On the topic of Fox/Falco hate

[ELI-mination]

Wtf how would it be useless

 

[Oro?!]

No 0-death autocombos anymore.

Kappa

 

[JOE!]

No 0-death autocombos anymore.

Kappa

Therefor useless, as Falco would now have to use other moves

 

[Rat]

There's a window where you can't Meteor cancel. I think it's 15 frames for Up + B and 30 frames for the jump button.

Might be enough that they can't Meteor out of a Falco DAir combo.

 

[Arcalyth]

I think it makes more sense for the beginning to spike and the latter half to meteor, or at least for it not to be a 2 second wall of **** YOU.

 

[Spiffykins]

Wtf how would it be useless

Wolf's dair is not only a "useless" meteor, it's also slower and doesn't last as long. Not saying Falco should have a meteor dair or Wolf should have a spike, but yeah calling it useless is an exaggeration. Something like PAL Falco's dair would be a reasonable nerf anyway. Maybe make the angle gradually steeper as it lingers until it becomes a meteor at some point in the move.

I think it makes more sense for the beginning to spike and the latter half to meteor, or at least for it not to be a 2 second wall of **** YOU.

Ninja'd.

 

[Wizzrobe]

I still think Spacies are top tier but they are no longer the only ones in that tier or that high up on the list. I think a couple other characters are pretty equal with them.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I can't think of any character that comes reasonably close to Fox or Falco barring maybe Sheik?

 

[ELI-mination]

Someone should attempt naming one though so I can laugh at them

 

[Wizzrobe]

Someone should attempt naming one though so I can laugh at them

Bowser, Wario, Sonic.

 

[ELI-mination]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

[Nausicaa]

Metaknight... duh
The guy is GodtierIvanOozebanworthy.
Just wait until he's in Project M and we'll have a new flood of hate?

 

[CyberZixx]

Bowser, Wario, Sonic.

I'd love to hear your reasoning for that. I bet it is vast. I seen you playing as Sonic vs M2K. He was mad upset over how good sonic was.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Metaknight... duh
The guy is GodtierIvanOozebanworthy.
Just wait until he's in Project M and we'll have a new flood of hate?

Except the game isn't based around a system that automatically makes him the best character and the PMBR will most likely actively prevent him from being at the same level as Fox/Falco like they did with Lucario/Ike (Who were so stupid they needed to be toned down.)
I doubt that Metaknight will even come close to being as strong as Fox or Falco since the game isn't inherently flawed enough to give him all the same power he had over Brawl.

I think the big difference here, is that people hate on Fox/Falco who get no change except to be more like their Melee selves, where people hated on Lucario/Ike and they did get changed, so did Sonic, either for style choices or because they were so polarizing and strong that it challenged the big two (Maybe a little of both). The PMBR intends for Fox/Falco to be exactly as good as they were in Melee. We have no idea of knowing what they'll intend to give Metaknight, he could be completely different from his Brawl self like Lucario and Sonic are.

 

[SunJester]

I think the PMBR is stuck between a rock and a hard place regarding the balancing of the space animals. Look at the massive amount of johns they got for nerfing Lucario and Ike. Could you imagine what people would say if they nerfed Melee's treasured characters?

That being said I think in the long run they do need to get nerfed. Fox kills way, way to early with U-air and Up Smash, and god forbid Falco might have to time his d-air's. We know the PAL versions of the characters are still completely competitive, and work perfectly fine, and anyone who thinks Fox and Falco still wouldn't be S-tier if they became their PAL versions are kidding themselves.

But maybe they should wait a bit until P:M has a larger user base for characters that aren't Melee top-tiers. Right now it seems like a lot of people are just picking up the game because their skills transfer over to P:M very easily. Once they have them roped into possibly playing other characters, then that's the time to take a look at the space animals and see how they stack up against the rest of the cast.

 

[Spiffykins]

If they intend to nerf the spacies some day, waiting is probably exactly what they'll do and I don't blame them for it. Either way, they didn't design Fox/Falco, and they proved pretty well with Wolf that they were capable of taking the essence of a spacie and making a character that's a lot more reasonable. I just hope if/when it happens, they do it a lot more incrementally than they have with their own redesigned characters. I hope they do it more incrementally with other characters from now too, for that matter.

 

[V-K]

Wtf how would it be useless

Not useless but close. Why does no PAL Marth use the dair? Because it has so much after lag that not only can you use it only at the edge (or you suicide) but some chars can meteor cancel and return faster to the stage than you.
Falco's dair has big after-lag as well.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Falco also falls at the speed of light while Marth's fast fall only clocks in around 11th fastest, meaning he can return downward much more quickly than Marth.

