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[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

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Pieman0920

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I'll dis the Forest and Nature track all I want. It had no place being on Halberd, and it wasn't very good in the first place. The very least that could have been done with it would be to just set it to Green Greens intead, but whatever.

While Metal Man, Snake Man, and Cut Man are all very good, I can't really put them in on their own because so many of the other Robot Master themes were good. Some of the games that came later don't have the same consistancy, and that's why one exceptional one can be placed out on its own, but for those first three games, I think medleys are what is needed.

In any case, for a MM5 song, I'm thinking Napalm Man may be better than Gravity Man. =/

Having a window outside for the Wily Castle stage would be fine I suppose. Its sort of hard to think of what exactly would be inside of it, since there is so much to work with. Personally I'd like the Guts Tank from MM2 to show up on the side of the stage, sort of like the Bulborb does in Distant Planet.
 

Starphoenix

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I'll dis the Forest and Nature track all I want. It had no place being on Halberd, and it wasn't very good in the first place. The very least that could have been done with it would be to just set it to Green Greens intead, but whatever.

While Metal Man, Snake Man, and Cut Man are all very good, I can't really put them in on their own because so many of the other Robot Master themes were good. Some of the games that came later don't have the same consistancy, and that's why one exceptional one can be placed out on its own, but for those first three games, I think medleys are what is needed.

In any case, for a MM5 song, I'm thinking Napalm Man may be better than Gravity Man. =/

Having a window outside for the Wily Castle stage would be fine I suppose. Its sort of hard to think of what exactly would be inside of it, since there is so much to work with. Personally I'd like the Guts Tank from MM2 to show up on the side of the stage, sort of like the Bulborb does in Distant Planet.
Maybe not good to you, but I love that darn song! I agree it would have been better suited on Green Greens. Though I am curious why Sakurai and his team never put any non-Melee songs on the Melee stages? Oh well.

That is part of the problem with Megaman's music, it is so vast and so much is brilliant that people will be unhappy regardless of what Capcom and Nintendo choose. I am confident they would end up taking one Robot Master theme from each every game, throwing in the infamous Dr. Wily MM2 theme as well as some medleys (such as a Dr. Wily medley). Truly the whole list of music would have to be nothing but medleys if they desperately wanted to please everyone, but any future development team isn't going to want to create 7-10 remixes when they can just choose one and cut their losses. Megaman 2, 3, and 9 I could see getting medleys; while games like 6, 7, 8 they can just pick one. Napalmman is better than Gravityman, but somehow the CW version just seems to fit the stage design in my head very well.

As far as why type of design there would be internally in the background of the stage. I am thinking generally we will have our general labratory type motif. Wires, monitors, electricty, etc... I envision Metools walking around in the background, maybe stopping at times to stare at the players and hide away in their helmets. A nice feature would be capsules in the backgroud with very faint outlines of various Robot Masters similarly to Megaman 7's Robot Master Museum. A giant window as I described earlier with rain and lightning. Some conveyor belt platforms that will seldomly activate. Maybe Dr. Wily's flying UFO machine can be seen hung up near the ceiling with some stairs to the side. Or another idea is you can see Wily piloting the machine outside via the window on occasions.

These are just a few ideas of mine, but one thing that is essential are the presence of Metools.
 

Pieman0920

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Wrong Mowrt. Kojima asked for Snake to be in Melee when Melee was already too far along in production. In addition, if MM was supposed to be in before hand, then he would have been in there instead of Sonic who was added in last.
 

SmashChu

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Not much going on, so I'll mention an observation.

With all the series in Smash Bros, excluding the third parties, they all come from Nintendo's first and second party developers. This is opposed to games owned by Nintendo, but made by companies (like Golden Sun with Camelot). Now, it may or may not be intentional. In some ways, the series made by Nintendo are some of the best around and are really gems. It may also be because the character all come from similar closely netted development teams, so it kind of retains it's magic. Or, it could be easier to get rights from all of those teams.

Anyway, if this happens in 4, then these may be likely candidates

Little Mac
Mii
Toad
Dixie Kong
King K. Rool
Ridley
Krystal
Samurai Goroh
Lyn
Mona (or some other Warioware character)

Also, there might be a new Pokemon or Zelda character. There could be a character from Xenoblade as well. Lastly, if Kid Icarus gets a new game with a substantial character, expect it in SSB4.

Thoughts?
 

Gallowglass

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Not much going on, so I'll mention an observation.

With all the series in Smash Bros, excluding the third parties, they all come from Nintendo's first and second party developers. This is opposed to games owned by Nintendo, but made by companies (like Golden Sun with Camelot). Now, it may or may not be intentional. In some ways, the series made by Nintendo are some of the best around and are really gems. It may also be because the character all come from similar closely netted development teams, so it kind of retains it's magic. Or, it could be easier to get rights from all of those teams.

Anyway, if this happens in 4, then these may be likely candidates

Little Mac
Mii
Toad
Dixie Kong
King K. Rool
Ridley
Krystal
Samurai Goroh
Lyn
Mona (or some other Warioware character)

Also, there might be a new Pokemon or Zelda character. There could be a character from Xenoblade as well. Lastly, if Kid Icarus gets a new game with a substantial character, expect it in SSB4.

