Pessimism and Brawl

[Falconv1.0]

THIS IS NOT A MELEE VS. BRAWL DEBATE

Less than a year after the release of Brawl, we are already questioning if the game has hit it's peak. We constantly berate the game, people winning tourneys are often the ones who call the game terrible, pretty much everyone hates Sakurai by now, etc. It just seems like even people who genuinely like Brawl seem to berate it often, and its faults are being discussed as often as it's Meta Game is. It's about as bad as the disconnect with America's government and it's citizens, with people saying their lives are headed in the right direction but the government is ****ing up. Just like that example, we've seemed to have lost our optimism, we dont get excited when new things are discovered because very little seems to ever be discovered. We just dont have the spirit of "Hey our game is awesome, and it can only get better" anymore.


What I want to know is how many people here still really believe Brawl should exist as a competitive game, and even more importantly, would there have ever been a large competitive scene for Brawl if Melee didn't exist.

Discuss away, I really don't know what to say besides the fact that I do like Brawl, but if we have seriously reached its peak, I'm out.


(BTW, Just a side note, but people with some serious Melee experience commenting here would be great, but I swear to God if this turns into a Brawl vs Melee debate I will rip your nuts off.)

 

[GofG]

This thread deserves to stay open and not get locked even though it will probably very quickly degenerate into a melee vs brawl debate. Mods, please. Don't lock. Edit to come.

Edit: Sorry, had to get first reply.



The sole reason that Brawl is being played competitively is because of Melee. If it weren't for Melee, then Brawl would have had to create it's own userbase; a userbase that would not have hung around long enough to play it competitively.

 

[DanGR]

Pessimism and Brawl? It's more like Pessimism= Brawl.

I hope this game gets enough attention for another one to come out later. That's pretty much the only reason I'm still playing. Brawl's competitive scene is gross.

 

[bobson]

I think it's mainly a communal thing. Someone started saying Brawl sucked competitively, and sooner or later it became "accepted" that Brawl sucked competitively. Brawl's undoubtedly less competitive than its predecessor or other "hardcore" fighters, but it's certainly not completely non-viable as a competitive game as many make it out to be; if it was, we wouldn't be seeing the higher-level players coming out on top consistently.

 

[Foxy]

Brawl is actually a good fighter (though unconventional) compared to others played at tournament level. It is pretty ridiculously easy to learn but it has a higher potential for mindgames (compared to traditional fighter, not to Melee) due to the more free-form combat.

Verdict? Were Melee not so amazing, we'd probably think Brawl was decent, and it would still be successful (though Melee certainly jumpstarted Brawl's tournament scene).

jk melee > brawl

 

[Falconv1.0]

Note I will constantly monitor this thread, all Melee vs. Brawl whiners will be reported. HOWEVER, if you dislike Brawl, you can say it without reminding us how amazing Melee is.


Some people lie Brawl because it's a Smash game, people seemed to really like Melee because it was like a deep fighting game, with combos, speed etc. With Brawl, these things were taken out, and the community that made Melee so great, who had learned those combos and AT's, were severely disappointed because of the system changes.


BTW, Azen has stated he likes the game more, and Chillen has said in the past that he's moved on to Brawl because he wants something new, I'd like to hear some true reasons why they like Brawl.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5022100&postcount=103

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=5022615&postcount=107

For reference.

 

[Sliq]

The fact of the matter is that Melee was great, and Brawl comes out and is not only not better, it is ARGUABLY not as good as Melee (from a competitive standpoint). What happens is, someone says, "I don't like Brawl in comparison to Melee; Melee is better, let's play that instead." Then someone who is new and never played Melee competitively is completely outraged and can't possibly fathom that this is the truth, despite being completely in the dark about what's actually being said.

Furthermore, a lot of people are so ingrained with Melee that when the cool stuff was gone (l-cancel, dash dance, wave dash), they felt betrayed, and decided subconsciously to not give Brawl a chance. They "played" it to try it, and didn't stick with it because they wanted it to fail, on the grounds that the creator just **** all over us and the thing we love, you know, just because.

As of right now, I can't imagine anyone who played Melee competitively and was a major player (not necessarily good, but you'd be ****ed to go to a tournament and not see them) that would argue that Brawl is better. What you do have is a bunch of people that didn't ever play Melee competitively, or someone that barely did, saying that Brawl is better with basically no basis. Not only is this stupid, it is also VERY annoying.

Imagine you were a professional painter, and you finished a painting that you loved, something you were proud of. Then some McDonalds fryer comes up and says, "You should have used more blue there." They don't know **** about art, painting, contrast, hue, any of that bull****, and you just get very annoyed. You create something, and get pumped to show it to someone, and all they do is point out a very minor flaw. It is ****ing annoying.

So you could make the argument that people dislike Brawl because they associate Brawl with the wave a *******es they now have to try to tolerate and put up with, and stupid can only be handled for so long before you want to kill yourself and everyone around you.

