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Work In Progress Perfect setups (TV/monitor, console, capture device)

Kadano

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ViewSonic a91f+ via CVC 300.
Ah, right, you mentioned that earlier already. Sorry for not remembering.
How much did you get the CVC 300 for?
Also sniped a Extron USP 405 cuz I saw it at a good price (50+shipping), gonna try it out to get the PVM to act as an external monitor like I originally planned. Heard also emulators for retro games look great on PVMs (esp the NES/SNES/MAME etc).
I'm curious how well this will work. From the description, it seems that the USP will always do some scaling (since they don't mention a direct conversion without scaling mode). From my experience with Extron products, I'd expect that they still manage to do that with very high speed and quality, so I expect that the delay over a CVC 300 is less than one millisecond.

But my experience with a cheap scaler was horrible to say the least, so let's hope that the Extron USP is three classes above that.

Although, I'm not exactly sure what purpose the USP will serve in your signal chain?
 

DaRkStRiDeR2

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Apr 14, 2004
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Location
San Jose, California
Ah, right, you mentioned that earlier already. Sorry for not remembering.
How much did you get the CVC 300 for?
50 + free shipping

I'm curious how well this will work. From the description, it seems that the USP will always do some scaling (since they don't mention a direct conversion without scaling mode). From my experience with Extron products, I'd expect that they still manage to do that with very high speed and quality, so I expect that the delay over a CVC 300 is less than one millisecond.

But my experience with a cheap scaler was horrible to say the least, so let's hope that the Extron USP is three classes above that.

Although, I'm not exactly sure what purpose the USP will serve in your signal chain?
I'm curious bout that as well. Right now I couldn't get my laptop to output correctly to the PVM (vga -> Display Port -> BNC (combining H/V signals with a BNC combiner -> External sync). DisplayPort doesn't support CRT TV.

Looking at the USP 405 manual looks like it can just take whatever I give it via VGA and output straight to component or whatever compatiable resolution/freq. So hopefully it work flawlessly this time; however, I want to know how rgb downscaling (presumably) would affect input lag if noticeable.
 
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DaRkStRiDeR2

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Instead of going the cheap way out and settling for a BMI Shuttle, I did some extensive research, and I'd like to call your attention to:

The Extron USP 405!

This unit, which averages $100 on eBay but can go as low as $70, is a universal sync converter, signal transcoder, and scaler. Any of the inputs (VGA, RGB, YPbPr, S-Video, Composite) can be transcoded to any of the outputs (same selection). The VGA and RGB outputs are both simultaneously active, so you can output to a VGA capture card and to a PVM without splitters. Loopbacks are also provdided on most inputs, so it acts as a 1:2 VGA distribution amplifier, for example. Scaling anything up or down to various resolutions is supported, maxing out at 1080p.

It does the transcoding job of a BMI Shuttle, while being cheaper and not requiring a PC. It also supports VGA input instead of just Component, so those with modded VGA cables are good to go. Basically, it's a universal magic machine to make any GC/Wii cable work on any TV, PVM or PC monitor, and still record at full quality 480p.

According to the specs sheet, the max propagation time is 20ns, so lagless.
The only downside I know of is that it apparently doesn't play nicely with 240p. Such a shame, but not relevant for Melee.
This one arrived at my doorstep today. It's smooth as butter. Using the VGA loopback to compare simulataneously with Dolphin->CRT monitor [1], eyeballing, no noticeable difference in input lag. I also like the knob that you can use to quickly scroll through all the diff output resolutions.

[1] Setup: [Dolphin->(VGA via DisplayPort)->ExtronUSP405(convert RGB to compatible RGB (e.g: 720p/60)->PVM] , use VGA loop back to connect to CRT monitor.
 

Kadano

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This one arrived at my doorstep today. It's smooth as butter. Using the VGA loopback to compare simulataneously with Dolphin->CRT monitor [1], eyeballing, no noticeable difference in input lag. I also like the knob that you can use to quickly scroll through all the diff output resolutions.

[1] Setup: [Dolphin->(VGA via DisplayPort)->ExtronUSP405(convert RGB to compatible RGB (e.g: 720p/60)->PVM] , use VGA loop back to connect to CRT monitor.
So its main use to you is to allow you to use a PVM and a CRT VGA monitor simultaneously with the same console / PC, do I understand that correctly?

Great to hear that it works without lag! Have you also tested YPbPr at the input, transcoded to RGBHV at the outputs?
 
