People complain about the three clones...

[EgeDal]

The thing that we can't possibly know right now is how much effort went into people like Dark Pit and Lucina. Dark Pit may not have even needed a new model. Lucina might have only needed some changes to Marth's, but the process of modeling and rigging would still be great.

If they spent as many resources on Lucina as they did on everyone else in the game, that's just stupid in my mind. I'm sorry, but that means instead of spending all of that to come up with something like Duck Hunt Dog (completely new, brings a ton to the table and is a completely different character), they just remade Marth with a new model and voice, which is essentially what Lucina is.

Why wasn't Male Wii Fit Trainer made into an entirely new character at that point?

Though in reality, Lucina and Dark Pit are probably the only true exceptions to all of this honestly. He's the only one who is ACTUALLY a separate entity. Everyone else, including Zero Suit Samus, are just the same character.

We shouldn't even need to have conversations like this about character selection rosters in the first place in my opinion. If this happens there's a problem. Remember, Sakurai explicitly stated that no characters like them would exist in Smash 4. If we STILL got Dark Pit, Lucina and Doc after that, what are Sakurai's definitions of a "clone"?

Male Wii Fit trainer is exactly like Female, that's why it's a costume, like Alph, but Dark Pit and Lucina, and Dr.Mario has different moves or hitbox or whatever, that's what Sakurai said.

I don't discuss this ok, but Dr.Mario is the dumbest character, all the way.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But you are not allow to use custom moves in online and tournaments... If custom moves are allow...

Custom moves (and Miis) are only banned in "With Anyone" online mode. In offline play and "With Friends" online play you can use whatever you want.

 

[KingBroly]

Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina are better now as clones than they would be as alts because they actually bring something to the gameplay.

They were going to be in the game anyway as alts, so between being a purely aesthetic change and being a variation of an existing character, what is the one that adds to the game more?

I just feel that with the implementation of custom movesets the point of clones goes away.

The idea of Lucina being a clone because she plays differently? Fine. But because she's couple of pixels shorter than Marth? BULL

Dr. Mario being a clone isn't that bad since he doesn't have Fludd, but I'm store sore about it.

Dark Pit is a REAL missed opportunity though, and as is shouldn't be there.

 

[MajorMajora]

I just feel that with the implementation of custom movesets the point of clones goes away.

The idea of Lucina being a clone because she plays differently? Fine. But because she's couple of pixels shorter than Marth? BULL

Dr. Mario being a clone isn't that bad since he doesn't have Fludd, but I'm store sore about it.

Dark Pit is a REAL missed opportunity though, and as is shouldn't be there.

The thing about custom moves is that they only change the 4 specials. Dark Pit and Lucina change the nature of the normal attacks.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Alph is just a costume. Same hurtboxes and hitboxes. He could've been a completely new playable character, despite having little to no differences like Lucina. Why wasn't he? What about Male Fit Trainer. The Koopalings? (That one pisses me off, they use the Klown Kar so technically nothing is different about them due to that)

Why did Lucina need to be one? They could've kept Lucina's hitboxes just like Marth's and she most likely still would've been her own separate slot.

That is my question.

 

[MajorMajora]

Alph is just a costume. Same hurtboxes and hitboxes. He could've been a completely new playable character, despite having little to no differences like Lucina. Why wasn't he? What about Male Fit Trainer.

Why did Lucina need to be one?

That is my question.

Because she has a gameplay difference. Marth has his sword do the most damage at the tip, while Lucina has the damage the same across her sword.

 

[ThatGuyYouMightKnow]

Because she has a gameplay difference. Marth has his sword do the most damage at the tip, while Lucina has the damage the same across her sword.

Yet Alph and the others didn't get any slight differences despite being completely different characters.

What I'm trying to determine is WHY this is the case or what logic is presented behind these decisions. Lucina didn't need different hitboxes. She could've been a costume and no one would've complained. Yet one tiny change like that and suddenly she needs another workload.

That's just not optimal to me. I CANNOT agree with that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Because she has a gameplay difference. Marth has his sword do the most damage at the tip, while Lucina has the damage the same across her sword.

