Data Official MU thread : Breaking Clouds Limits.

[Tobi_Whatever]

I heard @ Shaya mention something about dodging bouncing fish from sheik with a PP dsmash.

Sounds very risky since Sheik can influence the BF distance. If Sheik always tries to hit with the most outer part of the hitbox it would be a great reliable punish. God I love dSmash.

 

[David Viran]

Sounds very risky since Sheik can influence the BF distance. If Sheik always tries to hit with the most outer part of the hitbox it would be a great reliable punish. God I love dSmash.

Bouncing fish kind of delicate and dsmash may be reactable but PP is not and they would have to guess in which direction you are going to PP.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Bouncing fish kind of delicate and dsmash may be reactable but PP is not and they would have to guess in which direction you are going to PP.

Well you can hardly PP in the BF's direction since you would just get hit. BF doesn't have a particularly high hit box as far as I know.

 

[David Viran]

Well you can hardly PP in the BF's direction since you would just get hit. BF doesn't have a particularly high hit box as far as I know.

There's no hitbox on sheiks body only her legs which it comes from the top down. Sheik will have to influence bouncing fish backwards to hit you out of PP as long as you don't do it to late.

 

[pichuthedk]

Did you mean approaching bouncing fish or like PP away from shiek so your just out of range of the move and catching her feet with the down smash.... well that sounds more likely now that i think about it.

 

[DeLux]

Advantages of trying to crouch and pp utilt a rising Diddy Fair over just shielding it and grabbing it?

Like if we crouch under monkey flip, I could see it having some merit. Not sure if we crouch under monkey flip since I haven't tried it since I just don't in general like being on the ground against diddy since bananas and my reaction time is ass.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Advantages of trying to crouch and pp utilt a rising Diddy Fair over just shielding it and grabbing it?

Like if we crouch under monkey flip, I could see it having some merit. Not sure if we crouch under monkey flip since I haven't tried it since I just don't in general like being on the ground against diddy since bananas and my reaction time is ***.

Just tested this, we can crouch under monkey flip. This could be quite useful honestly.

 

[David Viran]

Advantages of trying to crouch and pp utilt a rising Diddy Fair over just shielding it and grabbing it?

Like if we crouch under monkey flip, I could see it having some merit. Not sure if we crouch under monkey flip since I haven't tried it since I just don't in general like being on the ground against diddy since bananas and my reaction time is ***.

You have more options when crouching under fair other than grab.

 

[Shaya]

Up Smash is the best move in the game.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Up Smash is the best move in the game.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Spoiler

no

 

[Shaya]

I mean in terms of crouching/vertical options. It's surprisingly effective

 

[pichuthedk]

Well sorry I've been loafting I'll try to have yoshi up by tomorrow (tournament recovery cD johns) and edit in these last useful posts regarding diddy into the section.

 

[Vermillion]

Up Smash is the best move in the game.

Not really; it deals good damage but it's too predictable and only kills at high percentage. I think uptilt is generally better as it's hitbox has horizontal length whereas upsmash you can't use after something like a spotdodge on the ground.

Although : I do think it can be an effective bluff trick your opponent into uair chains. Probably it's best use imo (though I don't know if this really works at high levels)

 

[Vermillion]

Can we talk a little bit about Peach ? I've seen ZSS listed as her worst matchup on some website, but I disagree as I believe a well-played Peach is capable of pulling off a strong anti-air game that gives troubles to Samus' hyper offensive ways. What's more, she is immune to our Down-B while in state of auto-floating and when her umbrella is out, making it hard to land the kick. Do you have any advice for what ZSS should be going for in this match-up ?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Can we talk a little bit about Peach ? I've seen ZSS listed as her worst matchup on some website, but I disagree as I believe a well-played Peach is capable of pulling off a strong anti-air game that gives troubles to Samus' hyper offensive ways. What's more, she is immune to our Down-B while in state of auto-floating and when her umbrella is out, making it hard to land the kick. Do you have any advice for what ZSS should be going for in this match-up ?

Eww I just remember that good Peach player that completely beat me up on FG some weeks ago. 404, MU knowledge not found.
Well we are faster than she is and her range is lacking. I bet we could poke her pretty good. She has an easy time avoiding lasers and dSmashes though. I would be interested in some more info too.