Also, tripping.

 

[Foxy]

The fact of the matter is that Melee was great, and Brawl comes out and is not only not better, it is ARGUABLY not as good as Melee (from a competitive standpoint). What happens is, someone says, "I don't like Brawl in comparison to Melee; Melee is better, let's play that instead." Then someone who is new and never played Melee competitively is completely outraged and can't possibly fathom that this is the truth, despite being completely in the dark about what's actually being said.

Furthermore, a lot of people are so ingrained with Melee that when the cool stuff was gone (l-cancel, dash dance, wave dash), they felt betrayed, and decided subconsciously to not give Brawl a chance. They "played" it to try it, and didn't stick with it because they wanted it to fail, on the grounds that the creator just **** all over us and the thing we love, you know, just because.

As of right now, I can't imagine anyone who played Melee competitively and was a major player (not necessarily good, but you'd be ****ed to go to a tournament and not see them) that would argue that Brawl is better. What you do have is a bunch of people that didn't ever play Melee competitively, or someone that barely did, saying that Brawl is better with basically no basis. Not only is this stupid, it is also VERY annoying.

Imagine you were a professional painter, and you finished a painting that you loved, something you were proud of. Then some McDonalds fryer comes up and says, "You should have used more blue there." They don't know **** about art, painting, contrast, hue, any of that bull****, and you just get very annoyed. You create something, and get pumped to show it to someone, and all they do is point out a very minor flaw. It is ****ing annoying.

So you could make the argument that people dislike Brawl because they associate Brawl with the wave a *******es they now have to try to tolerate and put up with, and stupid can only be handled for so long before you want to kill yourself and everyone around you.

Also, tripping.

yes

10yesyes

 

[Vyse]

1. FAST got it right. At the very least, Brawl can be seen as the game that will keep smash alive in a way, and possibly extend the life of Melee. (Read the thread anyhow, you'll see what I mean).
2. Why is this in tactical discusssion?

 

[Falconv1.0]

2. Why is this in tactical discusssion?

Because General Discussion is terrible. I'm talking about the furthering of the game, have we reached our peak, could the game survive competitively if Melee had never existed, **** I think deserves to be in the Tactical Discussion.

 

[Deathcarter]

Brawl's undoubtedly less competitive than its predecessor or other "hardcore" fighters, but it's certainly not completely non-viable as a competitive game as many make it out to be; if it was, we wouldn't be seeing the higher-level players coming out on top consistently.

This post sums up what I think about Brawl. It is competetive in the sense that the more skilled player will usually win when the skill level gap is noticable. In that sense, it is competetive.

But IMO, the two biggest problems are character balance (which is not beyond horrible when you don't factor in Captain Falcon/Ganondorf vs top 15 characters)where some matchups are beyond stupid simply because of a technical oversight (Grab Release, DDD infinites) and sometimes forces you to pick up a secondary.

The second is that the game is TOO simple; most of how a character (that does not have an insane learning curve by Brawl's standerds) is played in high level play comes from the player. Every other fighter has at least massive character depth and/or technical depth which leave a high peak of skill. Brawl, at least visually, looks too simple.

Although, to be honest, the transition from Melee to Brawl saw a massive decrease in technical depth. That was probably the primary factor of the disdain for Brawl (along with all of those annoying debates).

 

[Vyse]

Fair enough FalconV1.0
I'll agree that it's, well, the place we don't like to talk about.

 

[ph00tbag]

The fact of the matter is that Melee was great, and Brawl comes out and is not only not better, it is ARGUABLY not as good as Melee (from a competitive standpoint). What happens is, someone says, "I don't like Brawl in comparison to Melee; Melee is better, let's play that instead." Then someone who is new and never played Melee competitively is completely outraged and can't possibly fathom that this is the truth, despite being completely in the dark about what's actually being said.

Furthermore, a lot of people are so ingrained with Melee that when the cool stuff was gone (l-cancel, dash dance, wave dash), they felt betrayed, and decided subconsciously to not give Brawl a chance. They "played" it to try it, and didn't stick with it because they wanted it to fail, on the grounds that the creator just **** all over us and the thing we love, you know, just because.

As of right now, I can't imagine anyone who played Melee competitively and was a major player (not necessarily good, but you'd be ****ed to go to a tournament and not see them) that would argue that Brawl is better. What you do have is a bunch of people that didn't ever play Melee competitively, or someone that barely did, saying that Brawl is better with basically no basis. Not only is this stupid, it is also VERY annoying.

Imagine you were a professional painter, and you finished a painting that you loved, something you were proud of. Then some McDonalds fryer comes up and says, "You should have used more blue there." They don't know **** about art, painting, contrast, hue, any of that bull****, and you just get very annoyed. You create something, and get pumped to show it to someone, and all they do is point out a very minor flaw. It is ****ing annoying.