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DaRkStRiDeR2

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So its main use to you is to allow you to use a PVM and a CRT VGA monitor simultaneously with the same console / PC, do I understand that correctly?
My use case was have console and PC connected to use the same CRT monitor / tv, selectable by a switch. First I wanted to do this with an Extron CVC (which I got first) and my ViewSonic. But then I saw a good conditioned PVM 20L5 at a reasonable price on Ebay, so wanted to do this with a PVM monitor. However, althought Wii is easy to connect to the PVM, I had trouble connecting PC to the PVM (using a DisplayPort->(VGA->5BNC w/ BNC Y-combiner) to input combine HV to external sync). Given the shaking picture, I suspect it was either DisplayPort forcing some incompatible resolution or my vgc->bnc combination isn't doing the job. Then I saw the USP 405 on sale for a good price, so I got that just assuming it's just gonna solve my problem.

Long story short, the PC is using the USP 405 to do a RGB->component output; both the console and USP output are connected to a manual component switch whose output goes to the PVM.

Great to hear that it works without lag! Have you also tested YPbPr at the input, transcoded to RGBHV at the outputs?
Yea, Wii->USP->CRT monitor . It's Extron CVC quality.
 

Fishaman P

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Anyone have experience with the Extron VSC700 scan converter? Using The Wii's Y (of YPbPr) as an input to G (of RGsB) gets me sync and a green picture (as expected), but there's an almost constant tearing/horizontal graphics glitch about 3/4 way down the screen. Is it just a sync issue that my new CVC200 (thanks Kadano!) would solve?
 

jmlee337

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Slippi.gg
LEE#337
sounds likely to be a sync thing, but post a phone pic real quick?
 

jmlee337

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LEE#337
Bad news regarding the Extron VSC500/700

Not 100% conclusive because I'm not certain how scan conversion affects my oscilloscope method, if at all, but I measured the VSC500 to nearly 8ms latency: http://imgur.com/V51rhp9
 

DaRkStRiDeR2

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Bad news regarding the Extron VSC500/700

Not 100% conclusive because I'm not certain how scan conversion affects my oscilloscope method, if at all, but I measured the VSC500 to nearly 8ms latency: http://imgur.com/V51rhp9
Interesting. Do you have your methodology for measuring latency thru devices like these documented somewhere in these forums? I'm been perfectly happy with my Extron USP 405 but I'd like to know for myself in raw numbers the lag for any of the conversions I'm doing (e.g: just RGB->component 720p60p right now).

Since the Extron USP 405 is a "can do everything you want" device, if I'm able to replicate some methodology, I'd be more than happy to report on this thread all kinds of measurements for the Extron 405 USP conversions. It is a pretty slick device for use in TO-ing or personal use.
 

jmlee337

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LEE#337
Interesting. Do you have your methodology for measuring latency thru devices like these documented somewhere in these forums? I'm been perfectly happy with my Extron USP 405 but I'd like to know for myself in raw numbers the lag for any of the conversions I'm doing (e.g: just RGB->component 720p60p right now).

Since the Extron USP 405 is a "can do everything you want" device, if I'm able to replicate some methodology, I'd be more than happy to report on this thread all kinds of measurements for the Extron 405 USP conversions. It is a pretty slick device for use in TO-ing or personal use.
You take a two channel oscilloscope and you compare the sync signals at the input and output.
 

Jackson Cantin

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Anyone have any experience with the PVM-20L2MD? It's a medical monitor with video pass through but I'm wondering if anyone has an idea of what the latency is like.
 

jmlee337

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LEE#337
probably effectively 0, same as other Sony PVM class monitors. In general it's safe to assume any given CRT is 'lagless' as >95% of CRTs out there in the world are, and those that aren't often can be spotted by looking for certain giveaways
 

Kadano

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probably effectively 0, same as other Sony PVM class monitors. In general it's safe to assume any given CRT is 'lagless' as >95% of CRTs out there in the world are, and those that aren't often can be spotted by looking for certain giveaways
In test runs I did for my PVM20M7MDE, I noticed that feeding it interlaced video resulted in a bit (about 8 ms) of lag. The likely cause is that it has double scan technology, which buffers each frame and outputs it twice. With progressive scan input, these circuits seem to be disabled as the measurements were 8 ms faster with that.

So with at least some PVM models, using progressive scan is necessary to make sure it has no lag.

