Patch 1.1.5

[MOI-ARI]

I have found an odd Samus change regarding Missiles.

Both come out of the arm cannon a few frames sooner, but the endlag is exactly the same... anyone else care to help me confirm this?

Super Missle seems the same?
Homing missles are coming out on frame 17-18 for me. Perhaps 18. Thats two frames sooner than before according to kurogane site's 1.4 frame data

 

[Bowserboy3]

Super Missle seems the same?
Homing missles are coming out on frame 17-18 for me. Perhaps 18. Thats two frames sooner than before according to kurogane site's 1.4 frame data

It's been confirmed now that both Homing and Super Missiles come out 2 frames sooner.

Both missiles still have the same endlag however. Very minor buff, but still, a buff is a buff.

 

[Xygonn]

I have to wait for my buddies Gamepad to update my WiiU....ill have to practice with my brother on the 3ds when i visit tonight. Happy isnt even the way to describe my feelings rigth now.

You can update with just wiimote. just click the bottom right hand corner to swap screens to bring up the gamepad menu on the tv.

 

[Teshie U]

It's been confirmed now that both Homing and Super Missiles come out 2 frames sooner.

Both missiles still have the same endlag however. Very minor buff, but still, a buff is a buff.

Am I the only one that would consider that a nerf? Missiles reaching their target means less time for you to act while they are out. I'd rather have missiles come out frame 70 and act on frame 71 than have them out frame 21 while I have to sit and watch it get shielded.

 

[JAZZ_]

It's all good in my opinion

 

[White_Pointer]

(nair is my new favorite finisher, it's just such a solid move now).

Nair was already a pretty good finisher near the edge or off stage, now it can actually be used as a finisher on stage which is pretty good. But I personally would have preferred a frame data buff on it so we could actually use it as a combo breaker rather than the damage and kb buff it got, but I'll take what I can get.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Am I the only one that would consider that a nerf? Missiles reaching their target means less time for you to act while they are out. I'd rather have missiles come out frame 70 and act on frame 71 than have them out frame 21 while I have to sit and watch it get shielded.

They come out 2 frames quicker, essentially meaning the hitbox is out infront of Samus 2 frames earlier. That's technically a buff. Even though they come out 2 frames quicker, they don't fizzle two frames quicker like you'd expect either. It's plain and simple, the hitbox comes out 2 frames earlier.

 

[Drig786]

Good to see Samus getting the buffs she needed

 

[FlAlex]

Woo! This is great news guys! Buffs, yeah! WOO!
Woo!
woo! .....

Iswear,Ineverleft.IwasalwayswithSamus.AlwaysknewSakuraiwouldbuffus.Pleaseacceptmeback.

 

[Hark17ball]

You can update with just wiimote. just click the bottom right hand corner to swap screens to bring up the gamepad menu on the tv.

Son of a gun...thank you!

 

[White_Pointer]

Have the various changes to Samus' aerial mobility actually been 100% confirmed?

EDIT: Also, I'm seeing that fair might actually link properly now, similar to how upsmash and up b seem to link properly, so opponent's can't fall out of it anymore. Can anyone confirm?

 

[Vyrnx]

Air speed was definitely increased significantly

What is Samus lacking at this point? like, what is still holding her back?
She has amazing midrange and zoning, potent close range (especially with the new dash attack), very strong forward and backwards facing aerials that are pretty fast, combos, edge guarding, oos options, and charge shot. To a lesser extent, good recovery, combo escaping, shield pressure/safe shield options, ledge getup options, ledge coverage options, weight, and a nice level of mobility...

Landing woes can't be enough to keep this character in low tier, especially when going to the ledge and abusing ledge options is a thing (that I used in tourney to avoid landing and it worked fine). Meta Knight, our worst matchup, was nerfed, Sheik and ZSS were nerfed, the only really bad matchup that I can think of left for Samus is Pikachu. I could see Mewtwo being a bad matchup as well.

Of course Samus still loses to some of the top tiers. But I don't think any of her matchups are hopeless, some like Pika are disadvantaged, many are even or close to even, many are advantaged. And I'm sure many more will be even/advantaged/less disadvantaged after this patch. Can't see this character in low tier anymore (and imo it was fairly questionable prepatch as well). Her grabs and landing issues don't seem to be enough when all of her strengths are considered.

 

[Mighty_ChaotiX]

Guys, is it just me or the normal missile seek better?