So you could make the argument that people dislike Brawl because they associate Brawl with the wave a *******es they now have to try to tolerate and put up with, and stupid can only be handled for so long before you want to kill yourself and everyone around you.

Also, tripping.

Pretty much this. I think Melee is better, but the truth is, once I whipped out the no tripping code, I found that I actually love Brawl, and I love most of the characters (save Metaknight). It's a competitive title, despite initial opinions to the contrary, and I think it can still go places if enough people seek to send it there.

Frankly, the people who doubt this don't really know much about competitive gaming. They kind of got spoiled with Melee. But a game doesn't have to be on the level of GG, MvC2 or Melee to be a competitive title. Those games are rare examples of highly technical, deep games, but if only games of that caliber could be termed competitive, we'd all be in a lot of trouble, because not many games get to that point.

 

[Pubik Vengeance]

I think it's mainly a communal thing. Someone started saying Brawl sucked competitively, and sooner or later it became "accepted" that Brawl sucked competitively. Brawl's undoubtedly less competitive than its predecessor or other "hardcore" fighters, but it's certainly not completely non-viable as a competitive game as many make it out to be; if it was, we wouldn't be seeing the higher-level players coming out on top consistently.

Gimpyfish, Yuna. No, no I kid, please don't flame me! The truth of the matter is Brawl isn't as deep as Melee, yet I still like it more, and that is because I only mildly played Melee competitively with a friend of mine who taught me a few techniques, and that was not long before Brawl came out so I thought, "I want in on this, but I'll just wait for the sequel."

If I played Melee as hardcore as I have bee playing Brawl, I know I would like it leagues better.

Anyway, maybe I'll get into SFIV if I can't get into Brawl as much as I am wanting. I have always liked fighters but the last one I played to be competitive was VF5, and that has much too small a community. It is probably the most competitive fighter out there though, so I don't know why.

 

[Matador]

2. Why is this in tactical discusssion?

I suppose a pessimistic state of mind is holding the community back from discovering new techs and strategies as eagerly as we were for Melee. It could also be simply because it wouldn't be taken as seriously in general discussion.

I believe this blanket mindset came from the letdown that Brawl seems like after the mounds of hype prior to its release. Wifi was a disappointment, low hitstun eliminated combos which were a big part of melee, and random occurences like tripping just feel like Sakurai did this purposely.

I also believe, however, that this is just a different game. Brawl seems to be less about combos and more about reading your opponent and constant RPS games. Some like this more, and some would rather have the old game. And if you think about it, Brawl is still new, and still has much time to show what it really has to offer. Right now, there's just not much here but MK and Snake overwhelming tourney results and more characters with infinites. I say time will tell if this pessimism is really warranted.

 

[GofG]

I suppose a pessimistic state of mind is holding the community back from discovering new techs and strategies as eagerly as we were for Melee. It could also be simply because it wouldn't be taken as seriously in general discussion.

I think Brawl's physics engine is holding the community back from discovering new techs and strategies.

I also believe, however, that this is just a different game. Brawl seems to be less about combos and more about reading your opponent and constant RPS games. Some like this more, and some would rather have the old game. And if you think about it, Brawl is still new, and still has much time to show what it really has to offer. Right now, there's just not much here but MK and Snake overwhelming tourney results and more characters with infinites. I say time will tell if this pessimism is really warranted.

Melee had just as much reading your opponent, variety, and RPS games as brawl does; it's just that you didn't get into that until you were at high levels of play. With Brawl, the tech skill gap is nonexistent, so you immediately dive into that; hence, it would appear to new players who never got to that level in Melee that it didn't exist, but does in Brawl.

 

[Matador]

Melee had just as much reading your opponent, variety, and RPS games as brawl does; it's just that you didn't get into that until you were at high levels of play. With Brawl, the tech skill gap is nonexistent, so you immediately dive into that; hence, it would appear to new players who never got to that level in Melee that it didn't exist, but does in Brawl.

Indeed, it exists in both. It's just that punishment was much heavier in melee as a reward for guessing correctly. Further, you were also rewarded for having excellent tech skill because you'd be able to deliver even more punishment more consistently than one with less tech skill.

Therefore, these RPS games are more frequent in Brawl since the greatest punishment is delivered through guessing correctly multiple times and reacting accordingly as opposed to guessing correctly once and scoring a Ken combo or Falco pillar. Since you cannot reliably combo in Brawl, you read your opponent correctly, land your attack or grab, then it resumes neutral position.

 

[GofG]

The thing about RPS is that a RNG will win 50% of the time, no matter what.

The extreme technical depth in Melee made the skill gap huge, and prediction and mindgames only mattered if the opponents were evenly matched. This means that the player who should win, will win more in Melee, than in Brawl, because the skill gap in Brawl is miniscule compared to melee.

 

[Matador]

The thing about RPS is that a RNG will win 50% of the time, no matter what.

