[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[Twilght Link]

Alrighty then *checks off not to put special abilities for shields* im actually suprised that my idea got attention XD oh and if someone like bowser got his shield "broken" u should just see the shell crack a little

 

[Big-Cat]

I like this. This would give the nerfed heavyweights more of an advantage with a more durable overall better shield? Or are you talking about in general, where certain characters have sweet shields and some don't?

What I'm thinking is that huge bad guys with obvious shields, like Bowser, would have amazing shields which would make up for their bad dodging/speed/jump distance.

I like what you're thinking for the heavy weights. Anway, for the most part, some shields would be what's appropriate for the character and what can be done. As for Capt. Falcon's shield of Kamina manliness, he gets tired of flexing to defend himself.

 

[Chief Mendez]

As long as you can jump out of all of them, it doesn't matter what they look like, really. But I agree with SirKibble on this: they shouldn't do special things--the differences should be purely visual.

Anyways...I missed alot of stuff, so I'll just sum up the important stuff: Spire's store is a great idea, though Maruo Maruhige should definitely be the sticker salesman.

- I would totally buy a Super Smash Sisters: Xtreme Beach Volleyball game.

- Creating a custom character (bowser king brought this up, I believe) would be too complicated like so. Especially when the idea to just use Miis, and assign a custom moveset to them, is still out there. Not that I would like to see that or anything, but I think if the devs had to choose between one or the other, they'd choose the latter. The former would require a GODLY amount of balancing.

- Sonic Sez, this too is an old meme. (though not as old as Rickrolls or anything--you're getting warmer)

 

[killori]

I think there should be a free expansion channel where they put data for things that they didn't add so you could play as mewtwo or falco with arwing final smash and get maps and items and stuff from previous games.

 

[TWILTHERO]

- I would totally buy a Super Smash Sisters: Xtreme Beach Volleyball game.

Whoa, where the heck u get this idea from?
anyway, I better see some Zero Suit Samus action in that game

 

[Sol]

If Mii's were in the game..what would their FS b? or does it depend on how u create this characters moveset

 

[SuperMetroid44]

If Mii's were in the game..what would their FS b? or does it depend on how u create this characters moveset

I don't think miis can be in the game. Because they don't fight.

 

[SirKibble]

I don't think miis can be in the game. Because they don't fight.

There are quite a few Smash characters who have never fought outside of the Smash Bros. games, like R.O.B. and the Ice Climbers.

 

[Veggi]

Sorry, but no. Shields shouldn't become attacks or serve any other strategic purpose other than preventing the player from taking damage. Reflectors and absorbing attacks should stay as DownB's.

There's really no reason for that though. If a shield could have extra abilities, I don't understand why people would be against it. As long as they were balanced it would add to character individuality and that's a very good thing and I would love for shields to better represent the series with different shield traits.

@ The shield breaks discussion

I think only some shields should be able to be broken, shield breaks arn't common in game because any player who knows what he's doing knows when to stop shielding. The way to counter shielding is by grabbing and that's why I think some shield swouldn't have the shield breaking trait, but in return for having the chance of a shield break they would have something else to balance it. Change doesn't have to be a bad thing. They're only shields, as long as they are balanced it would make a great addition to Smash Bros., new playstyles could be made and characters would be more different than eachother. Kirby's stone isn't over-powered, everyone knows just to grab it.

 

[ducky285]

Mii FS = MII PARADE!!!!!!!!!

But in all serioiusness, Miis in SSB probably wouldn't work.

 

[Veggi]

Mii's would probably work, but they're stupid looking and I wouldn't be able to stand it if there were tons of people playing as Mii's online because they just wanted to play as a character they made. I like Smash being people pick up and play their favorite Nintendo characters. I don't want to see them in Smash ever.

 

[SkylerOcon]

Create a Failure

No offense, but I didn't even read your post. I've explained countless times why created characters should not be in super smash brothers.

Why, you ask?

Firstly, it would be to hard to create movesets for them. Secondly, we would get more scrubs at tournaments BAAAAAAAAAAAAWWing because they can't use their created character. Thirdly, SSB was made for the most popular characters in gaming to duke it out. Not every fanfiction writers wet dream as this gives them a loophole to give themselves a shameless self-insert into their fanfiction where they have buttsex with Marth every chapter.