Also, there was a thread years ago in which Armada and ajp_anton claimed that a good portion (15-30%) of CRT TVs used in tournaments do have lag. They said that they were easily able to discern them just by subjective feeling while playing. It would be interesting to me to measure CRT TVs on their true amount of lag.

Do you know a simple way to check for that, using a 2-channel oscilloscope (which I am hoping to be able to buy within the next month)?
 

jmlee337

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In test runs I did for my PVM20M7MDE, I noticed that feeding it interlaced video resulted in a bit (about 8 ms) of lag. The likely cause is that it has double scan technology, which buffers each frame and outputs it twice. With progressive scan input, these circuits seem to be disabled as the measurements were 8 ms faster with that.
Hmm, is there maybe a setting to turn that 'double scan' feature off?

Also, there was a thread years ago in which Armada and ajp_anton claimed that a good portion (15-30%) of CRT TVs used in tournaments do have lag. They said that they were easily able to discern them just by subjective feeling while playing. It would be interesting to me to measure CRT TVs on their true amount of lag.
That definitely a concerningly high number. It could be that the CRT landscape in Europe is different for whatever reason and there's just a lot more laggy CRTs there. That has to be significant lag before you can feel it though, easily into LCD levels. Some VR research I've read suggested most people can't detect input lag below 7-10ms, but I'd give Armada the benefit of the doubt down to around 2ms. Lower than that is into sub-LCD levels and then I'd ask for a double-blind A/B test.

Do you know a simple way to check for that, using a 2-channel oscilloscope (which I am hoping to be able to buy within the next month)?
Only feasible thing I can think of would be to get at the internals and compare the sync signal at the input on the front/back to the sync signal (or equivalent) at the tube itself? You'd have to interpret the signals though since the 'formats' so to speak would be different. Obviously you'd deal with standard composite sync at the front/back input, but I believe the tube would take a straight waveform
 

Kadano

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ajp_anton claimed that percentage for USA CRT TVs. He said that they felt that those in Europe had a better rate.

I saw someone measure CRT lag with a light sensor that detected brightness changes, which he compared to the CVBS input on an oscilloscope. I will ask him about the exact implementation and try to do the same.
 

jmlee337

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Kadano

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Extron MVX 84 & MVX 88 VGA-A matrix switcher review



Purpose
The Extron MVX line are professional video and audio routing devices that are used for assigning inputs to outputs in any configuration freely.
For us smashers, the main use of these devices is being able to re-route console and PC video to different monitors without needing to unplug any VGA connectors / re-wire cables.

I personally have used it for my main setup that consists of three CRT PC monitors that are fed video by two Gamecubes (with DAC VGA cables), one Wii (through Wii component cables and an Extron CVC 200) and a number of PCs.
The MVX allowed for things like assigning a PC's video output to one of the monitor (to, say, watch a livestream) with the press of three buttons (input #, output #, enter).
Before I had the MVX, I was using a simple VGA switch and a couple of distribution amplifiers. To put it shortly, as soon as the number of video devices you want to switch between exceeds two and the number of displays exceeds one, the MVX handles things much better.

Other possible usage scenarios:
1. Routing a large number of console video and audio signals to a number of streaming / recording stations
2. Feeding a number of public info displays (for matches due to be played or showing the current livestream) whose content can be switched quickly and easily (VGA is still the go-to video signal for long distances)


Size, connectors, usage
The MVX line has rack format (44 cm wide and 24 cm deep). The 44-88 models have a height of 4.4 cm, the 128 model measures 9 cm and the 1212-1616 models 13.3 cm.

The video connectors used are D-Sub HD15 ("VGA"), which are standardized for RGBHV input, but also allow all other analog video inputs (RGBS, RGB with csync on any color channel, YPbPr / component video, S-Video, CVBS / Composite Video).
Note, however, that the MVX series does not feature signal transcoding. If you input CVBS, it will be output only as CVBS, never as RGBHV, for example.

Audio inputs on the 44-88 models have standard 3.5mm stereo unbalanced plugs. The inputs on the larger models and the outputs on all models are 5-pin headers with 3.5mm spacing that allow both unbalanced and balanced wiring. You can either buy pre-made connector cables from Extron (for about 15€ for just one cable) or produce them yourself by cutting audio cables, demantling them and screwing the copper into the connectors.

