Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[kingPiano]

How the **** do you drop through platforms consistently? I've been playing Melee for 12 years now and I have NEVER EVER been able to drop through a platform consistently. I'll always crouch instead of dropping through :/

I'm willing to bet it's your controller(s), For me one of the first things to always go bad on my controllers is the down input on the analog. I don't know if it's because of all the FF'ing, shield dropping, or platform dropping, but the down input for me always loses it's integrity first (and it can be so gradual it's hard to notice).



.

 

[Rlagkrud]

At what knockback does a character yell?
By yelling I mean when they're sent flying and are usually dead. (Although sometimes perfect DI on DL can save them)

And on the hitback spreadsheet, how come so many angles are 361? Isn't that the just the equivalent of 1 degree?

Thanks!

 

[Bones0]

At what knockback does a character yell?
By yelling I mean when they're sent flying and are usually dead. (Although sometimes perfect DI on DL can save them)

And on the hitback spreadsheet, how come so many angles are 361? Isn't that the just the equivalent of 1 degree?

Thanks!

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Sakurai_angle

 

[Kadano]

Tl;dr: 361 = 45

 

[Funkermonster]

If I'm new to the game, would I be fine to pick up or as my main? Or will I struggle learning them and be off to a bad start ?Personally leaning more to Falco since I find him cooler, but I hear he's really tough to use .

 

[kingPiano]

If I'm new to the game, would I be fine to pick up or as my main? Or will I struggle learning them and be off to a bad start ?Personally leaning more to Falco since I find him cooler, but I hear he's really tough to use .

I'd say Marth is MUCH easier to get to a competitive level. Falco is a true glass canon; very explosive, powerful, tech heavy, and fast. But like Falcon and Fox, playing Falco you can often SD by doing one wrong move or input off stage, and your recovery game has to be highly practiced to survive.

 

[tauKhan]

Both Falco and Marth are fine, it doesn't really matter. I think falco is easier at low levels, because lasers are hard to deal with, and most players aren't good vs them.

 

[Meez]

Not sure if this is the best place to ask this.

I'm at college away from home now, and I couldn't bring my tower, so Dolphin is no longer available to me. I'm sick of relying on other's having setups to practice since that means I have to organize both our schedules to be able to play.

Basically I'm just wondering the best way/place to get Melee and a setup. Would I be better off grabbing a Wii or a GC? Where's a reliable place to buy Melee discs? I'm sure I could just search around for a little bit, and will continue to do so, but I figured having your opinions too would be a good idea.

 

[Dr. Miles]

Hey all. Dumb N00b rules question: For the second game of a best of 3 match, I (having won the first game on, say, Dream Land) ban, say, FD and my opponent chooses Battlefield; if I lose game two, am I allowed to pick FD myself for game three even though I banned it for game two? - so my opponent would have to ban it again if he didn't want me to pick it?

 

[Kadano]

Basically I'm just wondering the best way/place to get Melee and a setup. Would I be better off grabbing a Wii or a GC? Where's a reliable place to buy Melee discs? I'm sure I could just search around for a little bit, and will continue to do so, but I figured having your opinions too would be a good idea.

It depends on what kind of TV or monitor you want to use, how much money you are willing to spend and how important video quality is to you. If you just want to pay as little as possible, a softmodded Wii is probably your best choice.

 

[Meez]

It depends on what kind of TV or monitor you want to use, how much money you are willing to spend and how important video quality is to you. If you just want to pay as little as possible, a softmodded Wii is probably your best choice.

Thanks! I hadn't even thought of that. My Wii is already softmodded, it's just back home. I'll have to ask my family to mail it out to me.

I guess I missed it when I packed my other stuff.

 

[Roukiske]

I've always wondered, why is our current stage/character selection the way it is right now?

I don't want to compare other games or anything, but I was wondering why we don't use winner cannot change character and stage pick is always random (I do understand banning 1 stage because stages make a big difference). Don't games with walls such as Tekken or DoA always use random stage and winner cannot change char?

