On Custom Moves and their Future

[LancerStaff]

EVO's results today would notably imply that you are not at a disadvantage if you don't use customs.

Instead you're at a disadvantage if you don't use Sheik or Diddy.

The upper end of the event had very few customs-users. Abadango didn't use any customs on Pac-Man, and only one on Wario (Speeding Bike). I know he used Shooting Star Bit, but I can't recall whether or not he used Luma Warp.
ESAM used Thunderwave HSB frequently, but there were several cases in which he opted for default Thundershock (HSB is another of those near-pure upgrades though). However, he didn't win, or even come top-4.

Nairo utilized an alternate blaster for Zamus for extra range against Sheik. Lost the matchup anyway, came in 3rd.

I didn't follow Mr R through the tournament, but I believe he was running default Sheik all the way through. He came in 2nd.

The event was won by a default "double-nerfed" Diddy Kong.

Whether for an attempt to sound neutral (despite the obvious ignorance and dislike of customs from several casters, including D1) or whatever else, the commentators seemed convinced that customs did not, in any identifiable way, cause any sort of upset resulting in an undeserved win by a lesser player. So in essence, you actually don't need to use customs, just like you don't need to use Sheik. But failure to prepare when the ruleset, terms, and sets have been known for months is literally nothing but willful ignorance with a convenient scapegoat.

Two or three characters who don't gain anything off of customs are the exception, not the norm. They just so happen to be top tier. For just about every other character in the game, you're gimping yourself for not using them. What about when the top tiers get nerfed? And who's to say all of the top players today fully understood their character's customs? I find it likely that they stuck with defaults because they're just more familiar with them.

There's also the problem of the politics of custom sets... They had to be determined long before we fully understood the moves, and we're limited to just ten sets. Kirby I hear has tons of viable sets depending on the matchup... But then his performance is inconsistent because X tournament doesn't let you import sets, but Y does. Stuff like that is all over the place.

And what if defaults becomes more balanced overall then customs? What if it actually is already because low tiers with terrible customs exist?

 

[Doval]

And what if defaults becomes more balanced overall then customs?

What if the game is more balanced if we ban Sheik? What if the game is more balanced if we ban everyone but 1 character?

Banning isn't something you do on a whim in the hopes of improving balance (which isn't something you can measure, anyways). Banning is an extreme measure to remove a game element so incredibly powerful it plainly trivializes every other strategy. Double Team in Pokemon comes to mind. The game is what it is, for better or worse, regardless of how custom moves shake up the tier list. If it turns out one particular custom move is so good it makes no sense to use any other character, we can just ban that one move.

 

[Raijinken]

Two or three characters who don't gain anything off of customs are the exception, not the norm. They just so happen to be top tier. For just about every other character in the game, you're gimping yourself for not using them. What about when the top tiers get nerfed? And who's to say all of the top players today fully understood their character's customs? I find it likely that they stuck with defaults because they're just more familiar with them.

There's also the problem of the politics of custom sets... They had to be determined long before we fully understood the moves, and we're limited to just ten sets. Kirby I hear has tons of viable sets depending on the matchup... But then his performance is inconsistent because X tournament doesn't let you import sets, but Y does. Stuff like that is all over the place.

And what if defaults becomes more balanced overall then customs? What if it actually is already because low tiers with terrible customs exist?

Nothing says the top players fully understood their customs. But that's irrelevant, because they won without (or some with), and thus, as the point was, customs aren't needed with sufficient skill. I do recall a commentator mentioning that a Sheik (maybe False, maybe Mr R, can't remember) stated he didn't play customs because he wasn't confident they'd be around forever.

Customs cannot be blamed for EVO's ruleset timeline restrictions. And quite honestly, if we can say any given character or move is understood, then if any given custom or Mii is not, it's strictly the fault of the playerbase for being willfully ignorant (DLC characters aside, and they have no customs, customs have been around in their full and unaltered (bar patches) form since 3DS launch). The limit on sets is something that can't be avoided, just like the limit on "competitive stages." We make do with what we have to resolve the logistical conundrum presented by Sakurai's implementation of the system. The best way to run customs is to allow any player to pick their preferred set. But when the vocal majority refuse to even unlock customs for their own character, many current players don't own the 3DS version, and tournaments don't have enough time to allow everyone to pick their set (or do so in advance), then Ampharos and friends have done the best we can by prompting discussion and analysis in the time available. And, of course, there will be revisions to the sets now that EVO is over.

Really, though, if we want consistent results, a unified ruleset is required. But if some small-town (or big-town, even) TO doesn't like customs and doesn't have a 3DS or didn't want to find a single person who had ground them out, then it's his (and his attendees') problem if they choose to run a ruleset inconsistent with the biggest Smash tournament's ruleset in any way. Even if they started just casually working on unlocking customs back in March when the rulesets were confirmed, they'd have gotten all the relevant sets for the majority of the cast by April easily.