But that begs the question of why her sword is like that? Why couldn't she just be an alt costume of Marth, tippers and all?

Ninja'd

 

[MajorMajora]

Yet Alph and the others didn't get any slight differences despite being completely different characters.

What I'm trying to determine is WHY this is the case or what logic is presented behind these decisions. Lucina didn't need different hitboxes. She could've been a costume and no one would've complained. Yet one tiny change like that and suddenly she needs another workload.

That's just not optimal to me. I CANNOT agree with that.

I think it took a lot less work than t did to add in say Dr. Mario.

The whole thing was an accident. Sakurai was doing some experimenting and stumbled upon something he really wanted to add, and making another character was the most seamless way of doing it, and to be honest I don't think it took as much work as you'd think.

For Alph, I guess he just didn't have any ideas on how to change him in any meaningful way.

 

[Evello]

(I keep hitting the Like button instead of Reply. Moving on...)

The reason I am against clones is because they are literally moveset buffs/nerfs given their own character slot. Why not just consolidate the two so they have the best properties of both and make the clone an alt costume?

And yes, given the choice of clones or nothing, I would pick nothing.

They have to balance the game, so they can't just endlessly buff characters. They have to give every character strengths and weaknesses. Clones allow the player to have some choice of which buff/debuffs they prefer to play with. For instance I generally like Marth's moveset, but suck at tippers, so I'll probably like Lucina a lot in SSB4.

 

[Deku_Don]

I don't mind clones to some extent. Lucina makes sense for example as her and Marth would have different traits. However Dark Pit is inexcusable and borderline ridiculous. However, even though I question his inclusion, I think it's silly that people are freaking out saying "Why did you put Dark Pit in over Ridley/IC etc?" I think in the case of Doc, Lucina and Dark Pit, we wouldn't have gotten other characters in their places if they weren't in the game.

 

[TryHardOliver]

Wouldn't Ganadorf, Luigi and Falco technically count as clones?

 

[DougX]

Wouldn't Ganadorf, Luigi and Falco technically count as clones?

They're more of what is called "semi-clones" or characters that underwent "Luigification" or something like that. They have some similarities to their original counterparts, but many explicit differences or moves unique to them as well.

 

[TryHardOliver]

They're more of what is called "semi-clones" or characters that underwent "Luigification" or something like that. They have some similarities to their original counterparts, but many explicit differences or moves unique to them as well.

Oh! Okay thank you.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

the only problem I have with Lucina is that she all most the same as Marth and I feel they nerf Marth speed just to put her in this game as her own character, they didn't nerf Pit to put Dark Pit in this game why did they nerf Marth?!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

They have to balance the game, so they can't just endlessly buff characters. They have to give every character strengths and weaknesses. Clones allow the player to have some choice of which buff/debuffs they prefer to play with. For instance I generally like Marth's moveset, but suck at tippers, so I'll probably like Lucina a lot in SSB4.

You're correct it doesn't strictly have to be the better parts of each moveset, but the consolidation in general point stands.

 

[VKatana]

Glad' there's finally a thread about this. My thread about the roster in Character Discussion was getting NO replies. XD Anyway, I support the clones, it's a good way to provide us with more content in the game despite time constraints, and they might just be filler until the Big 3 are added via DLC or linking the two versions of the game (allegedly). The newcomers are amazing enough to justify a few clones for good measure, and it seems like the clones are different enough. Dark Pit is allegedly either unique or just Brawl Pit, Lucina.... eh I dunno. And Dr. Mario has a better combo game, a few altered moves, different strength and move speed, so I'm fine with that. In fact, Dr. Mario in his fully black alt is 100% going to be my main.

 

[simpleglitch]

the only problem I have with Lucina is that she all most the same as Marth and I feel they nerf Marth speed just to put her in this game as her own character, they didn't nerf Pit to put Dark Pit in this game why did they nerf Marth?!

They didn't nerf Marth to but Lucina in. They changes made to Marth were going to happen whether she made it as a clone, Alt costume, or not at all.