Thoughts?
Though some games are made by second party developers the characters themselves are owned by Nintendo. That's why you have games with same characters but different feel. The Metroid Prime Series was made by Retro Studios but Other M will be made by Team Ninja. Two different developers but Samus none the less. Smash itself is made by a second party developer.

Anyways I really like the character list Little Mac, Krystal, Toad and Samurai Goroh are top of my list.
 

rockem7

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Anyway, if this happens in 4, then these may be likely candidates

Little Mac
Mii
Toad
Dixie Kong
King K. Rool
Ridley
Krystal
Samurai Goroh
Lyn
Mona (or some other Warioware character)

Also, there might be a new Pokemon or Zelda character. There could be a character from Xenoblade as well. Lastly, if Kid Icarus gets a new game with a substantial character, expect it in SSB4.

Thoughts?
Little Mac will probably get in, but his chances will be even better if they make another Punch Out game before the time SSB4 comes out. I personally would love to see Miis in the game, but the level of customization (Movesets, sizes, maybe costumes?) might make it a little bit harder to get the full Mii experience into the game. If Toad makes it in, they'd have to replace Peach's standard B with Toadsworth, wouldn't they? Or maybe they could work together. I think Dixie Kong will most likely be teamed up with Diddy, like IC's. King K. Rool is likely to get in, but his getting in makes Dixie's chances a little slimmer, imo. I'm not going to talk about Ridley, but I want him to get in. If they add Krystal, I hope that she isn't significantly similar to Fox/Falco (NOT clones, just really similar). Samurai Goroh is likely to be the next F-Zero rep, and I'd personally like to see another F-Zero game released. I don't think Lyn is likely to make it in, rather a new FE lord, or if they remake Roy's game, maybe he'll make it back in. And I agree with a Warioware Character, and I think it should be Kat and Ana, but that's just personal preference.

As for Pokemon, it is likely that they'll replace Lucario with Zoroark, or some other new 5th gen Poke. And I'm not too into Zelda (Sad I know), but it's likely that they'll get a new character.

On a different note...Who do you guys think will get substantial moveset changes in SSB4? Like how Mario got FLUDD and his DownB changed to Dair.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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I really am kicking myself for not including Begning. I guess there were probably some other things I could have looked for from Judgment, which I assume is mostly music from other parts of the series.
Judgment has a pretty good selection, but obviously you won't be able to get the best playlist from one game. You should play the older ones anyway, most of the console Classicvanias are on the VC.


When I say something doesn't fit, its not quite the same as "not good to fight to" but rather just doesn't fit the tone of the stage. A stage based around a robot factor or Dr. Wily's Castle doesn't really match up to well with a very relaxed song like that, though I have no objection to having a relaxed song to speak of.

In addition, a good deal of the songs that don't quite fit in Brawl are generally ones that fit in other places of the game, most notably SSE. Frozen Hillside was used for that ice mountain in SSE, and I assume the team just decided to throw it into Halberd as well because it was already there. Of course there are a few that still stick out though, such as Forest & Nature area, which was not used in the SSE, and to my knowledge isn't a track that anyone actually likes. How that got in is beyond me. Whatever the case though, just because there were miss matched themes in Brawl, doesn't mean the trend should continue. Proto Man's theme is a great, and that's why I put it in there, but I just don't see how it would really mesh up to a more chaotic stage.
That assumes the stage itself is chaotic to begin with (and that depends on whether it's Lylat Cruise chaotic or Mario Bros. chaotic). Even if it is, there's nothing wrong with a little musical dissonance, especially if it's for something as iconic as Protoman's theme.

Also I like the Forest Theme, nuts to you.



With all the series in Smash Bros, excluding the third parties, they all come from Nintendo's first and second party developers. This is opposed to games owned by Nintendo, but made by companies (like Golden Sun with Camelot). Now, it may or may not be intentional. In some ways, the series made by Nintendo are some of the best around and are really gems. It may also be because the character all come from similar closely netted development teams, so it kind of retains it's magic. Or, it could be easier to get rights from all of those teams.
For the record, Golden Sun is no different than Kirby, Pokemon, and Mother. And while there might be problems with an individual team (like how the Pokemon Company is supposedly anal over the designs), it shouldn't be any more difficult to settle everything with them than it would for an in-house team.

Pretty sure you know where I stand on all the characters on your list already.
 

BG3

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@rockem7: I was pretty surprised to see Mario's moveset change. But I think more characters this time around may get the same treatment.

Luigi's green missile(this move IMO never really fit Luigi) could get replaced by his vaccuum from Luigi's Mansion. But with that inclusion, they should make his recovery like it was in SSB64.

Any of the Pokemon characters could get a moveset change instantly. Since there are so many different moves in Pokemon. Like for example, we could see them to replace Jigglypuff's sing with some other move. (Although a little unlikely).

I sincerely hope Sakurai opens up his eyes in SSB4, and gives Ganondorf an ACTUAL LoZ moveset. Ganondorf is in dire need among all the characters to get a moveset overhaul, and honestly, I really wouldn't think a large majority of the fans wouldn't mind, just because his old moveset did not fit his character at all.

