[Official SSB4 Discussion] --- Nintendo announces 2 new Smash games!

[ryuu seika]

I would have thought megaman would steal powers that weren't from his games and do so by KOing rather than grabbing.

Bowser -> Flamethrower (Dark Orange Cannon)
Captain Falcon -> Empowered Punch (Dark Red Cannon)
Diddy Kong -> Banana (Light Brown Cannon)
Donkey Kong -> ??? (Dark Brown Cannon)
Falco -> Lasers (Grey Cannon)
Fox -> Lasers (Grey Cannon)
Ganondorf -> Empowered Punch (Dark Red Cannon)
Ice Climbers -> Frigid Air Blower (Very Light Blue Cannon)
Ike -> Shield Breaker (Navy Blue Cannon)
Jiggly Puff -> Sleep Effect (Light Pink Cannon)
King Dedede -> Vacuum (Darker Pink Cannon)
Kirby -> Vacuum (Darker Pink Cannon)
Link -> Bomb Set (Light Green Cannon)
Lucario -> Shadow Ball (Dark Purple Cannon)
Lucas -> PK Thunder (Pale Yellow Cannon)
Luigi -> Fireball (Light Red Cannon)
Mario -> Fireball (Light Red Cannon)
Marth -> Shield Breaker (Navy Blue Cannon)
Meta Knight -> Meta Tornado (Pale Black Cannon)
Mr. Game & Watch -> Bacon Flip (G&W Black Cannon)
Ness -> PK Thunder (Pale Yellow Cannon)
Olimar -> Pikmin Pluck (Off White Cannon)
Peach -> Toad Grab (Peach Cannon)
Pikachu -> Thunder (Regular Yellow Cannon)
Pit -> Light Arrows (Pure White Cannon)
Charizad -> Flamethrower (Dark Orange Cannon)
Squirtle -> Water Gun (Pale Blue Cannon)
Ivysaur -> Vine Whip (Turquoise Cannon)
R.O.B. -> Lasers (Grey Cannon)
Samus -> Controlled Missile (Samus Orange Cannon)
Snake -> Bomb Set (Light Green Cannon)
Sonic -> Spin Dash (Glowing Blue Cannon)
Toon Link -> Bomb Set (Light Green Cannon)
Wario -> Fart Gun (Pale Purple Cannon)
Wolf -> Lasers (Grey Cannon)
Yoshi -> Egg Shot (Green Spotted White Cannon)
Zelda -> Din's Fire (Gold Cannon)
Sheik -> Needles (Gold Cannon)
Zero Suit Samus -> Controlled Missile (Samus Orange Cannon)

My suggestions, colours may vary.

 

[SuperMetroid44]

Did you really have to ask?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog_(Duck_Hunt)

It's Wikipedia, but yeah. You really have to either A) accept the fact that the dog is a well-known gaming icon or B) find some other reason to argue against the character.

OK, well, now that there's a source, I won't deny it. However, I will still and always believe that the Duck Hunt Dog will never deserve to be in SSB, simply cuz of previous stated reasons.

OK, now that that's done, what debate are we having now. .-.

 

[Big-Cat]

Arc and I were just discussing MvC3. It lead into Muddy Mole being a trap based character like Trish.

 

[Shorts]

the duck hunt dog is basically a nintendo icon and is easily more well known than lets see, deoxys, lucas, ness, every fire emblem character, olimar, captain falcon, gameandwatch, issac, tom nook or navi.

but then again maybe your like twelve years old and all your friends would be the same age, but just because the little kiddies don't know who the duck hunt dog is, doesnt mean that most people dont.

don't forget there is a generation of gamers that WEREN'T born on the xbox/wii/ps3............

Don't forget that this "new generation" (If you can call it that) of gamers that grew up playing SNES, N64, GC or Wii is far larger then the population of gamers who grew up playing NES. Don't be rediculous. Deoxys is newer, and YES he is more recognizable then duck hunt dog. You have to remember people like us who are nintendo psychos are few and far between. The Generation of NES gamers is MUCH smaller then the generation of SNES/N64/GC/Wii gamers. It's simple math. Just look at the sales numbers for NES systems vs. Wii systems. Let's take..... Deoxys for example. Just using the numbers of RSE games sold, and putting up against the number of Duck Hunt games sold. That gives us base numbers of who is more well known. Sure, I've played duck hunt, and other new generation gamers have too. But take Pokemon's Anime in to play, and the movies as well. And Deoxys is far more recognizable then Duck Hunt Dog.

