm starting to mix in a tad bit of jab)

So my basic approach strategy was to use Dash attack or Usmash at key times to break my opponent's walls, and see how the opponent liked to react. From there, I mixed in grab with those two options to beat the shield, which would come much more often after my opponent perceived that I like to rush in with fast and powerful moves. Zelda's grab was very rewarding, making extremely good set-ups and having great base damage (note, I'm a Marth main, and our strongest throw is Dthrow, which does 5%).

Now, as a player, my basic strategies involve finding attack patterns that remove opponent's stocks very quickly. I'm aware that this game is limited in true combos, but it does have quite a few really solid attack strings. I found a lovely one for Zelda that I think all should be aware of.

Usmash an opponent, then read the opponent's DI and airdodge, and Usmash again. From there, guess either shield or no, and either dash attack or grab. If you grab, throw them forward off the stage, then run toward them and Uair. MANY, MANY, MANY GOOD PLAYERS WILL JUMP after being thrown forward by Zelda. The reasoning? Why would you try to go for the ledge which Zelda is standing near, when you can just go over her and recover to the stage? Also, you don't want to get hit by a forward air, Usmash, or some other obvious follow up, so players tend to try and jump out of range over these options. They also DO NOT airdodge. Why would you airdodge when you don't perceive the threat of an attack. This would normally only leave you open for attack. It's simply not in most player's habit set to avoid this nature of attack (rising death chase while pseudo recovering)

So, with this blitz attack pattern, I successfully have killed many people at 60% with Zelda's Uair. Often this is 0/20 - death, very early in the match.

I have much more to talk about, but I'll end the OP here to start discussion.

 

[Pierce7d]

Reserved for future use

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Amazing post Pierce although I don't understand how you could think Zelda is 3rd worst in the game. But whatever I guess. Anyways i think you covered her approaches. I look forward to more stuff from this thread.

 

[Kataefi]

Hmmmm... I was expecting something else but I'm pleasantly surprised.

I'm quite interested in your strategies Pierce. A lot of us have little niche strategies that can work here and there. Would be great to get a collection of all these strategies into one big post which I hope you plan to do. If you are going to read any thread, make sure it's the stickied Q&A thread, it has all the important links in the OP you need.

I personally tend to try and focus on her utility moves from time to time - dtilt and nair string into power moves quite nicely. Other than that - it's just the fundamentals Spacing, outspacing, and getting those sneaky power aerials in.

_

Just throwing this out randomly @everyone - what's this I'm hearing about Dsmash out of a run?

EDIT: Frame Data
You might find some of the other findings there quite interesting.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Usmash an opponent, then read the opponent's DI and airdodge, and Usmash again. From there, guess either shield or no, and either dash attack or grab. If you grab, throw them forward off the stage, then run toward them and Uair.

--

It's simply not in most player's habit set to avoid this nature of attack (rising death chase while pseudo recovering)

This string actually sums up pretty neatly a factor common in many of Zelda's tactics. It works great against people with little experience playing against her, but as they get more familiar with her moveset it rapidly loses its effectiveness. It doesn't take too long until they learn just what moves they should watch for after getting hit, how they should try to position themselves compared to Zelda etc.

What this means is this: the more experience your opponent has fighting Zelda before, the more careful and cautious you need to play. She doesn't have lots of truly safe options or true followups and suffers some rather huge limitations, so for the most part you'll need to rely on poking and punishing. Then you must combine that with your reading and prediction skills to follow up after every time you hit. If you're good at this you can get some extremely early kills and cause ridiculous amounts of damage in short amounts of time, but predicting wrong will either get you punished and juggled or simply reset the situation to where you're back at trying to find an opening to start the pressuring game again.

Just throwing this out randomly @everyone - what's this I'm hearing about Dsmash out of a run?

Do you mean the true pivot?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4tmLsflA_c

 

[mountain_tiger]

While Zelda undoubtedly sucks hard, I find it difficult to imagine her being worse than Captain Falcon... Everyone else is debatable.

An underrated technique with Zelda is USmash chasing. USmash > USmash is next to never a true combo, but juggling opponents with USmashes can be very useful against characters with slow air speeds, especially if they've lost their second jump. I once managed to get 4 or so USmashes on DDD simply by guessing where he was going to go.

Also, UThrow > Uair with platforms is legit. At certain percents, the UThrow will send them at the level of the platform. From there it's a guessing game to land a Uair. If they do nothing, they land with a thud and get hit by Uair. If they tech, move aerially to where they go and Uair. If they double jump, Uair will hit them due to its huge range. If they airdodge simply wait a bit then Uair.

