Official Standard Custom Moveset Project Initial Release

[Noa.]

You could do what I'm doing and eventually (co)host tourneys with customs on!

Speaking of which, @ DunnoBro , you'll be hearing from me in the near future...

Smooth Criminal

Where will these tournaments be?

I want to go to them.

 

[popsofctown]

Ehh, feels more like it's just the full cast being usable and legitimately scary to play against since they have more valid options.

I don't think it's a reasonable estimate to estimate the whole cast being viable. Enabling customs doesn't help THAT much. Once the game has matured I think there'd only be about 12 characters that could top 8 a national with vanilla customs, and I think enabling them takes it to about 30

 

[DunnoBro]

I don't think it's a reasonable estimate to estimate the whole cast being viable. Enabling customs doesn't help THAT much. Once the game has matured I think there'd only be about 12 characters that could top 8 a national with vanilla customs, and I think enabling them takes it to about 30

Well by usable I meant just that. Not capable of topping/winning a national. But some like WFT, Kirby, and Lucina just feel like they're lacking a playstyle or "use" since their options are so limited or tame without customs. I play them and I don't feel like I know what to do, or can't do what I want. With customs however, they feel much more fluid and "usable"

 

[Raijinken]

Well by usable I meant just that. Not capable of topping/winning a national. But some like WFT, Kirby, and Lucina just feel like they're lacking a playstyle or "use" since their options are so limited or tame without customs. I play them and I don't feel like I know what to do, or can't do what I want. With customs however, they feel much more fluid and "usable"

Even with Customs, Lucina will always just be Marth without tippers. But yeah, I agree with your point, a lot of characters will benefit a lot from the versatility giving them a real direction that they lacked before.

 

[thehard]

Smash 4 custom moves should be allowed. I'm gonna try and figure out a way to incorporate the fully unlocked version at my tournaments.

— hungrybox (@LiquidHbox) February 9, 2015

 

[ParanoidDrone]

D1 is also asking folks on Twitter to chime in.

Tweet link.

 

[Gunla]

Smash 4 custom moves should be allowed. I'm gonna try and figure out a way to incorporate the fully unlocked version at my tournaments.

— hungrybox (@LiquidHbox) February 9, 2015

D1 is also asking folks on Twitter to chime in.

Tweet link.

It's things like this that make me optimistic for customs in the future.

There was a pretty large fear that tourneys would ban customs after APEX, but it really does appear that it's just because it was so early in the metagame.

 

[thehard]

Here's to hoping Nintendo fixes Piston Punch so people can stop getting scared about its glitch

 

[smashmachine]

It's things like this that make me optimistic for customs in the future.

There was a pretty large fear that tourneys would ban customs after APEX, but it really does appear that it's just because it was so early in the metagame.

why, that's what most of them said at the beginning to begin with

I suppose maybe you think they'd just casually sweep it under the table over time instead? but eh, that never seemed likely

 

[Raijinken]

I asked exactly because Ike has listed 2222, and I don't really think there's a reason why you would prefer SideB 1 (Unless you prefer to do Ganon Choke chasing) or 3 over 2 since 2 becomes one of his most reliable kill moves.

Btw, to the guy asking about some customs. The Sheik Grenade that drags the opponent to you is still difficult to land and you would need a perfectly spaced hit to get the guaranteed UpSmash otherwise you will miss the attack.

I did the promised testing, and here are my observations about Side 2:

Its kill power is quite impressive from both midair and on the ground. Plus, it hits multiple opponents, making it potentially useful in doubles. However, its range is very short by comparison (half or so), and it's not very fast for its distance. Running it with Dropkick to make up for the lost recovery seems reasonable, but I can't see running it in any other scenario. 2222 has my support as a situational/preference pick, though.

 

[Galespark]

I did the promised testing, and here are my observations about Side 2:

Its kill power is quite impressive from both midair and on the ground. Plus, it hits multiple opponents, making it potentially useful in doubles. However, its range is very short by comparison (half or so), and it's not very fast for its distance. Running it with Dropkick to make up for the lost recovery seems reasonable, but I can't see running it in any other scenario. 2222 has my support as a situational/preference pick, though.

The fact that it is a command grab with such kill power makes it really good. You can still Ganoncide, catch rolls, punish out of shield, punish landings and grab shielding enemies. About the horizontal recovery that is what DownB 2 is for, and if you are too close to the ledge you can either side B or drop down UpB. It is not really that slow especially for all the benefits it gives to him.