Also, this applies to the Mii idea that usually pops up and is currently being talked about.

 

[metaXzero]

I have an idea. What about customizing the appearance of the characters? Like what Virtual Fighter has...

 

[kainsword]

I'm still patiently awaiting SSB4 since Brawl turned out to be a huge competitive letdown. Melee's high tier play is so much more fun to watch and is unsurprisingly much harder to master.

I made my character support miniature sigs about a week after beating SSE. At that point I just got sick of Brawl's mechanics and picked up Melee again. I still play a few matches in Melee everyday too.

Anyways as far as who directs the next SSB game, I hope that Sakurai doesn't return. He let his personal feelings into the game in the worst aspect possible. It's fine if he detests competitive play, but that's not his call to screw with the great mechanics fhat existed in Melee. In fact, in one of the interviews with Iwata or whoever the head of Nintendo Japan is stated that if Sakurai couldn't be convinced to direct Brawl that their Plan B was to keep all previous Melee mechanics and add WiFi capability. We'd have Melee 2.0 right now if it weren't for Sakurai's anti-competitive stance on the Smas Bros. franchise. I know I sound selfish by wanting Melee 2.0 over Brawl, but I still think that Melee 2.0 would be more desrable by respectable portion of the Smash Boards population.

Hopefully SSB4's director won't be so anti-competitive. Because however hard Sakurai suppresses the competitive scene, it will ALWAYS exist. Despite his efforts, mortar slider Snake spammers are rampant on WiFi and techs are still found by players to this day. The more he suppresses it, the worse the game quality in the competitive scene. Crappy competitive game: Brawl. Excellent competitive game: Melee. Both games are regarded to be extremely competitve, regardless of how hard Sakurai tries to influence it.

For example, Bungie had no idea that Halo: Combat Evolved would turn out to be so competitive. When designing Halo 2 and 3, they balanced core gameplay to support competition and used online rankings to even out online match skill. This was still a great game for newbies and casual players. However Sakurai's (IMO, childish) view of competition really inhibits the growth of popularity for Brawl. Instead, we have Brawl with poor online functionality (Halo 2 has long since become the industry standard in online play quality.) and a relatively shallow high level gameplay, by Melee terms.

I just really hope SSB4 can solve the problems in Brawl.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think I've mentioned this before, but I'll mention it again anyway.

Special moves need to be special again.

They shouldn't be shared except for Mario and Luigi. If two characters share the same move (like Link and Pit's B), it's fine as long as it's being faithful to the original games. I mean, look at the space anthros. For the most part, they're moves are pretty much the same. The same goes for the MOTHER kids, even though PK Freeze and Flash move differently, they're basically the same attack.

 

[Pieman0920]

Miis have actually fought before, what with their boxing game in Wii Sports. Other moves could easily be imported from the sports they play in many of their games, like throwing a bowling ball, or swinging a baseball bat. =/

 

[darkserenade]

Will the shields protect from grabs? Also, costume changes should be given more liberty. Perhaps change B moves or give another weapon choice. Imagine how many delays we'll hear if they incorperate all the good ideas on this thread. "We're very sorry about this 1-year delay."

 

[C.Olimar788]

Will the shields protect from grabs? Also, costume changes should be given more liberty. Perhaps change B moves or give another weapon choice. Imagine how many delays we'll hear if they incorperate all the good ideas on this thread. "We're very sorry about this 1-year delay."

Costume changes should primarily stay just as they are; aesthetic, nothing more. They add a bit of a stylistic flair to the character as a color. Maybe instead of actually changing moves they could just color them too? Like Pikachu with Red's hat would have a red tint to its electricity.

Changing some moves more could work better for full out alternate costumes (i.e. Mario to Dr. Mario or Pikachu to Pichu), but even then I think it should stay mostly aesthetic.

Speaking of costume changes, they need to add the ability to color them yourself. Since Smash is likely never going to get a full out character maker (hopefully) they should add that as a bit of compensation.

 

[mariofanpm12]

to cut down on spam, id say that certain projectiles should have "ammunition" of sorts. Link could only have 30 arrows. It could be reset after every KO you take, but it'd still help cut down spam online, big time.

As for sheilding, I say it simply should be more inspired, with Link using his actual Hylian Sheild and not forming a bubble, or Ike holding his sword out horizontally to block hits. Only Yoshi got his own custom sheild.

