Official Standard Custom Moveset Project: Fox

[Amazing Ampharos]

Welcome to the official Smashboards Standard Custom Set project. In brief, this project is designed to be a logistical solution to using custom movesets in tournaments by filling many of the in-game slots with the most popular and powerful sets for each character so they can be quickly selected without further 3ds import. This will allow tournaments with customizations on to save large amounts of time throughout the event. More details about the project's ideas and mission can be found here:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-proposal-we-can-make-custom-moves-fast-easy-and-legal.379555/

Our goal here is to find out what the most popular and powerful sets are for your particular character the best way we know how: asking you the mains of this character. To be clear, we're not talking about disallowing any particular custom sets or even imposing any rules in general; we're talking about making sure the popular and powerful options are simply accessible quickly in a tournament environment as our sole mission. We need up to three critical sets that represent the best options your character has that have wide general utility and from there to fill up to slot 6 with supplemental movesets that will cover less mainstream, more match-up specific, or even teams sets. Slots 7 and 8 are reserved for 2222 and 3333 to allow all moves to be explored more easily in the new metagame, and slots 9 and 10 are left open for 3ds import of non-standard sets.

Please list all movesets in the order NSUD, that is neutral special, side special, up special, and down special. This four digit code will be the naming convention so players can quickly and easily identify which moveset is which.

I know for many characters the default moveset, 1111, is a powerful and useful option. However, it should not be included; the game allows default to be picked regardless of what custom options are prepared so including it does not add any additional options to players.

I further know that some characters may find six slots a large number to fill. Others may find six very limiting. Do your best to pick out the overall six most likely to be picked even if some good stuff has to be left on the table or if some more experimental sets have to be included to fill out six. Every set included is time saved in tournament when that set would be picked, and we want to make the best use we can of these slots.

I would ask that everyone please be respectful of each other's opinions; this game is young, and the metagame is still very much forming so we are likely to each perceive it differently. This project will be revisited throughout the game's lifespan and revised to properly include the most mainstream movesets at the time. What we want for now is what will be commonly selected for now, and don't worry, other options are not being discriminated against as those last two slots are left open for 3ds transfer for a reason. This first version of this project will be refined throughout the rest of the year, but I hope to have a very rough draft up and usable by December 5 so TOs who wish to use the results of this project will have something to plug in for that weekend's worth of events. Thank you for your cooperation in this project, and we look forward to making sure the most useful options are quickly available for your character under this system.

 

[EndlessRain]

I think this is an excellent idea, and I think Fox is one of the more straightforward characters to develop builds for.

Let me get the ball rolling (All kill percentages are Shulk, no Rage effect, centre of Battlefield).

Standard Special:

Spoiler

I'm going to assume that most people are in agreement about this. Fox's default blaster kinda sucks. You can use it for a little bit of free percent every now and then (1% per hit), but the endlag means that it won't be much, as they. Option 2, which is called "Impact Blaster" but will henceforth be known as "Falco's Blaster", is Falco's Blaster. Hitstun, moar damage, slower rate of fire. Straight-up more useful imo, as the reduced rate of fire isn't really enough to drop the damage lower, and you can use it to gimp people out of their second jump. Option 3 is the "Charge Blaster", which has longer startup (0.5 of a second iirc) and less range but does about 10%. It can also kill above like 150% if they're at the edge, which surprises people. It has even more hitstun than Falco's.

I think Falco's Blaster is the one to go with here, but the Charge one might be handy against slower characters who you'll be able to hit without them closing.

Side Special:

Spoiler

Default is alright. It's a recovery move more than anything else. If you space it so that you hit them at the very end of the move, it pops them up into uair at higher percents, which is very satisfying and can grab you some unexpected kills. Lots of endlag, but you it's better than not being able to act out of it at all. Option 2 here is the explodey one, I forget the name of it. You do a shorter dash, and then you blow up. Endlag seems to me to be the same and the dash itself does no damage, but the explosion does 13% and has respectable knockback (kills Shulk from the centre of Battlefield at 150%, without Rage). Option 3 is "Wolf Flash". Literally just the Wolf Flash from Brawl, except now you can act out of it. Little less horizontal distance, travels diagonally upwards, meteors at the very end. Does 3%, meteor hitbox does 9%. Brings you from the edge of Battlefield to about two Fox-widths from the centre.

I would stick with the default since it seems to be the best for manoeuvring and you can combo out of it, but Wolf Flash could work too. Since you can now act out of it, you can use it to spike people without completely gimping yourself. I still think default is better though. Fox Burst kinda sucks for recovery, is a bit tricky to hit with, and takes a while to kill, so I would avoid it. Damage is fairly good though.

Up Special:

Spoiler

Now for the tricky one. The default is okay. Definitely better than it used to be, what with its greatly improved range, but nothing to write home about. The charge time puts a "Please hit me" sign on your head. The damage is quite good (26%), but it won't kill until long after your other moves will. It seems to have less endlag if you start and end it onstage, so you can use it to catch people out by diving right past their shield and then turning and grabbing them, but it is absurdly risky and not very rewarding. Hit the stage and you bounce up as if you were spiked.
However. The customs are a different story. Option 2 is Flying Fox. Just the default, but with no damage and even less startup. It comes out insanely quick,and you move very fast as well, making you much more difficult to gimp. Much better for recovery as they can't just hop down as you are charging and boink you to your doom. It travels further onstage, as it makes you slide at high speed upon ending. Hitting the stage at an angle also triggers this. As far as I can tell, you can't act while sliding.
Option 3 is my favourite move in the game: "Twisting Fox", aka "Barrel Roll". You spin. It moves slower than the default, and does about 13% damage. If you hit the stage with it, you follow the stage in whatever direction you were facing when you used it. But the best part is yet to come: It can kill vertically at 100%. If you catch the opponent in the main part of the move as you are travelling upwards, they will be brought just high enough to be launched by the final hit.

This is a tough choice for me. It's basically movement vs. kill power. I would, personally, go with Flying Fox, because Barrel Roll is pretty tough to actually use in a match.

Down Special:

Spoiler

Default sucks ass compared to Melee/PM, but we all know that already. Good against projectile users, handy for mid-air stalling to avoid pwnage. Doesn't do much else. If you stall too long, you accelerate back to normal fall speed. Option 2 is Big Reflector. It's a bigger reflector. Moving on. Oh? What's that you say? It has a powerful windbox at the front? It makes reflected projectiles weaker, and you have less time to stall before you go back to normal fall speed, but it can be used to gimp people who have vertical-only recovery like Mega Man. You can do a lot of the things Pit could do in Brawl with his wings' startup windbox.
Option 3 is Amplifying Reflector. It doesn't stop your aerial momentum, and it has no hitbox (boo hoo). To make up for this, it multiplies the damage of reflected projectiles by 2.1, which is crazy against Robin, Mega Man, Samus and the like and highly effective against Marth.

I would go Big Reflector here, with maybe Amplifying vs. heavy users of projectiles. You only need a split second of stall anyway, and the windbox is cool. Trust me, you won't miss the damage.

In conclusion, I can see the primary build being 2122 or 2132, with 2322 and 2332 seeing use as well. I haven't used Charge Blaster much yet, so it could prove to be very good, but I doubt it. And maybe people will start using Barrel Roll more than Flying Fox, just to have another kill option. Fox's recovery is damn good as is.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

So, how would you feel about:

Critical:

2122
2132

Supplemental:

2322
2332
3122
2123

That would seem to cover everything you were looking over. Any other Foxes have an opinion on this?

 

[Dean Maloney]

I've been playing quite a bit of Fox lately, and I'd agree with a lot of what EndlessRain has had to say.

