pichuthedk
Smash Lord
List of discussed characters
Greeninja & Diddy Kong on page 1
Shiek page 2 (near the bottom) http://smashboards.com/threads/official-mu-thread-pitching-with-ness.372321/page-2
Yoshi Page 4 (near top) http://smashboards.com/threads/official-mu-thread-pitching-with-ness.372321/page-4
Greninja
Greninja is fast and evasive because of his different postures which allow him to avoid decent amount of hits from our F-smash when it's not spaced properly.
MU rating: 5.5 for zss (Imo) we will discuss what we think it actually is.
Pros for us
-Our grabs are have more range and we get free ones from lasers.
-We are just as fast if not faster I feel like. (sorry all the ones I've played like try to abuse his rolls)
-Our lasers can cancel all his non max shurikens. (side b explosion destroys max sized)
-zss doesn't get gimped by hydro pump like most characters
-Amazing punish game against his side b/ Yolo dair
-Zss's Tilts dodge a lot of things close up
-He feels lighter then Zss
-Zair him when your both in the air and laugh
Cons
-Sometimes forced to recover low when being edge guarded it's possible for a max ranged shuriken to clip you out when you start or to down b into the big one which might = death.
-Surprise counters suck.
-While extremely unlikely if your smart hydro pump can still troll you if you keep recovering the same way.
-His Upsmash is a good anti air method if you over use down b for quick movements.
-You are forced to ban certain stages (or just FD ) due to the added problem of whether you can see his side b approaches or not.
Optimal Punishes-Down smash is guaranteed if he side-b's your shield and your facing him just don't charge it and get the fox trotted up b on him (if he manages to keep getting out of up b despite you aiming it in or out more (left/right) just grab-> down throw and follow up
-His Dair gives you the same thing if your in front of him when hes landing unless your shielding it otherwise jump and up air him OoS.
-If he side-b's Into the edge of the stage when recovering to stop your approach to the ledge because they are attempting to recover low with Hydropump then you can try for a Yolo run of bair /down b kick spike.
-If you see the commitment with his shuriken star charge you can close the distance with down-b and kick , Use this also if they are trying charging a smash to edgeguard you on the ledge.
-His early counter is a free down smash with timing.
Ground Game
Depending on the first couple of seconds you need to think of how you are going to deal with his shuriken spam,This will help you later on so you don't just try and wing it to avoid any fatal mistakes. Greninja can interrupt you from almost anywhere if your both on the ground so don't leave your self open.
Don't try to just recklessly throw out tilts when hes in range of them you need to use certain ones more then others because its easy to miss him randomly and be punished.
At the start of his stocks you can try to pressure him with lower F-tilts for trips and cancel stars with lasers at a distance that resides outside of his big star range. If your ever dashing to close distance he will more then likely star you (they add up so be wary.)
Jab is good I have not experienced much problems with jab3 hitting , When Greninja jabs us you should b trying to get down to the ground and in front of him because when he does the finisher you get a grab for free (just be patient).
up tilt/up smash him if he approaches from the air unless hes trying to bait you with his Nair AC.
Basically just remember this when your on the ground with him and if your ever hitting him be aware of where Greninja's body will go his crouch from hits is annoying try not to over commit.
Air GameI kinda feel like we body him with up air despite the fact that his Bair might interrupt our Bair when not timed we still have nair and zair to work with while he can be zoned out with lasers as well. Not much else to say his only 2 scary moves imo is his bair when you commit and his up air when he is below you.
His nair is kinda meh unless he tries to do grab/upsmash mix up's when hes landing.
Hitting with the back side of nair can really leave him little options while your in position to hit him if he air dodges it and ends up in front of you.
Moves to watch out for
-If you focus to much on trying to punish his actions with laggy moves like charged smashes can side b or turn that against you.
-His Dair /stage spike Bair if your tether happy try to use it wisely.
-UP smash is very good at wrecking us if we approach from the air at low %s he gets 2 if you aren't ready to vector properly.
-Hydro pump gimping is pretty much self explanatory save your jump even if you have to down b to live , Just be aware of how you can recover and when.