 

[Shaya]

Her range isn't lacking at all.
her fair, bair, nair (not ness big but still big), fsmash are good range. Floating aerials with high priority (dairs) can give a lot of trouble when we're on the ground.

But that's where the fun ends.
Zair, laser, back air being long range as well, down-b kick turnip pulls or side-bs (!), nair is generally larger than most of her moves for it's speed, but it does get outranged by fair/fsmash, it's just that little bit faster + safer.
IMO I wouldn't think it's that bad considering how potent things like her dash attack and grab game are.

But eh, at the same time, if she can't reliably punish ZSS than she's in trouble.

 

[pichuthedk]

I faced a pretty legit peach at this tournament I went to Saturday, A little salty they had to say eff it and just do a bracket but hey I still like seeing that #7 placing in a 122 man bracket xD.

*Literally typing up Yoshi MU Right now and putting in that other info.

 

[pichuthedk]

MU rating 5.25/10 in Yoshis favor IMO

Yoshi
-Annoying
-Fast
-SUPER ARMOR
-Projectiles that COVER literally all possible Flip jump paths.
Pros for us
-Laser , Zair , and side B destroy eggs
-Flip jump to escape bad situations can come in handy.
-shield doesn't break from areial ground pounds with smart usage
-possible to gimp if you catch second jump off

Cons
-recoveries are generally forced to be lower because of his spike + egg pressure.
-His smashes can sometimes trick you into over commiting and eating fully charged ones.
-super armor shouldn't be challenged in the air you'll probably always lose the trade.
-Dair is BS can probably break your shield with rage.

Optimal Punishes
-When you shield a ground pound facing yoshi Downsmash OoS and boost kick.
-Missed Eggs can get you a free dash grab if the spacing is right
-whack him off stage if he tries to hit you without his second jump the trade is worth. you can probably gimp him if you get to him in time.


Ground Game
Yoshis ground game is kinda ridiculous in some aspects and then he has eggs which can cover and flip jump approach you make. sometimes when you get him into the air and expect to continue on him you can't because of his nair even sometimes from jab if hes above ground he'll probably get that nair. your tilts can also sometimes just miss him because of his attack animations, A lot of Yoshis frequent Dash attacks to keep you in the air or down throw -> up air combos. aside from their weird hitboxes on the ground you should be ok until you have to find away around egg camping.

Air Game
Yoshis go in the air alot for some reason to try and dair you or bair you since they are both multi hits and bair can actually kill you it's sometimes gonna require you to zair them back because if you do that they are gonna need to try ground approaches which paralyzer can trick them into doing something stupid, That or Eggs and more eggs.

Up air chains can generally work but you should probably be safe and chain them from d throw confirms , It's a pain but trust me you don't want to eat like 30% to a dair or yolo jump into his ground pound when your at kill %.

Moves to watch out for
Ground pound and your shield.
Yoshis second jump adds opportunities to gimp him
Yoshis egg lay can lead to a stock if your not ready to mash (or wait in cases where you should)

 

[David Viran]

We can out maneuver his egg pressure a lot of the time or PS. Also should we invite Yoshi mains?

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

We can out maneuver his egg pressure a lot of the time or PS. Also should we invite Yoshi mains?

They already invited us over for the same MU. We should read through that again.I think I lost my head somewhere lately.

I asked them to come over.

 

[pichuthedk]

Ness doesn't get jump back when you grab him and f throw him. Can someone confirm?
I did pummel 3 times to but meh.

 

[Scarlet Jile]

I find it really hard to kill ZSS, but easy to rack up damage on her. I don't find her projectile or down-B gimmicks that scary because of how fast Yoshi is in the air and how effectively eggs counter both those options.

It just gets a little hairy when we go in for the kill, because ZSS destroys the mid-range game. ZSS has an easier time with kill confirms but a harder time actually piling on the damage, so it evens out a bit. I reckon the matchup is pretty close to 50:50.

 

[Shaya]

It's probably 50:50-ish but at the same time ZSS has to respect so many of Yoshi's attacks that sometimes it feels disadvantaged.
You can't really beat eggs at all, I find this quite weird considering nearly every other character I have does. But eggs are... really easy to maneuver around, just don't bother trying to hit Yoshi through the egg.