Not that I'm in favor of a meteoring Falco.

 

[Jolteon]

V-K, PAL Marth's dair is really good. The angle makes it perfect for platform tech chasing and character specific edgeguards, so it actually has a lot of applications that his NTSC dair does not.

A meteor may not be good for edgeguarding, but it will always have the useful trait of forcing knockdown on stage.

 

[Deleted member]

my top tier is fox falco sheik mario peach and sonic in no order. mario peach and sonic are really damn good in this game and you'd be nuts to overlook them as proper top tiers.

edit: i also think that peach straight up beats both fox and falco in this game. solid winning MUs.

 

[GaretHax]

my top tier is fox falco sheik mario peach and sonic in no order. mario peach and sonic are really damn good in this game and you'd be nuts to overlook them as proper top tiers.

edit: i also think that peach straight up beats both fox and falco in this game. solid winning MUs.

Umbreon I love the quote under your user name so much <333 Also I'm on the fence about sonic being top tier and Peach is nasty.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Oh yeah, forgot about Peach. Without her 2.1 tricksies she seems to be back to boring Melee status which is still super silly good.

 

[JOE!]

unrelated: but why does she have a dsmash that does 238794862384796238946 damage? I know it's only if you try to CC it or such, but still...

Anywho, back on topic:

I have always found it weird that the spacies are to be left untouched and instead balance the cast around having "anti spacy technology". It's like dealing with a fire by patching your house up with flame retardant materials... while the fire is still burning.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Because in all likelihood it was meant to eat shields and still have a hit left to toss the opponent away in the opposite direction.

 

[The_NZA]

I don't think melee pros would whine too mu--
okay correction. I think it'll be easy to ignore their wines if only the most abusive aspects of fox and falco were nerfed (fox's unreasonable usmash and maybe uair, falco's dair being sloppy destruction always). The other option is nerf falco's SHL instead of his spike....seeing as his spike makes for dynamic gameplay while SHL seems to make certain stages unplayable for many characters (SSE Jungle)

 

[Kink-Link5]

Shine is like 20x more abusive than any other aspect of any character including Fox and Falco.

 

[SpiderMad]

You ain't gonna make a meteor outa me http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqS1HCer1hE

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Bowser, Wario, Sonic.

....uhhh are you joking about wario, lol I hope you are.

 

[traffic.]

I have always found it weird that the spacies are to be left untouched and instead balance the cast around having "anti spacy technology". It's like dealing with a fire by patching your house up with flame retardant materials... while the fire is still burning.

Now, i love analogies probably more than the next guy, but how do you propose to nerf fire :v

 

[Kink-Link5]

Fire:Baking Soda is like a 10:90 matchup

 

[SpiderMad]

And then Ike would walk outside and smash the fire to pieces with his Broccoli sword, but the villagers turned against him and now all his limbs are torn off and his Broccoli sword was replaced with Salami stick. Meanwhile, some guys just running around in circles and saying arrogant things but nobody wants to damage his legs.

 

[The_NZA]

Shine might be abusive but its integral to fox/falco's game and makes them interesting. They have some things working against them...the comboability against them. It just seems like both kill WAY too early.I'm partial against fox becasue i feel that usmash defies this games logic, while falco's dair is insanely good...but really its the other stuff in falco's game like his interrupt game with his laser that makes him a true pain.

 

[Juushichi]

I dunno man, Wario is pretty obnoxious.

He may not be top, but he feels pretty damn close to high.

 

[JOE!]

Could you imagine what they'd be like if Shine were like Ness' old PK magnet: no hitbox?

 

[The_NZA]

I think it would make those characters a lot less interesting. I think the ever present danger of the shine is quite cool. I think both falco and fox would probably be low tier without them, because they would be so goddamn unsafe and one uthrow would lead to a quick 60% by most of the cast.

 

[JOE!]

Fox I think would actually still be damn good, falco on the other hand would lose one of the 4 moves in his set: Dair, Fsmash, B, Down B.

 

[leelue]

I respect the fact that this thread hasn't been locked

 

[Shadic]

At one point it was about to deserve it, but as long as it stays civil, and reasonably mature it can stay open.

 

[foshio]

I could see nerfing fox's kill moves (making them weaker not slower). It wouldn't really make a difference to his feel, he would still have reliable kills that worked like before just later, it would make him sorta worse maybe...

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I could see nerfing fox's kill moves (making them weaker not slower). It wouldn't really make a difference to his feel, he would still have reliable kills that worked like before just later, it would make him sorta worse maybe...

Weaker in knock back or in damage dealt?