 

[VKatana]

Also I'm surprised I haven't seen anyone griping that Mii's got in on the initial roster over the Big 3, considering (except for animations and character models) they require about the same amount of effort to make that the Big 3 would have. My guess would be the NeoGAF leak about syncing the two versions is true, because that would be an incredibly smart way to boost the sales of both versions in tandem.

 

[Kikkipoptart12]

They didn't nerf Marth to but Lucina in. They changes made to Marth were going to happen whether she made it as a clone, Alt costume, or not at all.

well the changes made to him feel very unnecessary just like ness final smash change, some of that time could have gone into changing Falco final smash instead of changing things that didn't need to be changed.

 

[simpleglitch]

well the changes made to him feel very unnecessary just like ness final smash change, some of that time could have gone into changing Falco final smash instead of changing things that didn't need to be changed.

Oh I will agree with you that the changes felt unnecessary for Marth. It is just that it isn't likely they were made due to Lucina. They took a stonger focus in balance this time around, and I think they might have hit Marth a little to hard with the nerf balance stick :/

 

[EdgeTheLucas]

My problem with Lucina, Dr. Mario, and Dark Pit is that while they share their moves many animations and attacks with their base, they aren't as well-made and thought out as Melee Falco or Melee Ganondorf. Those 2, despite being very cloney in Melee, felt completely different from Fox and Captain Falcon, respectively. Their attacks sent at different angles, some moves that were useless for Fox and Captain Falcon were now useful for them and vice versa for their bases, some special attacks (Fox's Blaster, Captain Falcon's Falcon Dive) were made wholly different in function for them, and all around they had a lot of thought put into them despite sharing so many moves.

Lucina has been looked into for further inspection. When Sakurai initially unveiled her, he said that she's very similar to Marth, but has power throughout the sword, meaning she has no tipper. As it turns out, now that the game's out, we know that this is literally the only significant difference she has. Sure, her air speed is faster, but that's it. She was so shoehorned in without any real thought other than "She's popular in Japan, and Americans like her too, so let's put her in SOMEWHERE," that it makes her nearly redundant. Her attacks don't even launch at different angles, they act the same as all of Marth's attacks, just without a tipper. I hate this because I like Lucina as a character, she deserved better.

Dr. Mario is buffed Mario again. He was probably included for fans of Melee Mario's moveset, but Sakurai probably still doesn't know that F.L.U.D.D. is still an almost useless move while Dr. Tornado will always have a good use. Dr. Mario's fair still sends opponents upwards, so unlike regular Smash 4 Mario's fair he doesn't need to use it near ledges to KO and can use it anywhere he wants. His Megavitamins are still a more useful projectile because of their better trajectory and that they harass opponents better, making regular Mario's fireballs seem useless by comparison. And his throws are much better save d-throw, which Mario now has over Dr. Mario. Really, all these changes could have been done to regular Mario to make him a better character, because as it stands when comparing the two, Dr. Mario is always gonna be more useful. Thanks to Sakurai's careless reimplementation of him from Melee, he became the version of Mario that makes the other look obsolete once again, and I hate that.

Dark Pit made a lot of people mad. For them, he was the final straw. Not for me, I despise Dr. Mario more than the other 2 clones, who I'm more disappointed with rather than angry at, and it confuses me that more people are mad at him than Dr. Mario, but I digress. For them, it gave Kid Icarus one character too many. Or at least, the decision to add him but not a Donkey Kong, Metroid, or F-Zero character as well left a sour taste in many a fan's mouth. I personally was willing to look past Dark Pit's inclusion if he looked well-done, especially since he could use different weapons from Pit because Uprising had lots of different weapon classes, and because I like Pit's moveset and looked forward to how they could tinker with it for a clone, but he didn't. He still uses a bow for all his normal attacks like Pit does, his special attacks have very little differences from Pit's (only his side-B seems to send at a different angle), and although he holds the Dark Pit Staff in his artwork, he only ever uses it for his Final Smash, acting like Zelda or Sheik's Light Arrow. That's some real Melee Ganondorf artwork crap, which also had him holding a weapon but never using it. Looking at the footage, it makes me sad that his situation is similar to Dr. Mario's in that he looks like a mostly buffed Pit made into a separate character, making the original Pit look almost worhless in comparison, because unlike Dr. Mario he's a different person from Pit, not Pit wearing different clothes. Yes, his character design LOOKS like Pit with dyed hair and wings, but unlike Dr. Mario it's made clear in his game that he's someone else, not just Pit after a trip to the beauty salon. All in all, a giant missed opportunity.

