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Okay, seriously guys, Dsmash. *OP updated*

Juggalo

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I read it somewhere, I think it may have been in Rob's SBR thread. Overswarm mentioned how Nair is Rob's best kill move. And then he said something about how when he uses Nair after coming back from losing a stock it feels more powerful and then the other guy confirmed it. It may be in Scotu's physics of attacks, I'm not sure. However, I have noticed the same thing, that Dsmash feels a lot more powerful after I come back from a stock. I think this was yet another one of Sakurai's Method of "Balancing things out" So if you're down a stock, it makes it easier for you to kill your opponent. That's just my guess.

And just to reiterate a point: If you miss, whiff, or hit a shield, it will not diminish. If you come back from a stock, Dsmash ten times into thin air, and then hit your opponent, it will still have that level 10 knockback. So you don't have to make sure it HITS, you just have to make sure it KILLS when it hits.


arcpoint, you have no proof of a new-stock attack being any stronger than an attack thats been made fresh by using multiple attacks to get it back to fresh. you're going off of "feels like" information

sakurai never released the official algorithm for how stale moves works, all we know is what we can test. And turbo ether has you disproved there with this:

Completely fresh Dsmash:

In the center of FD, Dsmash kills Mario off the side of the screen at no less than 104%.

Dsmash, manually refreshed with 9 moves:

Identical results.
</this thread's relevance>
 

~ Gheb ~

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Besides, the main point of this thread is to use Dsmash for killing only, which is pretty reasonable
 

Ishiey

Mother Wolf
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Yeah, and even though I still don't understand the proof, I *THINK* I notice an increase in knockback, so... I guess its worth a shot, dsmash can usually be substituted for another move when its not used for killing, even if the damage/knockback isn't as high.
 

Turbo Ether

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Wanna point out that when grab attacking to refresh moves you don't have to just let them go. If you can only get in one more attack before the grab breaks, you might as well just throw them for the extra damage.
 

Juggalo

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Don't dismiss a threads relevance just because YOU think you ended the conversation, its a pretty a-hole gesture
this thread's relevance was ended by page 2. i just hadn't gotten on smashboards by then.
This thread is about using dsmash as a killing move. It doesn't take 3 pages to figure that out.
 

ArcPoint

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Here is some information I've discovered through about 2 hours of testing with Wolf's Dsmash:

Start of 99 stock match Dsmash -> 14% damage.

14%
12%
11%
10%
9%
8%
7%
7%
6%
6%
6%

^ Above are the real numbers, I hit GaW, and then killed him after each time in order to insure that
no fractions were involved.

-------

ALrighty, I just did some testing as to the diminishing moves of Wolf's grab attack, only the first attack does 1.5%. The rest do less than that. The first time I did two in a row, it did 2 percent. Then I completely refreshed everything, did one grab attack, killed the character, and then jabbed again, it didn't do anything. So if only moves that do "1% or more" are ones that refresh attacks, only one grab attack actually refreshes the moves. The rest is just damage.

------

Also just tested: Knockback. There is no difference between a Dsmash that has been refreshed by lost stock and a Dsmash that has been refreshed by 9 different moves. The way I tested: I got GaW up to a hundred percent by Fox's lasers, both times. Just to be sure the fractions were the same, and both times it went from a hundred to 115, so both were almost the same fractions. How I tested this: First made a custom stage with about 18 blocks. Take GaW to the second to last block, get him to a hundred via Fox's lasers, and then Dsmash him. For me GaW went 13 blocks. Also turns out Dsmash naturally has a diagonal vector, so the way to properly DI Wolf's Dsmash would be to have the control stick Up and towards Wolf.

Also, I tested this with a 12% Dsmash, and GaW only went 11 blocks, so the difference between a fully fresh Dsmash and an almost fresh Dsmash can mean the difference between your opponent living and dying.

Also, the blaster doesn't appear to do fractional damage. Damage without GaW dying -> 6, 5, 4
Damage with GaW dying -> 6,5,4. So yeah, hopefully it shouldn't be fractional damage. It does kinda make me wonder, but yeah, too lazy to test out anything other than Dsmash.