Until it is proven (or heck, I'd accept a widespread general consensus of players with experience across the moveset board) that the default loadout is always better, I'll think it's always better to allow customs. In the long run, frankly I'm not opposed to manual balance through forced loadout (Sheik's Paralyzing Needle, for instance). But in the short run, banning customs for unfair matchup skew is logically equivalent to banning stages for unfair matchup skew. Which, as I observe, doesn't happen, seeing as the generally-best character is also considered generally-best on the generally-most-liked stage.

 

[moofpi]

There's also the problem of the politics of custom sets... They had to be determined long before we fully understood the moves, and we're limited to just ten sets. Kirby I hear has tons of viable sets depending on the matchup... But then his performance is inconsistent because X tournament doesn't let you import sets, but Y does. Stuff like that is all over the place.

Yeah but our current Custom Moveset is the Summer 2015 Edition. I assume now the boards will continue discussion after having months of seeing them used and seeing them on the world stage and we will have an adjusted list for the Fall or Winter Edition. I like that we update it with further information.

-Snip-

That was a very well thought out and thorough post. Also, I love your sig.

 

[neohopeSTF]

I feel with customs is that you ban all of them or you ban none of them. There isn't a objective way to say what customs are overpowered and it would just lead to a slippery slope of customs being banned if you start banning some and not banning others.

 

[DaRkJaWs]

Ok, I'm back...ok here's the deal for all TO's: host one customs tourney for every 1 or 2 non customs tourney. However, just like the fact that non legal stages can be picked if both parties consent, both parties should also be able to consent to using customs in a non customs tournament. That is potentially another solution.

 

[LancerStaff]

What if the game is more balanced if we ban Sheik? What if the game is more balanced if we ban everyone but 1 character?

Banning isn't something you do on a whim in the hopes of improving balance (which isn't something you can measure, anyways). Banning is an extreme measure to remove a game element so incredibly powerful it plainly trivializes every other strategy. Double Team in Pokemon comes to mind. The game is what it is, for better or worse, regardless of how custom moves shake up the tier list. If it turns out one particular custom move is so good it makes no sense to use any other character, we can just ban that one move.

Where's the button to ban Shiek? Where's the button to remove everybody but Mario? Those aren't in-game options. Customs off is. Why can't I choose it?

Double Team isn't even banned in the format that GF balances for, I don't think...

Nothing says the top players fully understood their customs. But that's irrelevant, because they won without (or some with), and thus, as the point was, customs aren't needed with sufficient skill. I do recall a commentator mentioning that a Sheik (maybe False, maybe Mr R, can't remember) stated he didn't play customs because he wasn't confident they'd be around forever.

Customs cannot be blamed for EVO's ruleset timeline restrictions. And quite honestly, if we can say any given character or move is understood, then if any given custom or Mii is not, it's strictly the fault of the playerbase for being willfully ignorant (DLC characters aside, and they have no customs, customs have been around in their full and unaltered (bar patches) form since 3DS launch). The limit on sets is something that can't be avoided, just like the limit on "competitive stages." We make do with what we have to resolve the logistical conundrum presented by Sakurai's implementation of the system. The best way to run customs is to allow any player to pick their preferred set. But when the vocal majority refuse to even unlock customs for their own character, many current players don't own the 3DS version, and tournaments don't have enough time to allow everyone to pick their set (or do so in advance), then Ampharos and friends have done the best we can by prompting discussion and analysis in the time available. And, of course, there will be revisions to the sets now that EVO is over.

Really, though, if we want consistent results, a unified ruleset is required. But if some small-town (or big-town, even) TO doesn't like customs and doesn't have a 3DS or didn't want to find a single person who had ground them out, then it's his (and his attendees') problem if they choose to run a ruleset inconsistent with the biggest Smash tournament's ruleset in any way. Even if they started just casually working on unlocking customs back in March when the rulesets were confirmed, they'd have gotten all the relevant sets for the majority of the cast by April easily.

Until it is proven (or heck, I'd accept a widespread general consensus of players with experience across the moveset board) that the default loadout is always better, I'll think it's always better to allow customs. In the long run, frankly I'm not opposed to manual balance through forced loadout (Sheik's Paralyzing Needle, for instance). But in the short run, banning customs for unfair matchup skew is logically equivalent to banning stages for unfair matchup skew. Which, as I observe, doesn't happen, seeing as the generally-best character is also considered generally-best on the generally-most-liked stage.

