Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: King Dedede

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

On a specific note, I know several of the King Dedede mains were already discussing this in the project thread and wanted to continue the discussion on the King Dedede board. Well, if you ask me, that would be great!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

In other words:

@ Lavani

@ Jabejazz

@ shrooby

@ popsofctown

@ Nick Fury

@MrInsaynne

At anybody else that plays this character...let's begin.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

Out of our custom moves, I think only Gordo Throw should remain unchanged.

The high risk of a reflected Gordo removes any benefit of stage control a Bouncing Gordo could provide. Besides, Gordo Throw is so versatile in the angles you can send them at your opponent that I really do not see any point in using Topspin Gordo either.

All 3 variants of Jet Hammer are generally terrible and see very little use, if any, in any given match. Regular Jet Hammer would make sense to keep to confirm a kill against a shield break/whiffed rest, but since we also have FSmash, there's very little point in having another laggy/hard-hitting move.

Armored Jet Hammer could be used as a pseudo counter. Damage uncharged is pretty pitiful however.

Dash Jet Hammer provides an interesting downward aerial movement option that is faster than anything else Dedede has.
While still extremely situational; it feels a lot more useful than the other two.

Sets should overall be a mix of Super Dedede Jump/Rising Dedede and Taste Test/Inhale with whatever we feel is the better Jet Hammer with perhaps one set with Bouncing Gordo for good measure.

One set should be used for Dedede Storm for the time being. Its merits are obvious against Rosalina, and while there might be unexplored uses to the move, it's currently too high a risk to take another slot with Dedede Storm. Also feel like Super Dedede Jump is better in the Rosalina matchup, so we can basically keep that vanilla.

So 6 sets? Let's see :

1322 (Edited from 1113; just pick standard, Jet Hammer won't win you games).

3112

1122

3122

Bouncing Gordo Set : 1312

Rosa set : 2112

Discuss.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think that Gordo Throw should remain the default. Its utility outstrips that of the Bouncing and Topspin Gordos courtesy of the arcs, the velocity, all of that. Not much else I can add here, though I am curious as to what kinda **** we can set up with the Bouncing variant, so I guess I'm down to have at least one slot with that available.

Jet Hammer...ugh. I wouldn't even consider using anything aside from Dash Jet Hammer, and even then, I'd rather not use the move at all. Unless some mystical, magical tech rolls along that gives this move some practical use, I say to hell with it. I ultimately do not care about what we do with this move.

Taste Test is a pretty good alternative to Inhale. It still does decent damage and, more importantly, spits 'em out far enough for capable follow-ups and edgeguarding. Dedede Storm is...interesting. I can definitely see the potential against Rosa; it can slaughter the Luma outright or bypass it all together. Beyond that, I do see some utility for edgeguarding. We lose out on a valuable asset, however: a ranged command grab.

Lastly, the Up-Bs...Super Dedede Jump and Rising Dedede are pretty cool in their own ways. I really want to experiment more with Rising Dedede and see just how well I can kill out of a down-throw, but I like the flexibility afforded to us by our vanilla super jump. It just helps our recovery out in so many ways.

@ Jabejazz : I'm happy with your suggestions. I'm just throwing in my two cents.

Smooth Criminal

 

[shrooby]

In other words:

@ Lavani

@ Jabejazz

@ shrooby

@ popsofctown

@ Nick Fury

@MrInsaynne

At anybody else that plays this character...let's begin.

Smooth Criminal

Well, I wish I could comment, but I still haven't even unlocked all of the King's customs.
And the ones I do have are the bad ones...
With that said, I do not think my thoughts would mean much as it would just be based on just theory rather than theory and practice...

I tried experimenting with Armored Jet Hammer. It didn't work very well... I say either go with Default or Dash Jet Hammer. I can't say much on the latter's utility, but, in theory, I'd imagine it would have more application than Default.
Which really isn't very hard to accomplish.
In other words, in theory, I see no reason to use anything else other than Dash Jet Hammer.


Grr... Curse you, RNG, just give me the others already!
I just want to try out Bouncing Gordo, dang it! That looks like it could have some interesting utility. I feel like it could add some nice pressure against opponents trying to land back on the stage from above.
All I can tell is that the possible utility potentially offered by Bouncing Gordo does not really overlap with Default Gordo. It would require a different mindset, I think. It's worth experimenting with, at least.