 

[Kataefi]

@HSS - ahhh so it can only be done via a pivot? That's a shame... if it can be done normally then, well, a frame 4 dash attack could be used!

 

[JuJux]

@HSS - ahhh so it can only be done via a pivot? That's a shame... if it can be done normally then, well, a frame 4 dash attack could be used!

Yeah. considering its usefulness and the difficulty to perform it, it's not worth trying it in a match

Amazing post Pierce =o

I've frequently stated my opinion, and still hold onto it, that Zelda is the third worse character in the game, after Link and Ganondorf.

Omg Zelda behind C.Falcon, YOU'RE CRAZY ? D= !

Usmash an opponent, then read the opponent's DI and airdodge, and Usmash again. From there, guess either shield or no, and either dash attack or grab. If you grab, throw them forward off the stage, then run toward them and Uair. MANY, MANY, MANY GOOD PLAYERS WILL JUMP after being thrown forward by Zelda. The reasoning? Why would you try to go for the ledge which Zelda is standing near, when you can just go over her and recover to the stage? Also, you don't want to get hit by a forward air, Usmash, or some other obvious follow up, so players tend to try and jump out of range over these options. They also DO NOT airdodge. Why would you airdodge when you don't perceive the threat of an attack. This would normally only leave you open for attack. It's simply not in most player's habit set to avoid this nature of attack (rising death chase while pseudo recovering)

We talked about that on an other thread :3 :
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=9462779#post9462779 5 last posts or something like that ~

 

[Half-Split Soul]

@HSS - ahhh so it can only be done via a pivot? That's a shame... if it can be done normally then, well, a frame 4 dash attack could be used!

At least I can't think of any other way right now... except Dsmash after running perfect shield, of course.

 

[Pierce7d]

I've found that airdodge weaving is also pretty useful. Zelda's aerial agility is high. She is quickly able to change direction in the air. Her floatiness actually serves her well here, because she can airdodge in and out, to gain spacing, as an approach, and land into dtilt/fsmash. I also like to use a lot of stutter stepped fsmashes + dtilt, and then a random approaching Usmash to break opponents that try to jump over the wall.

I do also feel that Zelda lacks a lot of reliable tools, but she's a little bit safer than I realized between her very rewarding Fsmash and her dtilt. She reminds me a lot of Lucario in some aspects. Too bad she doesn't have that roll, lmao.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

I'm going to post a little later. 1st day at work and going to a monster truck rally later.

I enjoyed reading the post Pierce.

 

[KayLo!]

Sweet OP.

I've found that airdodge weaving is also pretty useful. Zelda's aerial agility is high. She is quickly able to change direction in the air. Her floatiness actually serves her well here, because she can airdodge in and out, to gain spacing, as an approach, and land into dtilt/fsmash.

I love doing that. Jump forward > airdodge backward > fsmash = <3

Or straight up SHADing through people, although that's a bit riskier.

Staying completely grounded is very '09 Zelda.... 2010 Zelda uses her aerial mobility like a champ.

Too bad she doesn't have that roll, lmao.

Love love love her tech roll, though.... it goes ridiculously far. Annoys the **** out of Snakes.

 

[Kataefi]

I empty SH A LOT... sometimes I run up and stand still to bait a response. There are many unconventional approach methods you can use.

If you can get that shield depleted with Zelda you're in a position to get some decent pokes. I've already reaslied that it takes only a jab for Nair to start poking from a SH. Dtilt, Dsmash, Ftilt, especially the kicks, all poke decently well.

Sometimes I mix up single/double jumps to FFNair behind their shield and if that pokes or hits it's normally a free attack. If they shield all of it then it's straight to buffered dtilt, or if I can predict their bair OoS then go straight into Usmash. Otherwise it's the usual get away asap and reset the space game. Dtilt is good for emergency thinking because it actually avoids many OoS Bairs.

But these are just very particular approach methods. Generally I'll just try to play the spacing game and keep myself as safe as possible!

Pierce you spoke about her grabs... you can grab everytime from a dtilt trip, and that character state is likely post-50%. I always have the inclination of depleting their shield with whatever possible and then going in for dtilts to grabs whenever the chance arises. That... or just try to use the move as efficiently as possible when it does finally hit.
_

SH weaving is decent imo - you can trick people into thinking you'll land behind behind but she's got the enough agility to be able to shift it and land back where she started. It's useful in making yourself difficult to track, which is quite important imo.