It isn't even a competition. Keep in mind there IS a difference between well known, and Iconic. Im not argueing Deoxys is more Iconic.

I definitely grew up in the transition from SNES to N64. So no, not twelve. (Like that even matters?) Just because my history teacher wasn't born is 1000 BC doesn't mean he's clueless as to what went on then. Lets take Doris day, and Britney Spears as an example. People who were alive in the fifties would know allllll about Doris day, but who were born in the Ninties to now, would know about britney. Not to mention any adult alive knows about Britney Spears. Just because someone is Iconic or ground breaking, doesn't make them well known. I bet none of you know who Dorris Day is. Duck Hunt is Doris, and doexys is Britney (To a lesser extent)

 

[Beninator]

Melee Style.

 

[ryuu seika]

So we can assume that this "deoxys" is a pokemon then?

 

[Shorts]

So we can assume that this "deoxys" is a pokemon then?

Nope. He's a brand new Mario character.

 

[ryuu seika]

I think I know Mario well enough to know that that isn't true. I have honestly never heard of this strange mass of odd letters guy that you're suggesting though.

 

[DekuBoy]

So we can assume that this "deoxys" is a pokemon then?

Just want to point out that he's in Brawl and you could have Googled him.

 

[ryuu seika]

I could have googled him but then I wouldn't be disproving the "everyone knows dexyso" point now would I?
Plus, if he really is a pokemon, I'd rather stay ignorant.

 

[Shorts]

I could have googled him but then I wouldn't be disproving the "everyone knows dexyso" point now would I?
Plus, if he really is a pokemon, I'd rather stay ignorant.

See, you aren't a good example. You just totally contradicted the point you were trying to make. You say "See, no one knows Deoxys" But then you show how biased you are.

Was Duck Hunt Dog ever a trophy or sticker? I know that the ducks were a trophy in Melee.

 

[ryuu seika]

See, you aren't a good example. You just totally contradicted the point you were trying to make. You say "See, no one knows Deoxys" But then you show how biased you are.

Actually, all I said was that not everyone knows said jumble of letters. That statement still holds.

 

[Shorts]

Actually, all I said was that not everyone knows said jumble of letters. That statement still holds.

No, you actually said , and I quote

Plus, if he really is a pokemon, I'd rather stay ignorant.

You obviously don't like pokemon, which is fine. Not everyone does. But that's the reason you don't know him. You refuse to even try to know him.

 

[Arcadenik]

No, I think I get what ryuu seika is trying to say. I think he is saying that many people might recognize Deoxys when they see him but they don't know his name is "Deoxys" (the jumble of letters).

 

[DekuBoy]

Well as long as they know him to see him, little else really matters if he ever was included as a playable character in a SSB game.

 

[Shorts]

No, I think I get what ryuu seika is trying to say. I think he is saying that many people might recognize Deoxys when they see him but they don't know his name is "Deoxys" (the jumble of letters).

Okay, while I see where he is going with this, I think the name thing could be misleading. For example, if we showed every gamer in the world the name "Deoxys" and the name "Duck Hunt Dog" I think his generic name could be misleading. Still, i would bet my money on Deoxys being more recognized even name wise.

 

[Arcadenik]

Right and we come back to the "no names" issue. It does not really matter if the Dog has a name or not because many people recognize the Dog when they see him. It also helps that there are no other video game dogs or Nintendo's dogs that look like the Dog from Duck Hunt.

Everyone knows what Norma Jeane Mortenson looks like but most of them don't know who is this "Norma Jeane Mortenson" person.

 

[Arcadenik]

I don't think his generic name would be so misleading, especially when the name has the name of the game he came from. If we had this debate in 2000, before Melee came out, would you be saying that "Mr. Game & Watch" is misleading when it specifically refers to the Game & Watch games in the 1980's or even the Game & Watch Gallery games for the Game Boy in the late 1990's?

