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Data Peach data and notes

Veril

Veril

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I'm not 100% positive as to how tumble affects your ability to do an aerial, but to really confirm I'll need to use frame advance. I'm putting off all my frame advance testing until I've got the non-frame advance stuff out of the way, and that might take a while.

@StandardToaster: You're a punk for getting me to start finding out the % chance on turnip pulls. Godd*** your shameless exploitation of my obsessiveness. You know how many turnips I've thrown to get sufficient data? 697! And its still not enough, because all the pulls are discrete random events.

Errrr... did you want the % for ALL turnips or is it ok if I bunch all normal turnips together and compare the chance of a normal turnip vs. "Wink"/"Dot"/"Stitch"/"Mr. Saturn"/"Beamsword"/Bobomb

Mr. Saturn seems to be more common than the other two items btw. The % for a Mr. Saturn pull so far is ~0.5%, whereas the beamsword and bobomb are so rare I can't even extrapolate a % with any degree of accuracy yet.

I'll call it quits once I've got a data set of 1500 turnip pulls.

Gotta remember to add things I find useful to the OP, like...

[COLLAPSE="Magus CG data"]
Magus420 said:
Made a text file with everything using AR awhile back along with some other stuff I do when CGing.


-----------------------
Falco (15%-108%)
-----------------------

***U-Throw D-Smash***
Away: 0%-31% (Must Walk)
Behind: 0%-10%


*** No DI ***
End: (Pivot=109%-111%), (Non-Pivot=108%)

*** Up-Towards DI ***
End: (JC Grab=117%-118%), (Dash Grab=109%-111%)

(U-Tilt, Turnaround U-Tilt [Up&Towards DI] Ends @ 95%), (U-Smash KOs @ 118%-150% on FD)

--------------------
Fox (21%-96%)
--------------------

***U-Throw D-Smash***
Away: 0%-26% (Must Walk)
Behind: 0%-12% (11-12 is Picky)


*** No DI ***
End: (Pivot=104%-106%), (Non-Pivot=96%)

*** Up-Towards DI ***
End: (JC Grab=108%-109%), (Dash Grab=102%)

(U-Tilt, Turnaround U-Tilt [Up&Towards DI] Ends @ 97%), (U-Smash KOs @ 112%-145% on FD)

-------------------------------
Captain Falcon (1%-77%)
-------------------------------
(Use Standing Turn-around grab for behind DI from 0%-9%)

***U-Throw D-Smash***
Away: N/A
Behind: 0%-7%


*** No DI ***
End: (Pivot=78%-79%), (Non-Pivot=69%, Turn Around Grab=77%)

*** Up-Towards DI ***
End: (JC Grab=83%-84%), (Dash Grab=78%-79%)
Click to expand...
[/COLLAPSE]
 
Magus420

Magus420

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1/128 - Odds of getting an Item
1/256 - Odds of getting a Mr Saturn (3/6)
1/384 - Odds of getting a Bob-omb (2/6)
1/768 - Odds of getting a Beam Sword (1/6)


Code: 
3A4C	3	??? (Read on Item Pull. Crashes if not 3?)
3A50	128	Odds of Getting an Item (Read on Down-B)
3A54	2	Odds of Bob-omb (Read on Item Pull)
3A58	6	Bob-omb ID (Read on Bob-omb Pull)
3A5C	3	Odds of Mr Saturn (Read on Item Pull)
3A60	7	Mr Saturn ID (Read on Mr Saturn Pull)
3A64	1	Odds of Beam Sword (Read on Item Pull)
3A68	12	Beam Sword ID (Read on Beam Sword Pull)
 
Veril

Veril

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Don't bother asking me to test anything for you again.

I'm not mad. Magus data is great. Plus I learned a lot about turnips by testing them that I didn't know before, like the damage permutations for different tosses and distances.
 