Some units come with the connectors included, some do not. In case yours misses them, here is where I bought fitting ports: http://dhgate.com/product/productdi...pitch-3-5mm-screw-terminal&itemcode=136964930

Usage: A very nice feature of these is that they have very user-friendly instructions included on the back side of the unit, so you don't need an instruction manual.
To give you a basic idea of the usage process, here's a short description:
On power-on, the MVX will, after about two seconds of automatically self-testing (indicated by flashing LEDs), default to the input-output matrix configuration it used last time. To assign a new configuration, first click on the input you want to assign. This will make all output LEDs that currently output that port's video lighten up. By clicking on any of the output buttons, you'll toggle them on or off, with the corresponding LED directly indicating that change.
To confirm the new assignment, press enter.
Whenever you assign an input to an output that previously was displaying a different input, the previous input will keep outputting to all the outputs it was assigned to before, except the ones now assigned to the new input.
It is not possible to "mix" two inputs into one output.
By default, the LEDs for audio and video are both on. If you press the corresponding toggle, you can switch between audio+video mode, solo-audio mode and solo-video mode. The latter two allow assigning audio inputs two different outputs than the corresponding video outputs. For example, you can forward audio input 1 to audio output 1, but forward video input 1 to video output 2 (and video input 2 to video output 1).
To do so, you'd first press the toggle until only the video input lights up, and then do the normal process of video assigning (click on input 1, then on output 2, then on Enter).

There is also a per-input audio level mixer. By pressing the audio toggle button for about three seconds, it switches to a red LED that indicates audio setup. Pressing an input button will allow adjusting that input's audio signal strength with the ↑ and ↓ buttons.

Gamecube VGA cables will be processed directly and correctly. Wii VGA cables (those for 20$ that also have a PS3 input connector), due to their unclean sync signals, will not be processed correctly by the MVX if plugged in directly and simply show a black screen. By running the VGA cable through an Extron RGB interface before connecting it to the MVX, you can make sure the RGBHV signals are up to the MVX's standards. Alternatively, you can use higher quality YPbPr to RGBHV converters like the Extron CVC series.

Video quality and processing time
The video output is 100% of the input's quality, as far as I can tell visually (I don't have an oscilloscope yet, so I can't measure it currently). Anything else would be intolerable for professional video equipment that cost 2000-16000$ when new, so this was expected.

I have tried to measure the processing time, but it turned out that the equipment I have is insufficient. Extron lists a maximum propagation delay of 90+160 nanoseconds, and with 120 fps filming of two identical CRT monitors, one connected to a video signal that was routed to one MVX and the other one routed through two MVX units, all I was able to prove is that the lag is 0.3 milliseconds or less. I feel pretty sure that the sub-µs range specified by Extron is indeed correct. When I get an oscilloscope, I will hopefully be able to confirm this.
In any case, 0.3 ms is about one tenth of the input lag of the very fastest gaming LCDs out there, so even if the MVX has that much (which I doubt), you could run ten of them in succession without getting a significant amount of lag.

Power usage
The MVX is a professional device, not a consumer product. As such, it doesn’t have a standby mode, so you’ll have to turn off its power supply to ensure no power is drawn.
Regardless of whether video is being input or not, the MVX 84 draws 17 Watts and the MVX 88 draws 20 Watts. (Measured with a Voltcraft 3000.)
Extron gives power usage estimates of 30 Watts for the 44-128 models and 48 Watts for the 1212-1616 models, which I guess is assuming maximum audio volume and a full configuration (all inputs and outputs active).

Sources and availability
The 44-84 models are on Ebay quite often for low prices of 30-40$. The 88 models and upwards are a bit rarer, at least at affordable prices.
In my opinion and from following the Ebay auctions, these are the prices you should buy them at including shipping:
↓ Model \ Location → | USA | EU
Extron MVX 44 | 40$ | 60€
Extron MVX 48 / 84 | 60$ | 90€
Extron MVX 88 | 70$ | 110€
Extron MVX 128 | 90$ | 130€
Extron MVX 1212 | 100$ | 150€
Extron MVX 1616 | 150$ | 180€
I got my MVX 84 shipped to Europe for 90€ total and my MVX 88 for 110€ total, which where the cheapest offers in about three months each respectively.

About twice a year someone offers them for only about half the prices in this table. For example, I saw an MVX 1616 sold for 45$ once. If you see them for prices that low, I'd say buy them immediately.

Alternatives
There are other companies that produce matrix VGA switchers, for example Aten, StarTech and Lindy. However, from what I've seen so far, I don't think they are better buys than used Extron MVX switchers. So unless you can get one of the other brands for a really cheap price, I'd say keep looking for an Extron.
 