@Kaylo: remember your sexy poses thread? Can you bring me the Din's Fire shield stun data?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I've found that airdodge weaving is also pretty useful. Zelda's aerial agility is high. She is quickly able to change direction in the air. Her floatiness actually serves her well here, because she can airdodge in and out, to gain spacing, as an approach, and land into dtilt/fsmash. I also like to use a lot of stutter stepped fsmashes + dtilt, and then a random approaching Usmash to break opponents that try to jump over the wall.

I do also feel that Zelda lacks a lot of reliable tools, but she's a little bit safer than I realized between her very rewarding Fsmash and her dtilt. She reminds me a lot of Lucario in some aspects. Too bad she doesn't have that roll, lmao.

Can you explain what you mean by Zelda's lack of tools I've feel as though she has very good tools and options.

 

[KayLo!]

@Kaylo: remember your sexy poses thread? Can you bring me the Din's Fire shield stun data?

Ohhhh my god, I'm so confused right now. @.@ I'm almost positive I posted it, but I can't find it in the Sexy Poses! thread or the GFF (where I posted all the info once I moved on to a different move).

Can you do me a favor and look at all the past edits for the Sexy Poses! OP? Dunno if it'd be in the past edits for the new OP or the post of mine that you copied.

This is crazy.... the info just disappeared, but I clearly remember doing it.

EDIT: I even checked my memory stick, and it's just.... not here. x.x

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah me too lol which is why I asked in case I was going crazy haha!

I checked the posts in the GFF and it doesn't to seem to be posted in there either. Maybe it was put onto one side. It's no biggie... I just wanted to know the stats behind its stun.

 

[KayLo!]

Nevermind, I got it. Turns out I can view edit history for my own posts...... mod powers to the rescue, lol.

Move #4: Side Special - Din's Fire

Frame Data:

GENERAL
Startup: 1-(F-1)
Hitbox: 2 frames
*First hitbox frame (F) can be anywhere between (and including) frames 31 and 79/83. See note under "Additional Information."
Cooldown: 24 frames, beginning on frame F+2
*Cooldown may be 31 frames. See note under "Additional Information."

SHORTEST DISTANCE
Startup: 1-30
Hitbox: 31-32
Cooldown: 33-56

LONGEST DISTANCE (1)
Startup: 1-78
Hitbox: 79-80
Cooldown: 81-111

OR

LONGEST DISTANCE (2)
Startup: 1-82
Hitbox: 83-84
Cooldown: 85-108

Max Damage: 8%/17% (fresh), 3-4%/7-8% (stalest)
*Does more damage at greater distances

Changes hurtbox?: Moderately
Net Movement: None
Type: 3D, Single Hit

Hitlag: 0 frames (Zelda only, all distances)
Shield Hitlag: 0 frames (Zelda only, all distances)
Shield Stun: 10-16 frames
*More shield stun at greater distances
Shield Push: Minimal-Large
*More shield push at greater distances
Shield Disadvantage: -9
*Tested fresh on Mario @ 0%, first hitbox frame, shortest distance unless otherwise noted
*Perfect shielding eliminates shield stun/push & normal shield drop frames.

# of hitboxes: 1
*Opponent is sent ~45 degrees away from Zelda (diagonally away/upwards).

Knockback Information (taken directly from the Great Fairy Fountain research thread):

None.

Additional Information:

Fireball disappears (a.k.a. turns into flame puff) on frame X.
Hitbox appears on frame X+5 or frame X+9. (See note below.)

Let go of B button on frame Y.
Hitbox appears on frame Y+8 with one exception. (See note below.)

NOTE ON MAX DISTANCE DIN'S:

At maximum distance, there are two possible methods of detonating Din's.

If the B button is held until ~a few frames before the hitbox's appearance, the hitbox will appear on frame 79, and Zelda will suffer 31 frames of cooldown lag.

However, if the B button is released well before the hitbox's appearance, the hitbox will appear on frame 83, and Zelda will suffer only 24 frames of cooldown lag. (This follows the normal frame pattern of less charged fireballs.)

Approx. Max Range:

BOOM! GOES THE FIREBALL! ​

If anything needs correction or clarification, please let me know. Let's discuss!

 

[zeldspazz]

As ****ty as that move is, its so pretty and has some huge *** range.

 

[Kataefi]

Cool! I'll transfer it to the stickies sometime tonight before I forget. I was just curious about it that's all

 

[-Mars-]

Pierce the thing with usmash is that it's incredibly unsafe on whiff or even on block. Also has very little horizontal range which means using it as a spacing tool is mediocre.

The fact that one of her best moves is so laggy is one of her main detriments in my opinion.