 

[White_Pointer]

What is Samus lacking at this point? like, what is still holding her back?

- No kill throw, or no kill confirm off a throw
- Jabs still don't link properly (except for a small % range)
- No aerials are fast enough to be combo breakers
- No real disjoints (seriously why does Mario's dair beat our Up B?)
- Still not great frame data all around
- Missiles still suck
- Zair still gets janked by platforms

I'm not saying she's bad by any means, the changes she's got in 1.1.5 are great, but that's the stuff that's going to keep her in mid tier and not push higher.

Meta Knight, our worst matchup, was nerfed, Sheik and ZSS were nerfed, the only really bad matchup that I can think of left for Samus is Pikachu. I could see Mewtwo being a bad matchup as well.

Villager still exists. I believe Villager is our worst MU by about a billion years. I actually believe a good Villager played properly is practically unwinnable for Samus, like 80:20 or maybe even 90:10 levels of bad. None of the buffs we've got would really help against him either. Even before the patch there wasn't many characters that forced me off Samus (not even Sheik) but Villager was one of them. That MU is just horse****.

 

[KayJay]

Sheik's F-air now gets outranged by Samus's Jab1.

 

[Ampheras]

I'm pretty sure we couldn't do it before, could we?

And do you guys know for sure the jab change is placebo? I feel that now is really harder to pull a jab to Fsmash combo.

 

[Vyrnx]

- No kill throw, or no kill confirm off a throw
- Jabs still don't link properly (except for a small % range)
- No aerials are fast enough to be combo breakers
- No real disjoints (seriously why does Mario's dair beat our Up B?)
- Still not great frame data all around
- Missiles still suck
- Zair still gets janked by platforms

I agree she is mid tier and not high. But I don't see how she is not competitively viable at least to a degree.

also I am not just going through and refuting everything in a list, I just wanted some way to organize my ramblings of what I think are issues and what aren't really

-Our jab is good. The most unfortunate thing about it is how it whiffs on Pikachu and some characters that go into a low profile crouch thing during landings/moves/etc, which is one of the biggest contributing factors to our bad Pika MU. The second most unfortunate thing is its lack of safety at low percents. I feel like Samus' other fast moves, damage racking abilities at low percents, and gameplay that revolves around midrange means that Samus is rarely in a situation where she relies on jab 1 when her opponent is at a low percent because her opponent doesn't stay at low percents for long and may not have broken through midrange neutral yet. I feel like Samus' other defensive options can be utilized to avoid the issues with jab at low percents. And obv jab is good at mid+ percents (except on Pika).

-But we don't get combod hard if you di out and jump. It's a bigger deal for a character like Falcon to not have a combo breaker. But Samus isn't a fast faller. I think people get a little stuck on the lack of combo breaker thing and try to act like Samus has a combo breaker instead of taking 12% and jumping out. The amount of damage Samus takes from combos is minimal and is better than resisting with frame 8 nair and taking three times as much damage. For what it's worth, uair does function as a combo breaker against many combos but not a combo "punisher" like Yoshi's nair.

-Dtilt and zair are massively disjointed and useful in the neutral. Also jab, dair, usmash, fair, (projectiles, I guess), are disjointed. But I think Samus' general lack of disjoints is an issue.

-Samus' frame data isn't even bad. We can't expect to have Luigi's frame data when we have a highly utilizable midrange game. This is the argument Link mains in particular make, that their long range game can mitigate the issues with their frame data. I would say the same with Samus and her midrange game, except out frame data is significantly better than Link's and probably in the top half of the cast. Dtilt is hugely disjointed and does 12 damage, yet comes out frame 6. Uair is frame 5 and has 12 frames landing lag, nair is a frame 8 kill move, we have one of the fastest oos in up b at f5, zair has 8 frames landing lag, and jab is frame 3 with tied second lowest FAF of a frame 3 jab with Falcon's jab 1, only beaten by Kirby's, which has awful range compared to Falcon's, which has awful range compared to Samus'. Fsmash is frame 10, fair f6. The only issues with frame data are on less utilized moves like dair (other than the good AC), dsmash, and grabs (which is the most unfortunate). And various endlags, landing lags on moves not AC'd properly, etc. But we also have to factor in the range of our moves, and the rest of the game as a whole, not just frame data.