A cool feature would of course be having customizable special moves. for example, say you wnat FLUDD for mario's down b, but someone else wants the tornado. you could choose what you wanted for that type of stuff. it could potentially add depth to the competitive scene because even if two professional marios afced eachother, they may have different special movesets, making matches deeper.

if miis were there...eh... i dont't know what they'd do about their stats like speed and power. Perhaps it would be based on your mii's height and weight, or it could be set manually, but with limitations. for attacks, they'd use boxing gloves, baseball bats, golf clubs, tennis rackets, bowling balls, etc. for a final smash... mii parade.


i guess that if smash were to get a new director, they would probably see the need to try and mix brawl's casual style with melee's competive... and come out with say, melee/brawl 1.5... don't ask. there'd be brawl's physics, but with some ATs from melee like l-canceling and wavedashing, and whatnot

also for costumes they'd probably never do somethings, but i say that the costumes shouldn't merely be palette swaps.... perhaps this is a good example using mario... The costumes should be mor einspired, or even change the clothes style entirely (not the moveset, tho). If movesets were changed, they would only change visiully, not in effect

1: Red Shirt, Blue Overalls, like normal
2: White Shirt, Red Overalls, like Fire Mario
3: Blue Shirt, Red Overalls, like Classic Mario (Jumpman)
4: White Coat, Black Pants, like Dr. Mario (the fireballs become megavitamins, but keep the same power, range, trajectory, etc.)
5: Short-sleeved red shirt, Blue Pants (from Super Mario Sunshine)
6: Yellow Shirt, Purple Overalls (Wario)
none of these are just mere palette swaps with no inspiration at all

so wut do u guys think?

 

[kr3wman]

Don't you think people would use the specials that are the most effective, like in Third Strike?

 

[mariofanpm12]

Don't you think people would use the specials that are the most effective, like in Third Strike?

thats true... or they'd change them depending on the opposing character.

 

[darkserenade]

Move changes have been solemnly spoken of. Let's talk about those.

 

[Bowser King]

No offense, but I didn't even read your post. I've explained countless times why created characters should not be in super smash brothers.

Why, you ask?

Firstly, it would be to hard to create movesets for them. Secondly, we would get more scrubs at tournaments BAAAAAAAAAAAAWWing because they can't use their created character. Thirdly, SSB was made for the most popular characters in gaming to duke it out. Not every fanfiction writers wet dream as this gives them a loophole to give themselves a shameless self-insert into their fanfiction where they have buttsex with Marth every chapter.

Also, this applies to the Mii idea that usually pops up and is currently being talked about.

I agree. I just saw this thread with someone saying how we shouldn't have it (and I agree) but I always thought it would be intresting to try it. I even said it was a crazy idea I wouldn't want, just a way for it to work (like create a pokemon in spires 5th gen thread).

 

[darkserenade]

Ganon really should be given upgrades. Yoshi and Samus, too. Even CF.

 

[Bowser King]

Jiggs was a character I think shouldn't have been nerfed. She needs more buffs in SSB4.

 

[metaXzero]

Ganon should've been given a game based moveset. Instead of cruelly taunting with his sword...-_-

 

[mantlecore77]

Move changes have been solemnly spoken of. Let's talk about those.

Ganon should've been given a game based moveset. Instead of cruelly taunting with his sword...-_-

Yes for the Ganondorf sword attacks.

Luigi should be like Mario (hold on, keep reading) in having his own utility for a Down-B, to be more specific, his ghost vacuum from Luigi's Mansion. (Can't think of the name right now)
It would be like Dedede's swallow, but could be charged like Mario's FLUDD (which I actually think is a horrible move that could've been better/more effective) so the longer he charges, the longer the character is trapped into his bag. And thus...

Luigicide!

 

[darkserenade]

Yes for the Ganondorf sword attacks.

Luigi should be like Mario (hold on, keep reading) in having his own utility for a Down-B, to be more specific, his ghost vacuum from Luigi's Mansion. (Can't think of the name right now)
It would be like Dedede's swallow, but could be charged like Mario's FLUDD (which I actually think is a horrible move that could've been better/more effective) so the longer he charges, the longer the character is trapped into his bag. And thus...

Luigicide!