Not that I really have that much of a problem with it, I just wanted to know.

 

[Dolla Pills]

Hey all. Dumb N00b rules question: For the second game of a best of 3 match, I (having won the first game on, say, Dream Land) ban, say, FD and my opponent chooses Battlefield; if I lose game two, am I allowed to pick FD myself for game three even though I banned it for game two? - so my opponent would have to ban it again if he didn't want me to pick it?

I don't see why not.

 

[Bones0]

Hey all. Dumb N00b rules question: For the second game of a best of 3 match, I (having won the first game on, say, Dream Land) ban, say, FD and my opponent chooses Battlefield; if I lose game two, am I allowed to pick FD myself for game three even though I banned it for game two? - so my opponent would have to ban it again if he didn't want me to pick it?

It depends on the TO and specific wording of the ruleset. Most TOs will tend to say you aren't allowed to pick the stage you banned. I recommend asking the TO before the tournament, but a lot of people just copy and paste the Apex ruleset so they probably won't even understand what ambiguity you're talking about.

I've always wondered, why is our current stage/character selection the way it is right now?

I don't want to compare other games or anything, but I was wondering why we don't use winner cannot change character and stage pick is always random (I do understand banning 1 stage because stages make a big difference). Don't games with walls such as Tekken or DoA always use random stage and winner cannot change char?

Not that I really have that much of a problem with it, I just wanted to know.

It's designed the way it is because of how many stages used to be legal. Back when there was a much larger stage list, certain counterpick stages were considered notoriously hard for certain characters. As a result, rulesets evolved with the following traits:
- Stages are selected before characters during counterpicks
- Winners are allowed to change their character
- Stages are divided into starters and counterpicks

Random isn't (and shouldn't) be used in any game to decide the stage because it brings a random element into the set. Personally, I've always thought winners should be allowed to change characters as long as they change before their opponent even in other FGs where there aren't any stage differences.

 

[Dr. Miles]

... a lot of people just copy and paste the Apex ruleset so they probably won't even understand what ambiguity you're talking about.

As far as I can see, the ambiguity exists with the Apex ruleset as well (but perhaps that's what you meant).

A second question, about the following: "Gentleman’s Clause: Any stage may be played on if both players agree to it. This rule takes priority over DSR." ...

Does "any stage" include only Neutral and Counter-Pick stages or literally Every Melee stage?

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah, the Apex ruleset doesn't define whether you can pick a stage you have banned (Obviously it should be defined). The common consensus seems to be you can't pick stages you have banned, which is dumb imo.

Any stage in the game can be picked via gentlemans.

 

[Dr. Miles]

Yeah, the Apex ruleset doesn't define whether you can pick a stage you have banned (Obviously it should be defined). The common consensus seems to be you can't pick stages you have banned, which is dumb imo.

Any stage in the game can be picked via gentlemans.

Thanks for the quick reply!
I was wondering about the gentleman's clause mainly because while watching a lot of high-level tournament footage, I have never seen them play on an unusual stage. I'd have assumed that if the rules would allow it in theory, some pros would pick a weird stage every once in a while, but perhaps to them tourneys are very SRS BSNS. Then again, I also get that it makes sense to stick to sane stages since random accidents in important games can be very frustrating to the players as well as to the audience that wants to see a fair fight to really determine the better player.

 

[tauKhan]

Well the gentlemans rule needs agreement on both sides, so if you would gain a large advantage you will almost never be able to pick the stage. Besides which it's not really worth it to practice non-standard stages, if you can't reliably use them. And thirdly, most players actually dislike the unconventional stages, which is a big reason why so few stages are legal now.

 

[Bones0]

Thanks for the quick reply!
I was wondering about the gentleman's clause mainly because while watching a lot of high-level tournament footage, I have never seen them play on an unusual stage. I'd have assumed that if the rules would allow it in theory, some pros would pick a weird stage every once in a while, but perhaps to them tourneys are very SRS BSNS. Then again, I also get that it makes sense to stick to sane stages since random accidents in important games can be very frustrating to the players as well as to the audience that wants to see a fair fight to really determine the better player.