Arc and I were just discussing MvC3. It lead into Muddy Mole being a trap based character like Trish.

Yes, let's go back to that. So you were asking me if Muddy uses assistants or helpers in his game. No, he does not have anyone helping him out. He was all on his own throughout the eight worlds.

My suggestion for setting traps is this: pressing Down+B on the ground and Muddy would dig a hole to trap an opponent but pressing Down+B in the air and Muddy would do something similar to a ground pound, only he grabs the opponent and dives towards the ground to bury the opponent in a hole. But if he does not grab the opponent in the air, he can just dig a hole on the ground when he lands. That way, this move can be both a trapping/zoning move (in the ground) and an anti-air move (in the air) but the main purpose of this move is to bury the opponent.

To give you some ideas for his moveset in addition to being a trap-based character like Trish, Muddy defeats enemies by rolling/throwing giant lettuces and iron balls at them in his game.

I distinctly remember playing Mole Mania and the controls were this: A Button was for digging and B Button was for grabbing giant lettuces and iron balls. While holding the B Button, you can either press "forward" to kick them to make them roll in the direction in front of you or press "back" to do some sort of a suplex to make them roll in the direction behind of you.

In the original game, there is no difference in strength between giant lettuces and iron balls but in Smash, I do think that iron balls should be stronger than giant lettuces (obviously).

Here is some gameplay footage of Mole Mania if you are interested in learning more about Muddy Mole.

 

[Shorts]

I don't think his generic name would be so misleading, especially when the name has the name of the game he came from. If we had this debate in 2000, before Melee came out, would you be saying that "Mr. Game & Watch" is misleading when it specifically refers to the Game & Watch games in the 1980's or even the Game & Watch Gallery games for the Game Boy in the late 1990's?[/URL]

No I wasn't saying it was misleading if it was in a smash game. I was referring to asking every gamer in the world "Do you know Deoxys?" and do you know "Duck Hunt Dog?" But a picture would make my imaginary poll more accurate I guess. I'm not totally against him in smash. He would be an awesome assist trophy. I would prefer to not see him playable. I grew to like (somewhat) G&W, and I actually DO like R.O.B. But, Duck Hunt Dog may be too far for me. If he plays obnoxious I would despise him.


On a random note, can someone name off, in their opinion, the ten most recognizable pokemon. (At least one from the first four Generations)

I was thinking this:

1.Pikachu
2.Mewtwo
3.Jigglypuff
4.Charizard
5.Pichu
6.Meowth
7.Mew
8.Lucario
9. Suicune
10.Deoxys

Third and forth gen have like....five really memorable pokemon each, and then a ton that aren't.

 

[Big-Cat]

I looked at the first few minutes of the video, Arc, and here's an idea for a special moveset:

B: Iron Ball
Pulls out an iron ball. This has the weight of a barrel or crate and can be picked up by anyone. Muddy Mole is unique with him being able to press B on the item as well and enter a grab state similar to the one in his game. Press forward and you throw the item higher than you would a barrel. Press backward and you do a suplex that turns the ball into an anti-air with an arc. This is ideal for edgeguarding.

Side B: Dig Forward
Digs a hole in the ground and digs forward. Press B while going forward to to launch out. This is to counter projectiles while being on the offensive. The downside to this attack is that you can be predictable and is very unsafe on block.

Down B: Dig - This is the center of Muddle Mole's playstyle.
Dig a whole in the ground, but this will not work on platforms where you can go under (like Battlefield's platforms). With this hole, you have the following options:

Down B where the whole is and you can go into the hole. From there, you can use this to dodge ground attacks and projectiles, but this state is vulnerable to aerial attacks (think something like Link's DAir). You also have access to a stronger version of your Up B that goes straight up and comes up quick, but a well spaced and active aerial will stuff it.

You can set up to two holes at any given time. If you try to dig a third one, the first one will disappear.

Despite the defensive uses, this is a strong zoning tool. If your opponent walks over the hole, he'll fall into a pitfall like state. This is key as this is where you start your combos or perform K.O. moves. If the opponent jumps over it, a lettuce ball will shoot out and hit the opponent for minimum knockback.