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schmooblidon

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Hey Kadano great thread. I just bought a PVM for RGB on the Wii and am having a bit of trouble.

I live in the UK, so my Wii is PAL. I have a PVM 14N6E, and I bought this rgb scart, and this rgb-to-bnc converter.

When I first plugged it all in and turned on the Wii, the sync was not working, at this time the Wii display setting was on 480i. I then changed to 576i, and it was synced so now I could see. But the colours were mixed up.

red displays as green
blue displays as red
green displays as blue

Switching the cables around gave me the correct colours, and I can happily move through the menus and play VC games.

But when I try to launch a GC or Wii game, it desyncs and only displays 1 colour.

Also might be important to note that whenever I turn the Wii on, in the corner of the PVM display it says 625/50 which I'm guessing is the resolution and framerate.

edit: Launching a GC disc, still desyncs but has all colours. This might just be because it's PAL and my isos are NTSC

edit2:Ok I tried PAL Melee, and setting it to 50Hz works fine, it's when you change to 60Hz it desyncs. So how do I get my PVM to display 60?
 
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Kadano

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Hey Kadano great thread. I just bought a PVM for RGB on the Wii and am having a bit of trouble.

I live in the UK, so my Wii is PAL. I have a PVM 14N6E, and I bought this rgb scart, and this rgb-to-bnc converter.

When I first plugged it all in and turned on the Wii, the sync was not working, at this time the Wii display setting was on 480i. I then changed to 576i, and it was synced so now I could see. But the colours were mixed up.

red displays as green
blue displays as red
green displays as blue

Switching the cables around gave me the correct colours, and I can happily move through the menus and play VC games.

But when I try to launch a GC or Wii game, it desyncs and only displays 1 colour.

Also might be important to note that whenever I turn the Wii on, in the corner of the PVM display it says 625/50 which I'm guessing is the resolution and framerate.

edit: Launching a GC disc, still desyncs but has all colours. This might just be because it's PAL and my isos are NTSC

edit2:Ok I tried PAL Melee, and setting it to 50Hz works fine, it's when you change to 60Hz it desyncs. So how do I get my PVM to display 60?
I've always been using my PVM 20M7MDE with component cables and don't have SCART to 4 BNC cables, so unfortunately I can't test this issue directly.

You say that it desyncs and only displays one color. Does this mean that the entire screen is active and the graphics have the correct shapes, just that it's all shades of red / green / blue?

According to the specifications, the PVM 14N6E should auto-detect 480i60 / 576i50, so it shouldn't behave as it is doing for you at all.
Have you tried forcing all kinds of video standards with Nintendont / whatever launcher you are using?

If none of them work, maybe connect to the PVM with standard composite cables and see if it displays 480i60 properly there.
 
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schmooblidon

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I've always been using my PVM 20M7MDE with component cables and don't have SCART to 4 BNC cables, so unfortunately I can't test this issue directly.

You say that it desyncs and only displays one color. Does this mean that the entire screen is active and the graphics have the correct shapes, just that it's all shades of red / green / blue?

According to the specifications, the PVM 14N6E should auto-detect 480i60 / 576i50, so it shouldn't behave as it is doing for you at all.
Have you tried forcing all kinds of video standards with Nintendont / whatever launcher you are using?

If none of them work, maybe connect to the PVM with standard composite cables and see if it displays 480i60 properly there.
edit:

I AM ********
Theres a god damn menu option for resolution/framerate and it was on 625/50. Set it to Auto, and no more desync. I def went through the menus before, must of missed it and never tried again. I can fix the NTSC colours by uses diosmioslauncher's force Pal60. Would there be any affect on gameplay by doing this?


Only when I launch something NTSC do I get 1 colour, and yes it very much looks like the whole picture is there just 1 colour, red to be specific (altho that is with the swapped cables, if connecting them by inituition then its green).

Using composite behaves exactly the same, except when I try to launch something NTSC it goes black and white

edit: upon closer inspection, when using RGB with NTSC. I went to the CSS and can see bits of green (mario's hat lol) and blue. Swapping all the cables around, it seems that Yellow and Green are outputting the same thing and can be swapped (using sync on green or ext sync) to produce the same thing. Red does not seem to be producing anything, as inputting it into any plug does nothing.
 
