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People need to understand the real reason for our disappointment:

Tristan_win

Not dead.
Joined
Aug 7, 2006
Messages
3,845
Location
Currently Japan
The removal of L canceling
The removal of wavedashing
The removal of changing direction with B and landing with B moves canceling lag
and now the multiply clones

Theses things are really hurting the games chance of me loving this game as much as Melee. Oh well I guess the 10% or so who truly love this game get’s the shaft.
 

Shadow-Worm

Smash Rookie
Joined
May 12, 2006
Messages
24
Location
Portlandz
You're unhappy about clones and wish they had spent more time developing actual extra characters. That's fine. But the fact that you argue that they shouldn't have spent time introducing Falco and Wolf Fox clones in order to introduce a Krystal Fox clone (because admit it, that's what she would've been) is a little out there, although I get the gist of what you're saying. Personally, I don't mind.
 

Spellman

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
623
Location
Brickway

Brawl will sell well. I know people that have absolutely no interest in Nintendo but still love the Smash series. There's no doubt in my mind that Brawl will sell for years. However, complaints would be if we bought the game and went to Nintendo and complained that it didn't work. This is actually more like critical feedback. Nintendo is (what now?) seven years behind of what we wanted. I already said that this roster looks more of what Melee should have been, what we wanted back then but it lacks what we want now. That's where I think Nintendo went wrong; they should have added what was lacking in Melee and add what we were expecting now. Instead they added what we wanted in Melee and forgot what we wanted and expected in the year 2008.

Plus, you have to admit that the DK and Metroid fans were once again hit with the short end of the stick; Even 12 year olds are aware of it, an acquaintance of mine had her younger brother whine "They should have at least added a space pirate or two!!"
I hope it sells well. Because all huge efforts at impressing the long time gamers have only yielded modest sales.

Being a huge Metroid fan myself, I am satisfied with having Samus go it alone again. Ridley being turned into a playable character would have made him a joke, Ridley wasn't smart enough to pick up items and fight tournament style. He's a giant monstrosity who just wants to destroy everything, so his place in the game makes sense. I always thought that a possible, although unnecessary addition would be one of the Hunters from the two Metroid Prime games they appeared in, however, they were all one shot deals that didn't mean a whole lot to the series. Samus goes it alone, and that's the way I like it personally. I was a little disapointed when only Norfair was announced being another lava level, but my worries were calmed when they also showed off a second Metroid stage from the Prime series, which I thought was going to recieve no recognition whatsoever. Plenty of Zero Mission references including the Zero Suit, the Subspace Emmisary.. I mean I could go on and on... there are so many more important things that they remembered to include, and it all looks like it turned out really well.

Also happen to be a big Donkey Kong Country fan, and they finally got it on the money. Donkey Kong isn't the big oaf that he has been in the Mario series anymore with Diddy Kong at his side. The Donkey Kong influence in the stages, and music is leaps and bounds vs. any effort there has been to reference DKC since they stopped making them.

Meta-Knight, Dedede, New Ganondorf, Wolf and Snake are all new characters that I'm supremely impressed with.

Every single previous Smash Bros. character having their moves and attacks tweaked is another thing that impresses me. I was relieved to see my old favorites make their returns, as I was worried they were going to get shafted.

I guess some people just got what they wanted. These are some of the things I appreciate about the ample roster. Sure, there were characters that I wished for, but y'know, it was a gamble. Couldn't have everybodies characters there, and I understood that from day one. If one can say that there are clones, I still say that 30 some characters is huge, and 5 extra clones is just bonus material vs. no clones and just 30 characters.

But whether it's the stages being so dynamic, the character roster being too small, the concentration on items, the Subspace Emissary (a huge single player adventure that people are blaming for lack of content elsewhere), the Wi-Fi... it just feels like people are concentrating on the negative and it's been like this since we seen the first screenshots. People crying that Kirby didn't change much. Please. You can only put so many graphics into a small pink ball. It's just disappointing is all when you compare it to other Nintendo efforts in recent that this game isn't more appreciated. They did their very best, and I appreciate the fact that I'm going to have years of enjoyment for $49.99. That's like the price of 5 movie tickets without popcorn, 10 hours of enjoyment, vs. 1000's of hours of enjoyment like Melee did. Destroys mostly any other game on the Wii and matches the best efforts of other consoles arguably, and still, people concentrate on the negative. It's just blows my mind is all.