 

[DefyPls]

Question, when do I apply jabs? I've never really used jabs, mostly aerials, but I see some games where people jab quite a bit. Could anyone tell me where and when to apply them?

 

[Sempai]

Question, when do I apply jabs? I've never really used jabs, mostly aerials, but I see some games where people jab quite a bit. Could anyone tell me where and when to apply them?

Depends upon ur character. Fox jabs and marth jabs are very different.

In regards to a fox/Sheik jab, use it to set up to a kill move at higher %s.

Like the infamous jab --> up smash

 

[kingPiano]

Question, when do I apply jabs? I've never really used jabs, mostly aerials, but I see some games where people jab quite a bit. Could anyone tell me where and when to apply them?

For all characters jab is good for shield pressure since it's faster than the all too common shield grab from an opponent which takes 7 frames minimum (as well as most other OoS options, some are still unsafe though). Jab Jab Grab or Jab and fast tilts are usually safe. Samus is pretty effective using her first jab and f & d tilt in this manner.

C Falcon's third hit "The Gentlemen" is a wonderful combo starter into Knee and other attacks

Fox can link his into upsmash, Falco kind of can.

Jab resets. Kirby and Jigglypuff have great low KB and KBG jabs that can reset a knocked down opponent into very high percents. Extremely useful.

Jabs can also be used to interrupt approaches and edgeguard since they are so fast and sometimes have surprising range and priority like Marth's and Ganon's.

 

[DefyPls]

The only time I use jab is for Jab>D-smash, because I main Falco, for pressure I use multi-shines, and for jab-resets usually my laser does the work.

 

[Bones0]

The only time I use jab is for Jab>D-smash, because I main Falco, for pressure I use multi-shines, and for jab-resets usually my laser does the work.

Watch PP. He mainly uses jab at high %s where it can't be land canceled and sets up for a bair on floaties/tech chase on FFers.

 

[DefyPls]

Okay, another question, wavedash out of shield. I don't know why I have trouble with this, but whenever I try it I either roll or spotdodge. When do I hit the diagonal angle to do the wavedash, do I just have to move my thumb quickly? Do I hold diagonal the entire time and just hit X/Y and L/R?

 

[Sempai]

You can hold a direction as soon as you have started your jump (entered jumpsquat animation). If your getting a roll or spotdodge, you are picking a direction before you have jumped.

With wavedashing, just try jumping out of your shield and then air dodging towards the ground, then get it closer and closer to the ground until you get the timing.

 

[kingPiano]

Okay, another question, wavedash out of shield. I don't know why I have trouble with this, but whenever I try it I either roll or spotdodge. When do I hit the diagonal angle to do the wavedash, do I just have to move my thumb quickly? Do I hold diagonal the entire time and just hit X/Y and L/R?

The easiest and most fool proof way to do it is to lightly tilt the analog at the diagonal angle while still in shield. You will see your Shield angle slightly, then all you have to do is jump and fully depress the trigger you were already holding for an easy wave dash.

Once you get accustomed to that you can continue to use that method or slam it all at once after jumping first if you prefer.

 

[DefyPls]

Just found out that if I wavedash out of shield with Y, I get it more consistently. Thank you guys for being patient with me c:. If I have any more questions I hope you'll provide me with sold information.

 

[tauKhan]

The easiest and most fool proof way to do it is to lightly tilt the controller at the diagonal angle while still in shield. You will see your Shield DI'ing slightly, then all you have to do is jump and fully depress the trigger you were already holding for an easy wave dash.

Once you get accustomed to that you can continue to use that method or slam it all at once after jumping first if you prefer.

You shouldn't commit yourself to angling shield whenever you want to wd OoS, because it can expose you and you can get hit because of that. Instead just learn to input direction after jump. This is also useful if you want to wd backward OoS shine for example, because then you won't accidentally turn in shine.

