Q&A Official FAQ and QnA Thread - Ask Your Questions Here!

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

What are my best kill options as a Fox main vs Dr. Mario? Upthrow uair doesn't work and edgeguarding him is a pain for me I get stage spiked a lot by the up b

Are you going in for a shine spike? Would probably be safer to try and hold the edge and force him to up B onto the stage and then punish.

 

[Quot3]

Are you going in for a shine spike? Would probably be safer to try and hold the edge and force him to up B onto the stage and then punish.

Yeah, it usually happens when I go for a shine spike. Would ledge drop bair be effective as an edgeguarding tool agains't doc because of the invincibility right when I let go of the ledge?

 

[Varist]

Yeah, it usually happens when I go for a shine spike. Would ledge drop bair be effective as an edgeguarding tool agains't doc because of the invincibility right when I let go of the ledge?

I don't think you'll find the invincibility lasting you quite long enough to make a difference. If he's riding the stage just hold the edge and use the quick getup to edgehog. If he's going to land on the stage hold the edge anyway, waveland on and depending on how fast you were you can up smash, reverse nair, bair, anything. Doc's up b is really laggy.

 

[Bones0]

55% for max staling, actually. http://www.ssbwiki.com/Stale-move_negation#Melee_and_Brawl

And yes, in frame advantage calculations, attacks are assumed to hit “fresh” aka unstale.

Don't lasers stale from 3% to 1%? >.>

who the **** thought no bans in bo5 would be a good idea

Check out my ruleset. It incorporates bans, but makes it so you have to change it every game. While you won't be able to ban your least favorite stage for the entire set, you will never have to play on it more than once in a bo5 set. It also puts character selection before stage selection so if your opponent changes characters, your ban won't go to waste. You will get to pick your ban based on the matchup like you do for game 1.

 

[Kadano]

Don't lasers stale from 3% to 1%? >.>

3*0.55=1.65
Stored as 1.65 and displayed floored. So if your opponent has 0%, a max stale laser will increase his visible damage to 1%. The next laser will increase his actual damage to 3.3, displayed as 3%.

 

[Bones0]

3*0.55=1.65
Stored as 1.65 and displayed floored. So if your opponent has 0%, a max stale laser will increase his visible damage to 1%. The next laser will increase his actual damage to 3.3, displayed as 3%.

Oh, cool. I always wondered if staling worked differently because one time I noticed the percentage increase for consecutive lasers. KB is based on floored visible damage, not the actual damage, correct?

 

[Kadano]

No, knockback is calculated with actual damage.

 

[mecawe]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNNe3aR5bGc

This is for brawl, but are the DI, SDI, DSDI in brawl the same as melee so I can follow these videos to learn?

 

[Bones0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNNe3aR5bGc

This is for brawl, but are the DI, SDI, DSDI in brawl the same as melee so I can follow these videos to learn?

Everything they said in that video applies except these:
- You cannot airdodge, attack, or do anything else during Melee's histun
- B moves cannot be buffered during the transition from hitstun to tumble

The video didn't mention SDI at all though, and idk what you mean by DSDI.

 

[mecawe]

DSSDI for dual stick SDI, sorry I didn't wrote it well. It's a 4 videos tutorial, the fist one don't talk about it, it's the fourth.

 

[Bones0]

DSSDI for dual stick SDI, sorry I didn't wrote it well. It's a 4 videos tutorial, the fist one don't talk about it, it's the fourth.

Video 2:
- None of that applies to Melee obviously.

Video 3:
- You cannot SDI with the C-stick in Melee.
- Idk for sure if the SDI Multiplier effect is in Melee, but I've never heard anyone ever mention it so I doubt it. I am fairly certain all SDI and ASDI inputs have a set distance (ASDI is about 1/3rd the distance of SDI iirc).

Video 4:
- Virtually none applies to Melee. Only thing that seems the same is that you input SDI during hitlag.

 

[Brewski]

Where can I post or find posts about people who want to play??? I want to challenge people in my area, so is there a specific thread or something I can go to?????

 

[mecawe]

Where can I post or find posts about people who want to play??? I want to challenge people in my area, so is there a specific thread or something I can go to?????

There are a lot of facebook groups, there's also a thread listing them all here http://smashboards.com/threads/facebook-groups-links.325058/

 

[SAUS]

1) What are the advantages of shield dropping over just regluar dropping through platforms?
2) How do you shield drop?
3) Is shield dropping meant for being an out-of-shield option or is it faster or something than regular drop throuw platforms?
4) Can you SDI while you are in a shield? I think I heard somewhere that you can. Can it be used to get shield grabs that were impossible before?