Exactly! At least it could give Luigi some ground game, right?

 

[mantlecore77]

Exactly! At least it could give Luigi some ground game, right?

Yes, yes. It all makes sense.

But, where would his Luigi Tornado go? Would it be transferred to his Aerial Down like Mario..?
Or better yet, make him different from Mario again and make it his Smash Down..?
Or just drop it entirely, entitling Mario to the Tornado Spin period?

 

[darkserenade]

Yes, yes. It all makes sense.

But, where would his Luigi Tornado go? Would it be transferred to his Aerial Down like Mario..?
Or better yet, make him different from Mario again and make it his Smash Down..?
Or just drop it entirely, entitling Mario to the Tornado Spin period?

Dair wouldn't work, because Mario's is awful. I think it's time to say goodbye to Tornado spin.

 

[Dan_Fumaster]

Hm. SSB4. The first thing I would appreciate is a faster-paced game. I like playing Brawl, but I would like a little more effort placed on fast reflexes and quick thinking. It gives a little more game to the characters who have slow attacks.

Take out the tripping. I really dislike tripping when I land. I understand that dashing everywhere results in lots of trips, but bringing a fight in to the air ends rather abruptly when I land and immediately trip. Perhaps, tripping could be applied to certain attacks (banana, missing with Falcon's side B, etc) rather than movement.

The Fox-trot. Perhaps, characters could actually have a Mini-Dash that could be similar to a roll except without invulnerability but with offensive options. Other fighting games implement this idea (but they typically do not have a normal full-out dash).

As for characters. Well, they have been keeping Marth. I suppose I still have luck. I would like to see more Fire Emblem characters but preferably those who don't use swords? Perhaps Ephraim, Hector, Magic User, etc could be added. We have the two extremes: Fast/Fragile and Slow/Sturdy. Now we need someone in the middle.

 

[ducky285]

I still like the idea of a Power Smash or Power Special. Anyone whose played Darkstalkers or Third Strike might be familiar with ES/EX moves and this system is somewhat similar.

The idea is you perform a certain command involving A or B and you would perform a souped up version of a smash or special attack. How it affects the move could be char specific and move specific.

Ex.
Mario - Power f-smash as increased knockback and range
DK - Power f-smash has same power but comes out much faster and lags less

Other effects: invincibility frames, added hits, unblockability, larger hit box, more active frames...etc,

The only problems...

1. How would these be limited? Meter system? Item? Something else no one has thought of?
2. What sort of commands would perform these moves?

My idea is a single meter that allows one or more Power Attack to be used. No stocks. Meter builds as you deal damage and is saved when you get KOd.

Commands would be something like this, i think...

FF + A or B= Power F-smash/sideB
DD + A or B= Power D-smash/downB
UU + A or B = Power U-smash/upB (contingent on tap jump being off, I think...)
B, F + B = Power neutalB

or we could go the Capcom route and do..

QCF = Power F-smash/sideB
F,D,DF = Power U-smash/upB
DD = Power D-smash/downB
B, F = Power neutalB

But that would probably be anti-Smash since it mucks with the simple nature of the controls

Another idea is one Power smash done by pressing A+B. But what about specials?

Any ideas? I think this would best be used to add a new mechanic that fits into the Smash motif rather than one that tries to reinvent it into a traditional fighter. This is only a rough idea so some comments and suggestions would be nice.

 

[darkserenade]

I still like the idea of a Power Smash or Power Special. Anyone whose played Darkstalkers or Third Strike might be familiar with ES/EX moves and this system is somewhat similar.

The idea is you perform a certain command involving A or B and you would perform a souped up version of a smash or special attack. How it affects the move could be char specific and move specific.

Ex.
Mario - Power f-smash as increased knockback and range
DK - Power f-smash has same power but comes out much faster and lags less

Other effects: invincibility frames, added hits, unblockability, larger hit box, more active frames...etc,

The only problems...

1. How would these be limited? Meter system? Item? Something else no one has thought of?
2. What sort of commands would perform these moves?

My idea is a single meter that allows one or more Power Attack to be used. No stocks. Meter builds as you deal damage and is saved when you get KOd.

Commands would be something like this, i think...

FF + A or B= Power F-smash/sideB
DD + A or B= Power D-smash/downB
UU + A or B = Power U-smash/upB (contingent on tap jump being off, I think...)
B, F + B = Power neutalB

or we could go the Capcom route and do..