Also in most cases you want to go for better angles than diagonal. And the term you're descibing is shield angling, not shield di, which refers to moving while being in shield hitlag. It's better to keep the terms separated so there's no chance for misunderstadings.

 

[kingPiano]

You shouldn't commit yourself to angling shield whenever you want to wd OoS, because it can expose you and you can get hit because of that. Instead just learn to input direction after jump. This is also useful if you want to wd backward OoS shine for example, because then you won't accidentally turn in shine.

Also in most cases you want to go for better angles than diagonal.

I'm talking about him first learning to get the hang of it. I never said that he'd want to sit there for an hour and have his shield angled then WD. You can tilt right before executing the WD OoS, I see even top players do this from time to time. Having your shield barely angle for 1-2 frames....not even worth mentioning.

You don't have to worry about turning around unless you continue to hold the direction after the WD finishes. That has nothing to do with what I said, either way what you imply could also happen with the method you just recommended as well. You seem to also not understand what the word diagonal means; it's any slanted line and could be any angle. It doesn't mean 45 degrees which I'm guessing you are mistaking it for.

 

[tauKhan]

I'm talking about him first learning to get the hang of it. I never said that he'd want to sit there for an hour and have his shield angled then WD. You can tilt right before executing the WD OoS, I see even top players do this from time to time. Having your shield barely angle for 1-2 frames....not even worth mentioning.

I think it's better to learn the correct way right off the bat, because it's easier than changing your way later. It's also not a hard concept to first jump, then move stick. I used to get stuck in shines a lot (still do sometimes), because I moved stick before jump. That's the main reason I learned to angle after jump. Whether or not a slight shield angle matters or not depends actually a lot on your character and shield size. But for example with fox it could matter, even if it's just 1 frame. I agree that it's not a big deal though, just a small optimization. Also with my method it's probably easier to wd OoS when you're angling your shield up.

I think I just got confused by your use of definite article:

tilt the analog at the diagonal angle

The only logical choice for the diagonal angle would be 45°. English is not my first language, so probably my mistake anyway .

 

[kingPiano]

I think it's better to learn the correct way right off the bat, because it's easier than changing your way later. It's also not a hard concept to first jump, then move stick. I used to get stuck in shines a lot (still do sometimes), because I moved stick before jump. That's the main reason I learned to angle after jump. Whether or not a slight shield angle matters or not depends actually a lot on your character and shield size. But for example with fox it could matter, even if it's just 1 frame. I agree that it's not a big deal though, just a small optimization. Also with my method it's probably easier to wd OoS when you're angling your shield up.

I think I just got confused by your use of definite article:The only logical choice for the diagonal angle would be 45°. English is not my first language, so probably my mistake anyway .

"Also with my method it's probably easier to wd OoS when you're angling your shield up."

Same amount of inputs and time, so no. I also already suggested you can input it after the jump once you understand the inputs involved (see my first post)

And yes it is quite clear now that English isn't your first language and perhaps logic isn't your strong suit either. The word "the" doesn't all of a sudden make the word diagonal mean 45 degrees. It only refers to the angle chosen and what DefyPls had originally asked "When do I hit the diagonal angle to do the wavedash, do I just have to move my thumb quickly?" In both his and my post it could mean any angle between 1 and 89 degrees (with respect to quandrant). You are assuming a whole lot and jumping to incorrect conclusions to make up for the fact that you thought diagonal meant 45 degree angle...which for some reason you are still trying really hard to argue about.

 

[Acorn]

I've seen people tech roll towards the ledge and like slide off and grab it instead of standing up after the tech roll. How is this done?

 

[Bones0]

"Also with my method it's probably easier to wd OoS when you're angling your shield up."