A tip for counter picks to stages where you can't follow his shadow If Greninja is not doing anything it probably isn't safe so be ready to react to it while not leaving yourself vulnerable for long (I.E retreating, jump approaches ,Rolls)
We can put whatever else in and such If there was anything I was incorrect about let me know I'll fix it
Greeninja & Diddy Kong on page 1
Shiek page 2 (near the bottom) http://smashboards.com/threads/official-mu-thread-pitching-with-ness.372321/page-2
Yoshi Page 4 (near top) http://smashboards.com/threads/official-mu-thread-pitching-with-ness.372321/page-4
Greninja
Greninja is fast and evasive because of his different postures which allow him to avoid decent amount of hits from our F-smash when it's not spaced properly.
MU rating: 5.5 for zss (Imo) we will discuss what we think it actually is.
Pros for us
-Our grabs are have more range and we get free ones from lasers.
-We are just as fast if not faster I feel like. (sorry all the ones I've played like try to abuse his rolls)
-Our lasers can cancel all his non max shurikens. (side b explosion destroys max sized)
-zss doesn't get gimped by hydro pump like most characters
-Amazing punish game against his side b/ Yolo dair
-Zss's Tilts dodge a lot of things close up
-He feels lighter then Zss
-Zair him when your both in the air and laugh
Cons
-Sometimes forced to recover low when being edge guarded it's possible for a max ranged shuriken to clip you out when you start or to down b into the big one which might = death.
-Surprise counters suck.
-While extremely unlikely if your smart hydro pump can still troll you if you keep recovering the same way.
-His Upsmash is a good anti air method if you over use down b for quick movements.
-You are forced to ban certain stages (or just FD ) due to the added problem of whether you can see his side b approaches or not.
Optimal Punishes-Down smash is guaranteed if he side-b's your shield and your facing him just don't charge it and get the fox trotted up b on him (if he manages to keep getting out of up b despite you aiming it in or out more (left/right) just grab-> down throw and follow up
-His Dair gives you the same thing if your in front of him when hes landing unless your shielding it otherwise jump and up air him OoS.
-If he side-b's Into the edge of the stage when recovering to stop your approach to the ledge because they are attempting to recover low with Hydropump then you can try for a Yolo run of bair /down b kick spike.
-If you see the commitment with his shuriken star charge you can close the distance with down-b and kick , Use this also if they are trying charging a smash to edgeguard you on the ledge.
-His early counter is a free down smash with timing.
Ground Game
Depending on the first couple of seconds you need to think of how you are going to deal with his shuriken spam,This will help you later on so you don't just try and wing it to avoid any fatal mistakes. Greninja can interrupt you from almost anywhere if your both on the ground so don't leave your self open.
Don't try to just recklessly throw out tilts when hes in range of them you need to use certain ones more then others because its easy to miss him randomly and be punished.
At the start of his stocks you can try to pressure him with lower F-tilts for trips and cancel stars with lasers at a distance that resides outside of his big star range. If your ever dashing to close distance he will more then likely star you (they add up so be wary.)
Jab is good I have not experienced much problems with jab3 hitting , When Greninja jabs us you should b trying to get down to the ground and in front of him because when he does the finisher you get a grab for free (just be patient).
up tilt/up smash him if he approaches from the air unless hes trying to bait you with his Nair AC.
Basically just remember this when your on the ground with him and if your ever hitting him be aware of where Greninja's body will go his crouch from hits is annoying try not to over commit.
Air GameI kinda feel like we body him with up air despite the fact that his Bair might interrupt our Bair when not timed we still have nair and zair to work with while he can be zoned out with lasers as well. Not much else to say his only 2 scary moves imo is his bair when you commit and his up air when he is below you.
His nair is kinda meh unless he tries to do grab/upsmash mix up's when hes landing.
Hitting with the back side of nair can really leave him little options while your in position to hit him if he air dodges it and ends up in front of you.
Moves to watch out for
-If you focus to much on trying to punish his actions with laggy moves like charged smashes can side b or turn that against you.
-His Dair /stage spike Bair if your tether happy try to use it wisely.
-UP smash is very good at wrecking us if we approach from the air at low %s he gets 2 if you aren't ready to vector properly.
-Hydro pump gimping is pretty much self explanatory save your jump even if you have to down b to live , Just be aware of how you can recover and when.
A tip for counter picks to stages where you can't follow his shadow If Greninja is not doing anything it probably isn't safe so be ready to react to it while not leaving yourself vulnerable for long (I.E retreating, jump approaches ,Rolls)
We can put whatever else in and such If there was anything I was incorrect about let me know I'll fix it
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) we will discuss what we think it actually is.