The extreme technical depth in Melee made the skill gap huge, and prediction and mindgames only mattered if the opponents were evenly matched. This means that the player who should win, will win more in Melee, than in Brawl, because the skill gap in Brawl is miniscule compared to melee.

I completely agree, which is why I, among other reasons, believe that this pessimism is so prevalent throughout the community. I just think that we should give Brawl a little more time to develop before we can speak of it reaching its peak or being a letdown. It simply just wasn't what we expected. Not good or bad.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

One big factor I notice is that brawl has a lot more "brick walls" than melee, and even more, the brick walls are much easier to perform. Melee did have a few, of course. Consider these tactics:

Using Falco and spamming short hop lasers while constantly running away.

Using Peach and having 90%+ of your moves be a down smash.

Using Marth and spamming Counter.

Using Roy and spamming Counter.

Using Luigi and spamming attacks out of wavedash.

None of these tactics actually work at a high level... but low level players are extremely likely to lose to them. The first and last are also pretty technical brick walls (and the hardest brick walls to get past!) so they only tend to be accessible to the higher level players who also are going to know how to handle them (hopefully). The third and fourth are actually quite easy to counter (savor the pun!), but I mention them because people who suck at melee were frequently stopped dead by that. The second is also a strategic inclusion... notice which move in melee is the most frequently whined about? I don't think anyone is even going to say it is the best move; it's just the most "obviously broken" move... aka the most effective brick wall that requires little technical skill to perform.

Brawl has a lot of "Peach down smashes" in the sense that a lot of simple tactics are really hard to defeat if you don't know what you are doing but very easy to perform. Just consider:

Meta Knight spamming Mach Tornado

Mr. Game & Watch spamming his turtle (back aerial)

Pit spamming his arrows and running away a lot

Snake shieldcamping with his grenades

Marth spamming Dancing Blade

Mr. Game & Watch being generally abusive with his down throw

Wario spamming the Bite when you are playing as Sonic

Absolutely none of these tactics is unstoppable or even particularly deadly... but they are all "Peach down smashes" in the sense that it takes a pretty decent level of skill to overcome them while they are technically very non-demanding. In fact, I bet almost everyone reading this has been defeated by at least one of these tactics before... probably more than one. Don't you guys remember how Pit was "top tier" the week the game came out? Of course, we have many threads on these forums that detail the myriad of ways you can counter the Mach Tornado, and Mr. Game & Watch's PETA offending turtle abuse is stoppable with a firm grasp of spacing and timing (it is always a good approach for Mr. Game & Watch, but a good player does force him to use his other moves). Mr. Game & Watch's down throw can be teched to avoid ever eating a smash out of it... but it seems most players either don't realize it or simply can't do it. Dancing Blade is definitely punishable... it's just hard (exactly like Peach's down smash really). Snake's grenade camping is probably the hardest of them all, but my troubles in dealing with it have convinced me that any character can overcome such a tactic if they both space well and know the timers on the grenades as well as the Snake does (it's not hidden knowledge; it's just that the Snake tends to pay more attention). The last one, of course, gets to a different point. A lot of "brick walls" are character specific, and finding help for them is likely to be hard, especially if you play an unpopular character (such as Sonic!). Even with the internet as your tool, it's all too easy to believe that some of these tactics are actually just plain insurmountable.

Metagame wise, it means that brawl more than melee for most people has a point in the middle of the transition toward being a legitimately good player where the game is just plain unenjoyable. You are losing, you know just why you are losing (or you think you do), and you (think that you) can't do anything about it. I can't claim to have seen the peak of brawl (no one has), and I can't even claim to be at the current peak of it. However, I can say with certainty that I can definitely see the valley that 90% of people who complain about brawl seem to be stuck in (the other 10% have a wide variety of complicated reasons for disliking brawl). I somewhat avoided it by being "naturally talented" at brawl (among everyone I knew, including people who easily and consistently thrashed me in melee, I was far and away the best at brawl right after its release), and I was more often the one creating brick walls instead of falling into them. Of course, it somewhat helps that I legitimately get a really big kick out of beating someone with a brick wall strategy that requires no real gameplay!

The point of this is that there's nothing wrong with brawl, but brawl just makes it very easy to fall into a trap. Losing to a brick wall is very discouraging, and when everyone else is discouraged and that one voice says it isn't the player's fault but the game's, it is very easy for that one voice to become a chorus of complaint (the fact that the first "hidden mechanic" discovered was tripping did not help!). That's where we are now, and it's where we are likely to be for a while. We can only hope the fact that the same small number of players win consistently despite it all should, as evidence, overwhelm the complaints with the truth that there is something very right with brawl as a competitive game. I am personally quite optimistic about the potential of brawl as a competitive game; my only fear is that most people won't get past their personal brick walls to see what the game really is.

 

[Grunt]

Using Falco and spamming short hop lasers while constantly running away....
...None of these tactics actually work at a high level.

Well actually...