Again, I reiterate that while the OP of this thread used Falco as an example, his case isn't the same because his inclusion had thought put into it, even if he was included last minute, because Sakurai still modified him to be a worthwhile counterpart to Fox--as any Melee / Project M fan will tell ya. These are all filler, and I don't like it.

Edit: No, I don't believe any of these "got in" over anyone else. My disappointment comes from how they all could have been so much more, but aren't.

 

[Cpt.]

In addition, only 4 of the unlockable fighters are newcomers, and 2 of those unlockable newcomers are clones. (Lucina and Dark Pit.) Dr. Mario is also an unlockable clone but he's a veteran. It feels a bit like a slap in the face when there are literally only 2 "Challenger Approaching" screens that don't herald a veteran or an already-existing character gussied up in a different outfit.

I think it have gone over better if a bigger portion of the newcomers, especially the hype ones like Shulk, were also unlockable to balance out the ratios a bit.

Yeah I agree. It really feels like the newcomers aren't that special since you start with most of them.

 

[iRhyiku]

I think the roster is the best we have gotten.
The clones I don't mind atall. infact I prefer the Doc due to his melee moveset.
People want Mewtwo in, he would just be a clone of Lucario with the only difference being the aura damage scale thing wouldnt be there, but people would be fine with that because it's Mewtwo.
I also don't believe in Ridley, as a huge metroid fan that may be odd for me to say, but he would loose what makes Ridley, Ridley. He flies around the map at lightning speed, he's never grounded for too long and ALL of his moves are arial based, there is no way he can translate to a Smash Playable character and still be Ridley. He is a boss and works better that way.

 

[Professor Pumpkaboo]

People just need something to compian about. Happens with every new game

 

[Cpt.]

I think the roster is the best we have gotten.
The clones I don't mind atall. infact I prefer the Doc due to his melee moveset.
People want Mewtwo in, he would just be a clone of Lucario with the only difference being the aura damage scale thing wouldnt be there, but people would be fine with that because it's Mewtwo.
I also don't believe in Ridley, as a huge metroid fan that may be odd for me to say, but he would loose what makes Ridley, Ridley. He flies around the map at lightning speed, he's never grounded for too long and ALL of his moves are arial based, there is no way he can translate to a Smash Playable character and still be Ridley. He is a boss and works better that way.

Clone of Lucario????? When people say this..... it's like have you even played Melee?

 

[nintyplayer]

Wait... Is it confirmed that the Dr. has a tornado instead of a peptobesmol-colored FLUDD spray?

I now want the pepto colored FLUDD. Thanks a lot.
Clones aren't that big of a deal. Forget about them.

 

[Reader]

I don't really like the inclusion of Dark Pit, but complaining won't do any good. That's why I don't waste my life complaining about video game characters. Some of us have more important things in our lives.

 

[VKatana]

I'd rather have a clone of a different character, hell I'd rather have Dr. Mario, Dr. Luigi, and Lucina rather than Dark Pit. He barely looks any different than Pit just appearance wise, and is literally just a palette swap which is pretty lazy I'd say. In addition, 2 additional characters just from ONE game alone is simply too many. I'm not saying Sakurai is partaking in nepotism/favoritism, but even if that game did incredibly well, 2 new reps from it is too many. Dr. Luigi for Sm5sh (it's a joke tho so don't skin me alive yet).

 

[HugoBoss]

I don't necessarily hate the idea of clones, but I'm not the biggest fan of the clones in Smash 4. They weren't necessarily handled well and it feels like a step down from the progress Brawl made. Honestly, I would rather have no "bonus" than roster pandering. If clones take less time than making a newcomer, maybe the short time to make a clone could have been used for more important issues.

Quality>Quantity.