It's sad is all. I hope it's just a phase. I'm not saying people are not allowed to express disappointment, but I'm just disappointed at all the disappointment and quite frankly don't understand it. And if Brawl even passes with modest sales, that won't be enough to encourage Nintendo that they did something right. They did do something right, they are giving us a great game that doesn't just cash out on the Touch Generation. If we want to see more of this, we have to show support, otherwise no more Zelda, no more Metroid, just: Mario Party and Brain Games for the rest of Nintendo's history.
 

sfox8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
276
It's sad is all. I hope it's just a phase. I'm not saying people are not allowed to express disappointment, but I'm just disappointed at all the disappointment and quite frankly don't understand it. And if Brawl even passes with modest sales, that won't be enough to encourage Nintendo that they did something right. They did do something right, they are giving us a great game that doesn't just cash out on the Touch Generation. If we want to see more of this, we have to show support, otherwise no more Zelda, no more Metroid, just: Mario Party and Brain Games for the rest of Nintendo's history.
It's been said already, but regardless of how "angry" people get with this game, it'll still sell exceptionally well. Smashboards only makes up a SMALL percentage of the community. You can go around to different boards and see that a lot of people are very happy with the game and even the roster. On top of that, there are the people that don't care for the internet message boards who just love the game, and don't even KNOW that anything's been leaked yet. They'll still buy the game. And that makes up the highest percentage, along with the casual gamers who don't care and just want to have the game and play it.

In no way will this game sell "bad." At least not compared to the other Wii games out right now.

I assure you this is just a phase that we're going through. We're disappointed because we didn't have that surprise factor with the roster, that we would have had if the characters that were announced EARLY, were announced NOW. It'll pass and a few weeks after it releases in America, we'll all be focusing on unlocking characters, challenges, arranging tournaments via real life and Wi-Fi and even mastering all the new techniques that we'll have discovered in a few weeks.
 

BluLuigi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 31, 2008
Messages
5
A Blend of Old and New: Order Matters

The problem isn't that.
Seriously.

The problem is that Sora team revealed too many Newcomers as starters, and we expected more Newcomers as hidden characters. That's all.

If Pokemon Trainer, for example, was a hidden character the whole people aren't be so disappointed.

That was the problem.
I agree... The starting roster packs more of a punch than the final roster (not sure thats possible), only because the hidden characters are somewhat lackluster. In a game that centers around gameplay, innovation is something that players seek in their games; so despite the hidden characters been less on par than anticipated, the overall roster sums up to a healthy innovative pool of intuitiveness. Characters like P.Trainer, Metaknight, Pit , Olimar, Sonic, and Snake bring new gameplay atop an already masterful foundation... Most people will spend more time playing with the full roster than the starting roster anyway so its just a matter of time until everybody can get into the new smash groove. :)


[FIRST POST! I've been following the site on Brawl speculation for months and finally took the time to register... better late than never...] :dizzy:
 

Spellman

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 18, 2007
Messages
623
Location
Brickway
I assure you this is just a phase that we're going through. We're disappointed because we didn't have that surprise factor with the roster, that we would have had if the characters that were announced EARLY, were announced NOW. It'll pass and a few weeks after it releases in America, we'll all be focusing on unlocking characters, challenges, arranging tournaments via real life and Wi-Fi and even mastering all the new techniques that we'll have discovered in a few weeks.

In no way will this game sell "bad." At least not compared to the other Wii games out right now.

I assure you this is just a phase that we're going through. We're disappointed because we didn't have that surprise factor with the roster, that we would have had if the characters that were announced EARLY, were announced NOW. It'll pass and a few weeks after it releases in America, we'll all be focusing on unlocking characters, challenges, arranging tournaments via real life and Wi-Fi and even mastering all the new techniques that we'll have discovered in a few weeks.
I hope so! My predictions are out in the park right now, I've been saying it will outsell Halo 3, and I've been fearing it will sell modestly like the rest of the good games on the Wii.

I've also considered the fact that while it may not have an extraordinary launch, the fever will be viral, and people who see the game in action will want it themselves, I mean it has no imitators, so it will probably sell stronger over time.

But don't worry, people like me will blow over once things settle down.
 

DTR

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
211
Location
My House
after reading only the 1st page... i think you ppl need to stop *****ing so much. All youve done is complain so far. I dont recall people complaining about the melee roster when it came out, so why should we pick on brawl? I guess 10 new characters isnt enough for you and i feel sooooooo terrible that your stupid characters like ridley, geno, and isaac didnt make it. I hope you do realize that those 3, as well as others, never made much sense in the 1st place.
 

joeysmash

Smash Ace
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
921
Location
Savannah/Milledgeville GA
NNID
papakarcher
In all truth, this roster would be FINE if

Toon link had original moves

Falco, Wolf, Ness, all had MORE original moves AND final smashes.
Ganondorf had no relation to Caption Falcon at all.