 

[KernelColonel]

Just...consider Brawl in a vacuum. Had its predecessor not existed, what would you make of the competetive scene as a whole?

The game is fun, well-paced, addicting, and the skill gap exists (with no strings attached) as the better player wins. Think about it, if Brawl had like, tripping AND like three kinds of completely-random-movement-affecting dumb ****, then it'd be as competetively valuable as Mario Party.

I think people are forcing Brawl. Unneccesarily, too. They think Brawl is inadequate, so they deny it and spite themselves by playing a game they think that they think sucks balls!

When you think of Brawl by itself, yeah, it's a very worthy game. People would gasp in awe at the fact that you can dash and then quickly dash the other direction, negating your previous momentum (dash-dancing). Then people would trip balls the first time they ever discovered hyphen-smashing, or something like that.

What is bringing Brawl down is Melee. I guess it's like, giving you yogurt and then giving you fat-free yogurt. You'd normally like the taste but it's no normal yogurt. Sakurai released these games in the wrong order dammit!

(OMG imagine a wavedashing ROB!)

 

[Wildfire393]

If the question is "Is the Brawl Scene overly pessimistic", the answer is a resounding "yes". The thing that really gets me is that all of the pessimism seems generally unwarranted. Let's take a look at our most common complaints:

1) Brawl is not as technical as Melee, due to the removal of Wavedashing and L-canceling (amongst other things). Rebuttal: There are numerous character-specific ATs for most of the characters with a varying range of difficulty and usefulness. Depending on who you play, you could be doing more technical things than in Melee. Example: Lucas's Zap Jumping and Magnet pull are fairly vital to his recovery, B-sticking is an almost necessary part of his meta.

2) Brawl has "serious oversight" chaingrabs and release grabs, like Dedede's Infinite Grab and Marth's release grab on the Mother boys. Rebuttal: Melee's metagame was practically defined by chaingrabs. Sheik was high tier because she could chaingrab most of the cast, and the bottom tier was basically a list of the most brutal of these chaingrabbees. Of the twelve characters in the top three ("playable") tiers, nine of them have some form of chaingrab (Fox, Sheik, Marth, Peach, Falcon, ICs, Mario, Doc Mario, Ganon), many of them 0-death.
And there has been progress. Many supposed infinite grabs and locks in Brawl have been found to be escapable through proper DI or other techniques. Even Marth's release grab is supposedly not 100% inescapable, or so I have read.

3) Brawl is "too campy" and has far too many projectiles. Rebuttal: I'm sure it has something to do with the people I play with, but I haven't found this to be the case. In any case, even the best of projectile spamming can be countered by the excellent defensive options in this game. Also, Melee Falco SHL much?

4) Brawl's hitstun makes combos nearly impossible, thus detracting from the potential of the game. Rebuttal: depending on who you play, combos are still very possible. It just requires a better sense of how your opponent is DI'ing and when they are going to airdodge. If anything, this adds another dimension of mind-gaming into the game.
Besides, getting comboed from 0-death isn't really fun. I defy anyone to tell me it is (besides the "WHOAH" factor of seeing a combo for the first time)

5) Brawl is too defensive. Sort of a corrolary to my third point. And again, I haven't seen this overly much with my playgroup. Rebuttal: I think that this really has more to do with the mindset of the players than how Brawl works. Yes, shielding is less punishable and easier to grab with than in Melee. But an aggressive, grab-heavy game can counteract this, and HARD. It's just a matter of adjusting your playstyle to fit the situation. I find the easier defensiveness of Brawl makes it easier for playskill to show through. The better player isn't the one who can pull of their cookiecutter 0-death combo first, but rather, the player who best follows the advice of the pros: "don't get hit".

6) Stale move negation is dumb. Rebuttal: You're dumb? Being forced to vary up your moveset to maintain kill power is a very interesting strategic implementation. It requires you to think not only about what the move you're using will lead into, but also about how it will affect the game as a whole.

7) Tripping. Rebuttal: Tripping removal code?
7a) We shouldn't have to hack the game for it to be playable. Rebuttal: Yeah, well, Sakurai made some mistakes (case in point, the wifi stuff, no DLC). If you have a problem with something, and can turn it off (even if it's through a roundabout way), then do so. Or are you still playing with items and all stages on?

 

[AlexX]

Besides, getting comboed from 0-death isn't really fun. I defy anyone to tell me it is

What 0% death combos were in Melee? The Ken combo is the only thing that comes to my mind, but I heard we had discovered a way to escape it...

 

[Vyse]

Well actually...

There once was a smasher called Mathos
He was always getting his laser off
He spammed it all day
People called it gay
A hell of a spammer, Mathos

 

[MarKO X]

What 0% death combos were in Melee? The Ken combo is the only thing that comes to my mind, but I heard we had discovered a way to escape it...

Yikes...

Anyway, the only thing pessimistic about Brawl is having to read about how it's not Melee.