Same amount of inputs and time, so no. I also already suggested you can input it after the jump once you understand the inputs involved (see my first post)

And yes it is quite clear now that English isn't your first language and perhaps logic isn't your strong suit either. The word "the" doesn't all of a sudden make the word diagonal mean 45 degrees. It only refers to the angle chosen and what DefyPls had originally asked "When do I hit the diagonal angle to do the wavedash, do I just have to move my thumb quickly?" In both his and my post it could mean any angle between 1 and 89 degrees (with respect to quandrant). You are assuming a whole lot and jumping to incorrect conclusions to make up for the fact that you thought diagonal meant 45 degree angle...which for some reason you are still trying really hard to argue about.

Saying "THE diagonal" implies a single, specific angle. Your initial suggestion that he learn by angling his shield first was so terrible anyway idk why this is a point of contention. lol

 

[kingPiano]

Saying "THE diagonal" implies a single, specific angle. Your initial suggestion that he learn by angling his shield first was so terrible anyway idk why this is a point of contention. lol

Yes the diagonal angle that he originally was using, perhaps you missed it the first time I explained...here you go again.

Okay, another question, wavedash out of shield. I don't know why I have trouble with this, but whenever I try it I either roll or spotdodge. When do I hit the diagonal angle to do the wavedash, do I just have to move my thumb quickly? Do I hold diagonal the entire time and just hit X/Y and L/R?

A diagonal angle can be any angle that is not a right angle or flat, it literally means a slanted line. So let's say the diagonal angle DefyPls was originally talking about was like a shallow 20 degree angle. That is the diagonal angle I was referencing, whatever angle he was originally using. Apparently you don't know what the word means either? Or how "the" is used in the English language?....."lol"

Again the original methodology I was explaining was to help him visualize how to WD OoS initally, not to be incorporated in the same manner once he gets proficient with it.. It's actually not a terrible method either once you become fast with it. The shield doesn't even really move but a pixel or two and often it doesn't even move if you Tilt > Jump > Air dodge fast enough.

 

[Bones0]

Yes the diagonal angle that he originally was using, perhaps you missed it the first time I explained...here you go again.




A diagonal angle can be any angle that is not a right angle or flat, it literally means a slanted line. So let's say the diagonal angle DefyPls was originally talking about was like a shallow 20 degree angle. That is the diagonal angle I was referencing, whatever angle he was originally using. Apparently you don't know what the word means either? Or how "the" is used in the English language?....."lol"

Again the original methodology I was explaining was to help him visualize how to WD OoS initally, not to be incorporated in the same manner once he gets proficient with it.. It's actually not a terrible method either once you become fast with it. The shield doesn't even really move but a pixel or two and often it doesn't even move if you Tilt > Jump > Air dodge fast enough.

Nah, it's definitely terrible. You waste frames, open yourself up to getting poked, can potentially roll or spotdodge by accident, and like tauKhan pointed out, it will cause you to get stuck in shine all the time. Or you could just, you know, simply not move the stick until after you jump.

 

[DefyPls]

Okay, another question, shine out of shield. Does it work the same way as wavedash out of shield?

 

[tauKhan]

I've seen people tech roll towards the ledge and like slide off and grab it instead of standing up after the tech roll. How is this done?

It happens when you've still got kb momentum left after the tech roll ends, so that the kb moves you off afterwards. This is usually, and most effectively done by combo di'ing a hit with control stick, ASDI down with c-stick to tech roll on the ground.

Whenever you get hit, you get kb speed which is in some ways separate from your characters other velocity, and stacks upon it. That velocity decreases over time, I don't know if traction during the roll also decreases on top of it. However you can't fall off edge during roll, so that the roll makes you stick to the edge until the animation ends. But even though you stop at the edge for the remainder off the roll, you can still have kb speed left. Then if you have kb speed still left after the roll, you will travel off.

@ DefyPls Yeah, you hit jump, then move stick down and then b with the same timing you would airdodge when wding.

@ kingPiano I wasn't trying to argue about the angle thing on the second post, I even admitted it was probably my mistake, and stated the reason why I think I made it. The source was, as you pointed out, on the original post, which I didn't re-read before replying.