Personally I wouldn't completely rule out the default blaster. It has its uses in team matches and when you're against space-control characters eg. Samus. It's true that its ending lag can do more harm than good, but good judgement of when to shoot should help out. I use either 1 or 2 depending on the build (usually 1X3X or 2X1X since 1 is more damage-orientated and helps build up for an up-B KO).

I've split regarding which down-special to go for. I've put 1 to good use in numerous For Glory matches, and it also has its uses as a stalling move in mid-air, of course. I haven't tested 2 and 3 enough, but the starting lag of 3 worries me since I tend to have poor reflexes when it comes to using the reflector. This shouldn't bother most high-level Foxes though.

Default side-B seems to be the right one for me, however I haven't gotten to use much of Wolf Flash yet. I find 2 too unreliable and predictable to use competitively.

I rarely use Fire Fox as a damage-dealing move, so I tend to use 3 as an up-B instead. Fox's recovery is good enough as it is, but I have yet to encounter the situation of being spiked while using Fire Fox off-stage. However, Flying Fox improves Fox's off-stage ability greatly since he can risk spiking the opposition while being almost assured that he'll find his way back.

My most-used build is 1131, but I'm definitely not the greatest Fox player the world has ever seen and I'm sure many people will disagree with my choices. I don't have enough experience with Fox's customs to contribute 6 builds, but I just wanted to make sure that someone spoke for the moves I mention above.

 

[EndlessRain]

The only advantage downB 1 has over 2 (as far as I've been able to tell from messing around with the two for a couple hours in Training) is the hitbox. Which sucks anyway. I actually completely forgot about doubles, as I always use Robin in team matches. I do agree that Blaster numero uno might be good in doubles for building damage (depending on your team and the opponents) but I think it would be more suited to one of the four "Bring your own" slots. It seems a touch situational.

@Ampharos: Looks perfect to me, but I think some more input is needed. Hopefully more people get involved in this thread.

EDIT: Brainfarted and forgot downB 2 cuts the damage of reflected projectiles. I tend to use 3 against projectile spammers anyway, but that is important.

 

[EndlessRain]

Oh, and some input on downB 3 would be good. My regular opponent mains Marth, so not much hope for a projectile-based match there. As such, I don't know how limiting the startup is, so I can't really judge it.

 

[warriorman222]

Oh, and some input on downB 3 would be good. My regular opponent mains Marth, so not much hope for a projectile-based match there. As such, I don't know how limiting the startup is, so I can't really judge it.

You'll barely notice the startup. It just doesn't come out on frame -2 now. more like 5. I was a a friendly battle with my friend, who used a Thoron + on me, I Amplify Reflect it, it goes fast as hell and nearly OHKOed Robin, who is in the exact middle of the cast in weight. I know for sure the damage done was at least 40%.

 

[elmike]

Hi,
First i want to say that i think that @ Dean Maloney meant to say 1,1,2,1 (instead of 1,1,3,1), because flying fox is #2.


For me, generally speaking, i would have this rating for the moves (from best to worst):

Neutral:
1.- Falcos blaster (2)
2.- Charge Blaster (3)
3.- Default (1)

Side:
1.- Default (1) / Wolf (3) (i think this and the reflectors are the most even choices)
3.- explosive (2) (i would never use it in a competitive battle unless some good strategy is discovered. I think it doesnt needs explanation of why...)

Up:
1.- Default (1) (i think this will be the 1st option for the majority, mostly because its the default, and recovery is pretty good --and deals more damage than #2--)
2.- Flying fox (2)
3.- Twisting fox (3) (i would never use it in a competitive battle unless some good strategy is discovered. It seems to be that the only pro is the KO potential, which will be extremely difficult to pull it off on a competitive battle)

Down:
1.- Default
2.- BIG reflector
3.- Amplifying (3) (i would never use it in a competitive battle. Because the extra starting time is too much.)


Basically, we have 3 good options for the lasers, and 2 good options for the other moves.

So, as you can anticipate, having an agreement on the best combinations is not going to be THAT easy.


I would say the absolutely critical right now without further discussion would be: (but that can change)
1.- Falcos blaster, fox illusion, firefox, normal reflector (2,1,1,1)
2.- Charges blaster, fox illusion, firefox, normal reflector (3,1,1,1)


Why? Because the default moves are probably as good as the custom moves and none of them provide BIG changes...except for the lasers!
Having different lasers gives fox fundamentals changes on his attack and defense. For example, using lasers now could be a valid option against little mac or sonic (or even for killing or starting/finishing combos if we use the charge blaster)

Im aware that the wolf illusion and the big reflector also provide changes, but not as big as the lasers do.

So, now, the other generally best options would be the rest of the combinations, giving priority to firefox over flying fox, simply because it deals more damage and its the default (and because with firefox the recovery is pretty good)


3.- Falcos blaster, wolfs, firefox, normal reflector (2,3,1,1)
4.- Falcos blaster, wolfs, firefox, big reflector (2,3,1,2)
5.- Falcos blaster, fox illusion, firefox, big reflector (2,1,1,2)

6.- Charge blaster, wolfs, firefox, normal reflector (2,3,1,1)
7.- Charge blaster, wolfs, firefox, big reflector (2,3,1,2)
8.- Charge blaster, fox illusion, firefox, big reflector (2,1,1,2)

9.- default laser, wolfs, firefox, normal reflector (1,3,1,1)
10.- default laser, wolfs, firefox, big reflector (1,3,1,2)
11.- default laser, fox illusion, firefox, big reflector (1,1,1,2)


I think that given the premise that lasers change fundamentals on fox gameplay, and firefox is good enough to stay with it instead of flying fox for recovery (and because is the default and the move we all know from years), for the moment we should only focus on answering at least one of this 2 questions:

1.- which is generally better: Fox or wolfs illusion for side B? (why?)
2.- Which is generally better: normal reflector or big reflector? (why?)

If we answer at least one of the 2 questions, we will have the 6 truly most critical universal setups. For example, lets say we decide that wolfs illusion is generally better than fox illusion.
Now we would have the 6 most critical setups:

1.- Laser1, wolf, firefox, default reflector
2.- Laser2, wolf, firefox, default reflector
3.- Laser3, wolf, firefox, default reflector

4.- Laser1, wolf, firefox, big reflector
5.- Laser2, wolf, firefox, big reflector
6.- Laser3, wolf, firefox, big reflector


If you ask me, i think wolf illusion is better than fox illusion, because it provides better recovery, and has the spike so you can actually kill and use it for edgeguarding. The trade off is that you lose the combo starting ability that fox illusion provides. But to be honest, its going to be hard to start a combo with fox illusion against a good player. So the biggest pro has almost no point at higher levels (imo).
About the reflector, i think the default is better because of the hitstun, but i have not a real argument to choose one above the other. So, because for me the reflector has not a clear winner (neither the illusion, but i think there are more solid arguments there), i would say that generally speaking, wolfs illusion is better than fox illusion.


So, my personal choice of options would be:

1.- Laser1, wolf, firefox, default reflector (1,3,1,1)
2.- Laser2, wolf, firefox, default reflector (2,3,1,1)
3.- Laser3, wolf, firefox, default reflector (3,3,1,1)

4.- Laser1, wolf, firefox, big reflector (1,3,1,2)
5.- Laser2, wolf, firefox, big reflector (2,3,1,2)
6.- Laser3, wolf, firefox, big reflector (3,3,1,2)


Any thoughts?