 

[popsofctown]

Taste test is good. Not being able to turn around is not a big deal, I don't really know what the other downsides are, if any. Slightly less damage whatever.

None of the hammers are good for offense, but it seems like armored jet hammer could be good for getting out of juggles. Ever seen an Olimar whistle through upairs and get back to the stage at 200% in Brawl? Against a sufficiently floaty character, you could probably fastfall jet hammer past them, release jet hammer on the ground, and then be back in neutral, which is a particularly good deal if you were already at kill % before taking the Super Armor damage anyway.

If they fall towards you, you could hold it and try to use the swing to punish their landing (which requires really good timing on a rarely used move but I think would be a frame trap if you're super armored and they lack a counter or air grab?). So instead they would probably get scared and land on the ledge which maybe gives you enough time for a safe release.

Pretty much any use for any of the Jet Hammers is purely theoretical, but Armored Jet Hammer seems to be the only move with behavior that can't be exactly emulated by a combination of D3's normals and movement.

I don't have a strong belief in Bouncing Gordo. It's not that it's a totally worthless stage control mechanic, I just don't think D3 is a stage control character. I don't think his toolkit capitalizes on stage control, it's about spacing.

 

[Jabejazz]

Armored Jet Hammer is something I thought about to secure falls.

I personally never had issues on the matter; TripleD is a character that gets juggled extremely easily in combos, but can generally reset to neutral efficiently as soon as you regain control of the character because of his many jumps and amazing FF Speed. The matchups where Armored Jet Hammer will be useful are matchups where we can safely FF Airdodge without fearing any kind of punishment. But giving us an extra tool to deal with the matter is probably a good reason enough to consider this variant.

 

[Nick Fury]

In all honesty, custom moves are cool, but i havent went out of the way to unlock any of them yet. I'll get more in depth with D3's customs soon.

 

[shrooby]

I feel as though the ending lag from (Armored) Jet Hammer would make using it to fall really risky most of the time.
I mean, the ending lag for Jet Hammer is horrendous. My gut tells me a punish would just be too easy. Even if the opponent gets away from you to not get hit by the swing.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Not worth the trade-off, IMO. I don't think it's worth eating damage for a counterattack that's even more unreliable than most of the counters in this game.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lavani]

I feel as though the ending lag from (Armored) Jet Hammer would make using it to fall really risky most of the time.
I mean, the ending lag for Jet Hammer is horrendous. My gut tells me a punish would just be too easy. Even if the opponent gets away from you to not get hit by the swing.

This is the biggest problem I have with Armored Jet Hammer. At best, you're falling through a 7~12% attack and hitting them back for 12% to get them off you. At worst, you're missing them completely and putting yourself in an even worse situation than before.

I guess that best case scenario alone might make it worth it though. Not like any of the hammers are really notable, so might as well take the one that gives us something new, eh?

Bouncing Gordo I see having the most use in matchups against projectile characters. Angled upward, it flies 2/3 the length of FD at a really high arc, letting it easily pass over projectiles. In general, I'd consider default Gordo best.

I think @ Jabejazz 's sets look good, unless we decide we want a different Jet Hammer. If anyone even cares what Jet Hammer we have. Maybe in light of that, swap out the 1113 set for something like 1323? Not sure if we really need to devote a set to "default + different downB", and from the limited Dedede tournament footage out there I recall seeing Vex use 132x.

 

[Jabejazz]

Wow, you're right. It's like I completely dismissed 1111 in actual set choices.

Still torn between which Jet Hammer we end up having.

Just rework the move and give us a counter instead.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

It sounds like team DDD agrees that Jet Hammer is an awful move wih all three variants (can't disagree) and that otherwise Jabejazz's post covers his best six options so solving Jet Hammer is our mission now. My intuition tells me armored is better because it's a mountain of super armor which is really a lot scarier than a litle dash or the, um, nothing default provides. I forsee the following gameplay situation in which it would matter:

You're at kill percent and have been popped into a juggle set-up. If your opponent gets the chase, you die. If you get hit while armored, it doesn't really matter since you're at kill percent anyway. Just watch them chase you high up and use DDD's very high fall speed to get low enough to live while enveloped in armor from Armored Jet Hammer. That could actually win you games, especially since many of the good juggle characters are also really floaty and won't be able to get down fast enough to punish the big swing endlag if you correctly read them going up after you and charge in reaction to that. Massive armor may also have various gimmick uses, but that seems like a particular solid situation armor can really help with.