--------------

Just tested: If you whiff an attack, hit a spotdodge, hit a shield, or hit invincibility frames. YOUR DSMASH WILL NOT DIMINISH. This is pretty awesome because now you don't have to be sure it hits, you still get a powerful Dsmash =)

THINGS TO TEST: Knockback on everything with GaW at 60%.

Refreshing moves with 5 regular attacks and 4 grab attacks.

Refreshing moves with 5 grab attacks and 4 regular moves.

That 15% Dsmash diminishing list again, I don't like the inconsistent percentages there.

Cap on the "Percentage at which you can get your opponent to and then die and get back your 15% Dsmash".

Whether or not getting KOed by your opponent or Suiciding has a difference on this >_>

I don't THINK it would be different from suicides to KOs, however I want to be sure of this >_> Too many variables...

Re-test the refreshing from the 15% thing.

Test if Whiffs, hit shields, hit spotdodges, and hit invincibility have any effect on Diminishing moves. Also test the idea of clashing moves/canceling moves.

Test if blasters have fractional damages.



-------------------------


So, all in all, holy crap, I admit that I made a lot of assumptions and went by information that I had not originally tested, and yes, I'm wrong. Although, I did learn a WHOLE lot from this, such as grab attacks do not refresh the moves just as well as other moves, you don't get a 15% Dsmash at the beginning of the match, but after you lose a stock (Depending on the scenario) you do get a 15% Dsmash. And if you get a stock on them, and then do 10% you get a 15% Dsmash, but if you don't get in 10% you will only get a crappy 14% Dsmash. I'm going to have to go re-write my entire OP after school tomorrow.

Thank you Juggalo for challenging my evidence ^^ Kudos to you.
 

Ishiey

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Lots and lots of data.
._. Well, thats definitely good to know. How sure are you, I'm assuming with all that testing, really sure, but couldn't hurt to ask. And you didn't mention testing if moves that clash/cancel eachother out take up slots, because that seems to happen a lot, so if you get a chance, check it out.

Your data shows that grab attacks don't reset the damage, but do they change the knockback? Because at that point in the game, damage usually isn't an issue.
 

ArcPoint

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Yeah, I need to go a bit more in-depth with the knockback information, that's definitely something I need to test. I also still need to test that at what grab attack to attack ratio that the Dsmash returns to normal. However, I can tell you one thing -- Doing 9 grab attacks does not refresh your moves.

It's a little late here, and I need to get to bed, so no more testing until tomorrow.

But yeah, I'm going to add clashing attacks to the list, and I already have knockback added.

And I'm pretty confident, I tried to take out any variables and I re-tested practically everything on there more than once. However, if anyone of you guys could take the time and do the same tests, it would be GREATLY appreciated, just to make sure I didn't make any mistakes or anything of the like.
 

Turbo Ether

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I pointed it out earlier, but Downsmash actually does 14.5% damage or more. That's why sometimes you'll see a fresh one do 15%. Two fresh Dsmashes will take an unharmed target from 0 to 14 to 29 instead of 28.

Real numbers are rounded down in this game. That's why sometimes you'll see a stale grab attack do 0 damage. Now that we know attacks can deal less than 1% damage, judging by your data, it looks like if an attack doesn't increase your opponents damage by at least 1%, it doesn't count as a move refresher.
 

ArcPoint

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That could very well be, I'll have to test the diminishing of the grab attack.

However, it DOES do damage, it just does a fraction of damage.

Though, I see what you mean with the 14.5% Dsmash. I'll have to re-test some things. However, I have taken a character from 11% (Two blasters) to 26% with a Dsmash after I SDed. So I don't think it's true that ALL Dsmashes have 14.5 However, that does render one of my tests... inaccurate. I'll strike the inaccurate one through. And add another thing to my test list. Thanks for pointing that out again.