Rob is a great WTF character... so no i think hes fine as the guy
 

PrettyGoodYear

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
1,792
Location
Panama, Panama, Central America...
People don't understand that the "Wolf is not technically a clone" is even worse, as it means they could've used the full time to develop a character instead of making a similar canine.

Then again, Wolf does have some cloneage.
 

mach1na

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
18
To be honest, i was hopping for some funky character like geno and stuff. But i knew it was kinda impossible to have all the funky character i whanted, or it would looks like the "google image roster" with tons of character. Im pretty happy with this roster even if theres a couple of clone. King Dedede, falco thats all i whanted or maybe geno but its okay.
 

Magmar's Wrath

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
208
Location
In a house.
The people bashing the topic and those supporting it aren't getting it, and they never will get it. Know why? Because their arguements are not fact, reason, encouragement, or even comfort. They are INSULTS! Most people who disagree withe the topic are being rude jerks who's arguement goes like this:

Topic Supporter - "I dissaprove of them making two characters based off Fox."
Disagreer - "Krystal sucks, you ungrateful furry.
Topic Supporter - "They had 3 years, 100+ people team, two delays and a wide variety of characters to choose from."
Disagreer - "Which proves they worked, you whiny child."
Topic Supporter - "They had polls and character requests, where ones like Geno, Ridley and Krystal scored very high."
Disagreer - "Haha, those characters are stupid, and you're stupid for liking them."
Topic Supporter - "They had enough time to make original characters rather than clones and semi-clones."
Disagreer - "Wolf's Forward B makes him go up a little, therefore, he's not a clone and you're a drone."

I say to heck with trying to argue with these troll boys! They aren't going to listen to reason or debate! This is like trying to explain to a toddler in Toys 'R Us why he cannot have that toy; he won't listen, he just wants what he wants.

I am so dissapointed with the roster, I kept trying to tell myself it wasn't true. 3 years, character suggestion polls, the -creator's- character list, 100+ man team (most of which were Melee fans), wide variety of characters, saying they'll include more female characters and more 3rd party charcters, a two month delay, and fans who have waited almost 6 years for this game...

And we get 6 clones/semi-clones, a limited 35 characters, and few from the top of the most wanted list. Seriously, it's like a slapdash roof on top of a great-looking house. The worst part is, you got people who think it's the greatest roof there is, and will fervently insult anyone who says otherwise.

Save your breath on the children who won't listen to reason. We know why the roster is bad, let them feel like they're superior because they can insult people on the internet.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
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Feb 14, 2007
Messages
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In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
They didn't have three years >.< Sakurai only started about 2 and a half years ago, and for a while he had NO TEAM. Wolf is NOT a clone, his FS is the same and his Nuetral B is similar(to Zamus more than anything >_>) ALL of his other attacks(save his Down B, I haven't seen that one yet) are different. And think of it like this, if they HAD put Krystal in the game, don't you think she would have probably been a clone too?

The worst part is, you got people who think it's the greatest roof there is, and will fervently insult anyone who says otherwise.

Save your breath on the children who won't listen to reason. We know why the roster is bad, let them feel like they're superior because they can insult people on the internet.
The irony here, its too much, I think Im actually going to die laughing.
 

mach1na

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 25, 2007
Messages
18
To be honest, i was hopping for some funky character like geno and stuff. But i knew it was kinda impossible to have all the funky character i whanted, or it would looks like the "google image roster" with tons of character. Im pretty happy with this roster even if theres a couple of clone. King Dedede, falco thats all i whanted or maybe geno but its okay.
 

Krell

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 5, 2007
Messages
441
Location
Wilkes-Barre, PA
Characters not doing what they should and neglecting a few characters harmed Brawl's roster greatly. I don't think it was unreasonable to believe that Isaac had a fair chance. He's perfect for Brawl. But I won't even get started on that....
I admit, though, most of the disappointment stems from excess hype. I expected downers but I wasn't even braced for what we got. I'm liking it more and more, though, and everybody else will too.
 

sfox8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
276
They didn't have three years >.< Sakurai only started about 2 and a half years ago, and for a while he had NO TEAM. Wolf is NOT a clone, his FS is the same and his Nuetral B is similar(to Zamus more than anything >_>) ALL of his other attacks(save his Down B, I haven't seen that one yet) are different. And think of it like this, if they HAD put Krystal in the game, don't you think she would have probably been a clone too?