Saying that just because they weren't used means they're weak is ignorant. There's many reasons as to why they may of not been used, and like you've said, a few of them are true.

With patches being a regular thing, yes, it is. Sets are frequently outdated because of patches and many moves suffering from Brawl Olimar syndrome. Implementing a new technique in a static set is one thing, but how can you use the technique if you can't even use the move? Giant tournaments like EVO have perfectly sound reasons to not allow importing, which leads to it's own problems.

A unified ruleset with customs is basically impossible because everybody who wants customs on want completely different things. It's not on Vs. off, it's ten sets Vs. imports Vs. one set no default Vs. bans Vs. no bans. Vs. off. You have one widely supported option against tons of little options pretending to be under one banner.

 

[moofpi]

A unified ruleset with customs is basically impossible because everybody who wants customs on want completely different things. It's not on Vs. off, it's ten sets Vs. imports Vs. one set no default Vs. bans Vs. no bans. Vs. off. You have one widely supported option against tons of little options pretending to be under one banner.

Imports aren't allowed for various reasons, A) With the Ampharos pack everyone knows a standard of what options their opponent has and can look it up way in advance.
B) Tournament logistics of course.
C) With the Ampharos pack, if you imported you would be overriding a slot of a custom someone else may have expected to be on there.
D) And this is the biggest one: It prevents cheating. You cannot change 3DS custom sets that are imported, so if the 10 that are put on there by the TO or someone working with the TO you can know they are all standard. You can put equipment on characters and if their stats are negative -1 or -2 on all of them but with effects, it still shows up as Balanced. We do not need that variable discrediting customs as a whole.

The only one that may be okay is if you have a special Mii you want to import or something because they aren't limited in sets I don't think, as long as a second party looks to see there's no equipment.

But the 10 sets aren't set in stone, they are changing 2-3 times a year. This is just the first version rolled out, AA Custom Pack Summer 2015. I love that because the boards continue discussion on what they want their 10 sets to be and why they deserve to be in the 10. People experiment all the time and as results change, the sets will change as more data is collected.

 

[Doval]

Where's the button to ban Shiek? Where's the button to remove everybody but Mario? Those aren't in-game options. Customs off is. Why can't I choose it?

Again, I don't see what this has to do with anything. There would be no trouble banning a character without an in-game toggle for it. On the flip side, there's toggles that no one in their right mind would use. E.g. Team Attack (which incidentally is off by default, so you can't argue that the toggle's default state somehow has relevance either).

Whether something is a toggle is absolutely irrelevant.

A unified ruleset with customs is basically impossible because everybody who wants customs on want completely different things. It's not on Vs. off, it's ten sets Vs. imports Vs. one set no default Vs. bans Vs. no bans. Vs. off. You have one widely supported option against tons of little options pretending to be under one banner.

This is a false dilemma. First, it's clear from the official EVO moveset project thread and the more recent post-EVO poll that customs are popular, so you don't have "one widely supported option". Second, I'd bet you the pro-custom camp would rather have any of ten sets VS imports VS whatever else over customs off.

D) And this is the biggest one: It prevents cheating. You cannot change 3DS custom sets that are imported, so if the 10 that are put on there by the TO or someone working with the TO you can know they are all standard. You can put equipment on characters and if their stats are negative -1 or -2 on all of them but with effects, it still shows up as Balanced. We do not need that variable discrediting customs as a whole.

I think you're blowing this one out of proportion. First, it's really hard to find a combination of numbers that adds up to all negatives. On top of that, it would have to be a special effect whose effects aren't visibly obvious. Finally, you can see any special effects when the person is choosing the set he's importing, and you can also check in the Custom menu after the import.

 

[moofpi]

I think you're blowing this one out of proportion. First, it's really hard to find a combination of numbers that adds up to all negatives. On top of that, it would have to be a special effect whose effects aren't visibly obvious. Finally, you can see any special effects when the person is choosing the set he's importing, and you can also check in the Custom menu after the import.

I have played hundreds of friendlies with people using various equipment loadouts, it is absolutely not difficult. One special effect that isn't obvious is Smooth Lander that cuts your landing lag in half. Another is moon launcher that increases attacks going upward by 1.3x. You then balance it out with a badge that does nothing but but keep everything just beneath 0. It's something we shouldn't have to check for or worry about.

 

[LancerStaff]

Again, I don't see what this has to do with anything. There would be no trouble banning a character without an in-game toggle for it. On the flip side, there's toggles that no one in their right mind would use. E.g. Team Attack (which incidentally is off by default, so you can't argue that the toggle's default state somehow has relevance either).