Zelda gimmicks can work against inexperienced players, but after players are accustomed to the matchup it becomes really easy for most characters to simply shut down the majority of her game.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Pierce the thing with usmash is that it's incredibly unsafe on whiff or even on block. Also has very little horizontal range which means using it as a spacing tool is mediocre.

The fact that one of her best moves is so laggy is one of her main detriments in my opinion.

Zelda gimmicks can work against inexperienced players, but after players are accustomed to the matchup it becomes really easy for most characters to simply shut down the majority of her game.

Doubtful if you're getting shut down it's mainly due to the Zelda player not switching it up enough and not the fault of Zelda barring playing against like Snake.

 

[ImaBEA5T]

so i may sound like a noob right now, but 2 questions
1) Do you need to know FPS on moves to compete against really good players?
2) how do you count frames?

 

[zeldspazz]

1 frame = 1/60th of a second iirc.

 

[-Mars-]

Doubtful if you're getting shut down it's mainly due to the Zelda player not switching it up enough and not the fault of Zelda barring playing against like Snake.

Are you talking about offline or online?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Zelda is realistically the 2nd worst character in this game, better only than Ganondorf.

Her approach is waaaaaay too limited and unable to force mistakes or pressure. And her recovery is simply godawful and ridiculously punishable, which makes this fundamentally defensive character very easily killed (and this isn't even counting those few top tier matchups that don't give a **** about her walls and kill her right through them). Her dashgrab is dodgeable on reaction, and she really really can't challenge good vertical spacing.

idk why you think Link is worse personally, since Link is a character who actually has solid safe zoning and pressure options, and he has more versatile trap options, and generally he survives longer than Zelda, but I guess I'll wait for you to prove me wrong otherwise.

 

[Pierce7d]

Pierce the thing with usmash is that it's incredibly unsafe on whiff or even on block. Also has very little horizontal range which means using it as a spacing tool is mediocre.

The fact that one of her best moves is so laggy is one of her main detriments in my opinion.

Zelda gimmicks can work against inexperienced players, but after players are accustomed to the matchup it becomes really easy for most characters to simply shut down the majority of her game.

This is true for a lot of good moves, like Fox's Usmash as well. However, contrary to my original belief, Zelda does have safe moves. Fsmash is extremely rewarding and safe, with good range. Dtilt is extremely rewarding, and safe, and FAST. Using Airdodge weaving into dtilt is gdlk.

Doubtful if you're getting shut down it's mainly due to the Zelda player not switching it up enough and not the fault of Zelda barring playing against like Snake.

Eh, not necessarily true. Zelda still loses HARD to characters with fast poking options. Marth, MK, Snake, all shut her down really hard if they know the match-up.

so i may sound like a noob right now, but 2 questions
1) Do you need to know FPS on moves to compete against really good players?
2) how do you count frames?

Motion Pictures, in video games and movies, aren't actually motion, but a bunch of pictures flashing by very quickly, so that it appears to be motion. Brawl, like most modern console games, runs at 60 Frames Per Second (fps).

To count frames generally requires using a hack to run the game in a frame by frame mode. There are other ways, but this is the most common and popular way.

You do not necessarily need to know frame data to win, even against the best of players, so long as you understand the concepts and the results that the frame data implies. You don't necessarily need to know that auto-canceled aerials are -8 (this means, you have 8 frames of lag) on landing, but you need to know what's safe on block and what's not. If a move is safe on block, that means your opponent can shield it without you being punished.

Not knowing your basic frame data DOES severely cripple you at higher levels of play, but you don't need to know all frame data. Generally, people memorize the frame data associated with their main character.

I think Zelda is realistically the 2nd worst character in this game, better only than Ganondorf.

Her approach is waaaaaay too limited and unable to force mistakes or pressure. And her recovery is simply godawful and ridiculously punishable, which makes this fundamentally defensive character very easily killed (and this isn't even counting those few top tier matchups that don't give a **** about her walls and kill her right through them). Her dashgrab is dodgeable on reaction, and she really really can't challenge good vertical spacing.

idk why you think Link is worse personally, since Link is a character who actually has solid safe zoning and pressure options, and he has more versatile trap options, and generally he survives longer than Zelda, but I guess I'll wait for you to prove me wrong otherwise.

These things are mostly only true in theory. You will NOT be able to react to dash grab if she frequently mixes up Dash Attack and Usmash. This was another myth that I was previously fooled by until I played her myself. Dtilt is GDLK shield pressure, and leads into a safe fsmash. Zelda's dsmash is quite possibly the best gtfo move in this game (seriously, that move is so gdlk).

You'll be interested to know that Zelda also gimps Mario pretty well. Her Dair is active extremely long, and you don't have to sweet spot to end Mario's stock by trading with UpB.