-Missiles aren't great, but opponents can't really stay at long range because of how powerful Samus' projectiles are. They're good on some characters, pressure shields, do 10 damage, they aren't great but they have uses. Mostly that characters can't just stay at long range without a reflector, they have to approach (and when they do they will probably punish the bad end lag on our missiles). Also, Sheik's side b is bad. Our side b being bad doesn't mean anything. This is just in general, a bad move doesn't mean that the character is bad, that is silly. There are many good characters with bad moves.

-This isn't holding back Samus

Also Villager is not 20:80 or 10:90

 

[Ometeotl]

- No real disjoints (seriously why does Mario's dair beat our Up B?)


Villager still exists. I believe Villager is our worst MU by about a billion years. I actually believe a good Villager played properly is practically unwinnable for Samus, like 80:20 or maybe even 90:10 levels of bad. None of the buffs we've got would really help against him either. Even before the patch there wasn't many characters that forced me off Samus (not even Sheik) but Villager was one of them. That MU is just horse****.

Honestly, I've beaten Mario's dair a lot more times than he has beaten me, maybe to the point that his dair has never beaten me. Now, Bayo's nair? that's a whole different monster.

And Villager? This is just my experience, but I've never faced an unbeatable Villager, ever. Mainly because I disturb him with my zair and I get to win the space war with it. Also, the zair getting trapped on the platforms is not a real complain because the spot is really small, just time it right and you will never get it caught in them.

 

[Afro Smash]

Fox/Cloud/Pika are still bad match ups. Gren/T Link/Mario/Olimar are still p bad too, tho obviously we got a little better in all of them.

Loving the F Tilt change so far

 

[DungeonMaster]

These were all major buffs, and I see no downsides. No seriously guys, this is THE patch that changes everything.

The grab buffs are huge, missiles while not competitive vs. other spam characters it's totally fine since we're not a spam character - we're a combo character with the longest reaching combo starters in the game.
I do miss my "THWACK" sound from Dash 10%. If you're listening nintendo, give me back the THWACK.

I think Up-titl acquired a HUGE disjoint. Can someone verify? My entire shin can go clear through a bumper.
I'm all but positive that wasn't the case before. Could be placebo, but really?

 

[White_Pointer]

O Ometeotl I've replied to you in the matchup discussion thread to keep this thread on topic: http://smashboards.com/threads/samus-match-up-discussion-thread-2-0.399987/page-14

 

[-Fe-]

Am I the only one that would consider that a nerf? Missiles reaching their target means less time for you to act while they are out. I'd rather have missiles come out frame 70 and act on frame 71 than have them out frame 21 while I have to sit and watch it get shielded.

The endlag didn't change...so you'll be able act out of it the same you would before the patch...so it's a buff.

 

[Doeboy]

Honestly this patch definitely helped but I'm still not sure she's improved very much tier-wise. I don't think she is sufficiently rewarded against a skilled player without the use of decent, probably hard-to-pull-off setup.

 

[MOI-ARI]

These were all major buffs, and I see no downsides. No seriously guys, this is THE patch that changes everything.

The grab buffs are huge, missiles while not competitive vs. other spam characters it's totally fine since we're not a spam character - we're a combo character with the longest reaching combo starters in the game.
I do miss my "THWACK" sound from Dash 10%. If you're listening nintendo, give me back the THWACK.

I think Up-titl acquired a HUGE disjoint. Can someone verify? My entire shin can go clear through a bumper.
I'm all but positive that wasn't the case before. Could be placebo, but really?

*BONK.

In 1.1.4 here^, thats what I got. Gets bumped even though its just her foot.

--Lol not sure where that duplicate pic came from XD

 

[Teshie U]

The endlag didn't change...so you'll be able act out of it the same you would before the patch...so it's a buff.

They can potentially hit earlier now, leaving you with a larger gap between the missile and your FAF.

High startup, low lag (like gyroid) gives you more setups and mixup potential than quick startup with alot of lag. Thats all I'm saying. This isn't a hard nerf, but the change makes missiles further from ideal. Being able to pressure your opponent while the missile is active is what made them good in Melee, Brawl and the custom relentless missile.

 

[Afro Smash]

Main thread says our CS start up got reduced by 2 frames, if true might be able to combo more with it

 

[Jandlebars]

Guys, is it just me or the normal missile seek better?

Since they come out 2 frames earlier, it could just be that they have slightly more time to track the opponent.