QCF = Power F-smash/sideB
F,D,DF = Power U-smash/upB
DD = Power D-smash/downB
B, F = Power neutalB

But that would probably be anti-Smash since it mucks with the simple nature of the controls

Another idea is one Power smash done by pressing A+B. But what about specials?

Any ideas? I think this would best be used to add a new mechanic that fits into the Smash motif rather than one that tries to reinvent it into a traditional fighter. This is only a rough idea so some comments and suggestions would be nice.

I'm not so sure about this idea. It doesn't sound like Smash at all.

 

[Veggi]

Move changes have been solemnly spoken of. Let's talk about those.

There needs to be some serious moveset changes this time around. Donkey Kong's moveset now is terrible.

Copy/Paste Moveset

Donkey Kong

I remade DK's moveset so that it's actually from his games.

Walljump: Yes (he can wall jump in Jungle Beat, even though it bothered me that DK was the only DK character in it, he can still do it, plus DK is a platformer character and even in Smash he's designed on being an agile heavy weight.)

Wall cling: No (He doesn't cling to walls, obviously.)

Crawl: Yes (DK can crawl, he does it to get under things in DKC.)

Specials

Up B: Barrel Cannon, he gets into a barrel cannon and it's the type that rotates around and you press A to make it shoot at the desired point. Sonic makes a spring come out of nowhere, DK can do it too. This was a major part of DKC. (Origin: DKC)

Neutral B: HIS COCONUT GUN IT FIRES IN SPURTS IF HE SHOOTS YA ITS GONNA HURT. It helps DK with ranged characters, he does it in his games, and it's an original projectile because it fires in spurts. (Origin: DK64)

Side B: Roll, it's his signature move from DKC why wasn't it in Smash? Anyway, it functions as an attack that does mild damage, and has some lag at the end, yet if the move connects it erases the lag (the exact same as in Donkey Kong Country.) Now I'm going to quote Cranky Kong on this one "Roll off a platform and jump to do a Super Jump!" Think of the combo potential. I love just thinking about it. This is a perfect move for Smash. Albeit a bit complex. >_> (Origin: DKC)

Down B: Same, I actually like this move, go figure. (Origin: DKC)

Dash Attack

Dash Attack: Supports self with hands and swings forward with both feet. (Origin: DK64)

Standard A Combo

Standard A Combo: Slap, slap, both hands down slap. (Origin: DK64)

Tilts

Forward Tilt: Same, but this move would be weaker, but have a bit nicer reach. (Origin: DK64)

Down Tilt: Punch at the ground two times. (two hit attack) (Origin: DK: Jungle Beat)

Up Tilt: Clap, creates a ball of sound that hits all around him. (This isn't as over powered as it sounds guys, it does low damage just like most tilts, and his up tilt hits all around him in Brawl.) (Origin DK: Jungle Beat)

Smashes

Forward Smash: That awesome looking uppercut from the link I put up here. Would KO off the top of the stage and imagine getting a hit the screen KO from that. @_@ (Origin: DKC2)

Up Smash: He would have one of those freak moves like Ganny's up tilt and half of Snake's moves. DK would duck and throw an orange above him and the orange would asplode. (Origin: DK64)

Down Smash: DK makes a wide stance and slams his arms out to the left in right like when he breaks out of the ropes in DKC2 (yeah this is sort of lame, I'm sorry. ) (Origin: DKC2)

Aerials

Forward Air: Same, one of the 3 moves I liked. (Origin: DK64)

Down Air: Does a ground pound, it has a hit box that surrounds DK when he lands, but he's still a bit vulnerable. (Origin: DK64)

Uair: DK spins counter clock-wise with his foot out, if people get hit they get carried around with it and spiked at the end. Yes, a uair that spikes, how awesome. This would have tricky timing similiar to Ness' dair though. (Origin: DK: Jungle Beat)

Neutral Air: Pulls himself into a ball, like rolling off a platform in DKC, you could attack people in the air in front of you. (Origin: DKC)

Back Air: DK hits people with his back while doing a backflip. One of the more lame moves, I know. (Origin: DK64)

Throws

Forward throw: Cargo'ing I actually did like this move, I forgot about it. (Origin: DKC, or if you want to include the "Donkey Kong" Donkey Kong, Donkey Kong.)