 

[EndlessRain]

Big reflector is generally better. Default is perhaps better against projectile users, or maybe it is outclassed by the amplifier (I can't say, as mentioned before). The hitstun on default is very nearly almost useless. Not quite, but near enough. You can do a glitchy stagespike or two, but that's about the sum of it.
Up Special:"It's what we've always used!" isn't a reason imo. Default has four differences to Flying Fox: It deals damage, it takes much longer to start up, it is a little slower-moving, and it doesn't do that weird slide thing if you use it to move horizontally on-stage. If you are using it to hit people, use 3 instead. 3 can be used offensively because you can hurl yourself at the ground with it without too much risk (so long as you space it well). Everything else is a bonus (the slide can be cancelled into grab! Don't really get how it works though).
I fail to see the appeal of the Charge Blaster. The startup is faaaaar too long for it to be used as a combo finisher. Care to explain why you consider it to be so good?
Regarding Wolf Flash: One thing about that "better recovery" thing: to reach the ledge with it, you need to fall quite far. Far enough that upB does starts to look like the better option. Certainly, it is a bit better if you are off the screen to the bottom left/right, but how often does that really happen? It's not as good for horizontal recovery, and the upBs can go at almost any angle, meaning it just makes you worse in one way and better in another. The move is still excellent, however, so I do think it should definitely be included. It is not so much better than the default that it should be the only sideB used, however.

You'll barely notice the startup. It just doesn't come out on frame -2 now. more like 5. I was a a friendly battle with my friend, who used a Thoron + on me, I Amplify Reflect it, it goes fast as hell and nearly OHKOed Robin, who is in the exact middle of the cast in weight. I know for sure the damage done was at least 40%.

As a Robin (semi-)main myself, I had expected it to be good against him. He has good projectiles, but not the speed to avoid them. So boost them and... A channelled Thoron+ does 31%. A channelled Thoron+ reflected with a standard reflector does about 46%. A channelled Thoron+ reflected with the Amplifying Reflector does 65%. And Robin is far too slow to avoid these. I'm still not sold on it though, as Robin can just wait Fox out. Is the Reflector 3 fast enough to come out, from dash, before Robin's Arcfire hits? If so, lovely. If not, stick with default in that matchup.
Oh, and @ Amazing Ampharos : I think 1332 should be one of the supplementary sets. Default Blaster complements Up3 more, and Side3's extra verticality allows you to avoid needing to use it to recover as often. So you get a set with more kill power and less recovery ability. I think the final six should be:

Spoiler

2122
2322

1332
2121
2321
1331

With the Down1s switched out for Down3s should it prove to be better.

 

[elmike]

I think i disagree with many things you said @ EndlessRain hehe

UpB: Playing versus a good opponent, it will be nearly impossible to hit with upB. I have yet to see it once in a tournament. Check out videos of tournaments, or just look up for zero, megafox or nakat. I dont remember they using it for a hit. Both firefox and twisting fox are merely used for recovery at higher levels. And for that, firefox is much better than twisting fox because is faster and travels more distance.
Now, flying fox its better for recover (i dont debate that), but also, i have yet to see someone capitalize when fox is recovering with firefox. So i think its safe to say that unless proven different, right now firefox has more universal appeal than flying fox, only because its the default, its better for damage, and its very good by itself for recovery. I dont doubt that in the future many (including me) will be using flying fox for recovery. But as for now, firefox its the default even in tournaments that allow customs. So without further evidence, i think it should stay that way.
P.S.: I'm trying to think for universal appeal, not for my personal preference


SideB: I highly disagree here. Recovering with wolf illusion its extremely fast, so if you have it equipped, its the first option to use in most of the cases (over fire fox or even flying fox). It gives less time to your opponent to plan how to edge-guard you. And the good thing is that you still have the upB in case wolf wasnt enough(otherwise, if you use upB first, and you fail..you are doomed). Also Its much safer to recover with wolf than fox illusion, because it also gives the enemy less options to edge-guard.


Charge blaster: Sorry i made a mistake saying it was a combo finisher. I meant to say edge-guarding tool.
When you send an opponent off-stage, if you time good the laser, even if you dont hit the enemy, you will force them to do something that is not necessarily optimal for them. So even if the shot is no the finishing move, it will be the setup to make the enemy recover in the most convenient way for you.
Also charge blaster makes approach less safer for most of the roster.
And last, if you use charge blaster to approach from afar, the other must react, and given fox speed, it could be a good way to start on attack on many characters (not all, of course). I believe choosing charge blaster over falcos could be more MU dependent though.
All of those reason makes fox having different options for both attack and defense, and that is why having the 3 lasers its critical an option is.


As for the reflector. IMO, the amplifying reflector takes too long to start. You have to be at good distance to correctly react with it, unless you predict the launch before the move starts. And even then, depending on the move, you will need a better distance that with the default. The reward is much better, but the risk its also much higher.

Now, my question is:
Why do you say big reflector is generally better than the default reflector?
Can you give examples of real battle usage? (i ask this because i honestly dont know)

 

[EndlessRain]

Big reflector is generally better because its upside (the windbox) isn't balanced by any significant downsides in a lot of matchups. I'll go into the use of the windbox in a minute, but first, the downsides: 1) No hitbox, therefore no stun or damage, therefore... You can't use it to attack? You always have a better option anyway. It is a bad attack. 2) You return to normal fall speed quicker when using it to stall. You only need like a half second of stall anyway. This doesn't make a difference most of the time. 3) It is worse for reflecting projectiles. This is the important one, but it doesn't affect some matchups at all, and there are characters with projectiles who you don't really need the reflector against anyway (Mario, Palutena, Yoshi, Samus, etc.). So just use 1 when you need to reflect things (Robin, Samus, Lucario, Megaman) and 2 the rest of the time. From what I have heard of 3, here and on IRC, it isn't worth it.
The windbox can be used for a lot of things, but the biggest use imo is gimping characters with strictly vertical upBs. For example, Shulk: His Air Slash doesn't bring him very far forward, so hopping offstage and using the Big Reflector directly in front of him will push him too far away to reach the ledge. It has a lot of reach, so on certain characters (the aforementioned Shulk, Captain Falcon, possibly Marth, and likely others) you can do it from outside the range of their upB's hitbox.
There is a bunch of other things you can do with a good windbox as well: You can steal jumps with it, you can gimp people in special fall (situational, admittedly, as it is rare for someone to plain miss a recovery) you can just push them further and further from the ledge, using the stall to stay within reach of it yourself. You can catch Kirby during his downB and slide him offstage, forcing him to recover from pretty low down. You can use it just before you land, to push people out of grab range. You can use it on the ledge, to push your opponent away from it and potentially trap them beneath, or at least force them to use a recovery move.

Wolf Flash does force your opponent to react faster, sure. It is used in my second "Critical" set, and in the Barrel Roll set, for that reason (and because spike). The problem I have with it is that to get to the ledge you have to let yourself fall below it (Also if your spacing isn't perfect it sends you through it -_-). I find side1 to be much safer because you can go directly to the ledge, or use it high, fall, and use it again (proven possible, iirc, by MegaFox), or you can use it to go directly to the ledge, or you can use it high, then jump/shinestall to avoid, then upB to the ledge. It allows for a greater variety of ways to get to the ledge. Side3 is good, much more useful when recovering low, and far better offensively. It depends on matchup and player preference which one you use.

I get where you're coming from on the Charge Laser's edgeguarding potential. I wouldn't even mind the windup or the laser's speed were the move further-reaching. As it is, if they are close enough for the laser to hit them, they are close enough to hit you before you fire. So I can see it being used on offstage opponents, but not really anywhere else. Still, I think it is worth considering. And further play with the default has gotten me used to it: I think you have the right idea with the three-laser setup (Still don't agree on the "one side special, one up special" thing tho ).

Regarding the up specials, it seems we are in disagreement due to a difference in how we are approaching this project. I think we are better off finding the things we agree on before moving on to the philosophy of what we are trying to achieve. To that end, I think we should determine what the most effective custom moves might be, and then move on to which ones should be used in the sets.
To that end, I won't talk about Fire Fox vs. Flying/Twisting Fox in terms of which should get the slot. We are in agreement about Flying Fox being the best for recovery, yes? And from your assertion that "it will be nearly impossible to hit with upB", I deduce that you do not think much of Fire Fox as an attack. So let's say Flying Fox is the best custom upB.