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Kadano

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I can fix the NTSC colours by uses diosmioslauncher's force Pal60. Would there be any affect on gameplay by doing this?
Forcing PAL 60 can not cause lag or any other gameplay differences.

Only when I launch something NTSC do I get 1 colour, and yes it very much looks like the whole picture is there just 1 colour, red to be specific (altho that is with the swapped cables, if connecting them by inituition then its green).

Using composite behaves exactly the same, except when I try to launch something NTSC it goes black and white

edit: upon closer inspection, when using RGB with NTSC. I went to the CSS and can see bits of green (mario's hat lol) and blue. Swapping all the cables around, it seems that Yellow and Green are outputting the same thing and can be swapped (using sync on green or ext sync) to produce the same thing. Red does not seem to be producing anything, as inputting it into any plug does nothing.
Yellow and Green? In RGB, there is no yellow component. So I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Possibly DML NTSC output on PAL Wiis is buggy, but since PAL60 output seems to be working for you, just keep using that.
 

schmooblidon

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Yellow and Green? In RGB, there is no yellow component. So I'm not sure what you are referring to here. Possibly DML NTSC output on PAL Wiis is buggy, but since PAL60 output seems to be working for you, just keep using that.
Sorry by yellow I mean Sync, which is a yellow cable. Thankyou and sorry for wasting your time lol
 

Kadano

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Sorry by yellow I mean Sync, which is a yellow cable. Thankyou and sorry for wasting your time lol
Okay, that kind of makes sense. In NTSC consoles, there is no RGBS output, only YPbPr, which uses Sync on Green. So forcing NTSC on PAL consoles might make RGBS from SCART output YPbPr (component video) partially, which would cause the weird colors and sync both on green and on csync.
 
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schmooblidon

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Okay, that kind of makes sense. In NTSC consoles, there is no RGBS output, only YPbPr, which uses Sync on Green. So forcing NTSC on PAL consoles might make RGBS from SCART output YPbPr (component video) partially, which would cause the weird colors and sync both on green and on csync.
Ah yes I think you are right, because I get the very same colour issue if I try to put component cables into the pvm. Thankyou again
 

Phil Matic

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Some guy near me is selling a PVM14M2MDU... I'm not too good at looking for these things online... Can anyone let me know if it'll run this game in 480p?
 

Kadano

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Some guy near me is selling a PVM14M2MDU... I'm not too good at looking for these things online... Can anyone let me know if it'll run this game in 480p?
Unlikely. Usually the PVMs that are listed as having 800 lines support 480p. The M2MDU models seem to have 600 lines.

If it's near you, I suggest buying three BNC to RCA adapters for 1-2$ and bring your console to the seller to test if it does 480p before buying.
 

Phil Matic

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Unlikely. Usually the PVMs that are listed as having 800 lines support 480p. The M2MDU models seem to have 600 lines.

If it's near you, I suggest buying three BNC to RCA adapters for 1-2$ and bring your console to the seller to test if it does 480p before buying.
So... usually I will need to look for a monitor that at least has 800 lines in order for it to have 480p? The drive is about half an hour away... Not exactly close, but not too far either...

Aside from the obvious testing, is there any way you can read about the specs that will tell you automatically if it'll work for 480p Melee or not? I've always wanted a monitor like these, but it has to be done right.
 

Kadano

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So... usually I will need to look for a monitor that at least has 800 lines in order for it to have 480p? The drive is about half an hour away... Not exactly close, but not too far either...

Aside from the obvious testing, is there any way you can read about the specs that will tell you automatically if it'll work for 480p Melee or not? I've always wanted a monitor like these, but it has to be done right.
If it says "800 lines", "HR Trinitron", "progressive scan" or "31 khz" in the product description, it most likely supports 480p60. But in the documents I found for the M2MDU, none of these were present, and they weren't listed in discussions about 31 khz monitors either, so I estimate that there's a 90% chance it won't do 480p.
Few PVMs do, usually only the L5 range, with some exceptions (like the PVM-20M7MDE that I have).
 

aerokarp

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The Beefy Smash Doods just posted a video and said that all melee setups intrinsically have 5-6 frames of lag. Are they wrong?

Also, I have a CRT with RGBHV inputs. I can just run 5 normal surveillance BNC male to male cables from the CVC 200 to the CRT and it'll work fine, right?
 
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Kadano

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The Beefy Smash Doods just posted a video and said that all melee setups intrinsically have 5-6 frames of lag. Are they wrong?