Another thing pessimistic about Brawl is that everyone is trying to come up with these amazing ways to make the metagame better, such as heavy brawl, banning MK, no tripping (which I think is a fine idea) no shielding, etc. Now, I have no problem with people trying to think outside the box... but after a while, that just gets depressing.

Spoiler

(especially when things like playing with items should probably be considered for Brawl, considering the defense was designed to deal with items...)

 

[GofG]

Just...consider Brawl in a vacuum. Had its predecessor not existed, what would you make of the competetive scene as a whole?

The game is fun, well-paced, addicting, and the skill gap exists (with no strings attached) as the better player wins. Think about it, if Brawl had like, tripping AND like three kinds of completely-random-movement-affecting dumb ****, then it'd be as competetively valuable as Mario Party.

I think people are forcing Brawl. Unneccesarily, too. They think Brawl is inadequate, so they deny it and spite themselves by playing a game they think that they think sucks balls!

When you think of Brawl by itself, yeah, it's a very worthy game. People would gasp in awe at the fact that you can dash and then quickly dash the other direction, negating your previous momentum (dash-dancing). Then people would trip balls the first time they ever discovered hyphen-smashing, or something like that.

What is bringing Brawl down is Melee. I guess it's like, giving you yogurt and then giving you fat-free yogurt. You'd normally like the taste but it's no normal yogurt. Sakurai released these games in the wrong order dammit!

(OMG imagine a wavedashing ROB!)

If Melee did not exist, then brawl would have had to create its own userbase. None of us would know about it other than the fact that it's this nintendo thing. There is no chance that someone would make a Smashboards like Gideon did, because the game would not become as popular as Melee did, because it simply is not as good a competitive fighter as Melee was.

Brawl would be about as competitive as some of the later Naruto games. They have an extremely small fanbase that is centered mostly in southern california and NYC, and the rest of the competitive fighting community (srk) ignores them.

 

[Yuna]

I believe it's because of the audience Brawl has attracted. Before Brawl, we had Melee. Melee already attracted a large amount of Casual gamers, most of which were pre-pubescent, barely-pubescent or at least pre-pubescent at heart.

Then Brawl was announced and Smashboards was swamped by newcomers, a lot of them from GameFAQs and/or joining their very first Competitive gaming community. They lack insight and knowledge into how Competitive gaming works. They think their way is the right way.

This is why we see so many people argue for things to be applied to Smash that would never fly for any other Competitive game in existence!

Wah! Wah! You ban way too many stages! Wah! Wah! More diversity! Boring! - You wouldn't survive a day playing any other Competitive fighter then because most of their stages are pretty much identical save for a wall here and a wall there and the general size and shape (not that it matters most of the time). We have to ban certain stages. Live with it.
Why don't we ban/unban these things for more diversity and fun? - Seriously, the "for fun" and "for diversity" arguments are so inane, mods on "traditional" Competitive fighting game forums would itch to ban you if you said that on their boards.
Let's use items! - Yes, let's all play Guilty Gear XX where at any time, an item could spawn anywhere on the map and completely upset the balance of the match. "But it's exciting... and it's boring to always have the most skilled person win!" (seriously, people have argued this).
Let's use Final Smashes! - Yes, let's play Soul Calibur IV where at any given moment, a special item could spawn and the first one to get it gains an unblockable and pretty fast attack/transformation with Invincibility, most of them guaranteeing an instant knockout or at least taking out a large chunk of your life bar!
Let's hack the game to hack out Tripping! It's random, after all! - So are many glitches in, say, Super Street Fighter II Turbo. But we don't hack the games. If they're unplayable without hacking, we just don't play them. If we have to resort to hacking the game and reshaping it as we want to make it playable, then we shouldn't be playing the game at all.
Let's not stop at hacking out Tripping! Let's re-balance the game! - Go away.
My character is, too, good! Because they just are! - Yah, in La La Land.
You said my character isn't good! How dare you! - Yes, get offended because I claimed your favourite character isn't Competitively viable, you little fanboy.
There's this technique/character/cookie I cannot beat! Ban! - We only ban things as a last resort, only if the metagame will revolve completely around that one thing.

And when I criticize them for publishing these inane ideas/thoughts/opinions, often times quite civilly, if a bit sarcastic, they cry "Flaming! Wah! Wah!".

Seriously, these boards are swamped with ignorant, whiny little snot-faced brats who have very little to no knowledge about how Competitive gaming works, who refuse to see things any way other than their own (they just won't listen no matter how many times people tell them something) and who will whine and ***** and moan every single time someone's not 100% nice to them.

It's the necessary evil that comes from the fact that Brawl is intended to be one of the ultimate fan service games in the history of videogames. Thus, the game attracts one jillion legally blind (in at least one eye) fanboys, most of them young, immature, ignorant and just generally unfit to take part in serious debates (but they join them anyway).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

In it's own way, I like Brawl just as much as Melee. I think Yuna pretty much nailed it with the fan service comment but I think it's easy to ignore. It's a good fighting game, it just isn't as good as Melee

 

[Johnthegalactic]

Despite Brawl being a ground up game for the Wii, it is played like a build on an older iteration of the series, this is a huge hamper to making progress on a competitive level.