Other characters also have the potential to have their moveset changed, such as Bowser, FE characters, Mother characters, and probably even more.
 

Gallowglass

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Little Mac will probably get in, but his chances will be even better if they make another Punch Out game before the time SSB4 comes out. I personally would love to see Miis in the game, but the level of customization (Movesets, sizes, maybe costumes?) might make it a little bit harder to get the full Mii experience into the game. If Toad makes it in, they'd have to replace Peach's standard B with Toadsworth, wouldn't they? Or maybe they could work together. I think Dixie Kong will most likely be teamed up with Diddy, like IC's. King K. Rool is likely to get in, but his getting in makes Dixie's chances a little slimmer, imo. I'm not going to talk about Ridley, but I want him to get in. If they add Krystal, I hope that she isn't significantly similar to Fox/Falco (NOT clones, just really similar). Samurai Goroh is likely to be the next F-Zero rep, and I'd personally like to see another F-Zero game released. I don't think Lyn is likely to make it in, rather a new FE lord, or if they remake Roy's game, maybe he'll make it back in. And I agree with a Warioware Character, and I think it should be Kat and Ana, but that's just personal preference.

As for Pokemon, it is likely that they'll replace Lucario with Zoroark, or some other new 5th gen Poke. And I'm not too into Zelda (Sad I know), but it's likely that they'll get a new character.

On a different note...Who do you guys think will get substantial moveset changes in SSB4? Like how Mario got FLUDD and his DownB changed to Dair.
Little Mac doesn't need a new game. He has 3 games and one remake which is more then others in Smash. I don't know how the Mii would work unless they use form Wii Sport Resort but they would be better as an assist trophy (doo random things like running out in kendo gear, or make it rain basketballs). I don't like the partner idea of Diddy and Dixie, and I would rather see them different. With Peach's Toad they wouldn't have to change anything. I mean their tons of toads and they all look similar (Except Mario 2 and Wii). They might have to change Peach's down B because Toad was a lot better at it. And Krystal would be a really unique character if she uses her staff.

As for the different moveset I do believe they should do away with Mario's FLUDD which not many liked with the new games he should have some other new moves. I would also like to see Yoshi have a little more reach in his tounge like he did in 64 and Melee. Also have Link's Spin attack as powerful as it was in Melee and his arrows do some knock back. I like Ganondorf's moveset but they needed to revamp it like they did in balanced brawl. He wasn't even a character in SSB.
 

rockem7

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Little Mac doesn't need a new game. He has 3 games and one remake which is more then others in Smash. I don't know how the Mii would work unless they use form Wii Sport Resort but they would be better as an assist trophy (doo random things like running out in kendo gear, or make it rain basketballs). I don't like the partner idea of Diddy and Dixie, and I would rather see them different. With Peach's Toad they wouldn't have to change anything. I mean their tons of toads and they all look similar (Except Mario 2 and Wii). They might have to change Peach's down B because Toad was a lot better at it. And Krystal would be a really unique character if she uses her staff.

As for the different moveset I do believe they should do away with Mario's FLUDD which not many liked with the new games he should have some other new moves. I would also like to see Yoshi have a little more reach in his tounge like he did in 64 and Melee. Also have Link's Spin attack as powerful as it was in Melee and his arrows do some knock back. I like Ganondorf's moveset but they needed to revamp it like they did in balanced brawl. He wasn't even a character in SSB.
The Mii has amazing potential as a character, but it would take a lot of time to make it work. They could get rid of some less important things and implement a customization system in which you could create your Mii's abilities. On the Mii creation screen, you can choose it's height/weight, right? Well it could range from Bowser (Tall and bulky) to something a little bigger than Pikachu (Short and quick). And yeah, I guess you wouldn't have to change anything for Toad, it just seemed like an idea to me. As a Mario main, I personally like Mario's FLUDD, and it opened up a lot of oppurtunities for him as a character. I agree with the Yoshi thing, and I think Link's arrows do need to be a bit stronger. Ganon could be redone in a number of ways, but I don't really have an opinion on how it should be done. He could use his sword and have Ike's SideB, for all I care.
 

Pieman0920

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Punch Out!! for the Wii isn't a remake. Its a new game. It brings back several old characters, but so does Street Fighter 4, and Smash Bros Melee/Brawl, and you wouldn't call those remakes.

Anyways, the Mii would simply have a set body and moveset, with the head being interchangable. When you make a name for yourself, and select the button configuration, you could have a option to import your Mii's face over, so that when you select the Mii, it would have the face that you would want it to have. If there is no selected face, it will just use some pre-generated defaults or simply go into the system and take the first couple you've made. Color changes would only effect the shirt of the Mii, and possibly tint the characters's color if neccesary.

@Toise

I think its very safe to assume that a Wily's Castle stage would be chaotic....its Wily's Castle after all.

And quite frankly, PM's theme isn't that iconic. His whistle is really.
 

Gallowglass

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Punch Out!! for the Wii isn't a remake. Its a new game. It brings back several old characters, but so does Street Fighter 4, and Smash Bros Melee/Brawl, and you wouldn't call those remakes.
Punch Out!! for the Wii is a remake from the NES version. They do change a lot from the original but the basic storyline is the same and then they extended it. Super Punch Out and Arcade Punch Out are New games. So it's part way a new game after he becomes champion. They even made Sandman 2 look like Mike Tyson and gave him similar movesets.