The irony here, its too much, I think Im actually going to die laughing.
Way to completely prove Magmar's Wrath's point... =|

And I don't see how Krystal could be a Fox clone. She has no similarities to Fox at all. She doesn't use a gun, but a staff. I think she would have no choice but to have at least a somewhat original moveset. There are no other characters that have moves similar to hers for them to base off of. Unless they completely removed all of her roots from Starfox Adventures, then there's a pretty high chance that she would have had an original moveset...
 

Magmar's Wrath

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
208
Location
In a house.
They didn't have three years >.< Sakurai only started about 2 and a half years ago, and for a while he had NO TEAM. Wolf is NOT a clone, his FS is the same and his Nuetral B is similar(to Zamus more than anything >_>) ALL of his other attacks(save his Down B, I haven't seen that one yet) are different. And think of it like this, if they HAD put Krystal in the game, don't you think she would have probably been a clone too?
Wolf is a clone. His B is a shooter, his B-Forward is a dash, his B-Up is a quick Fox Fire, his B-Down is a reflector, his forward smash moves him forward, and he uses a Landmaster for his FS. Therefore, he's a semi-clone; he has similiar but slightly different moves.

Krystal wields a staff, has dinosaur friends, has psionic abilities, and making a female a clone of a male would make her look weird. No, she won't be a clone.

The irony here, its too much, I think Im actually going to die laughing.
And thus you prove my point that you, and most of those arguing with the topic, are not going to be civilized. I've read all the pages, it's nothing but insults, cheap shots at characters and posters, and being condescending. You're not debating a point, you're degrading people. We don't want that.
 

sfox8

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jul 16, 2006
Messages
276
And thus you prove my point that you, and most of those arguing with the topic, are not going to be civilized. I've read all the pages, it's nothing but insults, cheap shots at characters and posters, and being condescending. You're not debating a point, you're degrading people. We don't want that.
You win at life. :']
 

Azamgi

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 5, 2008
Messages
22
Alas, this is true.

But I'm not so sure they didn't care, if you know what I mean.

Having the same moveset with different stats can be interesting. It's not like they're the exact same characters, though I do agree it is a bit disappointing.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
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In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Wolf is a clone. His B is a shooter, his B-Forward is a dash, his B-Up is a quick Fox Fire, his B-Down is a reflector, his forward smash moves him forward, and he uses a Landmaster for his FS. Therefore, he's a semi-clone; he has similiar but slightly different moves.

Krystal wields a staff, has dinosaur friends, has psionic abilities, and making a female a clone of a male would make her look weird. No, she won't be a clone.
Samus' B is a shooter, OMG, CLONE CLONE. His UpB is NOTHING like Fox's, its more like Marths if anything, and so what if his forward smash moves him forward. So does Kirby's and Link's. The fact that the attack properties are similar doesn't mean they are the same.

And thus you prove my point that you, and most of those arguing with the topic, are not going to be civilized. I've read all the pages, it's nothing but insults, cheap shots at characters and posters, and being condescending. You're not debating a point, you're degrading people. We don't want that.
IM BEING CONDESCENDING? You act superior by asserting baseless facts and then insult everyone who doesn't agree with you. You have to admit, the hypocrisy in your last statement was a bit much.

Edit: Oh, and Krystal doesn't really use a staff >_> FOX used it all through Adventures, and then Krystal picked up some more.....advanced weaponry for Assult and DS. And besides, her model is close enough to Fox/Falco's, there would have been nothing stopping Sakurai from making her a clone.
 

MajinNecro69

Smash Ace
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Messages
657
Also, let's not forget the myriad of advanced techs they got rid of (L-Cancelling, Wavedashing), as well as TRIPPING RANDOMLY WHEN RUNNING
>.>
<.<
>.<
 

Magmar's Wrath

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
208
Location
In a house.
Samus' B is a shooter, OMG, CLONE CLONE. His UpB is NOTHING like Fox's, its more like Marths if anything, and so what if his forward smash moves him forward. So does Kirby's and Link's. The fact that the attack properties are similar doesn't mean they are the same.
You're not getting it. Wolf's moves are very similar to Fox's, ALL of his special moves are similar to Fox's. And you're actually saying he's not a clone because Samus can shoot for her B attack? Honestly, do you even get the point here?

Fox shoots a laser gun for his B. Wolf shoots a laster gun for his B. They're just different laser blasts.

Fox has a quick charge for his B-Forward. Wolf has a quick charge for his B-Forward.

Fox has a charge-aim-fire for his B-Up. Wolf has a charge-aim-fire for his B-Up.

Fox and Wolf have reflectors for their B-Down.

Is it THAT hard to tell the difference? Just because the style, look and speed of these abilities are different doesn't make them altogether different abilities..