Now, it is Barrel Roll vs. Fire Fox. Immediately, it is obvious that Fire Fox has superior speed, a little extra distance, and more than double the damage, should all hits connect. Barrel Roll has vastly better knockback on the last hit, the charging hitbox comes out a bit faster, and the ability to turn 90 degrees upon hitting the stage. Fire Fox is better for recovery, Barrel Roll is capable of killing quite early, and is marginally easier to hit with (Fire Fox is faster, but fast it ain't. The turning and easier-to-land charge hitbox means point Barrel Roll).
Still, I would say 1)Flying Fox 2)Fire Fox 3)Barrel Roll. However, if you want recovery, you will be using Flying Fox. The attack power of Fire Fox is not worth losing so much speed. I believe the impressive kill power (and edgeguard opportunities) Barrel Roll provides make up for the recovery lost, particularly with Wolf Flash to aid with avoidance and vertical movement, and the ability to jump after it.
Thoughts? It seems like the value of Barrel Roll is subjective, dependent on how highly you rate its kill power and how easy you find it to hit with. I'll be spending most of my time this week hunting for ways to combo into it (though I use FlyingFox, myself xD).

 

[elmike]

Great reply @ EndlessRain !

I think now we can get closer to an agreement.

The arguments you gave to why big reflector is generally better, seems very solid. I will to try it more, but based on what you said, i think the loss of extra damage when reflecting with the default is worth given the other advantages.
So i think unless proven otherwise, big reflector is indeed generally better than the default. This is very good.

Its also good that you now agree (at least partially) on the 3 lasers.

I also agree with you about the upB. My problem is the extension to an universal appeal, where i think many people will stick with firefox just because its very good and its the default. Now, if we think upB as a pure recovery tool (which i think we should, given that no good universal attack/defense strategies have been discovered with upB), and we submit the options based on the type of variety, it should be the flying fox.

Now, the sideB. I like both. Personally i prefer wolf's because of the spike, and because i feel it safer for recovery even if you have to go below the ledge. Can you elaborate in which specific situations using this instead of fox illusion will be a problem?


This are your 2 critical
2122 (falcos, fox's, flying, bigR)
2322 (falcos, wolf's, flying, bigR)

Which i can agree, but only if this setup is added for the 3rd critical spot:
3322 (charge, wolf's, flying, bigR)
The reason for choosing wolf's over fox's here, is because if charge blaster is mostly and edge-guarding tool, combining it with wolf's and bigR will provide the best set of options for edge-guarding (i still think it can be used for attack/defense in some MU, but i agree that it will be mainly for edge-guarding)


If you agree with this, then we have 3 free spots, which i think we can fill it once we get to an agreement on the wolf's vs fox's for recovery (or once we get more input from other users)


This are your other 4 inputs.
1332 (default, wolf's, twisting, bigR)
2121 (falcos, fox's, flying, defaultR)
2321 (falcos, wolf's, flying, defaultR)
1331 (default, wolf's, twisting, defaultR)

If you change the ones using twisting fox for firefox or flying fox, then i will agree. And then it wil be only matter of removing one of them (which i think will depend entirely on what you say about the wolf's vs fox's recovery) ---My candidate for removing is the second one (2121)

 

[EndlessRain]

Definitely with you on the edgeguard set. Fantastic idea, couldn't agree more, yadda yadda yadda.

Regarding Wolf's vs. Illusion: Here's a situation. You are falling, having been sent skyward. You are almost level with the ledge. You are a decent distance from the edge of the stage, but still too close to use sideB (It would leave you above the stage. Not good). You can jump. Or you can fall for a split second and make a bid for the ledge with sideB. Or you can bait an attack, shinestall to avoid it, and hit the ledge with jump (not recommended), sideB (recommended) or a horizontal upB (lol no). Or you can jump backwards, sideB, and recover from below with your super-special-awesome FlyingFox. You get the idea.
With Wolf's, you have to a) Fall for longer before sideB to ledge is an option, and b) always do the backward jump. Wolf's doesn't sweetspot. You need to reach the ledge just as it ends, or you carry on straight through it, leaving you above the stage and stuck in endlag. If you can't bait them out, you are left in a bad position. Sure, you can just use upB horizontally to make up for this, but that means you have a recovery move you aren't using. So you either (probably) lose your jump and stay helpless for a bit longer, or you risk an upB, or you trick your opponent out after you and get past them (footstooling them for style points).
With Illusion, you are at a similar disadvantage when very low to the bottom left or right of the screen. It is normally a death sentence to be here, especially with no jump, but it is a tough place to edgeguard. Wolf's will get you out of here, Illusion will not. However, this is not somewhere you will end up often (unless you get careless with fair spikes). Additionally, it is more difficult to edgeguard this spot, so a jump and upB will still pull you out sometimes, whereas in the former situation, edgeguarding is easier, and thus being left open like that is more dangerous. It's also a spot you will find yourself in a lot more frequently.

That said, here is my (revised) proposal for the six sets!
2122 (All Purpose)
2322 (All Purpose Wolf)
3322 (Edgeguard)

1121 (Projectile War)
1321 (Wolf Projectile War)
2121 (Filler, basically. Suggestions?)

 

[elmike]

Nice!

I see where you are going with the wolf's vs fox's thing. Even with what you mention, i still believe wolf's is better. Maybe i havent play enough with it, but i havent been into a position where hiting the sweetspot for not landing into the stage is a problem (i do have been in a position where not even wolf's was able to get me to the ledge, but thats a different issue).


Anyway, the revised version looks great. I totally agree with the 6 options.

@ Amazing Ampharos , i think we have the winners

I will post again what EndlessRain did just to confirm

2122 (All Purpose)
2322 (All Purpose Wolf)
3322 (Edgeguard)

1121 (Projectile War)
1321 (Wolf Projectile War)
2121 (Filler, basically. Suggestions?)

P.S: Great debate. I will be testing the 6 set options from now on to see if i change my mind for any of them! (But all of them seem pretty solid to me)

 

[EndlessRain]

Well, I don't really feel like this is the end of it. We only have like three people's opinions represented here lol. But at least we have preliminary sets up, which should make discussion a lot easier. We can work from a base, instead of the formless debate we've been having.
Then again, that might just be my Smogon shining through. Maybe custom movesets (at least for Fox, not going to mention Lucario) are less complicated than I thought, and we really do have the best sets laid out before us. I think the shakiest sets are the supplemental ones, the criticals seem pretty foolproof. It depends on how useful people think Blaster still is after the projectile nerf.
Having said that, I think we are good to go with the sets we have. A pretty nice prototype setup imo. Maybe someone will come in with some better suggestions, but for now I think we have it.

 

[Protom]

Default:
All seem like good options. I personally use default, as the ending/startup lag on the other two bothers me a lot.
Side:
Default is probably the one to go with, though wolf flash might be a good option. Explodey seems kinda meh..
Up:
I feel that both customs are better than the original. Sure, it's a balance, but up 2s recovery is infinitely better and up 3 (BEST CUSTOM MOVE EVER!!!!! ) is practically better than the original in every way other than it being slow. it can KO many at about 100%, angles off the ground, and can be used out of shield nicely in certain situations.
Down:
I don't know what to say for this one. defaults ok, but big is the best against non projectile users, and amplifying can be good against the likes of samus, mega man, lucario, etc.