Also for Boss battles I think if Mac gets in they should have Bald Bull or Sandman as a boss. I would think Bald Bull because he's shown up in more games then any punch out character (e.g. Warioware Smooth Moves). That bull charge could be an instant KO but if you strike him at the right time you will win.
 

augustoflores

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help me out on this one.

SSB4 Moveset - Little Mac
B - sonic punch... chargable version of assist trophy move
Up B - Punch Driver... similar but 2x quicker than wolf's up b
Foreward B - ???
Down B - Counter?
FS - ???

thoughts? concerns?
 

Pieman0920

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Punch Out!! for the Wii is a remake from the NES version. They do change a lot from the original but the basic storyline is the same and then they extended it. Super Punch Out and Arcade Punch Out are New games. So it's part way a new game after he becomes champion. They even made Sandman 2 look like Mike Tyson and gave him similar movesets.

Also for Boss battles I think if Mac gets in they should have Bald Bull or Sandman as a boss. I would think Bald Bull because he's shown up in more games then any punch out character (e.g. Warioware Smooth Moves). That bull charge could be an instant KO but if you strike him at the right time you will win.
Honestly dude, its not a remake. Under those grounds, Super Mario Bros 1 and 3 are the same game because they share the same basic story line. Doesn't matter if things are extended and there is new content, its the same thing. And it doesn't matter if they made Sandman look like Mike Tyson, since its not only still not Mike Tyson.

And none of the PO characters are really suited to be bosses, because they aren't really big enough. Now what do I mean by that? If the same style of boss fights happens in SSB4 as it did in Brawl, then the bosses that are needed have to large enough to justify not being knocked around by attacks like everyone else is. Bald Bull and Sandman are larger than Mac for sure, but they are still human, and shouldn't be realistically that much bigger than say Bowser. Thus if you attack them, they should be knocked back, and the fight should play out like a traditional Smash Bros fight. (In which case, it may just be better to make them actually playable, but we know that won't happen)

Thus in conclusion, maaaybe King Hippo, but not really.

@August

My thoughts and concerns would be that you can't even fill out the moveset, and thus shouldn't really attempt to in the first place. Quite frankly though, have you even played the new PO Wii? His Final Smash is pretty much a given as Giga Mac.
 

BlackLightning90

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The Mii has amazing potential as a character, but it would take a lot of time to make it work. They could get rid of some less important things and implement a customization system in which you could create your Mii's abilities. On the Mii creation screen, you can choose it's height/weight, right? Well it could range from Bowser (Tall and bulky) to something a little bigger than Pikachu (Short and quick).
Also, you could customize the Mii's textures. That way, you make your Mii however you want it to look like.
 

ElPanandero

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@rockem7

I sincerely hope Sakurai opens up his eyes in SSB4, and gives Ganondorf an ACTUAL LoZ moveset. Ganondorf is in dire need among all the characters to get a moveset overhaul, and honestly, I really wouldn't think a large majority of the fans wouldn't mind, just because his old moveset did not fit his character at all.

(Sigh)

Ganondorf's moveset does not need a change. The moveset he has now embodies all of the traits of Ganon's appearances over the years. He never wielded a weapon in preference over any other (though the trident may have a slightly higher amount of appearances) while his magic has been a trait present in every one of his appearances (BTW he is an evil WIZARD). He is also a ruthless sinister killed, shown in his destructively powerful moves. I feel Ganon's moveset perfectly represents his roles more so than giving him a sword would (he has used a sword in 2 or three games IRC).

If he was a higher ranked character in the tiers noone would give two hoots about what his moveset is, it's because he's poorly used that people think he needs a rehaul.
 

BG3

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(Sigh)

Ganondorf's moveset does not need a change. The moveset he has now embodies all of the traits of Ganon's appearances over the years. He never wielded a weapon in preference over any other (though the trident may have a slightly higher amount of appearances) while his magic has been a trait present in every one of his appearances (BTW he is an evil WIZARD). He is also a ruthless sinister killed, shown in his destructively powerful moves. I feel Ganon's moveset perfectly represents his roles more so than giving him a sword would (he has used a sword in 2 or three games IRC).

If he was a higher ranked character in the tiers noone would give two hoots about what his moveset is, it's because he's poorly used that people think he needs a rehaul.
People actually do care what movesets certain characters use. How would you like it if Snake in Brawl was using a baseball bat? Even though he ended up being top tier, his moveset just wouldn't fit him at all, and many people would dislike that, such is the case with Ganondorf. Cloning Captain Falcon doesn't do any justice for Ganondorf. He deserves a moveset overhaul, and I'm pretty sure Sakurai wanted to give him that all along, but he was just rushed for both games, so they couldn't do too much with him. If they had about as much time with Ganondorf as they did with someone like Link, I could pretty much assure you that his horrid clone moveset would be gone.
 