Whether something is a toggle is absolutely irrelevant.This is a false dilemma. First, it's clear from the official EVO moveset project thread and the more recent post-EVO poll that customs are popular, so you don't have "one widely supported option". Second, I'd bet you the pro-custom camp would rather have any of ten sets VS imports VS whatever else over customs off.
I think you're blowing this one out of proportion. First, it's really hard to find a combination of numbers that adds up to all negatives. On top of that, it would have to be a special effect whose effects aren't visibly obvious. Finally, you can see any special effects when the person is choosing the set he's importing, and you can also check in the Custom menu after the import.

Yes it does. The game was ment to be played with Shiek playable. Banning her is just an extra, arbitrary rule. Whereas customs on or off needs to be specified. The game was ment to be played with and without customs. It's like stock Vs. time or 1v1s Vs. FFAs. It's a built-in option, not some scrubby rule.

Have you seen extreme division surrounding customs on rulesets? It's as heated as customs on or off. Most people I see won't be happy unless it's their exact ruleset.

 

[T0MMY]

They're definitely beatable, but are a chore to fight against. I want to actually have fun while I'm playing this game.

Are you sure "fun" is foundational to competitive rules? I think it is applicable to "casual" discussion and does not belong in "competitive" discussion regarding foundations of rules used.

I think we should ban the use of wavedashing in Melee.

(For the record, I do not actually support banning wavedashing.)

Although a humorous analogy, it's too different of an argument to compare a technique that exploits an oversight of game mechanics and an argument in favor of turning on an in-game option that allows randomly rewarded Custom Parts to be used for some Custom Fighters.

The problem with calling it a "menu toggle" is that the scope of the toggle is kind of enormous. In reality the "toggle" is access to some 500+ clone characters. Turning off customs is absolutely a character ban.

I don't think a re-imagining of what a "character" is in order to err to Ban Criteria amounts to much more than grasping at straws.
However, if we follow this (customs off = ban) logic then it is readily demonstrable that not all custom sets can be represented (due to the 10 custom character limit). This entails that you are banning characters and thus this is then apparently contradictory.

Contrast this entailing conclusion with the argument that states a rules change must be validated through reasonable means - this argument would be stronger since it is non-contradictory (the game starts with no Customs and we need reason to change this).

Custom Fighters OFF > grasping at straws > Contradiction

Let us perform a little thought experiment.

Just as an FYI, I interpret "thought experiment" as someone trying to conjure an illusionary scenario and "pull a fast one" trying to trick me into believing this illusionary world is real.
Sure, I'll take the bait - but I'll approach it as such.

Suppose, if you will, that there is no Customs On/Off toggle. Everything else about custom moves is the same...

In this hypothetical scenario, do you think that we should consider allowing custom fighters as the "default" option?

I would say I couldn't accurately give you an answer, from my understanding of the imaginary scenario, considering the game would have no definition of "custom fighters". So creating rules around something that is not defined would have no function.

But now I'll predict the next step of the conversation and predict that the selection choice of characters is to be considered the "custom fighters" for all intents and purposes:
Following Competitive Theory, the competitive players should play the game as it is presented with no rules change. There would be no argument for considering allowing custom fighters as the "default" option since it would fall under my commonly used ruleset "rule #3: Play the Game".

Simple answer: No, I don't think there should be consideration to "allow" custom fighters, because it is unnecessary - there is no burden of proof to simply play the game; the burden falls on those who wish to change the rules. As far as I can tell no rules would be required to be changed.

If your methodology treats these two situations differently simply because of a UI change, then your line of reasoning is flawed at a very fundamental level.

Demonstrate how this flaw can possibly exist. It is the same argument as Mii fighters which can use movesets without Custom Fighters ON - I remain a proponent of full use of Mii fighters moves and height/weight despite Customs OFF.
Until demonstrated I just see your "flawed" accusation based on a strawman or just a red herring depending on where you want to go with it, and hasn't changed my opinion in the slightest.

 

[GeneralLedge]

<HEAVY SARCASM>
We should enforce default controller settings, because that's an object that needs to be specified per player. Too time-consuming.

We should also enforce the removal of all unlockable characters and stages, because that's something that needs an active hand in attaining with a new copy of the game. Too much work, IMO.
</HEAVY SARCASM>

On an aside, Miis have access to everything with customs-off, so let's end that sub-argument there I guess.

 

[deepseadiva]

I don't think a re-imagining of what a "character" is in order to err to Ban Criteria amounts to much more than grasping at straws.
However, if we follow this (customs off = ban) logic then it is readily demonstrable that not all custom sets can be represented (due to the 10 custom character limit). This entails that you are banning characters and thus this is then apparently contradictory.

That's not a contradiction. You are right, 10 chosen sets bans a lot of characters. The idea is that we'd rather have ten over nothing.