Edit:
Agh, that made me consider another possibility, do the blasters do fractions of damage as well? >_> That's gay, why couldn't the devs stick with whole numbers...

Omg lol, that makes my percents useless as well, if the fourteen percent set has 14.5 per >_> I'm going to have to re-test that as well... might as well do the same with the 15% set. Fractions are stupid in fighting games >_<
 

~ Gheb ~

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I don't know about cheat devices but wouldn't a AR greatly help your research?
 

Vect0r

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I use Usmash a lot. I'm just used to it :ohwell:

I ocassionally use Dsmash, but I don't over-use it.
 

Thirskk

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all i gotta say is thanks Arcpoint for all the testing you did on dsmash!!
kudos to ya!
 

Turbo Ether

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That could very well be, I'll have to test the diminishing of the grab attack.

Edit:
Agh, that made me consider another possibility, do the blasters do fractions of damage as well? >_> That's gay, why couldn't the devs stick with whole numbers...

Omg lol, that makes my percents useless as well, if the fourteen percent set has 14.5 per >_> I'm going to have to re-test that as well... might as well do the same with the 15% set. Fractions are stupid in fighting games >_<
I think a lot of attacks probably deal fractional damage, especially with diminishing moves being a factor.
 

Ishiey

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Yeah, snake's Dthrow deals 12.5% IIRC, it could just be in the japanese version though, I don't remember. Well.... even if all this stuff about dsmash being stronger isn't true, nice job with finding out about grab attacks not refreshing fully, because a lot of people thought that worked. Maybe you only get one slot filled for all grab attacks you do in one grab combined.... If I get to test this, I'll post results here.
 

ArcPoint

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Data post updated, might want to check that out ^^

I still need to test the missing aspects of the Dsmash though.

Also, OP updated.

And Turbo Ether, you mentioned on the first page that using it sparingly (You said liberally but you actually meant sparingly, right? xD ) has not been a successful strategy, why not? o.O
 

Turbo Ether

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And Turbo Ether, you mentioned on the first page that using it sparingly (You said liberally but you actually meant sparingly, right? xD ) has not been a successful strategy, why not? o.O
Lack of knowledge probably. I would use it at around 115% failing to KO, when realistically 125%+ is a more reliable number when you take DI into consideration. 135%+ for heavy weights, assuming a midstage Dsmash. At these percents a refreshed Fair against a midair enemy can also get the job done, which is why I really like Battlefield for Wolf. Or even a refreshed Bair near the side of the stage.
 

madattack

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Wanna point out that when grab attacking to refresh moves you don't have to just let them go. If you can only get in one more attack before the grab breaks, you might as well just throw them for the extra damage.
For that I guess you'd have to anticipate precisely when they'd break out of your grab to throw them. For me, since I can only guess, I spam the grab attack to make sure I get in those extra hits to refresh my moves.
 

ArcPoint

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The thing is... after the first hit, they don't refresh O_O

So just hit them for an adequate amount of percentage and just let them go.
 

ArcPoint

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Semi agreed. We have beat the thread to death, we should kill with Dsmash.

But this entire thread was intended for new Wolf players, since they seem to gravitated towards using Dsmash alot. Not so much the more experienced players. The newer plays looking to improve their Wolf, I figured being able to kill better would be an improvement =P
 

Juggalo

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actually, now that more testing has been done and more stuff found out, i retract my </usefulness of this thread>

Its cool to see more information gathering on the wolf boards.
 

ArcPoint

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Just out of curiosity, what are the damages supposed to be on training mode? I didn't catch any fractions of damages there. Aren't those moves supposed to be fresh like in a real match? o.O
 

~ Gheb ~

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It didn't hit correctly. If your opponent is too close, the knockback will be greatly decreased
 

TKD

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Very helpful thread! When I've spent my dsmash, I try fair next. Nair can be good I guess, outside the edge. In a stale move crisis, I try uptilt lol

Saving the dsmash doesn't always work out, since some people just beg to get hit by it frequently. The damage can be worth it...I think.
 
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