Up throw: Has a forwardish knock back, the way DK threw barrels in DKC. (Origin: DKC)

Down throw: Jumps ontop of the opponent and punches rapidly. (Origin: DK: Jungle Beat)

Back throw: Gorilla Grab, grabs to foe and pulls them backwards forcefully. (Origin: DK64)

Other things that need to be changed...

Mario's f-smash changed to a hammer. Mario's side b swapped for fire balls, neutral b swapped for Luma Spin. Mario's FLUDD doesn't need to be primed. Mario's up b changed to hover nozzel. New dair is ground pound.

Luigi's down b changed to Poltergust, some of his other moves need to be changed, but I don't have any ideas at the moment.

Bowser's up b needs to be the shockwave jump from Mario 64 and Galaxy. Down b needs to shoot flames in the air as an anti-air move. Old down b as new dair.

There's some obvious changes that need to be made like Ganon and Falco, but I don't really feel like doing it now.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

i have an idea for the move tweaking: for mario's fludd, how about when you use it in the air you use the hover nozzle allowing you to stop you momentum and move horizontally (like peaches floating ability).

edit: i posted this before i saw the above post. and i think mario's up b is fine.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Geno should have a suicide move if he gets in.

I'M HILARIOUS.

They'll never change a characters whole moveset, except for maybe Ganon.

 

[Smasherk808]

i have an idea for the move tweaking: for mario's fludd, how about when you use it in the air you use the hover nozzle allowing you to stop you momentum and move horizontally (like peaches floating ability).

edit: i posted this before i saw the above post. and i think mario's up b is fine.

Good idea! and i also agree with the luigi potergeist thing too!

 

[mantlecore77]

Geno should have a suicide move if he gets in.

I'M HILARIOUS.

Nice.

They'll never change a characters whole moveset, except for maybe Ganon.

As true as this is, I was extremely pleased at the changes they did to Falco's basic attacks.
Luigi was a good example of changing up a moveset almost completely, too.
But other than those two... your statement is unfortunately true.

Good idea! and i also agree with the luigi potergeist thing too!

Poltergust 3000! Thanks smasherk, you reminded me finally of the name of the vacuum.

 

[Big-Cat]

I posted this last month, and I'll post it again regarding Ness and Lucas' movesets.

Ness:

B: PK Flash
Same as before, but it should explode when time is up like in Melee

Side B: PK Hypnosis
Ness shoots an invisible beam from his fingers and it goes straight in his direction. Anyone hit will fall asleep. This move does not work on opponents in the air as this is too broken. However, it will put the character in a state as if they've used their Up B.

Down B: PK Paralysis
Works exactly like Zamus' Down Smash A except it the range is a Ness-width longer.

Up B: PK Teleport
Ness opens a worm hole underneath and disappears. Then, a worm hole opens facing the direction chosen by the player and Ness flies out of it. Anyone hit by Ness while he flies out will suffer an attack like PK Thunder 2.

Final Smash: PK Rockin' Omega
Ness makes a guitar out of PSI and starts playing either Pollyanna, Bein' Friends, Pokey Means Business, or the Hippie Battle Theme (which one doesn't matter, it's an easter egg). While playing, various shapes fly out of the guitar and hit anyone close enough.

Lucas:

B: PK Love
Shoots the attack like he does PK Fire and has the same knockback.

Side B: Salt Water Gun
Takes out a water gun that is automatically charged and shoots it for knockback and some damage. Note, the gun recharges on its own over time.

Down B: PK Counter
Lucas casts a shield upon himself and waits for an attack. Once attacked, Lucas will swing his stick and attack. If attacked with a projectile, Lucas will swing it back.

Up B: Hinawa's Pigeons
Lucas' mother brings pigeons to help him from the afterlife. These pigeons will pick Lucas up and Lucas can move side to side while rising.

Final Smash: PK Love Omega
Lucas creates a giant ball of PK Love and tosses it out in front of him. The attack can go through any stage and inflicts enough damage to kill.

 

[Veggi]

^
Movesets should've had more work put into them like that. Imagine any other fighting game just giving DK's moveset (save down b, forward tilt and fair) to one of their characters, I'd have no idea it was DK if Smash Bros. didn't exist.