Luigi with Ice Balls is a different character than Luigi with Fireballs.

They function differently. Its not a costume change. Turning customs off is a character ban which comes with a burden on proof. There's no way of manipulating that truth.

 

[T0MMY]

That's not a contradiction.

It is a contradiction, I demonstrated it.
If a character can have more than 10 different movesets and you limit down to just 10 characters then you are banning the remainder (71 characters would be banned as demonstrated in spoiler below).

To say not using custom fighters equates to banning them would logically entail that not using all custom fighters is equatable to banning them.
Thus it is in direct contradiction with not using Custom Fighters due to bans.

If something is contradictory then it is a very weak argument, nearly anything could displace it.
Leaving the Custom Fighters button at the default "Off" setting is a stronger argument for a competitively viable ruleset (for a number of reasons, but for this specific argument it is stronger because the contrary is contradictory!).

Spoiler

Example of how many different "characters" there are in this argument by banned:
There are four special moves (Standard Special, Up Special, Down Special, and Side Special) that may be configured with three different Special Moves (named 1, 2, and 3 commonly).
A single character can have these combinations:

Spoiler

1. 1111
2. 1112
3. 1113
4. 1121
5. 1122
6. 1123
7. 1131
8. 1132
9. 1133
10. 1211
11. 1212
12. 1213
13. 1221
14. 1222
15. 1223
16. 1231
17. 1232
18. 1233
    
19. 1311
20. 1312
21. 1313
22. 1321
23. 1322
24. 1323
25. 1331
26. 1332
    
27. 1333
28. 2111
29. 2112
30. 2113
31. 2121
32. 2122
33. 2123
34. 2131
35. 2132
36. 2133
37. 2211
38. 2212
39. 2213
40. 2221
41. 2222
42. 2223
43. 2231
44. 2232
45. 2233
46. 2311
47. 2312
48. 2313
49. 2321
50. 2322
51. 2323
52. 2331
53. 2332
54. 2333
55. 3111
56. 3112
57. 3113
58. 3121
59. 3122
60. 3123
61. 3131
62. 3132
63. 3133
64. 3211
65. 3212
66. 3213
67. 3221
68. 3222
69. 3223
70. 3231
71. 3232
72. 3233
73. 3311
74. 3312
75. 3313
76. 3321
77. 3322
78. 3323
79. 3331
80. 3332
81. 3333

You are right, 10 chosen sets bans a lot of characters. The idea is that we'd rather have ten over nothing.

Nobody I saw is saying you have a catch-22 "ten or nothing" ultimatum. There is room for customs used competitively, but Custom Fighters are a complete shift in metagame that needs to be thoroughly vetted and I would see it as a travesty if otherwise.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Have you guys forgotten that there are only eight sets? EVO forced us to use ten because they didn't want people uploading their own sets and wasting time, but the project was designed to have two open slots available for someone to upload any set they want. Those 71 extra sets aren't actually banned.

 

[T0MMY]

Have you guys forgotten that there are only eight sets? EVO forced us to use ten because they didn't want people uploading their own sets and wasting time, but the project was designed to have two open slots available for someone to upload any set they want. Those 71 extra sets aren't actually banned.

The reason why that option was shot down was because people could upload with equipment that could be balanced to not show and essentially cheat the system.
Also the logistics gets even worse when every time someone wanted to upload a special set they'd either have to own a 3DS themselves or find someone who had one and create it on their 3DS before uploading.
Then there's the unforeseen issues like accidental or purposeful changes of sets that screw up the entire selection process and makes the event that much more difficult on the TO's.
At this point the practicality of trying to work it out in the real world is worse off than just admitting a contradiction and abandoning all logic.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

The reason why that option was shot down was because people could upload with equipment that could be balanced to not show and essentially cheat the system.
Also the logistics gets even worse when every time someone wanted to upload a special set they'd either have to own a 3DS themselves or find someone who had one and create it on their 3DS before uploading.
Then there's the unforeseen issues like accidental or purposeful changes of sets that screw up the entire selection process and makes the event that much more difficult on the TO's.
At this point the practicality of trying to work it out in the real world is worse off than just admitting a contradiction and abandoning all logic.

If someone has equipment, they will glow during the match. If you notice this, just disqualify them. Also, if I recall correctly, you can see what the set is when they upload it, so just don't let them use it if it has equipment.

And yes, uploading your own set requires having a 3DS. If they want to do so, then they'd better own one.

 

[Mario766]

The problem with allowing people to upload their sets is it takes time and slows down an already slow tournament with people having to upload sets to every machine they get onto. You won't be playing on 1-2 sets, you will likely be moving between machines every round which can lead up to 7-8 times you have to upload your set.