 

[thehard]

D1 is also asking folks on Twitter to chime in.

Tweet link.

he also had this to say on reddit:

"This was Nakat's poll, apologies for not accrediting him.

I'm not on the #BANNEDwagon for custom moves, regardless of how "jank" they seem.

We need as much jank as possible to help shift the tiers IMO.

Let's figure out a way to get every single setup all the custom moves worldwide."

Really good to hear him say that.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

So I'd like to make a quick post. I've gotten my local TO on board, and in fact yesterday we ran a fairly successful tournament using your idea Ampharos. It's a small venue, but we had 3 setups all ready to go.

The main issue with most players was they weren't confident in using moves they hadn't had time to try out, but were generally on board with the idea. I'll admit I made a couple of changes to certain characters' Secondary lists to promote at least 1 more varied layout. Main one was DK, as I really felt he wanted Thunder Slap somewhere, so I put it in a 3132 layout. I took 2nd place out of 24 contestants, riding this said DK layout the whole way.

Next month's tourney will be run with the same ruleset, and if it continues to garner positive feedback, it will be a permanent deal.

 

[Balgorxz]

the best part of this custom moves discussion its that people that don't like them can just play standard builds

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

I've said this on numerous occasions, but I'll definitely say it again here.

I'm in full support of customs. They add extra depth to the game that otherwise remains dormant, and they allow for people to more efficiently add their own flavor to the characters they play, providing more opportunities for creativity & diversity among players. They also actually help further balance the game in many aspects. By sheer luck, many lower-tier characters actually have builds that make them substantially better, while most higher-tier characters don't necessarily get better, but just have their game changed a bit (yes, this includes Diddy & Sheik). Of course, it doesn't completely overhaul the game's balance, as the best characters are still appearing to be the best (from my experience, anyway), but more characters become viable, and that's a good thing.

I got a PowerSaves for Pokemon originally, but then I saw that Smash was getting codes, and I anxiously waited for the day that customs codes would be put up... and they finally were. Ever since then, I've been playing with customs with friends, and it's made the game a whole lot more fun. There are some customs that are outright broken (as I'm sure we all know), but those can easily be banned individually like stages are. (I can see, like, 25% of the bans coming from Donkey Kong, XD.)

It's also worth noting that the main focus point of Smash 4's metagame is looking to be the matchups. There's not really any game-changing tech, and it's not heavily comb-driven, so it largely boils down to knowing what character can do what against other characters... so once we learn the matchups with the vanilla characters, we've basically capped out the game. That would take years and years, of course, but it's still something that would cause the meta to die off sooner. With customs, however, the floodgates for matchups open up -- the amount they would increase by is astronomical, which means the meta would have a much larger chance of maintaining a strong scene even after Smash 5's release.

I say we need to get customs legalized as soon as possible. If we can get them at EVO, that would be fantastic, and using the method in the OP would be a great start.

 

[Nintendrone]

@ ◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ What customs do you think are broken? There are really good ones, yeah, but there are stupid-good moves in pretty much any fighting game ever. Look at B!MK's Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop, or M!Fox's shine, or 64!Kirby's utilt. Those moves are so good, as they're fast with so much use for disproportionate risk. 4!DK's Kong Cyclone may be really, really, good, and more or less outclass his other options, but it is not ban-worthy.

 

[webbedspace]

Honestly if DK became so powerful from that one measly move that he even squeezed out The Other Kong, I'd consider it cosmic justice and embrace it wholeheartedly.

 

[◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ]

@ ◥θ┴θ◤ | JJ What customs do you think are broken? There are really good ones, yeah, but there are stupid-good moves in pretty much any fighting game ever. Look at B!MK's Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop, or M!Fox's shine, or 64!Kirby's utilt. Those moves are so good, as they're fast with so much use for disproportionate risk. 4!DK's Kong Cyclone may be really, really, good, and more or less outclass his other options, but it is not ban-worthy.

DK's Storm Punch is a great example. The punch is already powerful, and then you add the windbox to it? The windbox also has incredible reach, making it unfairly difficult to recover against.

Villager's Timber Counter is another one. The sprout trips opponents, and the tree deals damage & knockback to opponents attacking it. That's not just broken, that's busted.

The final example I'll use is WFT's Steady Breathing, which momentarily increases her knockback resistance so much that not even the KO Punch can kill her. She might as well be getting a Super Star.