An advice for you: Don't get so personal in arguments over internet, because that's not a good basis for constructive conversation, and only makes you look bad. I found this remark rather hilarious,

and perhaps logic isn't your strong suit either.

because I'm actually logician .

 

[Dolla Pills]

Okay, another question, shine out of shield. Does it work the same way as wavedash out of shield?

Shine out of shield is basically a jump cancelled shine.

You can jump out of shield and then shine on the first airborne frame (maybe you have some leeway but I'm not sure the exact frames here), and the properties of shine will stop your vertical movement and you'll stay on the ground. If you shine too late you will just do a shine in midair but it'll still work.

The inputs are jump (y,x, or control stick or C stick up) and then immediately press down and b. Personally I prefer use tap jump for this but whatever works best for you.

Also to answer the question yes it is very similar to wavedashing out of shield.

EDIT:
When I said immediately press down and b I meant as soon as jump squat is over, which is like fourth frame for Fox and 6th or 7th for Falco (I don't know off the top of my head but it's easy to look up).

 

[kingPiano]

@ DefyPls Yeah, you hit jump, then move stick down and then b with the same timing you would airdodge when wding.

@ kingPiano I wasn't trying to argue about the angle thing on the second post, I even admitted it was probably my mistake, and stated the reason why I think I made it. The source was, as you pointed out, on the original post, which I didn't re-read before replying.

An advice for you: Don't get so personal in arguments over internet, because that's not a good basis for constructive conversation, and only makes you look bad. I found this remark rather hilarious, because I'm actually logician .

Well see now perhaps you should take your own advice, since you'd like to dole out personal advice I'll give you some if you don't mind.

1. Don't try and correct someone with misinformation and not expect to be corrected yourself. Now that makes you look bad, and is most definitely not a good base for constructive conversation.

2. Now forgive me if this one is harsh but if you are a "logician" then well I'm sorry for whoever actually may employ your services because...

That's categorically illogical and naive. If my comment made you laugh, that reply made me laugh even more since "and perhaps logic isn't your strong suit either." is pretty much the perfect relevant response to you not understanding the word diagonal or the very simple logic behind "the diagonal" which was referencing the OP's question.

3. Another piece of advice: perhaps correcting someone on their native language when you don't have a full understanding of that language isn't a wise choice. Especially when you are unsure of what a word actually means or it's context in the sentence.

4. Reading the actual post a comment is replying to before you try and preemptively correct someone is also pretty important. You at least have an excuse, English not being your first language. Bones0 really doesn't he just flat out had no idea what diagonal meant or how to understand the simple sentence (never stops him from jumping on the bandwagon though).


Now as far as tilting right before doing a WD OoS, I've never had an issue with it and I'm sure I could do it a 1000+ times while Bones or you are attacking my shield and watching with microscopes and you'd never be able to tell when I did the analog input a frame after or a frame before. My later point was that eventually it will blend over time when you get proficient and the inputs will become so fast you will be basically doing the angle and jump-air dodge simultaneously which was the second method I discussed and that you both are talking about. Perhaps I did not repeat that point enough.

I do not main Fox or Falco, but I do practice their tech skill often and play as them in friendlies to understand the MU. I'm not sure what both of your issues are with getting stuck in shines using the first method I described. I have never had this issue ever, but I'm open to hearing about it. We were talking about WD OoS so I imagine you are speaking about shine OoS into wavedash and multi waveshines? The most efficient way you can shine OoS is by C up, down+B, then x/y, and wave shine or attack if you want. Either of the two methods or the one I just mentioned don't cause any outstanding issues seeing as you have to start a shine OoS with jump > down + B anyways.

And if you are rolling or spot dodging on accident, well then you have bigger issues and you need to learn a bit more control and dexterity before trying these advanced techniques. The whole reason I explained the WD OoS in both ways was to help the OP figure out why he was spot dodging and rolling. It takes more control to use the first method and helps you learn the tipping point initially to trouble shoot, but I also suggested the method you both are talking about as well which is the more common approach (so you are in a way agreeing with me but at the same time disagreeing).