I went to It's Fine in Indianapolis and contacted the TO because they said to talk to them about uploading sets and that they would do it for me before the tournament began so time wasn't wasted. There was a full hour before doubles even began where sets were being added and my set was not added when there was only 8 sets for every character, even after I asked 4 times before and during the tournament where I got the same answer "We'll take care of it, don't worry." It was never finished so I had to work with un-optimal sets or sets I had not practiced. The only way customs would be used is like how EVO does, with a list that can NOT be changed when the tournament begins, it leads to zero headache and zero whining because sets are already chosen by the community.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

Uploading sets takes 30 seconds at most. While it might not be viable for major national tournaments running multiple games, it's perfectly viable at Smash 4 regionals.

 

[T0MMY]

If someone has equipment, they will glow during the match. If you notice this, just disqualify them. Also, if I recall correctly, you can see what the set is when they upload it, so just don't let them use it if it has equipment.

And yes, uploading your own set requires having a 3DS. If they want to do so, then they'd better own one.

Characters only glow with certain equipment.
Uploads prior to the match can still happen where you would not see the upload.
Even if this were all not an issue it is still only one out of the many I listed, and I doubt I can foresee all potential issues.

Customs comes with a lot of headache and that's the last thing TO's want. Compound with the players not wanting them that essentially means Custom Fighters will stay OFF. Which brings us to the question about Mii fighters which some have said are using "customs" when you create a Mii.
As a Mii main I'd rather just ban Mii altogether rather than imposing limits on the character.

 

[Mario766]

Uploading sets takes 30 seconds at most. While it might not be viable for major national tournaments running multiple games, it's perfectly viable at Smash 4 regionals.

Apparently not when the TOs can't put in 2 sets in over a hour of delay.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

So far, the arguments against custom moves appear to be as follows:

- Some custom moves are too good
- It's hard
- My TO is an idiot
- It's not the default setting
- A handful of players hate them for the above reasons

 

[Mario766]

So far, the arguments against custom moves appear to be as follows:

- Some custom moves are too good
- It's hard
- My TO is an idiot
- It's not the default setting
- A handful of players hate them for the above reasons

You're missing a lot, but okay.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

You're missing a lot, but okay.

No, I'm pretty sure I covered 100% of everything.

 

[T0MMY]

So far, the arguments against custom moves appear to be as follows:

- Some custom moves are too good
- It's hard
- My TO is an idiot
- It's not the default setting
- A handful of players hate them for the above reasons

You're making the mistake of pidgeon-holing competitive standards as having to shoulder the burden of making a case why Custom Fighters should be used. Big faux pas there!
It is up to those who wish to change the rules to Customs ON to provide reason why this rule needs to be changed (i.e. demonstrate the value of the rule change being greater than having it off for competition).

There is also practicality to think of - real world vs theoretical and logical debates. Just to keep that in mind (for instance, if no system had customs unlocked and no 3DS to transfer from then all the sound logic wouldn't fix that situation).

 

[LancerStaff]

So far, the arguments against custom moves appear to be as follows:

- Some custom moves are too good
- It's hard
- My TO is an idiot
- It's not the default setting
- A handful of players hate them for the above reasons

And the reasons for turning them on are...

- Because we can
- Because X character is more viable and Y is not
- They add depth created by the choices for about three characters
- It's slightly more balanced then defaults (apparently) for maybe until the next patch

Sooo yeah. The arguments on both sides are ridiculously flimsy. But at least customs off doesn't require any work at all.

 

[T0MMY]

Aaaaactually... it really comes down to:

Turn them on because the character I like is better (doesn't realize how much better all the other characters get nor the significance of matchups vs character ability).

Turn them off because I hate jank (doesn't care if you aren't having any fun).

 

[Scarlet Jile]

You're making the mistake of pidgeon-holing competitive standards as having to shoulder the burden of making a case why Custom Fighters should be used.

I'm not making any such mistake, and the burden of proof does not exist exclusively for one side of the argument. It's ludicrous to suggest at this point that there is some kind of definitive standard for play that isn't arbitrary UNLESS you wanted to make the argument that 2 minutes, items on, all stages available was the standard. Then you might actually have a leg to stand on.

 

[Pyr]

I think custom-related discussion needs a global "no feels" rule. It makes it impossible for people to actually be objective (both sides, bros). I mean, your character is effectively banned in non-customs because they aren't as good? Pretending that the game is less balanced without them? Saying it shouldn't be explored because it's not default? Customs are op or difficult to deal with? All 4 of these reasons are, bluntly, stupid and not objective. Based on feelies and not on thought and analysis.