If this can be sorted out, DDD will pretty much be done.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Maybe I should test the armored variant more, figure out when exactly it gets armor...

I dunno, I don't care for the move in the slightest still, but beyond that, Jabejazz has pretty much outlined the best assortment of customs that I can see. My vote's in.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Lavani]

Maybe I should test the armored variant more, figure out when exactly it gets armor...

As someone that uses it liberally in single player modes, I can tell you it has unbreakable super armor for the entire charging duration, from the start for as long as you feel like holding it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Ah, thanks Lavani.

Okay then, I guess it's marginally better than useless. Maybe "it sucks" tier? Haha.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Jabejazz]

I'm personally fine with using Armored Jet Hammer as our default option.

Been using it a bit against a couple friends. Doubt I'll incorporate it often in my play depending on the MU, but it definitely has its uses. Probably more than an aerial dash.

 

[ccthirteen]

Do the dash and armored jet hammers also stop building damage at 100%?

 

[Jabejazz]

I believe it halts at the same damage threshold, it just builds up faster in the case of the Armored variant.

 

[ccthirteen]

Seems like it wouldn't be something you'd need to rely on below 100% anyway against most characters due to KD3's weight and recovery potential.

 

[FEFIZ]

I'm using 1112

 

[Rakurai]

I've noticed that the Armored Jet Hammer isn't completely impenetrable, and can be broken through by attacks that ignore shields.

The only move that'll be particularly relevant in that regard is Mac's KO punch, though.

 

[Jabejazz]

Which other non-grab moves are you thinking of that breaks Armored Jet Hammer?

 

[ccthirteen]

Perhaps test with Marths shield breaker?

 

[Lavani]

Shield Breaker isn't unblockable, it does a heavy amount of shield damage and breaks shields.

The only unblockables I can think of off the top of my head other than KO Punch are Palutena's Reflect and Meta Knight's downB 2 (terrible move, you'll never see it).

Although, smart bomb explosions are unblockable and Armored Jet Hammer can superarmor through those...maybe it's just an unique property of KO Punch?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

DDD's current sets are:

3112
1122
3122
1312
2112
1322

If we're going to expand, I feel like more Bouncing Gordo sets would be logical, maybe 3312 and 3322? From here, I don't really know; any of you guys have any particularly regal ideas for Dedede?

 

[dean.]

I think that Quick Dedede Jump is probably his best up-B on stages that don't have ledges to sweetspot to. I'm not sure any regions have stages like that legal though...?

 

[W.A.C.]

It sounds like team DDD agrees that Jet Hammer is an awful move wih all three variants (can't disagree) and that otherwise Jabejazz's post covers his best six options so solving Jet Hammer is our mission now. My intuition tells me armored is better because it's a mountain of super armor which is really a lot scarier than a litle dash or the, um, nothing default provides. I forsee the following gameplay situation in which it would matter:

You're at kill percent and have been popped into a juggle set-up. If your opponent gets the chase, you die. If you get hit while armored, it doesn't really matter since you're at kill percent anyway. Just watch them chase you high up and use DDD's very high fall speed to get low enough to live while enveloped in armor from Armored Jet Hammer. That could actually win you games, especially since many of the good juggle characters are also really floaty and won't be able to get down fast enough to punish the big swing endlag if you correctly read them going up after you and charge in reaction to that. Massive armor may also have various gimmick uses, but that seems like a particular solid situation armor can really help with.

If this can be sorted out, DDD will pretty much be done.

You guys need to reconsider your stance on down special 2. Watch this video from 6:21 to 6:29:30.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

You guys need to reconsider your stance on down special 2. Watch this video from 6:21 to 6:29:30.

I don't think anyone is wedded to any particular Jet Hammer set-up; all three seem to mostly be gimmick uses (which that DDD player was certainly hitting with down-1!). If it can be well established that any of the three are an actual good move, I'm pretty sure it would quickly take over all of DDD's down options.

 

[W.A.C.]

I don't think any of the down specials for Dedede are good, but the mere fact someone was able to do that well at that tournament with that moves shows that it probably deserves to be part of at least one setup and that it is not as useless as a lot of people claim it was.

 

[FEFIZ]

Guys, DDD: 1112 or 1113? The best Down B? I prefer 1112.