Thanks

 

[Bones0]

1) What are the advantages of shield dropping over just regluar dropping through platforms?
2) How do you shield drop?
3) Is shield dropping meant for being an out-of-shield option or is it faster or something than regular drop throuw platforms?
4) Can you SDI while you are in a shield? I think I heard somewhere that you can. Can it be used to get shield grabs that were impossible before?

Thanks

1. You can drop through the platform without having to jump, WD, or unshield (takes about the same amount of time as a WD). You drop through faster than an Isai drop. You can buffer the shield drop during landing lag to drop through asap. You cannot buffer a regular drop through to my knowledge, and you may lose frames by walking for slightly too long before dropping through during Isai drops.

2. Watch all of the first 4 Melee videos: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dashdancedan+platforms&sm=3
You might also want to dig up Shai's thread on Shai dropping (should be pretty easy to Google for).

3. Shield dropping is meant for whatever you can find a use for. The most popular reasons to use it are speed, counterattacking opponents hitting you from below, escaping pressure from above, allowing you to DD on platforms while still being able to drop through, positioning yourself on the ground more accurately than if you could only run off the plat, and turning around before attacking.

4. Yes and yes.

 

[SAUS]

1. You can drop through the platform without having to jump, WD, or unshield (takes about the same amount of time as a WD). You drop through faster than an Isai drop. You can buffer the shield drop during landing lag to drop through asap. You cannot buffer a regular drop through to my knowledge, and you may lose frames by walking for slightly too long before dropping through during Isai drops.

2. Watch all of the first 4 Melee videos: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dashdancedan platforms&sm=3
You might also want to dig up Shai's thread on Shai dropping (should be pretty easy to Google for).

3. Shield dropping is meant for whatever you can find a use for. The most popular reasons to use it are speed, counterattacking opponents hitting you from below, escaping pressure from above, allowing you to DD on platforms while still being able to drop through, positioning yourself on the ground more accurately than if you could only run off the plat, and turning around before attacking.

4. Yes and yes.

Sweet. Thanks for explaining all that.

 

[SAUS]

Need help understanding light shielding. So, of this list, which ones are true and which ones are false:
1) Light shield degrades slower while you hold it.
2) Light shielding attacks causes your character to slide more.
3) Light shield takes more damage from attacks.
4) Light shielding attacks causes more shield stun (amount of time trapped in shield from the attack).

I'm pretty sure 1 and 2 are true, but I'm not sure about 3 and 4.

 

[Bones0]

Need help understanding light shielding. So, of this list, which ones are true and which ones are false:
1) Light shield degrades slower while you hold it.
2) Light shielding attacks causes your character to slide more.
3) Light shield takes more damage from attacks.
4) Light shielding attacks causes more shield stun (amount of time trapped in shield from the attack).

I'm pretty sure 1 and 2 are true, but I'm not sure about 3 and 4.

Those are all true. To clarify 1 and 3, shields have health. Light shielding loses health at a slower rate than hard shielding when you are standing still, but attacks will deal more damage to light shields. Just clarifying so you understand these two traits are connected.

Bonus power shield knowledge:
5. You don't lose any shield health when you PS an attack (physical or projectile).
6. You have the same amount of shield stun from physical attacks whether you PS or not.
7. You don't have any shield stun when you PS projectiles.
8. When you PS physical attacks, you slide as far as you would if you had done the lightest possible lightshield (which I believe is only possible with Z, not L/R).

 

[Jrod]

I need help timing L-cancels. When I'm practicing SHFFLs without an opponent I do it fine, but the pause that occurs when I hit someone makes me cancel too early. What can I do to fix this?

 

[Bones0]

I need help timing L-cancels. When I'm practicing SHFFLs without an opponent I do it fine, but the pause that occurs when I hit someone makes me cancel too early. What can I do to fix this?

Delay your L-cancel. Even if you're practicing without an opponent, try to time your L-cancel as late as possible. This way you will get used to timing it within the window that allows you to L-cancel whether your attack whiffs or not. You can practice SHFFLing with hitlag by putting a level 1 Bowser on handicap 9, putting your own handicap on 1, and just hit him with your SHFFL over and over like a punching bag.