Honestly if DK became so powerful from that one measly move that he even squeezed out The Other Kong, I'd consider it cosmic justice and embrace it wholeheartedly.

Fear the Dong. Embrace the Kong.

 

[Thinkaman]

DK's Storm Punch is a great example. The punch is already powerful, and then you add the windbox to it? The windbox also has incredible reach, making it unfairly difficult to recover against.

Storm Punch also does a fraction of the damage and KO power of Giant Punch. (18% instead of 28%) I'm not at all convicned it's a good move, much less broken.

Villager's Timber Counter is another one. The sprout trips opponents, and the tree deals damage & knockback to opponents attacking it. That's not just broken, that's busted.

Timber Counter is legitimately one of the best moves, but it's sort of gimmicky.

It's not without cost. The axe goes from a frame-6 14% wavebounce-able ground/aerial KO move to a useless 6% tickle. The tree itself loses over half its power when falling, and is no longer a strong KO potion.

The counter hitbox has limited range and only ever does 5%. The tree only has 15 HP, and does no counter damage on death. Every character in the game except Marth, Lucina, MK, and Jigglypuff have either ranged poke or strong-hitbox aerials they can use to OHKO the tree. (Those 4 characters have to rely on f-smash, or use their excellent grab games to bypass it)

The counter tree itself thus isn't actually that amazing. The real power of the move is in the sapling.

The final example I'll use is WFT's Steady Breathing, which momentarily increases her knockback resistance so much that not even the KO Punch can kill her. She might as well be getting a Super Star.

Steady Breathing is neat but probably awful. You can only use it like once every minute, and it only lasts a few seconds. It's usually trivial to just avoid WFT for that brief amount of time. It is a move obviously designed for FFAs, and of little use in 1v1s.

Deep Breathing is just too good to give up, and Volatile Breathing's f1 armor is dramatically superior to Steady Breathing.



Real Talk: The two moves everyone is going to be freaking out over are Timber Counter and Kong Cyclone. They are both indeed good moves, but not half as good as everyone will claim.

Kong Cyclone can still be grabbed, and is only armored during the middle of the period between the two hits. You CAN hit DK out of it, both after the first hit and before the final hit.

Both these moves get a lot more tame once the disadvantages and counter-play are understood.


Edit: Command grabs wreck Kong Cyclone, though Nosferatu is awful and Chomp is strictly a forced--but 100% guaranteed--suicide kill. Monkey Flip is pretty good, both Bowser grabs work well, Falcon and Ganon default up-bs are solid, and Jumping Inhale is basically an instant free KO.

 

[DunnoBro]

Smash 4 custom moves should be allowed. I'm gonna try and figure out a way to incorporate the fully unlocked version at my tournaments.

— hungrybox (@LiquidHbox) February 9, 2015

AYY LMAO
He for real posts this just after seein this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._of_the_day_1_hoo_hah_is_the_least_if/cog5bt4

 

[thehard]

Yo @ Thinkaman I'm gonna steal those testimonies to defend those moves when they're brought up on reddit or elsewhere

 

[Raijinken]

Storm Punch also does a fraction of the damage and KO power of Giant Punch. (18% instead of 28%) I'm not at all convicned it's a good move, much less broken.



Timber Counter is legitimately one of the best moves, but it's sort of gimmicky.

It's not without cost. The axe goes from a frame-6 14% wavebounce-able ground/aerial KO move to a useless 6% tickle. The tree itself loses over half its power when falling, and is no longer a strong KO potion.

The counter hitbox has limited range and only ever does 5%. The tree only has 15 HP, and does no counter damage on death. Every character in the game except Marth, Lucina, MK, and Jigglypuff have either ranged poke or strong-hitbox aerials they can use to OHKO the tree. (Those 4 characters have to rely on f-smash, or use their excellent grab games to bypass it)

The counter tree itself thus isn't actually that amazing. The real power of the move is in the sapling.



Steady Breathing is neat but probably awful. You can only use it like once every minute, and it only lasts a few seconds. It's usually trivial to just avoid WFT for that brief amount of time. It is a move obviously designed for FFAs, and of little use in 1v1s.

Deep Breathing is just too good to give up, and Volatile Breathing's f1 armor is dramatically superior to Steady Breathing.



Real Talk: The two moves everyone is going to be freaking out over are Timber Counter and Kong Cyclone. They are both indeed good moves, but not half as good as everyone will claim.

Kong Cyclone can still be grabbed, and is only armored during the middle of the period between the two hits. You CAN hit DK out of it, both after the first hit and before the final hit.