Also, I have a CRT with RGBHV inputs. I can just run 5 normal surveillance BNC male to male cables from the CVC 200 to the CRT and it'll work fine, right?
I used similar testing methods to theirs, however with a much faster camera that I bought specifically for this (240 / 420 hz instead of their 60). My result was 3-4 frames for Melee in 480p on CRTs. But I did use the control stick movements as reference, not button inputs with LED wired as control. I'll see if I can get an LED button input setup too and make a video of my results.

Yeah, exactly. That'll work as long as you set your console to 480p output (can be a bit challenging on non-multisync monitors; SXGA LCDs with VGA inputs usually display both 480i and 480p, unlike CRT PC monitors, so you might want to use one of them for setting to 480p).
 
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Finch

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Just started reading through this thread. I don't know if you're interested in this but I own both the ASUS VG248QE and the BenQ RL2455HM. The BenQ feels fine when connected to my wii with a sewell converter or through an Avermedia LGP, but I've connected the ASUS to my wii and it feels significantly less responsive. I suspect that although both monitors have a very fast response time, the ASUS takes more time to process the 480p signal and has 1 or 2 extra frames of input lag there. I think the BenQ RL series was specifically made for console play so they made sure that it has fast processing.
 

Slice~

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The Beefy Smash Doods just posted a video and said that all melee setups intrinsically have 5-6 frames of lag. Are they wrong?

Also, I have a CRT with RGBHV inputs. I can just run 5 normal surveillance BNC male to male cables from the CVC 200 to the CRT and it'll work fine, right?
We only used the 6 frame delay to compensate for possible tournament situations regarding "bad" TV's.
We tried to create the worst case scenario.
In our testing we never actually had a 6frame delay but always 4~5 (both Melee and Smash4)

Whoever is right, Kadano or us, the actual reason why we wanted to show this issue is to trigger people into thinking about one thing:
WHY does Smash have such an input delay in comparison to other fighting games? (Rivals of Aether for example gave us 2frames consistently).
We don't know and only have some theories about it;
Like making combination-inputs (like grabs, smashes etc.) easier to pull of. In the end, every Smash title is supposed to be a casual party game without a high learning curve.
This is a fact, if you like it or not.

However, I will keep researching about it since it's a ridiculously interesting topic.
And if possible, I'll let you guys know about it.

-Risuno
 
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DaRkStRiDeR2

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Anyone have knowledge whether it makes a difference in input lag what type of adapter/port (DP vs DVI) used to connect a desktop PC running Dolphin Melee to a CRT monitor? I'm debating switching over from DisplayPort->VGA to a DVI->VGA?
 

Kadano

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We only used the 6 frame delay to compensate for possible tournament situations regarding "bad" TV's.
We tried to create the worst case scenario.
In our testing we never actually had a 6frame delay but always 4~5 (both Melee and Smash4)

Whoever is right, Kadano or us, the actual reason why we wanted to show this issue is to trigger people into thinking about one thing:
WHY does Smash have such an input delay in comparison to other fighting games? (Rivals of Aether for example gave us 2frames consistently).
We don't know and only have some theories about it;
Like making combination-inputs (like grabs, smashes etc.) easier to pull of. In the end, every Smash title is supposed to be a casual party game without a high learning curve.
This is a fact, if you like it or not.

However, I will keep researching about it since it's a ridiculously interesting topic.
And if possible, I'll let you guys know about it.

-Risuno
I heavily doubt that Melee has some kind of software-based frame-buffering going on that makes it have more latency than the hardware allows for.
There is a great thread where ajp_anton theorized about the processing time of Gamecubes, and the measurements I took so far are very much in line with that. Here's my summary, discussion was in the pages before in the same thread: http://smashboards.com/posts/19087659/

You tested Rivals of Aether on PC, right? A modern CPU can finish each frame's calculations much more quickly than the Gamecube can, and the game is also not graphics-heavy, so there will be no frame-buffering / VSync necessary (which the Gamecube always does as far as I know to some extent).

Melee and Smash 4 run very close to the limits of the native hardware, so the frame buffer has to wait longer for the GPU finishing the output, which subsequently has to wait longer for the CPU to finish its instructions. Also, I think PC controllers poll every 2 milliseconds or so, while the Gamecube (and I expect Wii U USB adapters) poll every 5 milliseconds or so, which has a small effect too.