Keep in mind that 'improved missile tracking' has been a placebo buff in the past, so we would definitely need video evidence to support this.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Main thread says our CS start up got reduced by 2 frames, if true might be able to combo more with it

YEP!
It's the initial hitbox, the very first one, that shows up frame 14. I JUST checked, we have recovered our Up-Tilt -> FJ/SH -> CS true combo and and D-air -> FJ/SH -> CS. The Up-tilt needs to land with the foot (like in the combo video) and you need to jump forwards into the target, the D-air needs to land with very strict timing (like in the video again, say FJ AD), very deep, but it's 100% unavoidable now. SH variant does not work very well out of Up-tilt, FJ much better.
It also means aerial D-air -> J -> CS is back.

I'm happy as a clam.

KayJay or anyone else with a rapid-fire controller could you please cross check? I only tested 10 times and head into work now...

View attachment 100419
In 1.1.4 here^, thats what I got. Gets bumped even though its just her foot.
--Lol not sure where that duplicate pic came from XD

Thanks MOI-ARI, I think its the descending arc (hip level) that may have had a hurtbox adjusted. It could be placebo, of course.

They can potentially hit earlier now, leaving you with a larger gap between the missile and your FAF.
High startup, low lag (like gyroid) gives you more setups and mixup potential than quick startup with alot of lag. Thats all I'm saying. This isn't a hard nerf, but the change makes missiles further from ideal. Being able to pressure your opponent while the missile is active is what made them good in Melee, Brawl and the custom relentless missile.

What you say is completely true in general, lower FAF is preferable - this specific change is to greatly reduce the chance of a 7% DA follow up, it's tuned so that you only get the 10% (or 6% late).
For some reason they want to force SM and Z-air towards the 10% hit.
Earlier startup does mean it will hit very particular moves better - very notably Quick Attack. It's not a counter to QA, not by a long shot, but it helps.

 

[KayJay]

The new early hitbox from Dash Attack can be an opener for Jablocks:

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

The nerf on Cloud was insane, and now there's absolutely no reason to use finishing touch. Rest in Piece.
Meta Knight is dead too.
And Bayo, Rosa and Diddy are the new top tiers.

Back to 0 Nintendo (jk)

wait what, i'm on the wrong board sorry LOL

Finishing Touch is still usable.

Meta Knight can still combo you from hell and back and is still a good character.

Cloud is still very good.

Sheik is still very good.

ZSS is still very good.

People are overeacting to these nerfs lmao.

Very happy for the Samus players though. Long overdue.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Is there anything left to confirm for Samus in this patch?

 

[Hapajin]

In the main thread, they mention a new hitbox for F-air? Does this help us? What changes exactly? I haven't had much time to experiment with Samus yet.

 

[Xygonn]

In the main thread, they mention a new hitbox for F-air? Does this help us? What changes exactly? I haven't had much time to experiment with Samus yet.

It just autolinks better.

 

[Shuckle_SSB]

Also, Sheik's side b is bad.

Wat

 

[haxfactory]

Sheik's side b is the grenade and it actually is terrible and it sends you into special fall. Accidentally using it causes SDs surprisingly often.

Didn't pay attention to the context here, just jumped to the bottom of the thread to look for new info, but that guy isn't wrong, that side b is garbage.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

I think my favorite thing out of this whole patch is that it makes hip-checking a viable option for Samus again. The old hitbox left us to vulnerable on shield and even if we hit it was to weak for any set ups anyway (also being punishable on hit half the time regardless didn't help). Now we can set up for tech chases again while crossing up shields. I'm stoked.

 

[White_Pointer]

Is there anything left to confirm for Samus in this patch?

Yes, adom4 claimed that the following changes to her aerial mobility were made:

Air speed 0.95 -> 1.03
Gravity 0.75 -> 0.77
Fall speed 1.25 -> 1.3
Fastfall 2 -> 2.08

However, I have not seen this actually officially confirmed anywhere.

 

[adom4]

Yes, adom4 claimed that the following changes to her aerial mobility were made:



However, I have not seen this actually officially confirmed anywhere.

Check the patch notes thread, it's confirmed there in multiple posts.

 

[Hark17ball]

You can deff feel it too.

 

[WispBae]

Sorry if this has been asked already, but how much do the buffs to Samus help her? Is it immense or just a nice buff? I love watching Samus players.