 

[SANCHOCO]

I'd rather have a clone of a different character, hell I'd rather have Dr. Mario, Dr. Luigi, and Lucina rather than Dark Pit. He barely looks any different than Pit just appearance wise, and is literally just a palette swap which is pretty lazy I'd say. In addition, 2 additional characters just from ONE game alone is simply too many. I'm not saying Sakurai is partaking in nepotism/favoritism, but even if that game did incredibly well, 2 new reps from it is too many. Dr. Luigi for Sm5sh (it's a joke tho so don't skin me alive yet).

b..but Dark Pit has a different final smash than pit. He's also more like Pit in Brawl
so Pit = New Pit
Dark Pit=Brawl Pit(but "evil")

Goku for Sm5sh(kidding!)

 

[iRhyiku]

Clone of Lucario????? When people say this..... it's like have you even played Melee?

Indeed I have, I prefer it to Brawl like many others, but his moveset is the same as Lucario's, so i guess you can say Lucario is a clone if you want to be that way :L

 

[simpleglitch]

Indeed I have, I prefer it to Brawl like many others, but his moveset is the same as Lucario's, so i guess you can say Lucario is a clone if you want to be that way :L

*shakes head* mewtwo and lucario have only one move in common, B (shadow ball/aura sphere).
In any case this isn't a mewtwo thread (or lucario for that matter), being the fact that one move in common does not make a clone.

 

[Farorae]

Basically people will always find something to complain about.

 

[True Blue Warrior]

Gonna have to agree. Did not like how the final roster turned out. But still better than brawl roster overall! :D

I actually thought Brawl's roster was the best Smash roster, though.

 

[Cpt.]

Indeed I have, I prefer it to Brawl like many others, but his moveset is the same as Lucario's, so i guess you can say Lucario is a clone if you want to be that way :L

Well you must be trolling.

 

[Ffamran]

Indeed I have, I prefer it to Brawl like many others, but his moveset is the same as Lucario's, so i guess you can say Lucario is a clone if you want to be that way :L

Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball I give you that, but ExtremeSpeed works more like Fire Fox, Teleport works more like Sheik's Vanish, Force Palm is more like Flame Choke, I don't know any moves that work like Confusion, Double Team is just another Counter, and I don't know anyone who has a move like Disable. Since everyone has a recovery move, then Lucario and Mewtwo have only two similar Specials. As for normals and smashes, I'm pretty sure Lucario and Mewtwo don't share anything.

 

[Aogami]

Seriously has nobody here been watching the streams!?

Lucina is faster in both movement and attack and she's lighter so her jump and up B are slightly higher and the majority of attacks auto cancel giving her a much better air game in contrast to Marth who has lag on a lot of moves and all streamers are pretty much in agreement that Lucina is the better character compared to Marth.

Doc. Is the most different of the three since he has his melee moveset compared to Mario who has his moveset from brawl so three of their moves different so.trying to say that he's a copy and paste is the same as saying that to Luigi and is just ridiculous.

Dark Pit while the most similar of the 3 has his playstyle closer to brawl Pit since Pit has had a lot of changes in this game.

So all of you saying these characters should have been alts are nothing but Blind haters

 

[HugoBoss]

Seriously has nobody here been watching the streams!?

Lucina is faster in both movement and attack and she's lighter so her jump and up B are slightly higher and the majority of attacks auto cancel giving her a much better air game in contrast to Marth who has lag on a lot of moves and all streamers are pretty much in agreement that Lucina is the better character compared to Marth.

Doc. Is the most different of the three since he has his melee moveset compared to Mario who has his moveset from brawl so three of their moves different so.trying to say that he's a copy and paste is the same as saying that to Luigi and is just ridiculous.

Dark Pit while the most similar of the 3 has his playstyle closer to brawl Pit since Pit has had a lot of changes in this game.

So all of you saying these characters should have been alts are nothing but Blind haters

Still doesn't necessarily warrant the clones in my opinion. Perhaps I'm a "blind hater" because my opinion doesn't match towards yours?

 

[CrimsonYoshi]

I think people are just stupid and won't take anything from sakurai if only to complain about a little thing. If they get 40+ unique characters but 6 clones they whine. I'm younger than most of you but you're the ones acting like babies..

Honestly, I prefer Dr. Mario...