Sets I'd recommend:
3-3-3-2 (wolf set. Maybe different reflector)
1-1-3-1
2-1-3-1
3-1-3-1
1-1-2-1
2-1-2-1
2-2-2-2
3-3-3-3
In all of these the reflector is interchangeable honestly. I left it at 1 because that's what I usually use, but I acknowledge that I have little knowledge of the other 2

 

[Comorant]

Just gonna note here, both Custom recoveries have shorter distance. While its not too bad, it becomes major noticeable at certain vertical angles.

 

[elmike]

Just gonna note here, both Custom recoveries have shorter distance. While its not too bad, it becomes major noticeable at certain vertical angles.

I logged in to the forum just to post that! lol

I thought flying fox recovered the same distance that firefox, but yesterday i died in a situation where i was 100% sure i would have survived with firefox. Then i went to training and confirmed that indeed firefox has more range. I'm having second thoughts now if flying fox is always a better option than firefox...
Tonight I will run some tests to see if using wolf's + flying fox travels more distance (safely) than flying fox+illusion.

If it does, then flying fox will be my 1st option only if its combined with wolfs. Otherwise, i will go back to firefox...

 

[EndlessRain]

Flying Fox's reduced range is very slight. I have noticed it once or twice, but have never had it result in a death that could have been avoidable. I still maintain that it is better than default.
@ Protom All the neutral specials have the same amount of endlag. Also, would you mind going into a little more detail on the sets you have posted which differ from the sets elmike and I came up with, and why they do? It's just that I' having a little trouble seeing, for example, why you run Barrel Roll with Charge Blaster and Wolf Flash. I can't quite follow your reasoning on that and some other sets, so explanations would help greatly (Obviously you don't need to explain the sets which have already been put up).

 

[Protom]

@ EndlessRain The charge blaster barrel roll wolf flash set was just a wolf set. not neccesary, just threw it out there.
thanks for the info on the blaster slag!
Anyways, my thoughts on the 6 sets mentioned above:

2122 (All Purpose) Good set. can't argue with it.
2322 (All Purpose Wolf) Set above just with wolf flash. useful change against certain characters, can't argue.
3322 (Edgeguard) Set above just with charge blaster. I can see how it could be useful against certain characters. I like the idea of an edge gaurd set.
1121 (Projectile War) I understand the idea behind this one, though for this set and the one below I think amplifying reflector could be a better option. if u really expect the match to be a projectile war, (say your vs mega man or samus or link) a well timed down 3 after not using it for a while/all math could be good.
1321 (Wolf Projectile War) see above regarding reflector. Also, I personally don't think 2 projectile war sets are neccesary, but I guess it's fine until/unless a really mandatory set is discovered that's not on this list.
2121 (Filler, basically. Suggestions?) it might just be my bias for twisting fox showing, but for the filler I feel a 1332 or 2332 would be good. That, or maybe the all purpose set but with fire fox after seeing the minor discoveries about distance above.

So those are my thoughts. I main fox and have a lot of experience against many characters from playing people at my school (many if which I consider as good as me) and competitive friends online. The falco lasers do come in handy I find when VS larger characters (DK, bowser). Twisting fox I use constantly, though I find choosing it over flying fox depends on the stage for me, not the match up. On FD And omegas flying fox is a better chice, but on battlefield and yoshis I always go twisting fox due to being able to kill off the top early thanks to platforms and such. Amplifying reflector I rarely use, but when I do I use it rarely throughout the match and pull it out when my opponent least expects/ forgets. (Ex. VS link with piercing arrows. He's charging one up. We're both at 1 stock and high percentage, though he's not over 100% yet? I whip out amplifying and just stand there, basically forcing him to either shoot and kill himself due to not possibly being able to shield in time, or be that guy who waits for sudden death).

 

[EndlessRain]

The Projectile War sets have the default reflector because it comes out so much faster. Vs. Mega Man, Pac Man, and Link especially, this is important. Mega Man can fill the screen with so many projectiles that dropping the shield can be very dangerous, as you can reflect one projectile, but then just get hit by another. Default mitigates this by coming up instantly, so you can just bounce the projectile, release the reflector, and then have it back up to bounce back the surprise Charge Shot. With Amplifying... Sure, the pellet you reflected was twice as strong, but you can't get the reflector out again fast enough to stop the Charge Shot. You could just hold it up, but then you get grabbed. Getting grabbed by Mega Man is never fun. Same goes for Pac Man, stop a Bonus Fruit, get hit with a different one. Against Link, you just can't stop the arrows with Amplifier unless he charges them while you are onstage (Though in that situation, Amplifier is incredible). It moves too damn fast. Default and good reflexes seriously take the sting out of them.
Barrel Roll/Twisting Fox: Have you any good ways to combo into it/hit with it at all? Because I would love to use a set with it, but I just can't seem to get it to work... I can even land Fire Foxes sometimes in For Glory, but not the one that works as an actual kill move, oh no. I think the best set for it would be 1332, as I posted previously, and as you said yourself. If it proves to be inconsistent in killing, and if the distance loss on Flying Fox is a serious enough concern, then the All Purpose Firefox set goes in instead.

 

[elmike]

i just played versus a Link which has my play level, and i know i couldnt have beated him with the amplifying reflector (because the starting lag is too much). But the default reflector was a blessing. Fast and powerful enough. Also, the big reflector is garbage for that matter hehe.

In that fight i learned that for a ˝proyectil war", its much better to have falcos lasers (at least versus link). So i think the "filler" is as important as the other "projectile war" sets.

And again, today i died with flying fox, where i could have survived with firefox. I'm almost sure that the range of flying fox is the same as twisting fox (or at least i dont notice a difference in training).
Personally, i will be sticking to firefox unless someone can prove that is indeed a better option. That extra range is more important that it seems (at least for me), and because i have yet to see someone capitalize on the speed of firefox for recovery.

So, for me the "filler" should be
2111 (instead of 2121) (an for me this set its more important than the 2 "proyectile war" sets...)

 

[EndlessRain]

@ elmike Falco's projectile set with FireFox seems good. The lower range of FlyingFox is a problem for you, but you've never been killed while charging FireFox, and I get killed way too often while charging but the reduced range has never affected me lol.

What makes Falco's so much better against Link? Just the fact that you can hitstun him out of moves?

 

[elmike]

@ elmike The lower range of FlyingFox is a problem for you, but you've never been killed while charging FireFox, and I get killed way too often while charging but the reduced range has never affected me lol.

lol


About Falco's ... not only the hitstun, but its a good way to nullify his projectiles, specially the bow. Given the speed link can spam with tornado->bow, falco's lasers are probably the safest way to approach. Although that way it can become a very long (and boring) battle...

 

[EndlessRain]

Makes sense, thanks for explaining!

 

[Comorant]

I second the 2111 set as filler. Flying Fox is fantastic with no doubt, and you can still reach the ledge from the bottom of the screen no problem, but there are certain tricky angles you miss out on that can mean the difference between life and death. Plus there are plenty of characters who can't donk you consistently enough for the charge to matter.

 

[SAHunterMech]

3233.

For me, charge blaster is now a way of life. Learning to snipe with it is an annoyingly good keepaway game, and it allows fox to pressure at a distance like never before. Meanwhile, I use Fox Burst primarily for recovery; being able to blow up the area around the ledge really helps, lol. Twisting Fox is just better for damage/killing, and going air-to-ground is hilarious mixup. Finally, since Shining is just absolutely pathetic now, Amplifying Reflector steps up to the plate with some serious power.

 

[EndlessRain]

How do you deal with the lag on Amplifying Reflector? And what makes the so-so damage, low-knockback explosion around the ledge worth losing startup speed and reach with Fox Burst? Why do you consider these moves good, while most others agree that they are almost worthless? Have you got some insight into a new way of using them?

 

[SAHunterMech]

Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert, but I've definitely learned to give every custom a chance, no matter how crappy they might seem, and choose what you like/can use best.