Spydr Enzo

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People actually do care what movesets certain characters use. How would you like it if Snake in Brawl was using a baseball bat? Even though he ended up being top tier, his moveset just wouldn't fit him at all, and many people would dislike that, such is the case with Ganondorf. Cloning Captain Falcon doesn't do any justice for Ganondorf. He deserves a moveset overhaul, and I'm pretty sure Sakurai wanted to give him that all along, but he was just rushed for both games, so they couldn't do too much with him. If they had about as much time with Ganondorf as they did with someone like Link, I could pretty much assure you that his horrid clone moveset would be gone.
While Ganondorf does need a slight moveset change, there are other characters that are higher priority when it comes to new movesets. One character is Toon Link. Seriously, he has so much potential to be a unique character, and Sakurai just had to make him a clone. This is probably because he was rushed a bit and developed later in the game, so it would be much easier to give him Link's moveset.

Still, with all of his unique moves in his games, I'm pretty sure Sakurai will focus on giving him an original moveset in SSB4. Lucas could also use a more unique move-set. If there is enough time, I'm sure Ganondorf will get some more moves/altered moves, but don't expect anything big.
 

Gallowglass

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Honestly dude, its not a remake. Under those grounds, Super Mario Bros 1 and 3 are the same game because they share the same basic story line. Doesn't matter if things are extended and there is new content, its the same thing. And it doesn't matter if they made Sandman look like Mike Tyson, since its not only still not Mike Tyson.

And none of the PO characters are really suited to be bosses, because they aren't really big enough. Now what do I mean by that? If the same style of boss fights happens in SSB4 as it did in Brawl, then the bosses that are needed have to large enough to justify not being knocked around by attacks like everyone else is. Bald Bull and Sandman are larger than Mac for sure, but they are still human, and shouldn't be realistically that much bigger than say Bowser. Thus if you attack them, they should be knocked back, and the fight should play out like a traditional Smash Bros fight. (In which case, it may just be better to make them actually playable, but we know that won't happen)

Thus in conclusion, maaaybe King Hippo, but not really.

@August

My thoughts and concerns would be that you can't even fill out the moveset, and thus shouldn't really attempt to in the first place. Quite frankly though, have you even played the new PO Wii? His Final Smash is pretty much a given as Giga Mac.
Sounds like somone is gettting a little too into this. Mario 1 and 3 had completely different storylines. Mario 3 you had the kings changed into animals and the koopa kids. In Mario one you just had Bowser after every level. If you've played the NES punch out or read the instruction booklet then you would know that it's about a 17 yr old boy name Little Mac just becomeing a pro boxer and gains ranks to become a champion. His coach Doc Louis trains him to be a champ. Doc Louis wasn't in the Arcade and I'm sure he wasn't in Super Punch Out either. Even the Punch Out Commercial made a reference to being related to the NES game. Also they couldn't use Mike because then they would have him sign another contract and trying to make this family oriented that's not a good idea.

As for Bosses if you notice in both NES and Wii Punchout the second time you fought Bald Bull he couldn't be knocked down either unless you use a star punch (or in the NES when you hit him in his bull charge). Who says they have to be big monster and not just very powerful people that don't get knock back.

On a lighter note I've already set movesets for Little Mac on both of my blogs. You can do two things. Develop new move sets smilar to PO or like they could do like his Assist Trophey and give moves from other character (Bull charge). This is what I like

Standard B: Macho man hook: Spinning hook punch that knocks them down or trips them.

Up B: Star Uppercut: which can be use as a recover

Foreward B: Bull Charge: Charges at the oppnent and knocks them straight back.

Down B: Sidestep stun: Basically a counter but instead of knocking them he stuns them.
 

Starphoenix

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Samus could be in line to see her moveset change with Other M on the way. We could be seeing a little more physical combat from her beyond just her weaponry.
 

Shorts

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Samus could be in line to see her moveset change with Other M on the way. We could be seeing a little more physical combat from her beyond just her weaponry.
Thats the one thing that always gets me when im her in brawl. Most of her physical moves are really close range oriented, but her wepons are long range, and take a lil bit to let you actually move again, and usually people get me in those few mili seconds.

I think they should make use of some of her other suits as alternate costume, like the blue fusion suit that isnt so bulky. Its my favorite suit she uses
 

BG3

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While Ganondorf does need a slight moveset change, there are other characters that are higher priority when it comes to new movesets. One character is Toon Link. Seriously, he has so much potential to be a unique character, and Sakurai just had to make him a clone. This is probably because he was rushed a bit and developed later in the game, so it would be much easier to give him Link's moveset.

Still, with all of his unique moves in his games, I'm pretty sure Sakurai will focus on giving him an original moveset in SSB4. Lucas could also use a more unique move-set. If there is enough time, I'm sure Ganondorf will get some more moves/altered moves, but don't expect anything big.
Let's hope Ganondorf gets more attention this time around. Also, to add on to your statement, I slightly agree with you. However I think Ganondorf is above everyone else on that list solely because he was in since Melee. For the development of both games, he had barely any time spent on him. It would be completely ridiculous if Ganondorf gets a sloppy clone moveset tacked onto him for the third time.
 

MasterWarlord

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Standard B: Macho man hook: Spinning hook punch that knocks them down or trips them.