Our nair is very good though.

 

[pichuthedk]

You should be able to zair both eggs and him in the right circumstances.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Hopefully not repeating some things, anyways similar to brawl kinda, ZSS destroys us if we're above her in the air, and we beat her if we're underneath or around the same distance except if we don't space our fair properly enough to avoid ZSS's nair.

With the loss of bair spam to shield pressure and wittle (or chip?) her percent up, our main way to rack up fast damage is basically Nair risking dair or tossing eggs which she can maneuver around even more easily with her mobility while if we attempt fair she can just zair us away or even nair.
Doing shorthop dairs puts us in risk of getting punished after the landing lag while full hop is basically going into the area she wants us to be for Uair chains to UpB since it can kill us around 30-65% before starting the combo (or just UpB only).
Then eggs, her run speed is fast enough to punish us (cause absolutely no way we do grounded egg tosses anymore) or even just jump over em with her downb to hit us while in the cooldown frames after our Upb.

Cause of Yoshi's body being medium sized, getting the UpB on him is easier than smaller characters of course, not dk bowser d3 size but still around there.
Despite knowing how to DI out of it I can only pull it off 2/5 times.

From ZSS being able to be more slippery than us and nair Uair/UpB shenanigans, being able to get her kill moves off easier if previous combo or with Dsmash paralzyer + UpB OoS but possibility of dying incredibly early if she makes a mistake and allows Yoshi to get a kill after we've been fishing for so long against her (like every character he has a problem finishing the stock off but especially harder for a character like ZSS) I'd say this is 50:50 too. Maybe 55:45 ZSS flavio once time goes on.

 

[pichuthedk]

Hopefully not repeating some things, anyways similar to brawl kinda, ZSS destroys us if we're above her in the air, and we beat her if we're underneath or around the same distance except if we don't space our fair properly enough to avoid ZSS's nair.

With the loss of bair spam to shield pressure and wittle (or chip?) her percent up, our main way to rack up fast damage is basically Nair risking dair or tossing eggs which she can maneuver around even more easily with her mobility while if we attempt fair she can just zair us away or even nair.
Doing shorthop dairs puts us in risk of getting punished after the landing lag while full hop is basically going into the area she wants us to be for Uair chains to UpB since it can kill us around 30-65% before starting the combo (or just UpB only).
Then eggs, her run speed is fast enough to punish us (cause absolutely no way we do grounded egg tosses anymore) or even just jump over em with her downb to hit us while in the cooldown frames after our Upb.

Cause of Yoshi's body being medium sized, getting the UpB on him is easier than smaller characters of course, not dk bowser d3 size but still around there.
Despite knowing how to DI out of it I can only pull it off 2/5 times.

From ZSS being able to be more slippery than us and nair Uair/UpB shenanigans, being able to get her kill moves off easier if previous combo or with Dsmash paralzyer + UpB OoS but possibility of dying incredibly early if she makes a mistake and allows Yoshi to get a kill after we've been fishing for so long against her (like every character he has a problem finishing the stock off but especially harder for a character like ZSS) I'd say this is 50:50 too. Maybe 55:45 ZSS flavio once time goes on.

I could have sworn eggs can cover all arcs her down b can travel but for the most part I can see where your coming from , surprised no mention on how yoshis smashes can trick her into over comitting/reaching for a stock only to have missed and eaten a fully charged fantasy at65% xD.

Also should dairing from yoshi be decent for shield pressure /breaks especially with rage?

I Had a no item fed amiibo yoshi Break my shield from full with dair.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Dair never breaks shields, it just wittles it down till he eventually shield pokes for either the last 3 2 hits (3-5%) or if the shield was already damaged 10-15%, which is much better than the 34%.
As for eating Usmashes from your downb, then that's a mistake on you guys for going towards a shielding yoshi.

 

[pichuthedk]

i have more of an issue with F-smash its like his body goes to another dimension or my own blood lust is killing me xD.