First off, the lag on Amplifying Reflector is negligible. I'd have to be shot at point blank for them to have a chance of getting that shot to hit. What makes the move so amazing is that it reflects projectiles back at double power AND double speed. It's especially helpful in the wake of default-b shining/air stalling being so amazingly bad now.

Second, Fox Burst can come in handy for keeping people offstage if you predict accurately with it. I wouldn't consider the knockback terrible, as I've picked up kills with it on several occasions, all because I've predicted rolls and spotdodges. The biggest thing is that Fox won't go over the ledge from the ground unless you're more or less standing on the ledge itself, so you can Burst from several positions for ledgeguarding mindgames.

I also would consider the lesser horizontal distance more of an advantage for recovery, just because the closer you get to the stage with side-b, the more likely you are to get hit, and when you use side-b in tandem with up-b, you can usually make it back anyway. I really look at Burst being something to Illusion's nothing, harsh as that may sound.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm worried we got Fox substantially wrong. We've toyed with him a lot locally, and I'm pretty convinced Twisting Fox is just correct. It's not only the recovery option with the most distance which often matters more than the speed of Flying Fox (not that Flying Fox is bad), but it's legitimately a VERY good attack. You just kinda jump at them in ambiguous situations and start it up point blank so you catch with the charging portion, and it's often easy to steer them way up there and kill off the top at "way too early" percents. The more we played with Fox, the more uses we found for Twisting Fox and the more carefully I had to play against Fox to respect the threat represented by Twisting Fox and the harder it was to imagine picking the other two up specials. Charge Blaster is also really good to the point I'd be a little iffy about taking the other two (it hits for real damage/KB and forces the other side to respect it which the other two really don't), and we were pretty unconvinced any of his down specials were actually good moves with 2 being best if they don't use projectiles and 1 being the best if they do and side special is almost purely recovery and seems mostly preference between 1 and 3 with both having their own merits.

What I'm trying to say is that, from what I've seen out of Fox, it seems like his best sets are 3131, 3132, 3331, and 3332 with me being likely to breathe a sigh of relief if I ever saw an opposing Fox pick a set that wasn't one of those four. The differences between down-B 1 and 2 are mostly trivial since down-B is a bad move on Fox regardless, but 313X and 333X seem like they should definitely be represented which means that something should go for a 313X set. Thoughts?

 

[luke_atyeo]

I can definitely agree with (and use) 2111
from what I've seen, that might be the set megafox was using during 3ds tourneys, I could be wrong about that though.

pretty much the same reasons as above, the 2 laser is good and the default options are pretty good too.

 

[EndlessRain]

Yeah, I get what you're saying AA. I got my WiiU at Christmas, so I've been playing a ton of matches with fellow smashers who don't own 3DSes. Twisting Fox is good. I would say it's around even with Flying Fox. I've stated before why I use Flying Fox over it, but I love the move. It's good for kills, definitely, and the distance can help, but I find that it just gets shielded when I throw it out as an attack. Just shield until it's gone past, then I get punished.
Everything I say in this thread is purely based on my own play. The whole thing about me needing the quick startup on Flying Fox is a result of several people I play with regularly being heavily edgeguard-focused in their play.
I have been thinking about it though, and in my recent batch of matches I have found that the projectile war sets aren't really up to scratch. Mostly because of the Blaster of choice: 1 kinda sucks. It seemed good at first but the better cancellation of 2 beats it. It's better for damage, but that's it. 3 is too slow for use in this kind of match, as with all the ranged attacks flying around you're gonna get hit with something while you're charging. So I propose that the revised setup be something along the lines of:

Spoiler

2122
2322
3322

2121
3331
1331

I was planning on putting up a huge post about my findings from the WiiU matches with the bigger player pool, but I wanted to reply to you quickly. I'll try get it up in a couple days; I'll go into more detail on these sets there.

And yeah, Luke, that is the Megafox set. It's pretty good, except for default recovery, which is a bit of an awkward middle ground between the speed of FlyingFox and the power of the Barrel Roll.

 

[Protom]

I'm worried we got Fox substantially wrong. We've toyed with him a lot locally, and I'm pretty convinced Twisting Fox is just correct. It's not only the recovery option with the most distance which often matters more than the speed of Flying Fox (not that Flying Fox is bad), but it's legitimately a VERY good attack. You just kinda jump at them in ambiguous situations and start it up point blank so you catch with the charging portion, and it's often easy to steer them way up there and kill off the top at "way too early" percents. The more we played with Fox, the more uses we found for Twisting Fox and the more carefully I had to play against Fox to respect the threat represented by Twisting Fox and the harder it was to imagine picking the other two up specials. Charge Blaster is also really good to the point I'd be a little iffy about taking the other two (it hits for real damage/KB and forces the other side to respect it which the other two really don't), and we were pretty unconvinced any of his down specials were actually good moves with 2 being best if they don't use projectiles and 1 being the best if they do and side special is almost purely recovery and seems mostly preference between 1 and 3 with both having their own merits.

What I'm trying to say is that, from what I've seen out of Fox, it seems like his best sets are 3131, 3132, 3331, and 3332 with me being likely to breathe a sigh of relief if I ever saw an opposing Fox pick a set that wasn't one of those four. The differences between down-B 1 and 2 are mostly trivial since down-B is a bad move on Fox regardless, but 313X and 333X seem like they should definitely be represented which means that something should go for a 313X set. Thoughts?

Thank you, someone who agrees with me that twisting fox deserves an extra set of some kind. It just has so many uses. Out of shield, angled off ground, edge guarding, etc.
charge blaster I also agree is good, and the 333X set should stay. However, against characters like ness and mario I find the charge blaster to be inaffective, due to it having so much start up and time given to the opponent to react. A 133X (set I always run) or 233X should probably be added.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I should clarify that Twisting Fox as an attack I've seen work not in neutral where shielding it is so easy but in more ambiguous situations, often when both characters are in the air. Here's a situation I've seen a few times. Fox lands some hit and the opponent is popped into the air. As the defender you brace yourself to airdodge through that uair. Nope, Fox instead jumped down and did Twisting Fox a bit low. The ending of your airdodge gets caught and Fox just aims straight up killing you off the top at some disgustingly low percentage, and respecting this option probably means air controlling hard left-right and/or airdodging late which of course opens the door for Fox to respond in other ways. I'm pretty sure in some situations Fox can even combo into Twisting Fox (it's not that slow if you hit with the very first hits before it starts moving), and Twisting Fox hits way harder than anything else Fox could possibly combo into.

Yeah, I can definitely see the value of Flying Fox against aggressive edge-guarding; it is a good move and deserves sets. I just think the offensive potential of Twisting Fox is being slept on; it's not really legit at all as shield pressure but is pretty good otherwise. I mostly agree with your six sets as good ones but would rather like to drop one of the 212X sets (since honestly I don't think down-1 vs down-2 is a very important difference) for a 313X set which I think has a lot of promise (side-1 vs side-3 seems to me to be purely preference and to have little connection to the choices on other slots... though 313X is the set with the most overall recovery potential which is a really nice point for it). If I'm the only one who thinks that, seeing as I don't main Fox, I'll defer to the group, but I felt it important to get this out there.

 

[Protom]

My Proposal for Fox's revised standardized custom sets:
Fox

*212X
*232X
*332X
133X
*132X
233X or 333X

*Signifies a set that is not changed from the initial release
**For the down B (reflectors) I don't have much experience outside of standard reflector. Either I'll look more into it later or have someone with more practical knowledge regarding reflectors determine it. (Maybe @ EndlessRain ? Can you explain to me the uses of Big Reflector?)