If you Down B in the air, Muddle Mole goes into a downward drill state that keeps going until he lands and makes a new hole. If you do this next an opponent in the air, you'll enter a command grab state with both of you drilling into the ground. Both versions of this attack goes through transparent platforms like the aforementioned BF platforms.

Up B:
Mole Drill
Works essentially like Wario's Up B.

 

[Arcadenik]

Wow! That is a really good moveset. This is quite close to something I had envisioned for Muddy if he were to become playable in Smash. It makes me want to support Muddy even more!

I still think about that pre-Brawl rumor about Sakurai saying something about how Muddy is so interesting that he might be in the roster. It is unfortunate that there is no source of this but I do remember this rumor. It is likely false since he isn't in Brawl... but for SSB4, I hope he finally gets in.

We don't have a Game Boy exclusive character in Smash. Sure, Kirby, Wario, and Pokemon originated on the Game Boy but they all appeared in many other consoles and handhelds since then. Muddy never left the Game Boy.

 

[Big-Cat]

It's not a rumor. I distinctly recall seeing it in an IGN article that was written up real soon after the first trailer came up. He mentions Muddy Mole and mentioned that he might already be in the game. Of course, everyone assumed he meant as a playable character, but Sakurai might've been referring to something like the stickers (THAT DOESN'T COUNT! THAT'S LIKE SAYING NICK FURY IS IN MVC3!).

And I forgot one additional aspect about Muddy Mole being in the hole, you can go straight into his Side B, completely bypassing the initial digging startup time.

 

[Arcadenik]

I think it would be good if Muddy could trap his enemies in a Pitfall state when he is moving past them while underground. It might sound cheap but like you said before, it is predictable and unsafe.

Another thing that could work is this: Muddy could make enemies fall through the platforms (like the ones in Battlefield) by doing Down+B in the air. Muddy could force his opponents to fall through these types of platforms but he doesn't fall through them. But if he missed the opponent, I think he might fall through the platforms. I think this tactic should be handled with care when you are on these platforms and there are nothing under them. For example, the moving platform in Smashville... it is safe to do this when it is above the main stage but you don't KO your enemies or accidentally KO yourself this way. But if it is off stage, it is very risky as you can either KO your enemies or accidentally KO yourself. You know, high risk, high reward.

Oh, and Muddy Mole didn't even get a sticker in Brawl.

 

[Fawfulcopter]

No I wasn't saying it was misleading if it was in a smash game. I was referring to asking every gamer in the world "Do you know Deoxys?" and do you know "Duck Hunt Dog?" But a picture would make my imaginary poll more accurate I guess. I'm not totally against him in smash. He would be an awesome assist trophy. I would prefer to not see him playable. I grew to like (somewhat) G&W, and I actually DO like R.O.B. But, Duck Hunt Dog may be too far for me. If he plays obnoxious I would despise him.


On a random note, can someone name off, in their opinion, the ten most recognizable pokemon. (At least one from the first four Generations)

I was thinking this:

1.Pikachu
2.Mewtwo
3.Jigglypuff
4.Charizard
5.Pichu
6.Meowth
7.Mew
8.Lucario
9. Suicune
10.Deoxys

Third and forth gen have like....five really memorable pokemon each, and then a ton that aren't.

That is NOT the 10 most memorable Pokemon.
Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Meowth, Charizard, Mewtwo, Mew, Togepi, Lucario, Blaziken, Squirtle.
Like it or not, Deoxys isn't that well known. Lots of people who own R/S/E don't know who Deoxys is, because Deoxys was an event-exclusive Pokemon, and those are rarely if ever advertised.
And the only time he EVER appeared in the series was during the Deoxys movie, and yes, plenty of people knew him from that, but claiming that everyone who bought R/S/E or everyone who watches the anime knows Deoxys is stupid.
Also, um, I think more people would know Duck Hunt Dog is the Dog from Duck Hunt. He's kind of very infamous.

Also, on muddy:

Those big iron balls? Yeah, those are bombs.
Like, totally. Least that's how I figure it.
And Cabbages should TOTES be incorporated into his moveset.

 

[Shorts]

That is NOT the 10 most memorable Pokemon.