As to why you got 4-5 frames and I got only 3, it's possible you used a CRT that had some lag from comb filters, making it about equally slow as the average LCD. I used 480p CRTs with YPbPr / RGBHV inputs, for which laggy comb filtering and other post-processing does not take place.
But yeah, it's also possible that my analog counting method wasn't accurate enough. Lighting up an LED from button press seems pretty ideal, yeah. Do you have the wiring diagrams around and would share them with me? I'm a total noob with electronics.

Anyone have knowledge whether it makes a difference in input lag what type of adapter/port (DP vs DVI) used to connect a desktop PC running Dolphin Melee to a CRT monitor? I'm debating switching over from DisplayPort->VGA to a DVI->VGA?
DP→VGA adapters are very limited in the bandwidth they can do. All of these that I could find so far maxed out at 180 MHz pixel clock or less, while modern GPUs (NVidia at least, AMD dropped analog output like 2 generations ago) still have 400 MHz RAMDAC pixel clock.

To put these in tangible numbers, I can run my CRTs at 1600x1200p107, 2048x1536p85 or 1280x960p120 on the DVI-I to VGA output (CRT horizontal scan rate limits, not the GPU RAMDAC!), but only at either 1600x1200p60 or 1280x1024p60 at most with a DP→VGA adapter. (I only used it for a very short time to test and remember that I was really disappointed, so I didn't take any notes. Well, either resolution is pretty terrible for a CRT, so I don't think it's worth for me to test again.)

Since Dolphin is so light on the GPU, I recommend getting a DVI-I to VGA adapter and running in the highest resolution / refresh rate your CRT supports. That is, provided you don't have an AMD GPU from the last three years or so.
 

Slice~

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Makes perfect sense.
On the other hand though, I did not only test RoA but also SF5, which had 2 frames too.
Also Melee on a PC emulated gave me the exact same results as on a console.
Edit: we used a system with a GTX 960 and an i7-4790k

I personally doubt that the console/system would start having input delay before an actual drop in fps.
But I can obviously be wrong since I'm just theorizing.
But as long as I don't see a solid proof that Smash games really are not using such a pre-buffering system, I won't drop my thesis.
Which still means that I do not believe in it without a doubt, I'm just guessing and would be glad if someone prove me wrong, just so I can be sure about it.

Are you able to use TAS etc. to give it a try?
For example: if you send a dash input and a ~2frames delayed A input, there should be at least 2frames of the beginning of the dash animation.
If not, then it seems like the game waited for additional inputs after that.

And I want to emphasize on it: I'd love to be proven wrong, since I sadly don't have the knowledge to do so by myself.
 
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DaRkStRiDeR2

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Since Dolphin is so light on the GPU, I recommend getting a DVI-I to VGA adapter and running in the highest resolution / refresh rate your CRT supports. That is, provided you don't have an AMD GPU from the last three years or so.
Thanks for the information Kadano. Actually, my motherboard graphics has a VGA port which I thought I couldn't use because it didn't work unless no display is connected to the dedicated GPU, but after googling, you can in fact use multiple monitors by enabling the motherboard graphics via BIOS setting. It looks like it assumes that display would be connected to a dedicated GPU when connected to it turns the motherboard graphics off.

After enabling it in BIOS, I was able to get VGA->VGA to my CRT monitor. Althought I can only get 1600x1200 at 60hz, and lower ones can do up to 75hz.
 

Kadano

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Thanks for the information Kadano. Actually, my motherboard graphics has a VGA port which I thought I couldn't use because it didn't work unless no display is connected to the dedicated GPU, but after googling, you can in fact use multiple monitors by enabling the motherboard graphics via BIOS setting. It looks like it assumes that display would be connected to a dedicated GPU when connected to it turns the motherboard graphics off.

After enabling it in BIOS, I was able to get VGA->VGA to my CRT monitor. Althought I can only get 1600x1200 at 60hz, and lower ones can do up to 75hz.
Sounds like you have a Haswell or newer chipset then, which only support 180 MHz pixel clock (as opposed to the 350 MHz my two gens older Sandy Bridge integrated graphics do, allowing for 1600x1200p107). If your GPU still has DVI-I, you can get better rates from that.
 

DaRkStRiDeR2

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Sounds like you have a Haswell or newer chipset then, which only support 180 MHz pixel clock (as opposed to the 350 MHz my two gens older Sandy Bridge integrated graphics do, allowing for 1600x1200p107). If your GPU still has DVI-I, you can get better rates from that.
Unfortunately, they're DVI-D. Sad face.
 
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