Not many changes were made outside of 133X replacing 1121. As @ Amazing Ampharos said above, Twisting Fox is a good attack in its own way. It should almost always go with side 3 (Fox Flash) to make up for its slightly lower recovery. It deserves at least 2 sets, depending on the lasers used. A default lasers set seems important due to its high speed and being generally more useful against characters that can reflect/pocket/absorb projectiles (I have a lot of experience fighting Ness and Villager.) Falco and Charged blasters firing speeds are 2slow, especially charged blasters startup. It allows for the opponent to prepare to reflect/pocket/absorb them more easily, while with default blaster by the time they whip out their reflector/pocket/absorber, you already got some damage on them. Plus, for reflectors and absorbers, nabbing only 2-3 lasers in the end is usually not worth going into an animation that forces u to stand still 'helplessly'. That being said, falco lasers are useful against characters like link and samus I find, who you engage in projectile wars (Usually for these default reflector is also the best choice I guess). Charge blaster, while being the one I use the least, has somewhat a following and potential in the hands of a skilled sniper. Which one deserves a set more I'm not sure. Possibly, if both prove popular they could both get a set (replacing 2122?)

That's my proposal. I myself might have some bias going for 133X due to it being the set I've been running on fox ever since like mid October, and have succeeded a lot with it. However I do feel it is really underrated, and am glad that it has started to come to peoples attention. Plz people give me advice on reflectors and 233x vs 333X..

 

[EndlessRain]

Alrighty. Big, long-ass post incoming. Brace yourselves.
Neutral special:

Spoiler

Default: You know Villager? Use this against him, it gets you a little damage, there's no point in him catching it, at range he finds it hard to punish anyway. Free damage woot.
I have still yet to find another matchup in which it outdoes B2, however. Versus Ness, B3 is better because they tend to go for the absorb every time. Even if it leaves them wide open (which is usually, with the speed Fox moves at). Reflectors... well, it still doesn't move all that fast, so you can just hop over it or shield or just stand still and let it fizzle or re-reflect it (lol). You can follow up dthrow with it for some more damage even if they're sent too far for your regular follow ups, I guess. Not really worth a set, but a bring-your-own might (might) be worth bringing for the slight use vs. Killager.

B2 is still my favourite. Hitstun, acceptable damage, shot cancellation... I wish it had more range but it still has enough to work. You can still follow the throws but you get like 1% less out of it. Whatever, I'm a Falco player at heart and I adore this move. Keep it in sets.

B3 has grown on me. A lot. I still haven't found any cool ways to actually get it to hit, but the threat of it hitting is enough. Edgeguarding fun, and tossing it out against characters like Luigi (unsafe approaches) as they try to approach from the neutral gets them into the air just as well as hitting them with it. Just don't use it too close... Anyways, I've come around on this a bit. I think it definitely deserves a set or two.

Side Special:

Spoiler

Default: This is a recovery move, really. If you are able to hit with it, you get 3% for your trouble. Wonderful. It has okay knockback, but not enough to kill (at 300%, sure, so it's decent for Sudden Death. Pity nobody plays Sudden Death, right?). The end of it can set up uair, so that is fun. But yeah, really just a fast, pretty long, horizontal recovery move. Which is enough. Keep using this in sets.

SideB2: lol

SideB3 is awkward. It's similar enough to default to make the choice between them basically a matter of preference, but different enough to make the choice significant. So you do kind of need both... It's better from bad positions (under and away from the ledge) but worse when you are closer because it doesn't grab so you can slip past/over. So you need to risk putting yourself in a bad place by using it close, or you have to put yourself in a different bad position willingly. In exchange, you get extra kill/edgeguard power and more verticality. So it's a fair trade, even with sideB1. Keep this in sets.

Up Special:

Spoiler

Default: Yeah outclassed by B2 in speed and by B3 in power. Jack of No Trades, Master of None. Just sort of eh. Not bad, but there's always better. Not worth a set imo.

UpB2: Yay I love this one. Makes you real hard to edgeguard, makes Flamedashing reliable (but who cares?). In return... It can't hit people! Who the hell cares! Seriously this is the best for recovery, and it's not like you're losing much. Move rocks, keep a set for it, moving along.

UpB3: I refuse to call this Twisting Fox, it is Barrel Roll. Just making that clear. If you want another kill move, here ya go! I can't say I've had much (any) success killing with this, but that's probably just because I'm still not sure what to do with it. My ability to read is a little lacking, I have to say, so it's probably just that; problems predicting air dodges. I have found that I can hit pretty well with it by short hopping into an opponent's short hop, then starting it up before they input their aerial. Going for a SH nair, Mr. Lombardi? Let me just stop you right there. Once the charging hitbox gets going, you can keep them trapped nicely until the last hit. It only works once or twice though, as it relies on the surprise factor of "wtf why did he jump into my jump instead of shielding or rolling or attacking or something". I want this move to be really good, but I can't seem to use it right. Not going to call this one, I'll just leave it to you guys. I think it's worth a shot at least. And it's really cool.

Down Special:

Spoiler

Default: It reflects projectiles, and you fall real slow. Hold for too long and you return to normal fall speed. It does damage, but the only thing hitting with it achieves is maybe causing your opponent to die of shock. Comes out stupid fast (frame 1?) and has irritating amount of endlag. You should know these things by now. Good against projectile users, bad otherwise. Keep in reserve for Mega Man, Samus and the like. Supplementary sets.

DownB2: Big Reflector: the Reflector but Big. How exciting. Reflected projectiles are weakened, but you get a strong windbox in exchange! You can do all sorts of funny edgeguard things with this to characters with bad recoveries. Like Mac: Shielding his UpB, then using this before he grabs the ledge is topkek. But anyone can edgeguard Mac. This lets you kill Marth, Shulk, Luigi, Mario, and Sonic. Pac Man, if you push him past his trampoline. Pit, if you get him to use his jumps first. Seriously this thing is great. It'll get you up from ledges too. Jump away from ledge, immediately shine: They are now too far away to stop you getting up. You can JC a dash into this to push people off the main platform, to set up more edgeguard opportunities. Use this in sets! It's the shiniest (geddit?) of the three turds.

DownB3: Nice in theory but too slow coming out to help you. Like, at all. Also, no stall. Not nearly worth the (attractive) speed and power boost to reflected projectiles.

Proposed sets:

Spoiler

2122 (All-purpose laser, all-purpose dash thing, most generally useful shine. Good all-around.)

2322 (If you like "Wolf Flash", you'll love "Fox, but with Wolf Flash"!)

3322 ("lol you ain't never coming back on here")

2321 (I like keeping Wolf Flash to make up for losing the edgeguard power of downB3 in the projectile set. Impact Blaster for priority against opposing shots. UpB2 because UpB3 needs building around I feel.)

1332 (Barrel Roll, let's go. I find B1 actually can be used to rack up percent, and this is the only set I would ever use it on. It likes the extra damage more than the utility of B2 or the KB of B3. SideB3 is mandatory, you don't want to rely entirely on your slooooow up special for vertical recovery. DownB2 is obvious.)

I honestly don't know what to do with the last slot. Maybe 3332. But a B1 or two can be squeezed out a lot more often than B3, and B3 is really not that useful against speedy characters (B1 does great against slow ones anyway). I think a Barrel Roll set needs to be built around Barrel Roll, and 1332 is the best way to do that. Still, 3332 goes here for now. Personal preference, and suchlike.

EDIT: Oh yeah Protom, I like 133X. 233X and 333X, not so much, just because I feel UpB3 needs all the help it can get, and B2 and (to a lesser extent because 10% per shot) B3 don't give it the help it needs. They just don't accumulate the damage like 1 does (they are better in every other way, but this set wants fast damage for early kills). Regarding reflectors: 2 is good if they have no projectiles, 3 is good if they are really predictable and/or stupid. 1 is good if they will be shooting you a lot.