Protip:
The pause that occurs when you hit someone is known as hitlag. Different attacks have different amounts of hitlag, so depending on what character and attack you are doing, the above description may be less or not helpful at all. For example, Ganon's down air does so much damage that the hitlag might make it extremely difficult to time an L-cancel to cover both a hit and whiff. This can also be the case with multi-hit moves like Yoshi's dair where you have multiple instances of hitlag so the amount of hitlag can vary greatly depending on whether you get a full hit, partial hit, or total whiff. Another factor that can come into play is how your character's hitboxes are contorted. Going back to Ganon's dair, you can see that there is a big difference between the beginning of the hit and the last frame you can hit. His legs extend far below him causing him to land earlier than if he had daired later on the ground.

Ideally, you should just be aware of whether your attack will connect before having to input the L-cancel. This is something that takes a ton of getting used to, so don't get too frustrated if you occasionally miss an L-cancel to a random spotdodge. Just stay focused on keeping your L-cancels as late as possible assuming you will whiff and as early as possible assuming you will hit.

One other thing I should mention is that you cannot FF during hitlag either. If you are missing your L-cancel because you are missing the FF, then you have to time your downward press after hitlag ends. That's another thing that makes multi-hit moves difficult to L-cancel.

 

[otter]

How does one ledge cancel (or whatever it's call when you avoid being spiked by someone on the stage while recovering)?

 

[mecawe]

I've seen the word -buffering - in the fox thread and it was about 3 frames with analog stick and no buffering with x/y. Does anyone know what is buffering? Thanks

 

[dRevan64]

How does one ledge cancel (or whatever it's call when you avoid being spiked by someone on the stage while recovering)?

Teching.
Smash DI towards the stage, hit a shoulder button to tech, do whatever input (side be for spacies, bair for marth, whatever) you want to follow up with.

I've seen the word -buffering - in the fox thread and it was about 3 frames with analog stick and no buffering with x/y. Does anyone know what is buffering? Thanks

Buffer is a frame period where you can input something and it'll come out on the first frame it's possible to actually happen. Example is that you can buffer a roll out of shield pressure by pressing the cstick a certain direction–even though you're in shieldstun, the minute you leave it the buffered roll will come out. Situations where you can buffer things are weird in this game though and I don't know all of them.

 

[WWGenesis]

I have a question regarding platform dropping.

1) As a Sheik main, what should I focus on learning? Both shai and shield dropping? Should I learn other platform dropping such as the PC drop or do these two types of drops already cover all the options available.

Thanks.

 

[Bones0]

How does one ledge cancel (or whatever it's call when you avoid being spiked by someone on the stage while recovering)?

That is called ledge teching. If you're familiar with teching on the stage, then just apply the same concept. The main difference is that when you're recovering, you have to DI towards the stage to make sure your character is deep enough into the stage that they can tech. As long as you hard press L/R right before you get hit and your character is close enough to the wall on the first frame of knockback, you will tech. Holding up as you tech will cause you to wall-tech-jump, which can be preferable depending on the situation. If you want to practice ledgeteching, you can go into Training Mode and throw motion sensors at the ledge. Then, jump over them to go off stage, and up-B back into the wall. Time your L-press right before you hit the motion sensor and you should just stick right to the wall for a split second (or wall jump if you held up/timed a Y press).

I have a question regarding platform dropping.

1) As a Sheik main, what should I focus on learning? Both shai and shield dropping? Should I learn other platform dropping such as the PC drop or do these two types of drops already cover all the options available.

Thanks.

I would consider shield/shai dropping to be pretty advanced techniques. The only platform technique you really need is Isai dropping (walking forward for a split second before inputting the drop through). Other movement options such as DDing and WDing are much more critical to your overall game.

If you still want to learn shield and shai dropping, I would recommend starting with shield dropping from a stand. The stick movement is a bit harder, but you can focus solely on the shield drop without having to worry about dashing beforehand. Once you get an idea of what part of your control stick actually produces the drop, you can apply that to your shai drop practice. I recommend using the top plat of Hyrule Temple for shai drop practice because you have plenty of platform to dash across, giving you more time to coordinate it with the drop.

 

[otter]

That is called ledge teching. If you're familiar with teching on the stage, then just apply the same concept. The main difference is that when you're recovering, you have to DI towards the stage to make sure your character is deep enough into the stage that they can tech. As long as you hard press L/R right before you get hit and your character is close enough to the wall on the first frame of knockback, you will tech. Holding up as you tech will cause you to wall-tech-jump, which can be preferable depending on the situation. If you want to practice ledgeteching, you can go into Training Mode and throw motion sensors at the ledge. Then, jump over them to go off stage, and up-B back into the wall. Time your L-press right before you hit the motion sensor and you should just stick right to the wall for a split second (or wall jump if you held up/timed a Y press).