Up B: Star Uppercut: which can be use as a recover

Foreward B: Bull Charge: Charges at the oppnent and knocks them straight back.

Down B: Sidestep stun: Basically a counter but instead of knocking them he stuns them.
Neutral B: Tagging Punch
Mac jabs forward with a single punch with zero start up and end lag. If it connects, this punch deals 1% with no knockback or flinching. So…if it’s a single punch that does no knockback and minimal damage, what good could it possibly do you?

Simple; because this attack is so fast, it can be used to smack the opponent before they can smack you! If Mac hits an opponent as they’re attacking (during the start up frames of the attack), their attack will be nullified, causing the opponent to flinch like one of Falco’s lasers. Yes, the priority for this move is unparalleled so long as Mac strikes during the start up of the opponent’s attack. Any later and Mac will get swatted away, too soon and Mac will simply jab them once.

When Mac successfully “counterattacks” a foe with this move, a large yellow star will appear over Mac’s head, this will come into play during the Up B recovery option, so read there for more details.

Obviously this attack can’t simply be spammed against an competent opponent; if you do nothing but jab at them in hopes that they attack you, any smart opponent would simply grab Mac and throw him; this attack can NOT out prioritize grabs.

Like boxing, you have to wait for your chance to strike with this move! Wait till your opponent lets their guard down for an aggressive attack, then counterpunch to send ‘em reeling!

Side B: Doc Stole My Bike!
A rather unconventional dash attack; Doc appears and hops on his bike. He hastily starts biking towards Mac’s position! Doc travels about as fast as a dashing Link and is a high priority, low knockback hitbox, dealing 11% if he smacks into a foe!

However…Doc IS only riding a bike. If the opponent hits the front wheel (with a down tilt ONLY) it’ll pop! This, obviously, means that Doc won’t be reaching your position for a while longer. Fortunately he whips out a bicycle pump and inflates the tire. The entire act of re-inflating the tire takes two seconds. What’s to stop an opponent from constantly popping the tires, rendering Doc useless, you ask? Easy; he patches it up with an “X” shaped patch. “X” shaped patches make everything better. Everything. Until Doc reaches Mac’s location, he’ll be untouchable.

To prevent this from being broken; Doc can only peddle after Mac for five seconds; any longer and he becomes winded, resting for four seconds before the Dash Attack can be used again.

Up B: Star Uppercut
This is where the stars from the Neutral B and/or Up Throw come from! In Punch-Out!!, the Star Uppercut is Mac’s trademark finishing blow; a powerful spiraling uppercut to the jaw will send most anyone to the mat! In Smash, it’s also one of Mac’s most flexible KO moves as well as his prime mode of recovery. The exact recovery height, damage and knockback is all variable depending on how many Stars Mac has obtained via either his Neutral B or Up Throw.

Zero Stars: Assuming Mac hasn’t obtained ANY Stars from his opponent, Mac’s basic uppercut will be incredibly weak, causing only 6% and very low-low knockback. In terms of recovery, it acts sort of like Zero Suit Samus’ Down B vertical distance with almost no horizontal recovery. Obviously this isn’t going to help you recover very well…

One Star: With one Star, Mac’s gloves will have a faint bronze aura around them. When activated, Mac unleashes a moderately powerful uppercut, dealing 9% and low-medium knockback. In terms of recovery, Mac will travel vertically about the distance of Bowser’s Up B and about a Kirby width of horizontal distance.

Two Stars: Mac’s gloves obtain a glowing silver aura with two Stars. Upon use of Mac’s Up B with two Stars, Mac’s uppercut will deal 11% and medium knockback. In terms of recovery, this uppercut will boost Mac about the distance of Ganondorf’s Up B vertically, and Diddy Kong’s Side B horizontally.

Three Stars: With three Stars, Mac’s Up B is nearly unmatched, plus his gloves glow an awesome gold color! This move will deal a whopping 15% and high knockback…providing you hit with it that is. In terms of recovery, Mac is given an EXCELLENT recovery option here, vertical distance rivals that of King Dedede’s Up B (albeit a tad shorter…) with just as much air control as the penguin king for horizontal distance.

Unlike Punch-Out!!, Mac won’t lose his Stars if hit (Because…ya know? That’d kind of defeat the purpose of being a recovery option…), but instead loses any stars he was in possession of before being KO’d. So oddly enough, you’re actually most vulnerable right after spawning…

Down B: The Sandbags
Mac pulls a large sandbag off of the back of his bike and eventually places it on the ground before him. Depending on how long the Smash is charged for, the sandbag Doc pulls out will vary in height. At minimum charge, the sandbag is the height of Kirby; at max, it’s Ganondorf’s height. Now, a sandbag isn’t gonna do much on its own, is it?

Of course not! Striking the sandbag causes it to swing in the opposite direction it was hit from; the harder the hit, the faster and more powerful the swing is. Now clearly…getting hit by a sandbag is gonna hurt…this attack deals about 10-19% depending on where the bag hits the foe. At the very end, it’ll cause around 19% and medium knockback. Near the middle or at the top however will only cause around 10% and low-medium knockback. The additional length added to the sandbag obviously makes it easier to hit with both…

But of course…what goes around comes around; if an opponent hits the sandbag towards you…you may want to duck.
 

rockem7

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I think that Daisy should be in, but not as a costume. As her own character. But, if she has to, she can be a costume of Peach, but she should at least have some different moves.
 