Magus420

Magus420

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Code: 
3A4C    00000003    Number of item data sets to load (starting @3A54)?
3A50    00000080    Odds for Getting an Item (1 out of this many)
3A54    00000002    Bob-omb Odds
3A58    00000006    Bob-omb ID
3A5C    00000003    Mr Saturn Odds
3A60    00000007    Mr Saturn ID
3A64    00000001    Beam Sword Odds
3A68    0000000C    Beam Sword ID

410C    00000008    Number of turnip data sets to load (starting @4110)?
4110    00000023    Smiley Odds
4114    00000002    Smiley Damage
4118    00000006    r.r Odds
411C    00000002    r.r Damage
4120    00000005    -.- Odds
4124    00000002    -.- Damage
4128    00000003    O_O Odds
412C    00000002    O_O Damage
4130    00000003    ^_^ Odds
4134    00000002    ^_^ Damage
4138    00000004    Winking Odds
413C    00000006    Winking Damage
4140    00000001    Dot Eye Odds
4144    0000000C    Dot Eye Damage
4148    00000001    Stitchface Odds
414C    0000001E    Stitchface Damage
 
Veril

Veril

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Thanks Magus, I'm making a table with turnip data in it (% chance and damage/kb permutations) so that info is really useful.

Do you by any chance know exactly how the range associated damage bonus for side-thrown turnips works? I know its not strictly distance based because the smash thrown turnips need to go farther to get the damage/kb bonus. So I was thinking it might be based on how many frames the turnip was travelling for (from the point it was thrown to the point it collides with an opponent). Is this true?
 
thesage

thesage

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I know that reverse smash thrown turnips travel farther. At least when you're standing on teh ground.
 
Veril

Veril

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Or is it just turnip velocity that determines damage (along with type)? That was the other possibility which made sense to me. Especially since turnips that are smash thrown need to travel farther to get the same bonus to damage when compared to dash or tilt/aerial thrown turnips.
 
Composeur

Composeur

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I don't know if it's reflected in turnip damage, but there is a phenomenon where if you back-throw a turnip RIGHT as you land from a jump it goes further than a regular ground or air backthrow.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

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Okay. Can someone explain to me the difference between "Odds Within Turnips/Items" and "Odds of Pull"? I'm probably just slow, but I don't understand the difference.
 
Strong Badam

Strong Badam

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first it randomly decides whether or not to get a turnip or an item.
127/128 to get a turnip
1/128 to get an item

then it decides what within that set it pulls
so for example, for a stitchface, it's a 127/128 chance to pull a turnip then a 1/58 chance to pull a stitchface after that. since it has to decide to both pull a turnip AND a stitchface, you multiply these chances.
127/128 * 1/58 = 127/7424 the chance of pulling a stitchface.
 
Composeur

Composeur

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Yeah, this data's really good to have. Thanks again, Veril and Magus. Based on some previous post that was obviously erroneous, I thought a stitch appeared an average of once every 300 pulls, but obviously it's much more frequent than that (every 58 pulls!). Although the message is still ultimately the same: use turnips wisely but frequently.
 
ShroudedOne

ShroudedOne

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I was going to ask him for frame data concerning the hitlag and shield stun each of Peach's moves deal. Then I realized that that information already exists in a different thread here. So I was going to, in essence, ask a stupid question. =P
 
Veril

Veril

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ShroudedOne said:
I was going to ask him for frame data concerning the hitlag and shield stun each of Peach's moves deal. Then I realized that that information already exists in a different thread here. So I was going to, in essence, ask a stupid question. =P
Click to expand...
Actually, that's not a stupid question at all. In fact, it's an excellent question, and one I had planned on addressing (once I managed to drag myself away from school-work). The data in the Peach hitbox animation thread isn't bad per se, but there are some issues. It doesn't list hitlag and shieldstun for a good portion of peach's moveset, it doesn't account for stale moves, it has no turnip advantage data, some terminology is unclear, etc. The hitbox images are sweet and delicious, like fresh strawberries, almond butter, and nutella. So delicious.

First problem is that the value for shieldstun combines the shieldhitlag with the shieldhitstun. That's misleading and annoying IMO, because the shield hitlag doesn't matter unless there's a hitlag differential (which afaik doesn't occur with any of her non-projectile moves, correct me if I'm wrong).

I'll update my table with the tumble values to include shieldstun and shieldhitlag as well.