No, things like "Only 2 of the top 16 at Evo really were boosted by Customs. Where was the difference made for all the effort?" and "Many high to top level players think they are unnecessary. Why is this?" and "How do the customs affect the top 15 characters? How many rise to that status in a custom on environment?" and "With the data we've collected, is the barrier of entry, no matter how small, worth the competitive play added as a whole?"

I mean, those questions promote discussion and actually further the topic along. Right now, all this thread is is the last 400 pages of character competitive before it was locked. Nothing is getting done besides defending a view without actually furthering it or discussing it. Honestly, the biggest issue isn't what they do or don't do, but the logistical issues they create in the long term. How are they going to be solved for players en masse? I can tell you one thing: Needing to buy a 3DS to use a set, that isn't one of those made by less then 1% of the community, is extremely unattractive.

But no. Instead of solving actual issues, we're going to talk about how a character is banned because they aren't as good otherwise, or pretending that this game is more balanced overall when it really isn't at all, or saying that we shouldn't explore it because it's not default or on FG, and even that some customs are just to much effort to figure out how to beat.

Like Every.
Other.
Customs.
Discussion.

For the past 5 MONTHS.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think custom-related discussion needs a global "no feels" rule. It makes it impossible for people to actually be objective (both sides, bros). I mean, your character is effectively banned in non-customs because they aren't as good? Pretending that the game is less balanced without them? Saying it shouldn't be explored because it's not default? Customs are op or difficult to deal with? All 4 of these reasons are, bluntly, stupid and not objective. Based on feelies and not on thought and analysis.

No, things like "Only 2 of the top 16 at Evo really were boosted by Customs. Where was the difference made for all the effort?" and "Many high to top level players think they are unnecessary. Why is this?" and "How do the customs affect the top 15 characters? How many rise to that status in a custom on environment?" and "With the data we've collected, is the barrier of entry, no matter how small, worth the competitive play added as a whole?"

I mean, those questions promote discussion and actually further the topic along. Right now, all this thread is is the last 400 pages of character competitive before it was locked. Nothing is getting done besides defending a view without actually furthering it or discussing it. Honestly, the biggest issue isn't what they do or don't do, but the logistical issues they create in the long term. How are they going to be solved for players en masse? I can tell you one thing: Needing to buy a 3DS to use a set, that isn't one of those made by less then 1% of the community, is extremely unattractive.

But no. Instead of solving actual issues, we're going to talk about how a character is banned because they aren't as good otherwise, or pretending that this game is more balanced overall when it really isn't at all, or saying that we shouldn't explore it because it's not default or on FG, and even that some customs are just to much effort to figure out how to beat.

Like Every.
Other.
Customs.
Discussion.

For the past 5 MONTHS.

Customs aren't more balanced... Not enough to matter, anyway. You have characters like Zelda and MK stinking things up pretty badly, and already oppressive characters like Sonic and Rosalina getting better moves they never needed.

For every positive change there's a negative one.

 

[Pyr]

Customs aren't more balanced... Not enough to matter, anyway. You have characters like Zelda and MK stinking things up pretty badly, and already oppressive characters like Sonic and Rosalina getting better moves they never needed.

For every positive change there's a negative one.

They aren't, no. It's my opinion that customs really only affects mid tiers and a few, select high tiers because the good characters in this game don't need to have 4 buttons changed because their other 14 (5 air attacks, 3 tilts, jab, 3 smashes, shield, grab) are good enough to carry them through, no matter how bad or good their custom moves are. I don't think the changes in mid tier, from a competitive standpoint, justify the logistical hassle of customs (even if my main man Ganon goes from Low to high).

But then, opinions aren't what should be discussed unless it's theorycrafting. If you think customs are jank, good for you. How does that prevent them from being viable en masse? What's your objective reasoning? What are all the positives and what are the negatives specifically? What are the non-obvious examples of each? What have low, mid, and high level players actually been playing?

I mean, if we absolutely have to have a pissing contest about customs, let's at least do it on the tip of the iceberg. Then, at the very least, we can work our way down.

 

[LancerStaff]

They aren't, no. It's my opinion that customs really only affects mid tiers and a few, select high tiers because the good characters in this game don't need to have 4 buttons changed because their other 14 (5 air attacks, 3 tilts, jab, 3 smashes, shield, grab) are good enough to carry them through, no matter how bad or good their custom moves are. I don't think the changes in mid tier, from a competitive standpoint, justify the logistical hassle of customs (even if my main man Ganon goes from Low to high).

But then, opinions aren't what should be discussed unless it's theorycrafting. If you think customs are jank, good for you. How does that prevent them from being viable en masse? What's your objective reasoning? What are all the positives and what are the negatives specifically? What are the non-obvious examples of each? What have low, mid, and high level players actually been playing?