 

[DeLux]

Yoshi might win imo

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

I wanna say even. Whoever has the better neutral game will probably win. Neither of us really want to be above the other. We probably both have an easy time racking percent up (does zss have an easy time doing that against us? I feel like she does) Killing the other can usually tend to be a problem. You have a better ground to ground mid game, but eggs are typically safe to do. I think we have a better close range game tbh, but the way your mid range works we don't get to show it that much.

idunno man sounds even. I'd have to play it more to say anything else

 

[pichuthedk]

Even unless flip jump can spike you Out of DJ. XD

But yoshIs DJ is another can of worms I don't have an opener for ; (.

But @ CelestialMarauder~ is right yoshi definitely murders zss up close some of yoshis jab Shinanegans along with nairs If we get him up above us and try to start combing him.

Eggs give you breathing room when they are thrown so it lingers , zair from zss can beat but the timing and spacing changes based on how yoshi throws them.

 

[Professor Oats]

I don't think ZSS would beat Yoshi from a gimping standpoint, Yoshi's also very skilled at coming in high or covering his recovery with eggs, and then there's armor too. But in neutral I can see her beating us with really well-spaced nairs, just enough to keep safe and out of Yoshi's jabs and nair oos.

And if we get in shield a lot, Yoshis do like the shield, ZSS can get a lot of percent off a throw, and Yoshis going autopilot you can up B out of shield, but we have a command grab for those who love the shield too much....and so on and so forth. It seems to go back and forth pretty evenly in my mind, at least, but neither side can really relax all that much. So, yeah, my vote is for relatively even, but volatile.

 

[pichuthedk]

Stage is going to have to be the biggest factor aside from skill. At the lower -mid %s in the stocks a stage with a techable/wall jumpable wall gives zss a slight edge i feel like, Mainly because Zss can survive spikes at that % so long as she can get a foothold on the wall and recover Yoshi can not in most cases unless I'm underestimating that DJ + egg toss.

 

[pichuthedk]

pros
-possible early gimp from destroying pk thunder.
-ability to maneuver around his crazy hit boxes.
-can crawl under pk crash/crush what ever it's called.


Cons
-pk fire can not be jumped over with dash attack Like in brawl.
-grabs are more dangerous with rage as opposed to other characters.
-areial trades are not worth it.

WiP

If anyone has things to add post I'll put it up after one of my tourneys this weekend.

I literally suck at this MU or fail to understand the player using him @ DeLux .

 

[DeLux]

I think Ness wins by the slightest amount or it's super evenly.

The MU is extremely even up until a few select situations if the Ness is able to buffer Uair OOS in non Boost Kick kill percentages. I say that because if you whiff a BK you could eat a PKT2 if the Ness player is Shaky lol. Otherwise expect the bat which kills at stupid percents.

Everything else is such a fun RPS that if you can play mobility game you can avoid that losing situation.

PKT against a good Ness with it is kind of hard to work around in terms of free damage. Been meditating on how to fix that aspect of the MU but haven't come up with anything besides the obvious Hitbox through it / Dair past it / Flip Jump Kick Past it, etc.

If you don't kill early you will lose because his kill options when you are at high percents are stupid and you can't really grab him since he has so many aerial and grounded kill options.


Ness might be the best character at reversing those "almost combo" scenarios into situations where he gives you the business, so you better be ready to either live free and die hard or grind out the match like the savages of Brawl's past.

 

[BatShark]

How do you approach neutral game vs. Ness?

 

[DeLux]

Unleash the Krakken

If they are good, they can PS it and then Dash attack you for it. In order to combat that, I try to mix up when I try to unleash the krakken, but that leaves ZSS vulnerable to shield grab lol

Shooting Paralyzer and grabbing works unless they aren't dumb and hit the jump button / f roll for doing these lol


There's this super intense Yomi Loop that goes down if they shield you unleashing the krakken but don't get the dash attack in that makes things hype and where the MU is won and lost imo

 

[pichuthedk]

What about what I posted in shorts social turn away from Ness and back hit of nair to stuff his fairs?

 

[DeLux]

Why use back side of Nair when you can use frontside of nair?

 

[pichuthedk]

For his fair unless you are catching him before it comes out which feels absurdly fast then you won't have to worry about trading, I'm going to get friends help me to test out the spacing / recognizing the situations that he's going to try and use throw it out so I can be more prepared.