VaNz said:
I have no idea what you are talking about.

GJ Veril. So glad to have you on the Peach boards.

:teemo:
Click to expand...
Thanks for the sticky. Now ****'s official!

I'm glad to be here as well. Peach is really incredible on paper imo but there is a tragic lack of Peach math. Especially with turnips! They've got that sweet projectile hitlag differential (since Peach doesn't experience the hitlag) which can give them retardedly good on hit advantage and INSANE on shield advantage. They don't stale, and they're got a whole range of values you can get because of the wide range in damage you've got with turnip pulls. Where are the silly theory shield combos with stitch face?!
 
Composeur

Composeur

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Oh, ****, that's exciting! Are you saying there are unexplored realistic possibilities with her turnips?
 
Veril

Veril

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Composeur said:
Oh, ****, that's exciting! Are you saying there are unexplored realistic possibilities with her turnips?
Click to expand...
Its hard to say anything is totally unexplored by as old a community as melee's. On the other hand the game has so much depth that imo there is a lot potential for new tactics to emerge with characters like Peach. Looking at her from a more mathematical angle, she's very much underdeveloped (aside from notable work by Magus, SDM, people I should be including but forget). Research may lead to some minor advances for experienced players but really they've played so much that a lot of this is old news for them. VaNz seems to have faith that I'll contribute to her metagame, or at least character knowledge, and I really don't want to let him down. Realistically, mid level players might be able to benefit more because it will clarify the options in a lot of situations (assuming they are good enough at math to interpret data).

tl;dr: Yes (mathematically), maybe (strategically).


Stitch face traps people in the shield for a long time: 31+ frames! That is regoddamndiculous. You're looking at most like 15 frames lost to lag from the turnip throw if it hits as soon as you throw it, which it doesn't necessarily have to. Regardless, the raw advantage from a stitch face on shield is 16-31+, and its only 16 if you're tossing backwards and it literally hits the frame it's released. So if you hit their shield from a sh-toss stitch and are within range to hit with fair, you can shield combo into fair. If you regrab the turnip within a few frames of the hit you can throw and hit the shield again!

The best thing really would be to throw the stitch into a shield at close range from SH toss, regrab the turnip, toss inside shield, profit. Totally a theory shield combo, but I think it'll work. Gotta try in AR! Gotta get my copy of melee out of that damn broken wii! :c
 
Composeur

Composeur

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Break that damn wii open! :D

I think pretty much everyone is interested to see what kind of findings you make. <3
 
ShroudedOne

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I know I am. The possibilities of stitchface shield pressure are endless.
 
Mike G

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Veril said:
Stitch face traps people in the shield for a long time: 31+ frames! That is regoddamndiculous. You're looking at most like 15 frames lost to lag from the turnip throw if it hits as soon as you throw it, which it doesn't necessarily have to. Regardless, the raw advantage from a stitch face on shield is 16-31+, and its only 16 if you're tossing backwards and it literally hits the frame it's released. So if you hit their shield from a sh-toss stitch and are within range to hit with fair, you can shield combo into fair. If you regrab the turnip within a few frames of the hit you can throw and hit the shield again!

The best thing really would be to throw the stitch into a shield at close range from SH toss, regrab the turnip, toss inside shield, profit. Totally a theory shield combo, but I think it'll work. Gotta try in AR! Gotta get my copy of melee out of that damn broken wii! :c
Click to expand...

I think I've done this a few times before and there's a vid me doing it at the fc3 crew vid.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=NnzTazBeL0Q#t=321s

Either I did it too slow or there is actual time for hugs to escape. *shrug*
 
chenjesu

chenjesu

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what is the magic weave???? why is it called a weave?

EDIT I rescind my questions about the weave.
 
knightpraetor

knightpraetor

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how does nair pressure work? does it even work? i heard from kadano that float nair comes out frame 7. doesn't nair have 3 frames of hit stun followed and four frames of landing lag for peach? what would put peach at -1 on hit, meaning that float nair wouldn't beat other character's grabs. But I don't think that is the case, so I'm probably misunderstanding something
 
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