Uhhh?

the ten most recognizable pokemon. (At least one from the first four Generations)

Considering what I asked I would consider my list is accurate. Or close. Minun/Plusle, Blaziken and Gardevior(sp) are/were pretty popular too. Deoxys and Lucario were probably the most popular from their generations. And your whole arguement on people who bought R/S/E wouldn't know deoxys is dumb. You knew who mew was right? He wasn't even obtainable in R/B. His movie made him popular. They are in the same boat. Deoxys is better off than mew because he was obtainable. But Mew's movie was more popular. Either way you get what I'm saying. I don't think Deoxys is in the top ten list for reals. More like top forty.



Anyways, so I was wondering how you think SSb4's site should be run. I don't want what we got with brawl. I would prefer a site like the Pre-Daily updated site. Just a little pic/bio of a few newcomers and the four main. That's it. I hate the spoilers. >.>

 

[Fawfulcopter]

Maybe two sites, a spoilerific one and a spoiler-lite one.
I sure loved the Brawl site.

Also, of interest to the Duck Hunt Dog name conversation:
http://kidicarus222.blogspot.com/2009/01/dog-who-laughs.html

 

[Senjen]

umm mew is obtainable in red and blue version as well as yellow version, you have to pull off an infamous glitch to get it,

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~jdonald/pokemon/mewglitch.html

 

[Shorts]

umm mew is obtainable in red and blue version as well as yellow version, you have to pull off an infamous glitch to get it,

http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~jdonald/pokemon/mewglitch.html

Sooo, in other words not obtainable without cheating?

What you're suggesting is similar to this: Dialga isn't obtainable when you only have two badges.....unless you use an action replay. Then he is obtainable at anytime.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

Technically, it's not called cheating since you don't use any external devices, such as an Action Replay or Gameshark.

When it comes to the first Pokémon games, you can be sure to find many glitches that either benefit the player, or screw up your savefile.

 

[Big-Cat]

So is anyone besides me getting in on the MvC action besides me? Looking at some of the characters and their playstyles, there's a chuck load of possibilities you can find in that game. If we can link Trish to Muddy Mole, Felicia to Sonic (to a certain extent), I wonder what else we can find.

Then there's Sentinel to Ridley as I've mentioned briefly.

 

[Abel1994]

add that bad guy on fzero
Zero
Megaman
capcom ppl
more pokemon
toad
daisy for the hell of it
that girl in star fox
snake enemy...
toon zelda
zant

Basicly just bring 1-2 people off the game seies like Zelda,Mario... ect...

 

[Shorts]

So is anyone besides me getting in on the MvC action besides me? Looking at some of the characters and their playstyles, there's a chuck load of possibilities you can find in that game. If we can link Trish to Muddy Mole, Felicia to Sonic (to a certain extent), I wonder what else we can find.

Then there's Sentinel to Ridley as I've mentioned briefly.

Do you mind if we use movesets from say SF or other games? I haven't had the chance to nab a play at MvC3!

 

[Big-Cat]

Doesn't matter to me. It's really more for a source of inspiration for different playstyles. If you get the idea that Krystal plays like Seung Mina from Soul Calibur, be my guest.

 

[Thunder_slash]

add that bad guy on fzero

The "bad guy" is called Black Shadow(unless he refers to Samurai Goroh or anyone else), and he would be somerthing like a clone of Ganondorf due to it´s strength and possible movesets.

 

[Shorts]

Doesn't matter to me. It's really more for a source of inspiration for different playstyles. If you get the idea that Krystal plays like Seung Mina from Soul Calibur, be my guest.

What about Ganon having sword moves inspired by Nightmare's?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bf_vJGCcF9E&feature=related

I can picture Strikers daisy looking similar to cammy,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmnL7h2tyF4

Think of applying Darkrai's sort of shadoy being to this video instead of Anakaris and his mummey themed attacks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxDR4dYWz6c

Anyone ever thought of alternate movesets for characters? I was thinking a Zelda with Sword idea? Similar to Xiangua's moves?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcQLhvJAwKE

(Sorry for this being a MUGEN BUT) A Tetra inspired by Tessa from Red Earth? I was thinking aside from Tetra's obvious sword, the swift and jumpy moves, as well as the utulization of things like Canons?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27VKEAOgCtk

Lastly, I love Ingird from Capcom Fighting Evolution, and I was at first thinking of Vaati taking after her, but anyone have a better suggestion?