 

[Protom]

Alrighty. Big, long-*** post incoming. Brace yourselves.
Neutral special:

Spoiler

Default: You know Villager? Use this against him, it gets you a little damage, there's no point in him catching it, at range he finds it hard to punish anyway. Free damage woot.
I have still yet to find another matchup in which it outdoes B2, however. Versus Ness, B3 is better because they tend to go for the absorb every time. Even if it leaves them wide open (which is usually, with the speed Fox moves at). Reflectors... well, it still doesn't move all that fast, so you can just hop over it or shield or just stand still and let it fizzle or re-reflect it (lol). You can follow up dthrow with it for some more damage even if they're sent too far for your regular follow ups, I guess. Not really worth a set, but a bring-your-own might (might) be worth bringing for the slight use vs. Killager.

B2 is still my favourite. Hitstun, acceptable damage, shot cancellation... I wish it had more range but it still has enough to work. You can still follow the throws but you get like 1% less out of it. Whatever, I'm a Falco player at heart and I adore this move. Keep it in sets.

B3 has grown on me. A lot. I still haven't found any cool ways to actually get it to hit, but the threat of it hitting is enough. Edgeguarding fun, and tossing it out against characters like Luigi (unsafe approaches) as they try to approach from the neutral gets them into the air just as well as hitting them with it. Just don't use it too close... Anyways, I've come around on this a bit. I think it definitely deserves a set or two.

Side Special:

Spoiler

Default: This is a recovery move, really. If you are able to hit with it, you get 3% for your trouble. Wonderful. It has okay knockback, but not enough to kill (at 300%, sure, so it's decent for Sudden Death. Pity nobody plays Sudden Death, right?). The end of it can set up uair, so that is fun. But yeah, really just a fast, pretty long, horizontal recovery move. Which is enough. Keep using this in sets.

SideB2: lol

SideB3 is awkward. It's similar enough to default to make the choice between them basically a matter of preference, but different enough to make the choice significant. So you do kind of need both... It's better from bad positions (under and away from the ledge) but worse when you are closer because it doesn't grab so you can slip past/over. So you need to risk putting yourself in a bad place by using it close, or you have to put yourself in a different bad position willingly. In exchange, you get extra kill/edgeguard power and more verticality. So it's a fair trade, even with sideB1. Keep this in sets.

Up Special:

Spoiler

Default: Yeah outclassed by B2 in speed and by B3 in power. Jack of No Trades, Master of None. Just sort of eh. Not bad, but there's always better. Not worth a set imo.

UpB2: Yay I love this one. Makes you real hard to edgeguard, makes Flamedashing reliable (but who cares?). In return... It can't hit people! Who the hell cares! Seriously this is the best for recovery, and it's not like you're losing much. Move rocks, keep a set for it, moving along.

UpB3: I refuse to call this Twisting Fox, it is Barrel Roll. Just making that clear. If you want another kill move, here ya go! I can't say I've had much (any) success killing with this, but that's probably just because I'm still not sure what to do with it. My ability to read is a little lacking, I have to say, so it's probably just that; problems predicting air dodges. I have found that I can hit pretty well with it by short hopping into an opponent's short hop, then starting it up before they input their aerial. Going for a SH nair, Mr. Lombardi? Let me just stop you right there. Once the charging hitbox gets going, you can keep them trapped nicely until the last hit. It only works once or twice though, as it relies on the surprise factor of "wtf why did he jump into my jump instead of shielding or rolling or attacking or something". I want this move to be really good, but I can't seem to use it right. Not going to call this one, I'll just leave it to you guys. I think it's worth a shot at least. And it's really cool.

Down Special:

Spoiler

Default: It reflects projectiles, and you fall real slow. Hold for too long and you return to normal fall speed. It does damage, but the only thing hitting with it achieves is maybe causing your opponent to die of shock. Comes out stupid fast (frame 1?) and has irritating amount of endlag. You should know these things by now. Good against projectile users, bad otherwise. Keep in reserve for Mega Man, Samus and the like. Supplementary sets.

DownB2: Big Reflector: the Reflector but Big. How exciting. Reflected projectiles are weakened, but you get a strong windbox in exchange! You can do all sorts of funny edgeguard things with this to characters with bad recoveries. Like Mac: Shielding his UpB, then using this before he grabs the ledge is topkek. But anyone can edgeguard Mac. This lets you kill Marth, Shulk, Luigi, Mario, and Sonic. Pac Man, if you push him past his trampoline. Pit, if you get him to use his jumps first. Seriously this thing is great. It'll get you up from ledges too. Jump away from ledge, immediately shine: They are now too far away to stop you getting up. You can JC a dash into this to push people off the main platform, to set up more edgeguard opportunities. Use this in sets! It's the shiniest (geddit?) of the three turds.

DownB3: Nice in theory but too slow coming out to help you. Like, at all. Also, no stall. Not nearly worth the (attractive) speed and power boost to reflected projectiles.

Proposed sets:

Spoiler

2122 (All-purpose laser, all-purpose dash thing, most generally useful shine. Good all-around.)

2322 (If you like "Wolf Flash", you'll love "Fox, but with Wolf Flash"!)

3322 ("lol you ain't never coming back on here")

2321 (I like keeping Wolf Flash to make up for losing the edgeguard power of downB3 in the projectile set. Impact Blaster for priority against opposing shots. UpB2 because UpB3 needs building around I feel.)

1332 (Barrel Roll, let's go. I find B1 actually can be used to rack up percent, and this is the only set I would ever use it on. It likes the extra damage more than the utility of B2 or the KB of B3. SideB3 is mandatory, you don't want to rely entirely on your slooooow up special for vertical recovery. DownB2 is obvious.)

I honestly don't know what to do with the last slot. Maybe 3332. But a B1 or two can be squeezed out a lot more often than B3, and B3 is really not that useful against speedy characters (B1 does great against slow ones anyway). I think a Barrel Roll set needs to be built around Barrel Roll, and 1332 is the best way to do that. Still, 3332 goes here for now. Personal preference, and suchlike.

EDIT: Oh yeah Protom, I like 133X. 233X and 333X, not so much, just because I feel UpB3 needs all the help it can get, and B2 and (to a lesser extent because 10% per shot) B3 don't give it the help it needs. They just don't accumulate the damage like 1 does (they are better in every other way, but this set wants fast damage for early kills). Regarding reflectors: 2 is good if they have no projectiles, 3 is good if they are really predictable and/or stupid. 1 is good if they will be shooting you a lot.

Thanks for the info. I see now the uses for different reflctors.
For the last set, maybe 3321? I could see it working against a slow character with a slow projectile. (Like maybe, um.. Dark Pit? Now that I think about it idk). Maybe keeping 1121 or making a 1122?

 

[SAHunterMech]

I'm admitting defeat here by saying that down-b 3 is not nearly as powerful as it should be for the increased risk. Gimping with down-b 2 is much more fun anyway.

Same goes for side-b 2; too weak. Just too weak. It's only really good for killing people when they're right next to the horizontal blastline.

But I still stand by charge shot and twisting fox; all the way. My new kit is 3332, and with wolf flash and big reflector, I think Fox is that much better.

 

[EndlessRain]

@ Amazing Ampharos and @ SAHunterMech
What advantages do you think B3 has over the other two blaster options on the Barrel Roll set? I like the move, but it seems a touch suboptimal on that particular set, since the long windup makes it hard to get it to actually hit. I find it more useful as a deterrent, can you tell me how you hit with it/how Foxes you've played against have used it against you?

 

[SAHunterMech]

I mostly use it to interfere with the opponent's recovery; other than that, on the ground it's mostly punish. I just feel that the 10% you get get from one shot has more worth than the 10% you get from spamming B1 or 2, although I do think B2 is equally good as B3.