Both these moves get a lot more tame once the disadvantages and counter-play are understood.


Edit: Command grabs wreck Kong Cyclone, though Nosferatu is awful and Chomp is strictly a forced--but 100% guaranteed--suicide kill. Monkey Flip is pretty good, both Bowser grabs work well, Falcon and Ganon default up-bs are solid, and Jumping Inhale is basically an instant free KO.

I played Smash Potato with the Timber Counter tree yesterday and it didn't kill at 90. It annoys the heck out of my friends (especially in 2v2), but it's completely feasible to play around, and the lack of threat from growth or chop damage is actually pretty big.

I'll keep defending Kong Cyclone until I become a permanent amnesiac and forget to press the shield button. It's strong in midair, but again, all windboxes will screw you up in midair.

And again, if something makes a custom banworthy, there is no reason a default can't be banworthy, so be careful what you wish for.

 

[Galespark]

Can someone link me to a video where someone uses Timber Counter in a match? I haven't seen how this move is problematic yet...

 

[Thinkaman]

I'll say it again: If we're gonna end up banning moves, default Oil Panic in team games needs to be the first to go.

(To be clear, I don't think it does.)

 

[Raijinken]

Can someone link me to a video where someone uses Timber Counter in a match? I haven't seen how this move is problematic yet...

I don't have a video, but think of it as a non-throwable banana that lasts for a very long time (that's the sapling). Then when watered, think of it as Wobuffet.

 

[thehard]

I've never understood the ban-happy philosophy that comes from players in the first place. They seem to defect to it the moment something strong or game-changing comes along. Like, do you hate fun? Shouldn't that be the last thing on your mind? Everyone needs to revert back to having childlike mindsets that desire to abuse the most ridiculous stuff games have to offer, instead of the prudish Committee Game Balance Advisers that populate communities now. It's way more fun.

It's like saying "He/she is not only more skilled at this game than me because they're able to take advantage of something I can't deal with, but they're also more creative than me!" (These are the same people who refuse to use a good tactic on the grounds of "feeling bad") People enter competitive communities without understanding competition. SMH

Although, this sort of thing seems to be a lot better in the Smash community than others I've been a part of, which is nice.

Anyway it's a moot point because no custom moves ever ever need to be banned (except Spinphony)

 

[Thinkaman]

I don't have a video, but think of it as a non-throwable banana that lasts for a very long time (that's the sapling). Then when watered, think of it as Wobuffet.

If Wobbuffet only did 5%, only had 15 HP, and couldn't hit the person who summoned him.

 

[EndlessRain]

AYY LMAO
He for real posts this just after seein this http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/c..._of_the_day_1_hoo_hah_is_the_least_if/cog5bt4

Dear Ken God.
I want to main Puff now.

EDIT: Regarding Timber Counter, the sapling is annoying, sure, but I've never had any problems with the tree. At all, ever. I don't really get what everyone's losing their s*** for. It's good, but not that good.

 

[Raijinken]

Anyway it's a moot point because no custom moves ever ever need to be banned (except Spinphony)

Is that a ban because choosing it is obviously match-fixing? =D

If Wobbuffet only did 5%, only had 15 HP, and couldn't hit the person who summoned him.

Precisely. It's also almost unusable in teams, just due to how much it will zone out your own teammate.

 

[Judo777]

Storm Punch also does a fraction of the damage and KO power of Giant Punch. (18% instead of 28%) I'm not at all convicned it's a good move, much less broken.



Timber Counter is legitimately one of the best moves, but it's sort of gimmicky.

It's not without cost. The axe goes from a frame-6 14% wavebounce-able ground/aerial KO move to a useless 6% tickle. The tree itself loses over half its power when falling, and is no longer a strong KO potion.

The counter hitbox has limited range and only ever does 5%. The tree only has 15 HP, and does no counter damage on death. Every character in the game except Marth, Lucina, MK, and Jigglypuff have either ranged poke or strong-hitbox aerials they can use to OHKO the tree. (Those 4 characters have to rely on f-smash, or use their excellent grab games to bypass it)

The counter tree itself thus isn't actually that amazing. The real power of the move is in the sapling.



Steady Breathing is neat but probably awful. You can only use it like once every minute, and it only lasts a few seconds. It's usually trivial to just avoid WFT for that brief amount of time. It is a move obviously designed for FFAs, and of little use in 1v1s.