Also, Zelda's full hop Nair OOS, or a sweetspotted Fair or Bair is dangerous stuff. That can end a midweight character's stock around 80%, meaning that a very well executed bait or mindgame can reward Zelda for linking Usmashes together, and staling her best kill move.

Zelda is weird, because she works in interesting bursts of speed. The most successfull strategy I've found is just playing extremely patient and defensive, until you breach your opponent's defenses (probably by them going on offense, making an error, getting baited, or a powershield), and then bursting straight into aggro, relying on reads. Normally, trying to land consecutive reads for reward is not seriously worth the risk in Brawl unless you can do so safely. However, Zelda lands massive rewards off reads, and kills early, so aggro burst attack patterns are effective, because you can deal 50+ damage into a stock loss.

As for Din's Fire. I like to fire way past my opponents. It throws off the block timing, and the hitbox grows when it's far away, so they get super surprised when they think I missed, but I really didn't. Many Zeldas try to aim it in front of their opponents, but no one falls for that. I find aiming it past them has been extremely effective, especially if you jump backwards first, and aim vertically awkward.

 

[zeldspazz]

See Perice, I told you she wasnt as bad as you thought ^_^

I think its cool that you played around with her, I respect you for that instead of being closeminded like a lot of people on these boards!

 

[GreyFox86]

Pierce7d, I just wanna ask cause right now im too lazy to see why.

What got you to bring yourself to play Zelda? Not to be rude, but your one of the top Marths in the nation. I just wanna know why is all.

Read the OP and most stuff im really impressed to see that you dipped into the frame stuff.

 

[Kataefi]

Dtilt leads into a lot more than a safe Fsmash =p It's home to a lot of crazy wonderful possibilities. I normally Dtilt to grab on trip, or Dtilt to Dsmash on stun. At kill percents it's Dtilt to Usmash/tilt. On fatties a trip with Dtilt gets the lightning kick.

 

[MrEh]

As for Din's Fire. I like to fire way past my opponents. It throws off the block timing, and the hitbox grows when it's far away, so they get super surprised when they think I missed, but I really didn't. Many Zeldas try to aim it in front of their opponents, but no one falls for that. I find aiming it past them has been extremely effective, especially if you jump backwards first, and aim vertically awkward.

I thought most Zelda players did this.

I think Zelda is realistically the 2nd worst character in this game, better only than Ganondorf

Meet Ivysaur.

Dtilt leads into a lot more than a safe Fsmash =p It's home to a lot of crazy wonderful possibilities. I normally Dtilt to grab on trip, or Dtilt to Dsmash on stun. At kill percents it's Dtilt to Usmash/tilt. On fatties a trip with Dtilt gets the lightning kick.

It has a lot of possibilities, but that's moot when most of them suck. Are they not DIing out? Then Dtilt again. Are they DIing out? Then grab or Dsmash.

Not much variety really.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

A lot of the time I find myself getting completely locked down by character's like Snake and Marth, and the Marth MU is one I particularly enjoy as Zelda (until he begins to use dancing blades.) It doesn't matter sometimes what Zelda can do because a lot of the times, your opponent can dictate to Zelda.

I love to simply be an aggro style Zelda and so I have to get all sorts of creative with my approaches (aerial weaving, shield dashing or dash dancing into something) but when the opponent learns how to fight her then she becomes a little more simplistic. There really just aren't too many options she has that don't rely on mindgames where as other characters can simply react to anything she can dish out. When you sit back and try to be defensive, that's when the camping gets heavy and Zelda doesn't have much for it.

On paper, a lot of her moves are amazing but in practice I've found out that most of them, to me, aren't safe. Everything is really kind of telegraphed by her movement. A local PRed player/friend of mine (RedHalberd) easily shuts me down no matter how hard I try to change things up. Is it because I'm a bad player? I certainly hope not, but since he plays me so much; he knows what Zelda can do and that's the thing to fear. If someone has a good amount of MU knowledge, then there is the possibility of taking a bad beating.

With all this being said, I don't think Zelda has awful MUs (and I just put my flame shield on) but she certainly has the possibility of being shut down more often than not. You just have to be ready to out work your opponent.

TBH, her recovery is not that bad once you learn how to do the Nayru's momentum cancel, but she's still hella vulnerable thanks to all the afterlag.

And this is my two cents for now. She's nowhere near as awful as I make her out to be and metaphorically speaking, is a glass cannon, but unless something gamebreaking is found, she will remain a GLASS cannon.

I still love her to death though!