 

[Vulcan55]

Melee's metagame was practically defined by chaingrabs. [...] many of them 0-death.
[...] Also, Melee Falco SHL much? (Compared to Brawl's projectile spam)
[...]combos are still very possible. (in Brawl)
[...]Besides, getting comboed from 0-death isn't really fun.
[...]The better player isn't the one who can pull of their cookiecutter 0-death combo first,

Brawl noobs make me cry.

 

[Tage Erlander]

Brawl noobs make me cry.

Then cry more.

 

[GofG]

I believe it's because of the audience Brawl has attracted. Before Brawl, we had Melee. Melee already attracted a large amount of Casual gamers, most of which were pre-pubescent, barely-pubescent or at least pre-pubescent at heart.

Then Brawl was announced and Smashboards was swamped by newcomers, a lot of them from GameFAQs and/or joining their very first Competitive gaming community. They lack insight and knowledge into how Competitive gaming works. They think their way is the right way.

This is why we see so many people argue for things to be applied to Smash that would never fly for any other Competitive game in existence!

Wah! Wah! You ban way too many stages! Wah! Wah! More diversity! Boring! - You wouldn't survive a day playing any other Competitive fighter then because most of their stages are pretty much identical save for a wall here and a wall there and the general size and shape (not that it matters most of the time). We have to ban certain stages. Live with it.
Why don't we ban/unban these things for more diversity and fun? - Seriously, the "for fun" and "for diversity" arguments are so inane, mods on "traditional" Competitive fighting game forums would itch to ban you if you said that on their boards.
Let's use items! - Yes, let's all play Guilty Gear XX where at any time, an item could spawn anywhere on the map and completely upset the balance of the match. "But it's exciting... and it's boring to always have the most skilled person win!" (seriously, people have argued this).
Let's use Final Smashes! - Yes, let's play Soul Calibur IV where at any given moment, a special item could spawn and the first one to get it gains an unblockable and pretty fast attack/transformation with Invincibility, most of them guaranteeing an instant knockout or at least taking out a large chunk of your life bar!
Let's hack the game to hack out Tripping! It's random, after all! - So are many glitches in, say, Super Street Fighter II Turbo. But we don't hack the games. If they're unplayable without hacking, we just don't play them. If we have to resort to hacking the game and reshaping it as we want to make it playable, then we shouldn't be playing the game at all.
Let's not stop at hacking out Tripping! Let's re-balance the game! - Go away.
My character is, too, good! Because they just are! - Yah, in La La Land.
You said my character isn't good! How dare you! - Yes, get offended because I claimed your favourite character isn't Competitively viable, you little fanboy.
There's this technique/character/cookie I cannot beat! Ban! - We only ban things as a last resort, only if the metagame will revolve completely around that one thing.

And when I criticize them for publishing these inane ideas/thoughts/opinions, often times quite civilly, if a bit sarcastic, they cry "Flaming! Wah! Wah!".

Seriously, these boards are swamped with ignorant, whiny little snot-faced brats who have very little to no knowledge about how Competitive gaming works, who refuse to see things any way other than their own (they just won't listen no matter how many times people tell them something) and who will whine and ***** and moan every single time someone's not 100% nice to them.

It's the necessary evil that comes from the fact that Brawl is intended to be one of the ultimate fan service games in the history of videogames. Thus, the game attracts one jillion legally blind (in at least one eye) fanboys, most of them young, immature, ignorant and just generally unfit to take part in serious debates (but they join them anyway).

Threadwinner. I would sig this entire post if I could. I'm definitely going to link to it whenever someone questions my intense hatred of 2008ers.

 

[CYAN!]

1.) Its a game, why dont people just play it and get over it. Not every game will be the same just like not every movie, if it was the same then why the hell would you watch it again or buy another one. In movies, there are things that you love and that you really hate, so don't think that just because the gameplay changed a little that its not going to be JUST as fun as melee.

Brawl = Melee in competitiveness
Its just a change in style, nuff said.

2.) Ive played melee, and ive played brawl. Non competitively on melee, almost with only computer players save for when i went to my friends house. I really love brawl because of the online option and because of the changes, that dosent mean i wont pick melee up and play it once again. This is your life, you have choices to play or not to play the game.

Note: Im just trying to pull out some points (that may or may have not been said earlyer)

Its a game, if you like it, play it. If not, be quiet.

 

[GofG]

1.) Its a game, why dont people just play it and get over it.

Brawl = Melee in competitiveness
Its just a change in style, nuff said.

Its a game, if you like it, play it. If not, be quiet.