Oh, and last I checked, Kirby and Link did not move forward from using Hammer and Boomerang. At least nowhere near as far as Fox's and Wolf's, because the whole of Star Fox/Wolf's B-Forward is to dart foward!!

IM BEING CONDESCENDING? You act superior by asserting baseless facts and then insult everyone who doesn't agree with you. You have to admit, the hypocrisy in your last statement was a bit much.
Baseless facts? Like what, perchance? I mean, besides the clone/semi-clone arguement.

The point is, there hasn't been a strong counter-arguement for this topic. Go back and read the posts against the topic. They all have one or more of the following points:

1.) You're whiners because you don't like the final roster.
2.) You like that character? He/She/It sucks.
3.) They're not clones because their moves are slightly different.

The topic is about the lack of original characters and the lack of original movesets. While those on it try to debate this as best they can, the ones against it are being insulting. No one wants to argue with someone who makes personal jabs rather than real points.

And it doesn't even make sense why people against the topic are being so rude. Did you people invent the characters? Did you make the movesets or the graphic designs? Why are people who like the roster so hostile to those who don't?
 

Zant3tsuken

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 21, 2004
Messages
351
Location
Melbourne, Aus
If they had taken out Falco, Wolf, and Lucas, and instead put in, for example, Krystal, Ridley, and Simon Belmont or something, they would have used only slightly more development effort and the roster would have been twice as good as what we got.
People that honestly think this are not thinking long term. A lot of people are let down right now. But how about a year from now... 3 years? Assuming that people want the shelf life out of Brawl that they got from Melee, we want the game to be polished, balanced and well designed. What the OP states here is a flat out lie. Falco, Wolf and Lucas are all built on templates that were already established. They would've taken a fraction of the time that it would've taken to design, implement, test and balance Krystal, Ridley and Simon Belmont. The fact that the dev time was quite a lot longer than Melee and the roster not staggeringly larger gives me faith that we won't have the more unique experimental characters (mewtwo, G&W) sitting at the bottom tier.

Of course if a year or two passes, I'm wrong and the game is as tier biased as Melee then I apologise (far far) in advance. Same goes for if the lack of tech makes this game not worth playing competitively at all.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
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In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Im just going to say it one more time, Wolfs UpB, is not the same as Fox's. I went and checked, alot, cus I thought, "Maybe he's right, maybe Im just not seeing it," but no, its not the same. Not only is the animation different, the attack over all is different. Its much faster, and only goes straight up for the 3 different vids I've seen(granted, they were n00bs, no proof that it actually only goes straight up, but I go with what I've got) You have to realize that there is a difference between Fox/Wolf and something like Link/Toon Link. Toon Link is nothing more than a pallet swap for Link. He has ALL of the same moves, ALL of the same animations. The only difference is in the power, knock back trajectory and range. Fox/Wolf have totally different animations. The fact that they seem a little similar does not make them the same. If it wasn't Wolf, if it was, I don't know, Random Character X, with all of Wolf's moves you wouldn't have said anything. Its just the fact that Wolf is from the same series and seems a little like Fox that you want to immediately jump on him. I've always wondered why it is people haven't jumped on the Ike/Marth thing. Their Neutral B and their Down B's are the same, as are quite a few of their basic attacks. Doesn't that, in your meaning of the word, make them clones?
 

Magmar's Wrath

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 23, 2007
Messages
208
Location
In a house.
Personally, I'm tired of people saying it's 'your own fault because you hyped it up for yourself'.

No. No no no. The creators said that there would be more female characters (none, if you don't count ZZS), more 3rd party characters after Sonic and Snake (none), they did several polls and requests for the the most popular characters (several of the highest didn't get in), and that they had been working so hard on this game for almost 3 years that they had to delay it two months to finish it.

The fact is, the creators led us to believe that this would be a game for the fans of Melee, for fans of Nintendo. They brought on the hype. The problem isn't R.O.B. or that the single-player mode is too long. The problem is, they made it public how hard they were working on this game, how much fanbase and game series were going in, how they were listening to the fans' requests; heck, the staff was mainly Melee fans.

When you make all that evident, work on the game for almost three years, and have a website that updates every weekday to show what's new and improved in the game, you give people the sense that so much effort is going into the game.

The people upset here didn't want clones or semi-clones, they didn't want the most obvious and highly-requested characters ignored while lower ones were added. We wanted quality characters, and why shouldn't we have got them? What's wrong with wanting the most out of the game you want most? Not many in this topic have threatened or contemplated murder or boycotted this game.

We're not whiners. We're SSB fans who wanted more out a game that was hyped by the creators to have more.
 