Deep Breathing is just too good to give up, and Volatile Breathing's f1 armor is dramatically superior to Steady Breathing.



Real Talk: The two moves everyone is going to be freaking out over are Timber Counter and Kong Cyclone. They are both indeed good moves, but not half as good as everyone will claim.

Kong Cyclone can still be grabbed, and is only armored during the middle of the period between the two hits. You CAN hit DK out of it, both after the first hit and before the final hit.

Both these moves get a lot more tame once the disadvantages and counter-play are understood.


Edit: Command grabs wreck Kong Cyclone, though Nosferatu is awful and Chomp is strictly a forced--but 100% guaranteed--suicide kill. Monkey Flip is pretty good, both Bowser grabs work well, Falcon and Ganon default up-bs are solid, and Jumping Inhale is basically an instant free KO.

No lol villager extreme balloons is the best custom move in the game (barring maybe palutena super speed thingy, idk much about that one). It makes him practically un-edgeguardable (which I'm ok with btw). Just FYI

 

[DunnoBro]

I'd also like to go on record recanting my praise of steady breathing. It's crap and mostly going to come out 3-4 times at best per match.

 

[EndlessRain]

Oh yeah. Super Speed. We have not mentioned how broken it is for a while. Could it be that people have learned that it is not totally unbeatable and have thus moved on to two other moves, which definitely are?

 

[19_]

@ DunnoBro You are the ****ing man.

Seriously, not only did you managed to bring a customs side tourney to Xanadu's next monthly, but now you are uploading custom combos every day on Reddit?!

Bruh, mad respect.

 

[RobinOnDrugs]

When is Xanadu's monthly exactly? It'll be awesome to see how customs do in tournament play!

 

[19_]

When is Xanadu's monthly exactly? It'll be awesome to see how customs do in tournament play!

I don't know but it's not just xanadu.

THIS FRIDAY tourneylocator's shockwave will have customs legal,

AND

next Friday team spooky will host ANOTHER custom tournament.

Tell your friends, the hype is REAL.

 

[DunnoBro]

@ DunnoBro You are the ****ing man.

Seriously, not only did you managed to bring a customs side tourney to Xanadu's next monthly, but now you are uploading custom combos every day on Reddit?!

Bruh, mad respect.

I doubt I brought anything much, sounded like they already had it planned, I mean last monthly they tried two amiibo tournaments (that no one entered). Xanadu loves trying new stuff.

But glad you like the custom combos

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I doubt I brought anything much, sounded like they already had it planned, I mean last monthly they tried two amiibo tournaments (that no one entered). Xanadu loves trying new stuff.

But glad you like the custom combos

Speaking of the custom combos, I sent you a PM on Reddit a while back but I figured this one out in a bit more detail:

Lightning Falcon Kick combos into the knee, but it's not what you'd expect. Do an aerial LFK such that Captain Falcon lands next to the target and it'll cause a stun, a la ZSS. The stun lasts just enough to get through the endlag and prep a knee into their flight path. Training mode registers it as a true combo. It works at any % as far as I can tell.

I don't think it works on aerial targets, they have to be grounded. This means you have to place the LFK somewhat precisely, otherwise you'll hit them into the air before the stun hitbox comes out. It's possible to hit with the kick + stun but I'm not sure what the governing factors are.

 

[EndlessRain]

I got hit by that once and I was deeply and lastingly confused. Thank you.

 

[DunnoBro]

Speaking of the custom combos, I sent you a PM on Reddit a while back but I figured this one out in a bit more detail:

Lightning Falcon Kick combos into the knee, but it's not what you'd expect. Do an aerial LFK such that Captain Falcon lands next to the target and it'll cause a stun, a la ZSS. The stun lasts just enough to get through the endlag and prep a knee into their flight path. Training mode registers it as a true combo. It works at any % as far as I can tell.

I don't think it works on aerial targets, they have to be grounded. This means you have to place the LFK somewhat precisely, otherwise you'll hit them into the air before the stun hitbox comes out. It's possible to hit with the kick + stun but I'm not sure what the governing factors are.

Yea I saw, don't worry

Haven't had much time to test lately, but this is definitely one I'm going to try for soon.

 

[Galespark]

I don't know but it's not just xanadu.

THIS FRIDAY tourneylocator's shockwave will have customs legal,

AND

next Friday team spooky will host ANOTHER custom tournament.

Tell your friends, the hype is REAL.

Team Sp00ky's Smash Attack is on Sundays. And I believe its a biweekly.