This website is for the DISCUSSION OF COMPETITIVE SMASH. This subforum, Brawl Tactical, is SPECIFICALLY ABOUT THE DISCUSSION OF COMPETITIVE TACTICS IN COMPETITIVE SMASH. Get the **** out.

 

[Johnthegalactic]

I believe it's because of the audience Brawl has attracted. Before Brawl, we had Melee. Melee already attracted a large amount of Casual gamers, most of which were pre-pubescent, barely-pubescent or at least pre-pubescent at heart.

Then Brawl was announced and Smashboards was swamped by newcomers, a lot of them from GameFAQs and/or joining their very first Competitive gaming community. They lack insight and knowledge into how Competitive gaming works. They think their way is the right way.

This is why we see so many people argue for things to be applied to Smash that would never fly for any other Competitive game in existence!

Wah! Wah! You ban way too many stages! Wah! Wah! More diversity! Boring! - You wouldn't survive a day playing any other Competitive fighter then because most of their stages are pretty much identical save for a wall here and a wall there and the general size and shape (not that it matters most of the time). We have to ban certain stages. Live with it.
Why don't we ban/unban these things for more diversity and fun? - Seriously, the "for fun" and "for diversity" arguments are so inane, mods on "traditional" Competitive fighting game forums would itch to ban you if you said that on their boards.
Let's use items! - Yes, let's all play Guilty Gear XX where at any time, an item could spawn anywhere on the map and completely upset the balance of the match. "But it's exciting... and it's boring to always have the most skilled person win!" (seriously, people have argued this).
Let's use Final Smashes! - Yes, let's play Soul Calibur IV where at any given moment, a special item could spawn and the first one to get it gains an unblockable and pretty fast attack/transformation with Invincibility, most of them guaranteeing an instant knockout or at least taking out a large chunk of your life bar!
Let's hack the game to hack out Tripping! It's random, after all! - So are many glitches in, say, Super Street Fighter II Turbo. But we don't hack the games. If they're unplayable without hacking, we just don't play them. If we have to resort to hacking the game and reshaping it as we want to make it playable, then we shouldn't be playing the game at all.
Let's not stop at hacking out Tripping! Let's re-balance the game! - Go away.
My character is, too, good! Because they just are! - Yah, in La La Land.
You said my character isn't good! How dare you! - Yes, get offended because I claimed your favourite character isn't Competitively viable, you little fanboy.
There's this technique/character/cookie I cannot beat! Ban! - We only ban things as a last resort, only if the metagame will revolve completely around that one thing.

And when I criticize them for publishing these inane ideas/thoughts/opinions, often times quite civilly, if a bit sarcastic, they cry "Flaming! Wah! Wah!".

Seriously, these boards are swamped with ignorant, whiny little snot-faced brats who have very little to no knowledge about how Competitive gaming works, who refuse to see things any way other than their own (they just won't listen no matter how many times people tell them something) and who will whine and ***** and moan every single time someone's not 100% nice to them.

It's the necessary evil that comes from the fact that Brawl is intended to be one of the ultimate fan service games in the history of videogames. Thus, the game attracts one jillion legally blind (in at least one eye) fanboys, most of them young, immature, ignorant and just generally unfit to take part in serious debates (but they join them anyway).

I agree with this message.

 

[KernelColonel]

If Melee did not exist, then brawl would have had to create its own userbase. None of us would know about it other than the fact that it's this nintendo thing. There is no chance that someone would make a Smashboards like Gideon did, because the game would not become as popular as Melee did, because it simply is not as good a competitive fighter as Melee was.

Well, it would have had to create its own competetive userbase, at least. Because I think it's pretty much decided that Brawl is played/bought by/liked by more people than Melee did after 6-ish months.

Brawl would be about as competitive as some of the later Naruto games. They have an extremely small fanbase that is centered mostly in southern california and NYC, and the rest of the competitive fighting community (srk) ignores them.

To tell you the truth I didn't even know Naruto had video games

 

[Sliq]

Well, it would have had to create its own competetive userbase, at least. Because I think it's pretty much decided that Brawl is played/bought by/liked by more people than Melee did after 6-ish months.


To tell you the truth I didn't even know Naruto had video games

I haven't seen a single new smasher that I would believe would take the reigns on their own and start hosting tournaments to push Brawl's scene, ESPECIALLY without smashboards or all is brawl.

 

[MarKO X]

Well, it would have had to create its own competetive userbase, at least. Because I think it's pretty much decided that Brawl is played/bought by/liked by more people than Melee did after 6-ish months.


To tell you the truth I didn't even know Naruto had video games

Brawl sold well because of the fanbase created by Melee, both on the competitive and the casual standpoint.

If there was no Melee, but Brawl came out when Melee did, then one could argue that Melee (had it come out when Brawl did) would enjoy the same monetary success.

And yeah, Naruto games.. haha.

 

[GofG]

Hey. Naruto games are really fun. BRING DOWN THE HOUSE JUTSU!!

Too bad the competitive community is ban-happy.