PrettyGoodYear

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
1,792
Location
Panama, Panama, Central America...
IM BEING CONDESCENDING? You act superior by asserting baseless facts and then insult everyone who doesn't agree with you. You have to admit, the hypocrisy in your last statement was a bit much.
I posted this above:

"People don't understand that the "Wolf is not technically a clone" is even worse, as it means they could've used the full time to develop a character instead of making a similar canine.

Then again, Wolf does have major cloneage."
 

Jake13

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 20, 2006
Messages
1,082
Location
Houston, Texas
If clones are what are stopping you from having fun, then why bother playing the game in the first place?

If you've ever played fox and falco, gannon and falcon, doc and mario, etc. all in the same day or even at all, then stop complaining, just take it for what it is, and enjoy it.

(This won't matter to anyone, but it felt nice to say.)
 

Magmar's Wrath

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Nov 23, 2007
Messages
208
Location
In a house.
Personally, I think that the addition of ~16 original movesets is pretty good.
It's not bad, of course. They worked hard on those movesets. They gave Olimar that neat Pikmin set up, Meta Knight gorgeous sword play, Sonic's spindashing and kicking, and ROB an original moveset.

So why could they not have given that same attention to ALL the characters? Why? Why did they have to make semi-clones out of characters like WW Link, Ganondorf, and Falco, who could have had so much more? Why did Fox, Falco, and Wolf all have to have the same Final Smash?

Im just going to say it one more time, Wolfs UpB, is not the same as Fox's. I went and checked, alot, cus I thought, "Maybe he's right, maybe Im just not seeing it," but no, its not the same. Not only is the animation different, the attack over all is different. Its much faster, and only goes straight up for the 3 different vids I've seen(granted, they were n00bs, no proof that it actually only goes straight up, but I go with what I've got) You have to realize that there is a difference between Fox/Wolf and something like Link/Toon Link. Toon Link is nothing more than a pallet swap for Link. He has ALL of the same moves, ALL of the same animations. The only difference is in the power, knock back trajectory and range. Fox/Wolf have totally different animations. The fact that they seem a little similar does not make them the same. If it wasn't Wolf, if it was, I don't know, Random Character X, with all of Wolf's moves you wouldn't have said anything. Its just the fact that Wolf is from the same series and seems a little like Fox that you want to immediately jump on him. I've always wondered why it is people haven't jumped on the Ike/Marth thing. Their Neutral B and their Down B's are the same, as are quite a few of their basic attacks. Doesn't that, in your meaning of the word, make them clones?
Let's say you're right, and that Wolf is altogether different than Fox in his B+Up move. Why did Wolf have to have a Landmaster as his Final Smash? If he's going to be his own character, why give him the exact same FS as Fox? And why, pray tell, is he so very important that he has to be the last character unlocked? What made him so special over, say, someone who has his/her/it's own game series?

The reason why people like me are bitter about Wolf is because he still is LIKE Fox. He has Fox's body structure, his B+Down, and most importantly, his Final Smash. Maybe, just maybe, if his Final Smash had been different completely, there wouldn't be so much upset.

Oh, and about WW Link and Ganondorf, yes, those are just as bad. Ganondorf should have been redone completely, he should never have been like C. Falcon in the first place. WW Link should have been changed in so many ways too. Heck, just the leaf would have been nice, I always see it when I see him.

Clones don't stop us from having fun. They just dissapoint us, because we know they should have been better.
 

zPhoenixExz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Messages
33
Location
Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
Personally, I'm tired of people saying it's 'your own fault because you hyped it up for yourself'.

No. No no no. The creators said that there would be more female characters (none, if you don't count ZZS), more 3rd party characters after Sonic and Snake (none), they did several polls and requests for the the most popular characters (several of the highest didn't get in), and that they had been working so hard on this game for almost 3 years that they had to delay it two months to finish it.

The fact is, the creators led us to believe that this would be a game for the fans of Melee, for fans of Nintendo. They brought on the hype. The problem isn't R.O.B. or that the single-player mode is too long. The problem is, they made it public how hard they were working on this game, how much fanbase and game series were going in, how they were listening to the fans' requests; heck, the staff was mainly Melee fans.

When you make all that evident, work on the game for almost three years, and have a website that updates every weekday to show what's new and improved in the game, you give people the sense that so much effort is going into the game.

The people upset here didn't want clones or semi-clones, they didn't want the most obvious and highly-requested characters ignored while lower ones were added. We wanted quality characters, and why shouldn't we have got them? What's wrong with wanting the most out of the game you want most? Not many in this topic have threatened or contemplated murder or boycotted this game.