 

[Darkmusician]

I like the point made on Zelda working in bursts. Gotta be able to change up your rhythm. Know when to be patient and when to capitalize.

lol Ivysaur.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

A lot of the time I find myself getting completely locked down by character's like Snake and Marth, and the Marth MU is one I particularly enjoy as Zelda (until he begins to use dancing blades.) It doesn't matter sometimes what Zelda can do because a lot of the times, your opponent can dictate to Zelda.

Just remember this about DB 1 it hits on frame four and it has transcendent priority. So just dsmash that *****. I think dtilt is more annoying in the Marth MU TBH.

I love to simply be an aggro style Zelda and so I have to get all sorts of creative with my approaches (aerial weaving, shield dashing or dash dancing into something) but when the opponent learns how to fight her then she becomes a little more simplistic. There really just aren't too many options she has that don't rely on mindgames where as other characters can simply react to anything she can dish out. When you sit back and try to be defensive, that's when the camping gets heavy and Zelda doesn't have much for it.

I have disagree with this. I don't think Zelda depends on mindgames. What I feel it takes to be good with Zelda is a deep understanding of Zelda an understanding of your opponents character and then limiting your opponents options. Zelda can camp you just have to be creative with it. Din's fin isn't the best projectile but it can be useful when it comes to camping.

On paper, a lot of her moves are amazing but in practice I've found out that most of them, to me, aren't safe. Everything is really kind of telegraphed by her movement. A local PRed player/friend of mine (RedHalberd) easily shuts me down no matter how hard I try to change things up. Is it because I'm a bad player? I certainly hope not, but since he plays me so much; he knows what Zelda can do and that's the thing to fear. If someone has a good amount of MU knowledge, then there is the possibility of taking a bad beating.

I don't think it's you redhalberd is good really good. Also I don't think it's a matter of MU knowledge because you should know the match up equally as well. Her moves only become telegraphed if you start reducing her options or if you play in certain patterns. For example if you never Din's fire that becomes a move he doesn't have to worry about. Dashing cuts off a lot of her options also. Then there's other stuff to keep in mind but you more than likely know this stuff already.

With all this being said, I don't think Zelda has awful MUs (and I just put my flame shield on) but she certainly has the possibility of being shut down more often than not. You just have to be ready to out work your opponent.

I don't think Zelda match ups are as bad as everyone says. Outside of snake I don't think there's a lot of characters that can shut her down maybe olimar but I really don't have enough EXP to say either way.

TBH, her recovery is not that bad once you learn how to do the Nayru's momentum cancel, but she's still hella vulnerable thanks to all the afterlag.

I've been trying to use this more and more. When I suggested using the momentum cancel in my thread I got flamed to holy hell but I guess it was just because of me post. I'm pretty sure I can ask someone how was their day on these boards and get flamed to holy hell. Everyone says something about the lag but how many characters can follow Zela that far out there to punish her ?

And this is my two cents for now. She's nowhere near as awful as I make her out to be and metaphorically speaking, is a glass cannon, but unless something gamebreaking is found, she will remain a GLASS cannon.

I still love her to death though!

That sounds like a pretty good analogy.

 

[Pierce7d]

See Pierce, I told you she wasnt as bad as you thought ^_^

I think its cool that you played around with her, I respect you for that instead of being closeminded like a lot of people on these boards!

Fixed. And Thank you. I try to be as good, and as knowledgeable as I can be, and that means getting hands on experience, and not just relying on my theory craft.

Pierce7d, I just wanna ask cause right now im too lazy to see why.

What got you to bring yourself to play Zelda? Not to be rude, but your one of the top Marths in the nation. I just wanna know why is all.

Read the OP and most stuff im really impressed to see that you dipped into the frame stuff.

Haha, I'm still a regular person just like you. I go to high school, I talk to girls, and I play other characters for fun. It's not just "Marth, Marth, Marth" all day every day. I enjoy playing Zelda, as well as MK, Snake, Falco, Mario, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Ike, D3, Link, etc. I can probably play a few others. I think I've gotten to the point where I know what a characters supposed to do, so it only takes me a few matches to pick them up and play at a basic level.

Dtilt leads into a lot more than a safe Fsmash =p It's home to a lot of crazy wonderful possibilities. I normally Dtilt to grab on trip, or Dtilt to Dsmash on stun. At kill percents it's Dtilt to Usmash/tilt. On fatties a trip with Dtilt gets the lightning kick.

Interesting, although you misunderstood me. I meant that on a shield, dtilt leads to a safe fsmash on shield. This deals a lot of shield damage.

I thought most Zelda players did this.