Pick one, and we can go further in-depth with it!

 

[BirthNote]

I'm 50/50 on the idea of alternate movesets, but I think that too many fighters rely on swords (or blades in Pit's case). That's kinda the most 'popular' weapon, but if you're trying to go with a theme for the Zelda series (floaters for Kirby's, etc) then whatever.

 

[Shorts]

I've been thinking about this strikers/Sports moveset lately, this is what I've come up with.

Side Smash - "Ball Save" Daisy does this dive kick, with a yellowish lighting around her leg. She would be scooting across the ground, not in mid-air.

Neutral Smash - "Kick Off" Daisy punts a soccerball diaginally into the air. I was thinking of this as being some sort of anti-air attack.

Up Smash - "Spike" As a third jump it would make decent air. The attack would set her up ultimately with her in the air, and the oppenent flying to the ground/off the edge. It would work Similar to C. Falcons USmash. But more air, less power, and the oppent would be aimed down diagonally. Inspired by "spiking" in volleyball. So picture that.

Down Smash - "Cheese, Strike, and Goal" A combo/counter type move where Daisy puts both hand near her hip. If you attack her she will do this combo of stunning you with her Camera, swinging a bat , and then swinging a hockey stick which would launch the oppenent. I read somehwere that in Daisy's Original game, she likes photography? Idk if it was true. And It doesn't have to be a counter type move. Think of Jigglypuff's sing, if you aren't close enough, you won't get hit and it won't work, leaving Jiggs completely open. We could make it like that instead?

Final Smash - "Daisy Sports Mix" Which ever way she is facing she will launch tons of sports stuff everywhere. Balls, Rackets, Bats, Sticks ect.

 

[libertyernie]

I would absolutely love to see Prince Fluff in as a character. His A moves would be very similar to Kirby, but his B moves would be:
up-B --> a spin attack like Link's, but with less damage and more horizontal control
side-B --> a long-range grab attack or some sort of whip
neutral B --> something awesome
down-B --> like Kirby's down-B, but he comes out of it immediately after hitting the ground (and cannot cancel in mid-air)

Also: made of yarn, or in 3D like everyone else?

 

[Moogi]

I would absolutely love to see Prince Fluff in as a character. His A moves would be very similar to Kirby, but his B moves would be:
up-B --> a spin attack like Link's, but with less damage and more horizontal control
side-B --> a long-range grab attack or some sort of whip
neutral B --> something awesome
down-B --> like Kirby's down-B, but he comes out of it immediately after hitting the ground (and cannot cancel in mid-air)

Also: made of yarn, or in 3D like everyone else?

Honestly, I'm all for yarn Prince Fluff in Smash, though people may argue with me that only Mr. Game and Watch should be 2D -.-

He's probably a one-shot character, but he could certainly have a unique moveset inspired from Epic Yarn (that or Sakurai makes him a Kirby clone)

 

[Shorts]

I'm 50/50 on the idea of alternate movesets, but I think that too many fighters rely on swords (or blades in Pit's case). That's kinda the most 'popular' weapon, but if you're trying to go with a theme for the Zelda series (floaters for Kirby's, etc) then whatever.

Well I wasn't trying to make that series all one "type" of moveset, just I thought some characters could easily get a new moveset. And since Sakurai would probably get ***** with hate mail for changing a character's moveset completely, I was thinking alternate movesets would be interesting. Zelda, Ganon, and Wario are a few that could get totally alternate moves. Wario could have a Wario Woods and Smooth Moves set. Zelda could have the three godesses moveset and a TP sword moveset. Ganon can keep his old moveset and get a totally new one as well. although I think Ganon and a few other characters should just get new movesets...period. coughcoughToonLinkcoughcough.

I read somehwere that MvC3 was made completely for fan-service. How do you think SSB4 would turn out if this was how the next game was tackled? Do you think America (or Europe/Aussie) would have any say in it? Would we see just japanese fan service?