We're not whiners. We're SSB fans who wanted more out a game that was hyped by the creators to have more.
Stop shoving words into developers mouth...I still remember what was said was "HOPEFULLY one or more 3rd party char than snake" (we got sonic), "will TRY to cut down on the number of clones" (we got one less out of a higher number roster" and nothing about female characters.

And the game did live up to the hype of "to have more", as in more in depth single player, more collectibles, more stages, more music, more modes...
 

sakuraZaKi

The Ultimate Sore Loser ♡
Joined
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I'm filling in for my mom at the inn we run~
NNID
taeZaKi
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^ Even for Falco its the same. Since my eyes have seen the Landmaster as Fox's FS, I was expecting Falco's to be something like an Arwing. After all, he's the plane-lover.

No I'm not arguing/debating... just pointing my personal feelings for the FS
 

PrettyGoodYear

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
1,792
Location
Panama, Panama, Central America...
If clones are what are stopping you from having fun, then why bother playing the game in the first place?

If you've ever played fox and falco, gannon and falcon, doc and mario, etc. all in the same day or even at all, then stop complaining, just take it for what it is, and enjoy it.

(This won't matter to anyone, but it felt nice to say.)
As a Zelda fan, Ganondorf is an open wound in the roster.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
Personally, I'm tired of people saying it's 'your own fault because you hyped it up for yourself'.

No. No no no. The creators said that there would be more female characters (none, if you don't count ZZS), more 3rd party characters after Sonic and Snake (none), they did several polls and requests for the the most popular characters (several of the highest didn't get in), and that they had been working so hard on this game for almost 3 years that they had to delay it two months to finish it.

The fact is, the creators led us to believe that this would be a game for the fans of Melee, for fans of Nintendo. They brought on the hype. The problem isn't R.O.B. or that the single-player mode is too long. The problem is, they made it public how hard they were working on this game, how much fanbase and game series were going in, how they were listening to the fans' requests; heck, the staff was mainly Melee fans.

When you make all that evident, work on the game for almost three years, and have a website that updates every weekday to show what's new and improved in the game, you give people the sense that so much effort is going into the game.

The people upset here didn't want clones or semi-clones, they didn't want the most obvious and highly-requested characters ignored while lower ones were added. We wanted quality characters, and why shouldn't we have got them? What's wrong with wanting the most out of the game you want most? Not many in this topic have threatened or contemplated murder or boycotted this game.

We're not whiners. We're SSB fans who wanted more out a game that was hyped by the creators to have more.
Just a few corrections, not trying to be mean or anything. Sakurai(after Snake was announced) stated that he would put 1-2 more third party characters in. He followed through on that. Second, Sakurai did not have as much time and man-power as people keep saying he did. When the game was first announced, it was a surprise to him because he didn't know it was in planning(technically it wasn't >.>) and he did not know that he would be making the game himself. And at one point, his ENTIRE team quit, so he had NO people to work with. So he hasn't been working non-stop for 3 years on Brawl, if anything it was probably around 2(maybe less) Third, and I know Im gonna get some heat for this one, characters like Krystal, Geno and Ridley are not as popular as people on this board would lead you to believe. Yes, I love these characters(well, not Krystal, she just reminds me of how much Star Fox has sucked recently) but to be honest Ridley isn't that popular, nor is Krystal, and Geno is owned by Square. The characters that are most popular have been in Smash since day one, Mario, Link, Pikachu, Kirby, THEY are the big names for nintendo. The reason you see characters like Pokemon Trainer is because of the D/P. Lucus is from a franchise that is HUGE in Japan. Sonic. Well, I'll never understand Sonic. He's hugely popular, but ALL of his games for the last few years have sucked to an amazing degree, but I guess people still like him:ohwell: Olimar was from a franchise that was big here in the states, and even bigger in Japan. As for ROB, well, what do you expect. Sakurai likes putting WTF characters in the game. It can be argued that Ness was a WTF character in SSB as most people didn't really know who he was before then.
 

Dew Rag

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2006
Messages
883
Location
Champs of Paign
... let's just say most of our disappointment comes from the loss of depth in gameplay that we had in melee

but hey we might find out new things and techniques that might just make this game run faster than N64 speed lol
 

flyinfilipino

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2007
Messages
4,319
Location
North Carolina
So why could they not have given that same attention to ALL the characters? Why? Why did they have to make semi-clones out of characters like WW Link, Ganondorf, and Falco, who could have had so much more? Why did Fox, Falco, and Wolf all have to have the same Final Smash?
Who knows except for the development team. Maybe Sakurai will give another interview explaining. But we've gotten plenty, so it's time to start accepting for the rest of our lives I guess.
 