Perhaps. Ryko showed me some of Dark Musician's vids from way back in the day, and I used to watch Ninjalink's Zelda a little. For the most part, I don't really watch other Zelda's, so pretty much everything I've done with her is improvised off my own learning. This could be good because if I release videos, it's more original stuff that you can add to your game, and less copied stuff that everyone else is doing. Still, it's possible that we figured out a lot of the same stuff. In fact, likely.

Meet Ivysaur.

Ivysuar is not a selectable character to play individually, and isn't on the Tier List.

It has a lot of possibilities, but that's moot when most of them suck. Are they not DIing out? Then Dtilt again. Are they DIing out? Then grab or Dsmash.

Not much variety really.

I disagree. If you aren't using all your mix-ups after Dtilt, you're doing it wrong. Also, Ivysaur isn't an individual character, ranked on the tier list.

Since your post was a multiquote, I responded inside the quote. Responses in bold.

A lot of the time I find myself getting completely locked down by character's like Snake and Marth, and the Marth MU is one I particularly enjoy as Zelda (until he begins to use dancing blades.) It doesn't matter sometimes what Zelda can do because a lot of the times, your opponent can dictate to Zelda.

I love to simply be an aggro style Zelda and so I have to get all sorts of creative with my approaches (aerial weaving, shield dashing or dash dancing into something) but when the opponent learns how to fight her then she becomes a little more simplistic. There really just aren't too many options she has that don't rely on mindgames where as other characters can simply react to anything she can dish out. When you sit back and try to be defensive, that's when the camping gets heavy and Zelda doesn't have much for it.

On paper, a lot of her moves are amazing but in practice I've found out that most of them, to me, aren't safe. Everything is really kind of telegraphed by her movement. A local PRed player/friend of mine (RedHalberd) easily shuts me down no matter how hard I try to change things up. Is it because I'm a bad player? I certainly hope not, but since he plays me so much; he knows what Zelda can do and that's the thing to fear. If someone has a good amount of MU knowledge, then there is the possibility of taking a bad beating.

With all this being said, I don't think Zelda has awful MUs (and I just put my flame shield on) but she certainly has the possibility of being shut down more often than not. You just have to be ready to out work your opponent.

TBH, her recovery is not that bad once you learn how to do the Nayru's momentum cancel, but she's still hella vulnerable thanks to all the afterlag.

And this is my two cents for now. She's nowhere near as awful as I make her out to be and metaphorically speaking, is a glass cannon, but unless something gamebreaking is found, she will remain a GLASS cannon.

I still love her to death though!

I have yet to master the NL MC. It's B-reversed, right? Also, she is a glass cannon. The problem is positioning her to fire. At least GnW has pokes, range and priority in the air. She has pokes, range, and priorty, but she's all ground based.

I like the point made on Zelda working in bursts. Gotta be able to change up your rhythm. Know when to be patient and when to capitalize.

lol Ivysaur.

Yeah, lol. Being predictable with Zelda just leads into massive punishment.

Just remember this about DB 1 it hits on frame four and it has transcendent priority. So just dsmash that *****. I think dtilt is more annoying in the Marth MU TBH.

No. Dancing Blade has a lot of range, and can be used out of a dash. You cannot compare it to a move like Dsmash, unless you're going to try and dsmash people's approaches. Against Dancing Blade, Dsmash will lose.

I have disagree with this. I don't think Zelda depends on mindgames. What I feel it takes to be good with Zelda is a deep understanding of Zelda an understanding of your opponents character and then limiting your opponents options. Zelda can camp you just have to be creative with it. Din's fin isn't the best projectile but it can be useful when it comes to camping.

I disagree. You're not simply going to wall your opponent out with only ground moves. Even if her ground pokes and walls are amazing, mobile, jumping characters can easily get in. I think Ike is a bad MU for Zelda. Because she lacks the option to move and to attack simultaneously, she's not going to be limiting a lot of options. However, she hits very hard, so she's able to get the most when you capitalize on good reads. For these reasons, I think Zelda is mostly about mindgames.

I don't think it's you redhalberd is good really good. Also I don't think it's a matter of MU knowledge because you should know the match up equally as well. Her moves only become telegraphed if you start reducing her options or if you play in certain patterns. For example if you never Din's fire that becomes a move he doesn't have to worry about. Dashing cuts off a lot of her options also. Then there's other stuff to keep in mind but you more than likely know this stuff already.

I'll add onto this. Most times, when you play against someone a lot, you learn each other's habits, and lock into a pattern. Breaking this can be very hard. What you should do, is instead of simply thinking, "Wow, he knows my style. How can I mix it up?" instead try and focus on, "Okay, we've done this a million times. I know what he's going to do in most situations. Now how can I choose options in situations I normally lose, and make different options that beat his common options, so I can start winning those scenarios.