SmashChu

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JFor the record, Golden Sun is no different than Kirby, Pokemon, and Mother. And while there might be problems with an individual team (like how the Pokemon Company is supposedly anal over the designs), it shouldn't be any more difficult to settle everything with them than it would for an in-house team.

Pretty sure you know where I stand on all the characters on your list already.
Well, I was making an observation about the three games. I noticed that of the series in brawl, they only come from Nintendo 1st/2nd party developers. Even the stages with no character are from Nintendo 1st/2nd parties. I do think it's more that the series from those developers are just of better quality then some of the other stuff (although I love Golden Sun).

However, it could change come SSB4. But this is what I noticed.
 

ElPanandero

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People actually do care what movesets certain characters use. How would you like it if Snake in Brawl was using a baseball bat? Even though he ended up being top tier, his moveset just wouldn't fit him at all, and many people would dislike that, such is the case with Ganondorf. Cloning Captain Falcon doesn't do any justice for Ganondorf. He deserves a moveset overhaul, and I'm pretty sure Sakurai wanted to give him that all along, but he was just rushed for both games, so they couldn't do too much with him. If they had about as much time with Ganondorf as they did with someone like Link, I could pretty much assure you that his horrid clone moveset would be gone.
His moveset fits him exceedingly well. Giving him a sword ignores all of his early appearances and disregards his overlaying theme of being a wizard. Giving him a trident disregards his 3-D appearances. The moveset he has now, which embodies both evil, magic, and brute stength represents all aspects of Ganondorf perfectly.

His moveset is not clones, in the least. His moves bear strikingly different effects, his entire moveset revolves around defense and strong hits, and he plays nothing like Falcon.
 

ToiseOfChoice

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@Toise

I think its very safe to assume that a Wily's Castle stage would be chaotic....its Wily's Castle after all.

And quite frankly, PM's theme isn't that iconic. His whistle is really.
But what makes it so chaotic that this song wouldn't work there, even as a means of dissonance between the action and music (which plenty of songs in Brawl already do)? Classic Mega Man games in general aren't even that chaotic aside from stuff like instant kill beams. Even then, look at Green Hill Zone. That stage is retardedly tranquil compared to how Sonic games normally feel, even for Level 1 zones.

And the theme itself (post-whistle) is one of the more popular tracks, even if it's not nearly as prominent as the first five notes. Even if we ignore the association with the very popular character himself, scrapping it for more rock/techno from Whatever Man's stage or Wily Castle 500 hardly seems worthwhile.


And none of the PO characters are really suited to be bosses, because they aren't really big enough. Now what do I mean by that? If the same style of boss fights happens in SSB4 as it did in Brawl, then the bosses that are needed have to large enough to justify not being knocked around by attacks like everyone else is. Bald Bull and Sandman are larger than Mac for sure, but they are still human, and shouldn't be realistically that much bigger than say Bowser. Thus if you attack them, they should be knocked back, and the fight should play out like a traditional Smash Bros fight. (In which case, it may just be better to make them actually playable, but we know that won't happen)

Thus in conclusion, maaaybe King Hippo, but not really.
Where's the rule that says bosses have to be three stories tall? Regular Adventure Mode enemies don't do that. And if they did, what's preventing a boxer from growing to super size for whatever reason? Or being like Giga Bowser in Melee (functions like a regular character, but deliberately stronger and unplayable)?

And how come I keep having to dispute all these imaginary limitations of yours?


While Ganondorf does need a slight moveset change, there are other characters that are higher priority when it comes to new movesets. One character is Toon Link. Seriously, he has so much potential to be a unique character, and Sakurai just had to make him a clone. This is probably because he was rushed a bit and developed later in the game, so it would be much easier to give him Link's moveset.
Toon Link doesn't need a new moveset. Link and Toon Link play the exact same in Zelda games, why shouldn't they play similarly in Smash? It seems like some people care more about the fact that he's a Toon rather than the fact that he's Link.

On a similar note, clones in Smash are acceptable if the characters are essentially clones in their own games as well. Mario and Luigi? Link A and Link B? Ness and Lucas? The entire Star Fox cast (except maybe Krystal)? Yeah, it's all fine. The only one who ISN'T okay like that is Ganondorf because he might as well be Black Shadow in a Ganon suit.

There are two non-clone characters who could use some big moveset changes for the sake of accuracy: Wario and Mewtwo (assuming he reappears). Breakdance farting and tail whips are pretty lame.



Well, I was making an observation about the three games. I noticed that of the series in brawl, they only come from Nintendo 1st/2nd party developers. Even the stages with no character are from Nintendo 1st/2nd parties. I do think it's more that the series from those developers are just of better quality then some of the other stuff (although I love Golden Sun).

However, it could change come SSB4. But this is what I noticed.
Are you saying Camelot is somehow different than HAL, Creatures/Ape, and Game Freak? Because they definitely have the exact same relation to Nintendo as those three.
 