Pink Reaper

Real Name No Gimmicks
BRoomer
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
8,333
Location
In the Air, Using Up b as an offensive move
I posted this above:

"People don't understand that the "Wolf is not technically a clone" is even worse, as it means they could've used the full time to develop a character instead of making a similar canine.

Then again, Wolf does have major cloneage."
Yeah, I saw that, but I ignored it. You have to admit, the cloneage is minor outside of his FS and his Down B. He's less of a clone than Luigi is.
 

zPhoenixExz

Smash Cadet
Joined
Mar 26, 2005
Messages
33
Location
Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada
Most people don't realize that in the end the developer don't have complete control of release dates and such. Those control goes to the businessmen. There will always a point where those people think its not worth it to delay the game and spend more $$$ yet again for a minority of people (us).

If any thing's to blame....blame human nature for being greedy, NOT the developers.
 

gsarany

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 27, 2005
Messages
53
Location
Canada B.C.
When I saw Toon Link I got excited to see what his moves were going to be. I thought he would be different since Sakurai stated there were no clones this time around. I saw a video of him fighitng ganon on a boat. Link used his bow, I thought no big deal maybe its just one move he has similiar to link. Then after he started tossing bombs, then boomerang and spin attack. Even his A moves were the same. I was pretty disapointed aftering seeing a clone when the creator promised they were going to be removed. Ganondorf was just walking around using b-up the whole tme. I was reliefed for ganon because it was a different b-up then captain falcons. I hope im right about ganon about not being a clone of CF because if he is then wtf was Sakurai and his team doing since they changed the release date. Im not mad that there are clones Im mad because they had so much time and this is the best they could do.
 

SlashandBurn

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 27, 2007
Messages
21
Location
A land down under, handing holidayers vegemite san
I agree with a lot of what's been said. I think what people are upset about is that Brawl truly did have the chance to be one of the top five games in HISTORY, and it is almost there except for one fatal flaw: the roster. Now there is no such thing as a perfect smash roster, because people will always disagree with character selections and the movesets they are given. Brawl's roster is a let down because of the following points:

1. Two clones of the same character (Fox, Falco, Wolf)

Now, clones are alright if they are quote unquote "Luigified", meaning that though their core moveset is based off another character, their play style and moveset differentiate themselves enough to make them unique from the character from which they are cloned. As the term implies, Luigi is a prime example of this. Though he borrows some of Mario's moves, he has plenty of moves that are different and he also has his own unique final smash (though i'm not quite sure how some sort of LSD flashback is representitive of Luigi). Falco seems to be extremely similar to Fox, with the fact that he throws his reflector being one of the few differences. Wolf also seems to play quite similarly to Fox, but from what i've heard and seen he has more uniqueness to him. The worst thing about this is that if Sakurai wanted to have 3 total Starfox representitives, Krystal would have been a much more unique choice compared to Falco/Wolf, and would've been a character style we hadn't seen before.

2. Clones for the sake of Clones

Almost everyone in the smash community new Ganondorf was coming back. You don't have to be the head cashier at Walmart to figure that out. One of the biggest problems people had with Melee was that Ganondorf was a clone of Captain Falcon of all people. All through Brawl's development people were clamouring for Ganondorf to have a new unique moveset with a sword and inspired from TP. There was plenty of time for Sakurai and his team to come up with a unique sword based moveset for him, but now we know he is still a clone through and through.

Toon Link is another example of this. The Windwaker series would've provided plenty of inspiration for unique moveset involving the Skull Hammer and other items. But he is a clone of Link, but personally from what i've seen TL looks to be a fitting replacement for Young Link and seems even quicker.

3. The lack of Effort
I'll summarise like this. Melee had 26 selectable characters with 20 unique movesets with just over a year of development. The product was a huge success with critics and fans despite being rushed. Brawl has 39 characters with 35 unique movesets. While that is a huge improvement over Melee, Brawl had a lot more time to be create a roster that would please fans and be remembered years from now. Instead we got three Foxes (essentially), two Falcons, Two Links and ROB. This is not out of spite because I didn't get the characters that i wanted. If i would've, then people would've been upset that K.Rool got in over Isaac and Takamaru, and that Banjo/Kazooie is taking up a third party spot that could've gone to Megaman, Geno or Knuckles (my condolences Panda). The point is that while the roster isn't awful, it could've been a lot better with some time and effort, and we got our hopes up only to be let down.
 

Digital Angel

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
Messages
304
People need to understand that no one cares how much you *****, whine, and complain about the roster.
 
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