I mean, if we absolutely have to have a pissing contest about customs, let's at least do it on the tip of the iceberg. Then, at the very least, we can work our way down.

Yeah, they are. gets demoted to her own tier for starters. and become unviable due to lacking any significantly good customs, and all lose significant ground regardless of their placement. At this rate, no DLC character will be viable in a customs meta... And we're getting another three or so at least, going off of what the data says. As far as top tiers go, all either gain enough to keep their current spot or go even further, as absurd as it is.

As far as actual balance improvements go, are the only bad characters to gain anything significant, but it's still not enough to make most of them them viable. The only top tier to actually become more balanced is and he's not much of a problem anymore.

 

[moofpi]

Yeah, they are. gets demoted to her own tier for starters. and become unviable due to lacking any significantly good customs, and all lose significant ground regardless of their placement. At this rate, no DLC character will be viable in a customs meta... And we're getting another three or so at least, going off of what the data says. As far as top tiers go, all either gain enough to keep their current spot or go even further, as absurd as it is.

As far as actual balance improvements go, are the only bad characters to gain anything significant, but it's still not enough to make most of them them viable. The only top tier to actually become more balanced is and he's not much of a problem anymore.

You know Ito (Default Metaknight) has been dominating California tournaments that have been riddled with the best Hammer Spindash Sonics right?

Also Greninja gets a neutral B shuriken that is the same as Sheik's grenade that sends you back toward them for an Up Smash. So he's fine.

I'm just saying man, you're talking in such sweeping generalizations like they're fact and it's not cool because someone is not going to know better and just be scared by this strawman meta you're spreading.

I feel you're still going off the premise that customs = better, it's not, it's just added preference. Once again, default characters win most custom tournaments. Remember that.

 

[Dinoman96]

As far as actual balance improvements go, are the only bad characters to gain anything significant,

?

 

[LancerStaff]

You know Ito (Default Metaknight) has been dominating California tournaments that have been riddled with the best Hammer Spindash Sonics right?

Also Greninja gets a neutral B shuriken that is the same as Sheik's grenade that sends you back toward them for an Up Smash. So he's fine.

I'm just saying man, you're talking in such sweeping generalizations like they're fact and it's not cool because someone is not going to know better and just be scared by this strawman meta you're spreading.

I feel you're still going off the premise that customs = better, it's not, it's just added preference. Once again, default characters win most custom tournaments. Remember that.

Skill beats out character advantage, customs or not. That's not my point. My point is that it's not as balanced and doesn't offer anything for the game.

And I've heard that Stagnant Shuriken is highly situational.

What's the point in adding a largely irrelevant choice, that according to you, most good players don't make use of, when it makes the balance worse? Only reason people are sticking to defaults is because that's what they're used to. If it were to become standard then they most certainly would use and abuse them.

Propaganda? Seriously? If anything, your the one trying to paint me and other anti-customs as monsters. Good luck ever proving that.

So they're irrelevant and don't matter when it counts? Then why bother?

?

Figures I'd forget her of all people.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

For the record, a local Roy player trounced the everliving **** out of me last night, and I was custom Rosalina. (Full-on 2313, even.) I won't pretend to be a top tier player but at the very least it shows customs aren't instant-win and it's possible to use them ineffectively. For all that may or may not be worth.

 

[LancerStaff]

For the record, a local Roy player trounced the everliving **** out of me last night, and I was custom Rosalina. (Full-on 2313, even.) I won't pretend to be a top tier player but at the very least it shows customs aren't instant-win and it's possible to use them ineffectively. For all that may or may not be worth.

It's worth nothing. It doesn't matter if they can be beaten, all that matters if there is any net gain in turning them on. And I don't believe they do.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's worth nothing. It doesn't matter if they can be beaten, all that matters if there is any net gain in turning them on. And I don't believe they do.

I think they do provide a net benefit, but I'm also the type of player that loves simply exploring options even if the options may or may not be optimal. I'd happily mess around with Paralyzing Needle, for instance. (Or I would if my Sheik was any good. Maybe Power Luma Shot would be a better example.) So customs are basically a giant playground for me.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think they do provide a net benefit, but I'm also the type of player that loves simply exploring options even if the options may or may not be optimal. I'd happily mess around with Paralyzing Needle, for instance. (Or I would if my Sheik was any good. Maybe Power Luma Shot would be a better example.) So customs are basically a giant playground for me.

I don't care about weak moves. I try to come up with uses for them if by some miracle it makes them useful in at least one matchup, but I don't really enjoy it... Especially since it isn't feasible to make a set for them. It'd be one less thing for me to deal with if they were just gone.