 

[shrooby]

If we're going to expand, I feel like more Bouncing Gordo sets would be logical, maybe 3312 and 3322? From here, I don't really know; any of you guys have any particularly regal ideas for Dedede?

I've yet to do any experimenting with Bouncing Gordo...
Because the game refuses to let me unlock it.
Before I talk it up or down anymore, I'd like to get it myself and see just what utility it could offer. Where it could be of use.
It's so weird.

I don't think any of the down specials for Dedede are good, but the mere fact someone was able to do that well at that tournament with that moves shows that it probably deserves to be part of at least one setup and that it is not as useless as a lot of people claim it was.

It was less about the move itself having utility and more about their opponent not really responding to it the way they should have.

 

[Dexmaster]

I don't have a strong belief in Bouncing Gordo. It's not that it's a totally worthless stage control mechanic, I just don't think D3 is a stage control character. I don't think his toolkit capitalizes on stage control, it's about spacing.

Wouldn't stage control help a lot with spacing? I feel like it would make it easier to predict where your opponent might be, rather than hoping you can't deflect a normal gordo. I really want to see bouncing variant used, I just don't know the set for it.

Personally, I want to see
3121
For keep-away tactics. I just find taste test more useful than inhale, and normal gordo for edgeguarding.

1313
For stage countrol. Inhale for spitting into gordo, jet hammer for rushdown.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
King Dedede:

1/3, 1/3, 1/2, X, niche: 2XXX

112X, 131X, 132X, 311X, 312X, 331X, 332X
niche: 211X, 212X, 231X

I have created a poll on this board for King Dedede's best down special. The X for every one of these sets will be filled in with the winner on March 17.

Otherwise, I believe this mostly rounds out what you guys were asking for. If there's something else of importance though, please do let us know.

 

[W.A.C.]

I recently unlocked all of King Dedede's custom moves recently and really like the configuration 1322 a lot. Bouncing Gordo is such a fantastic stage control move, Rising Dedede is a very fun kill move (especially off-stage), and Armored Jet Hammer makes the move way more useful. I've never used King Dedede during a tournament match before, but I will this Friday with that custom move configuration. Out of my six mains and secondaries, I feel his customs improve his tournament viability the most which he desperately needed.

 

[dean.]

Take note, this part here's a copied and pasted message! But please read it anyway:
As we begin to approach the deadline for creating 10 custom sets for each character, we believe it's time to make sure that your conversations are staying on track, and that we evaluate the progress of your discussions. As such, we have prepared a preliminary lineup of custom sets based on what your conversations have led to. Feel free to adjust and update this list as necessary. After all, we want each character to be brought to their best potential!

We are going to begin to create the finalized sets on March 17th, so make sure you conclude any discussion you're having by then.

Preliminary Custom Sets:
King Dedede:

1/3, 1/3, 1/2, X, niche: 2XXX

112X, 131X, 132X, 311X, 312X, 331X, 332X
niche: 211X, 212X, 231X

I have created a poll on this board for King Dedede's best down special. The X for every one of these sets will be filled in with the winner on March 17.

Otherwise, I believe this mostly rounds out what you guys were asking for. If there's something else of importance though, please do let us know.

No complaints here, you've probably done the best you can with what we've got.

 

[W.A.C.]

1322 worked very well for me at a tournament I went to last Friday, but I accidentally used his neutral special off stage instead of a forward special and the lag from the move caused me to SD and cost me the game. Since Taste Test has way less lag to the move, I'm going to use 3322 at the next tournament I go to. Here's hoping that works better.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Honestly, I can't think of any other sets to add to the mix. I think we're pretty tapped out over here, @ Amazing Ampharos .

Thank you for kinda covering our bases, though.

Smooth Criminal

 

[MintChipper]

Does anyone know if the up b that hits while rising and put you in freefall no matter what has a different vertical distance than the normal up b? I have'nt unlocked it so I'm not too sure.

 

[dean.]

Does anyone know if the up b that hits while rising and put you in freefall no matter what has a different vertical distance than the normal up b? I have'nt unlocked it so I'm not too sure.

Rising Dedede seems to have slightly more vertical distance than Super Dedede Jump (Rising Dedede can ledge-snap to a pillar 22 stage builder grid blocks high; Super Dedede Jump can only do 21. Quick Dedede Jump is 20. This is assuming that the grounded and aerial versions of these moves are the same...).