Miszi

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I hope they will put werehog into brawl. I know the plot in unleashed is kinda like you can't put werehog anywhere else anymore but i'm sure they would find a way, both sega and nintendo are very creative. I would also like nintendo to bring back the characters that didn't returned in brawl and maybe to put a real metal sonic when you get metal box... it would be so awesome. Especially cause metal sonic is one of my favourite characters.
 

BG3

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Joined
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Messages
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His moveset fits him exceedingly well. Giving him a sword ignores all of his early appearances and disregards his overlaying theme of being a wizard. Giving him a trident disregards his 3-D appearances. The moveset he has now, which embodies both evil, magic, and brute stength represents all aspects of Ganondorf perfectly.

His moveset is not clones, in the least. His moves bear strikingly different effects, his entire moveset revolves around defense and strong hits, and he plays nothing like Falcon.
He may not play anything like Falcon. But more than half of his moves have the same base as Falcon. So he may play differently, but he shouldn't be similar to him at ALL. The two characters have no relationship. Not only that, but his moveset insults Ganondorf's character. When did you ever see Ganondorf actually using his Smash moveset in the LoZ games? It's completely inaccurate and it doesn't represent him well.

To add on to his current moveset, I wasn't suggesting to give him a sword or a trident as a main weapon like Marth and Ike. But these would be great tools to bring out if his moveset gets a huge overhaul. It would be similar to Snake bringing out rocket launchers and whatnot in Brawl. I think his moveset deserves to be an all magic moveset. It fits him very well as he is prominently portrayed like that in the LoZ games. His current moveset makes him look like a completely different character.

I think all of his moves should be centered around dark magic, sorcery, and occasionally pulling the sword or trident out. IMO, that would truly please fans.
 

SmashChu

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Are you saying Camelot is somehow different than HAL, Creatures/Ape, and Game Freak? Because they definitely have the exact same relation to Nintendo as those three.
Nintendo owns Game Freak, Hal, and (I think)Creature. Nintendo does not own Camelot. They are independent. The observation was that all the series in Brawl (except 3rd parties) come from development teams owned by Nintendo. Camelot is not owned by Nintendo.
 

Starphoenix

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Nintendo owns Game Freak, Hal, and (I think)Creature. Nintendo does not own Camelot. They are independent. The observation was that all the series in Brawl (except 3rd parties) come from development teams owned by Nintendo. Camelot is not owned by Nintendo.
Considering we already see Isaac as an Assist Trophy and one Golden Sun musical track, I really think the issue is small.
 

moshiman

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Let's wait and see if this Pokemon ends up being the star of a future Pokemon movie before we can determine how likely this Pokemon would be playable in the next Smash game.
this pokemon (zoroark) is the star of a pokemon movie
pokemon phantom champion Z (zoroark)
 

Arcadenik

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this pokemon (zoroark) is the star of a pokemon movie
pokemon phantom champion Z (zoroark)
Yes, thank you for stating the obvious. I made that post before Zoroark was revealed, though.

About Isaac, he was already in Brawl as an Assist Trophy. So I think it is okay for stuff from Golden Sun to be in SSB4... My money is still on the new protagonist who looks just like Isaac but in different clothes. That's who I think will be playable in SSB4, not Isaac.
 

Gallowglass

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I'm torn between a remake of Ganondorf's moves or just improve his current ones. Ganondorf needed some serious characters change. The problem is it's hard to make Ganondorf the slow heavy hitter in Smash with his moves from Zelda Games. He uses a lot of projectiles or is a sword weilder.
 

SmashChu

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Considering we already see Isaac as an Assist Trophy and one Golden Sun musical track, I really think the issue is small.
Yes, but only as an assist trophy. Characters made by teams outside of Nintendo have trophies or are assist, but no series developed by an outside developer has a character or stage. To put it into perspective

All series that have stages in Brawl (except third parties)

Mario-Made by Nintendo in house
Donkey Kong-Made by Nintendo in house. Rare, a 2nd party, made DK games
The Legend of Zelda-Made by Nintendo In House
Metroid-Made by Nintendo in house
Yoshi-Made by Nintendo in house
Kirby-Made by Hal Labs.
Star Fox-Made by Nintendo in house
Pokemon-Made by Game Freak
F-Zero-Made by Nintendo in house
Earthbound-Made by Creature and Hal Labs.
Fire Emblem-Made by Intelligent Systems
Ice Climbers-Made by Nintendo in house
Game & Watch-A systems with unique software made by Nintendo
Warioware-Made by Nintendo in house. Intelligent Systems does most of the games
Kid Icarus-Made by Nintendo in house
Pikmin-Made by Nintendo in house
Gyromite-Made by Nintendo. R.O.B. was also a toy made by Nintendo
Animal Crossing-Made by Nintendo in house
Pictochat-A software application for the Nintendo DS. Developed by Nintendo

Electroplankton, interestingly enough, is made by Indies Zero. So, I was wrong about that (I thought it was developed by Nintendo).

Again, this is just an observation of the series. So far, all the characters (again,. save the guest) have come from series made by Nintendo or a subsidiary. Whether it changes in SSB4 has yet to be seens, but it is fact now.
 
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