For example, if you know he likes to jump after you Dtilt his shield twice, and he fairs your shield and starts pressure, dtilting once, and then running Usmash. It seems unsafe, and it is unsafe on shield, but since he's primed to jump at this moment, he's likely to react in a way that's not shield. If he stays in shield after you try this once or twice, then start grabbing, since it beats shield. If he spot-dodges, then Usmash is the trick.

While staying safe and not getting hit is good, you need opportunities to fire that cannon, so you're going to have to take a few risks. Zelda's reward is massive, so it's worth it. A Zelda that takes no risks will fail in the end.

I don't think Zelda match ups are as bad as everyone says. Outside of snake I don't think there's a lot of characters that can shut her down maybe olimar but I really don't have enough EXP to say either way.

No. Characters with really long ground pokes (as long as they aren't so fat Zelda just picks on them once she gets in, or characters with great air pokes and approaches can shut down Zelda. Marth, MK, Snake all hurt really bad. Nothing is impossible, especially with a reading based character like Zelda, and I have beaten all of those characters with Zelda, but THEY ARE bad match-ups.

 

[GreyFox86]

Haha, I'm still a regular person just like you. I go to high school, I talk to girls, and I play other characters for fun. It's not just "Marth, Marth, Marth" all day every day. I enjoy playing Zelda, as well as MK, Snake, Falco, Mario, Sheik, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Ike, D3, Link, etc. I can probably play a few others. I think I've gotten to the point where I know what a characters supposed to do, so it only takes me a few matches to pick them up and play at a basic level.

Lol, I like this post very much. I just thought you were always Marth but everyone can play everyone for fun. :D I play Marth myself for fun.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

No. Characters with really long ground pokes (as long as they aren't so fat Zelda just picks on them once she gets in, or characters with great air pokes and approaches can shut down Zelda. Marth, MK, Snake all hurt really bad. Nothing is impossible, especially with a reading based character like Zelda, and I have beaten all of those characters with Zelda, but THEY ARE bad match-ups.

I don't think Marth is a bad match up Snake and MK are bad match ups though. Pierc7ed using DB out of a dash unless you're going to punish is typically a bad idea hell dashing with Marth is bad at least thats what you taught me.

 

[Darkmusician]

Yea Pierce, NLs Zelda is pretty beast. I just do stuff and it happens to work. lol

It's good that you've developed your own unique style through trial and error. Pretty much what I did. You're a much better player than I and you live in an area with good competition so I think being self taught will work out well for you.

 

[Pierce7d]

I don't think Marth is a bad match up Snake and MK are bad match ups though. Pierc7ed using DB out of a dash unless you're going to punish is typically a bad idea hell dashing with Marth is bad at least thats what you taught me.

Dashing FREQUENTLY @ MK is bad. Dashing is not altogether bad. Same as with everything else, mix-ups.

Also, DB1 is relatively safe. Even though the next action has some degree of delay, DB2 threatens your opponent to stay in shield, which lets you Grab or Dtilt.

But anyway, this is a Zelda thread. Perhaps we can talk more about Marth next time I stray to the Marth boards.

Anyway, I see no reason to compare Dark Musician. Your experience with Zelda leads me to believe that your Zelda is probably still more proficient than mine. I've only been using her a couple months.

Fun fact: My little sister mains Zelda, and she never fails to hit me with Sweetspot Fairs or Bairs at the right moment. She also doesn't get caught by airdodge bait and nails me in the chin every time, lmao.

 

[MrEh]

Still, it's possible that we figured out a lot of the same stuff. In fact, likely.

It's Zelda. When you have next to zero options like her, it doesn't surprise me that people figure out the exact same crap with her.

Ivysuar is not a selectable character to play individually, and isn't on the Tier List.

That was more of a joke, much like the character itself. lol

I disagree. If you aren't using all your mix-ups after Dtilt, you're doing it wrong.

What can be better then free damage (dtilt) or better positioning? (grab or dsmash) Unless you're talking about kicks, but those are spacing dependent, character dependent, and reliant on tripping.


EDIT: Tell your sister to try Uairs. They also eat airdodges, but are easier to land due to not needed to sweetspot. The spacing required isn't as precise as kicks either.

 

[Darkmusician]

Anyway, I see no reason to compare Dark Musician. Your experience with Zelda leads me to believe that your Zelda is probably still more proficient than mine. I've only been using her a couple months.

This is true. Best of luck to you in your endeavors with Zelda.