Is this an instance where you need to smash DI? Meaning you have to let the stick go neutral before getting hit and then smash it during the spike, as opposed to just holding towards the stage the whole time, right?

 

[Xyzz]

Depends. The important thing is whether you make contact with the wall.

If you're playing a spaceanimal and curve up along the stage you only need ASDI. So you can just hold towards the stage, and get practically free techs... it's really just timing, and not particularily hard (:
If you're further away when the move hits you (say you try to outspace something but still get hit by it), you will quite possibly need one (or even multiple) instance(s) of SDI.

 

[Bones0]

Is this an instance where you need to smash DI? Meaning you have to let the stick go neutral before getting hit and then smash it during the spike, as opposed to just holding towards the stage the whole time, right?

SDI can be a critical factor if you aren't up along the wall, but you don't have to release the stick to neutral to SDI. If you are up-Bing as Marth but aren't as close to the stage as you think you need to be, you can roll your stick directly from up towards holding into the stage. In this picture below, the small dots signify the angle you have to pass when doing quarter-circle DI in order to get another SDI input. If you get good at rolling the stick, you can get multiple SDI inputs (I recommend actually holding your stick in place and moving your entire controller with your right hand). Usually multiple SDI inputs aren't necessary to tech, but the same process of rolling the stick across one of the dots can let you easily SDI after up-Bing.

Tbh, I don't think having to SDI comes up very often in practice. Usually when you are so far away that you feel you have to SDI an attack, they will just be grabbing the ledge to edgehog you anyway. If you are close enough to land on stage, you should be aiming your up-B into the wall to maximize your chance of getting the tech with simple ASDI (which is hard enough to focus on itself when you're first learning to ledgetech). I'm sure people also get SDI inputs incidentally simply because rolling the stick is the best way to get ASDI as well. So when I up-B, I roll the stick to the side asap, but I'm sure this ends up making me SDI towards the ledge and helping me out sometimes if the opponent happened to attack at that moment. You can't always know exactly when they will attack you, so that's why trying to SDI with anything other than rotational DI is risky (if you try to time an actual smash like a smash attack, you may input it too late and get no DI at all).

 

[enCouRaging Bear]

does anybody know where i can find frame, kbg, percent growth data on charging smashes and how the different stages of it work?

 

[Bones0]

does anybody know where i can find frame, kbg, percent growth data on charging smashes and how the different stages of it work?

The only frame data you'll find pertaining to smashes and charging them will be in the corresponding character hitbox thread (located in the character specific forums). It's nothing too detailed though. I think they just list which frame you have to release A/C-stick by in order for the attack to be considered totally uncharged.

 

[PCwizCube]

I have a question about how Dr Peepee dash dances with Math.

How does Dr PP do the dash dancing at at 18:45, 18:51, and 26:20 in this video? It's when he does a dash, and then seems to do another dash again in the same direction (he does it multiple times throughout the sets). I've seen DrPP say that he recommends people learn how to mix long dash dancing with very short dash dancing. Is he doing a VERY short dash dance back to the right (to the left for the one at 26:20) in those instances in the video? I slowed the video down to frame by frame (albeit 30fps) and Marth doesn't even turn to the other direction. Or is DrPP just renewing the dash dance by simply dashing, stopping, and dashing again? I've tried that but it doesn't look quiet the same (or maybe I'm doing it too slow). And if DrPP is actually doing a short dash back, how in the world does he do it so fast?

 

[Kadano]

If you don’t press strong forward after frames 15-19 of your dash (doing so would transition to Run), you can start another dash in either direction starting after frame 20 of your first dash. Which is precisely what Dr.PP did in your examples.

 

[PCwizCube]

If you don’t press strong forward after frames 15-19 of your dash (doing so would transition to Run), you can start another dash in either direction starting after frame 20 of your first dash. Which is precisely what Dr.PP did in your examples.

Okay. So it's the same as this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHU_33iaQg

 

[Bones0]

If you don’t press strong forward after frames 15-19 of your dash (doing so would transition to Run), you can start another dash in either direction starting after frame 20 of your first dash. Which is precisely what Dr.PP did in your examples.

What if you press weak forward on, for example, frame 18, then release it and repress on 20? Would that allow a DD, basically saying that small fox trots are easier than large ones?

 

[Kadano]

Okay. So it's the same as this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOHU_33iaQg

Yes.

What if you press weak forward on, for example, frame 18, then release it and repress on 20? Would that allow a DD, basically saying that small fox trots are easier than large ones?

Yes, but the tests I’ve run so far suggest that during late dash (~8-20 and beyond), completely neutral and weak forward make no difference. So pressing weak forward on frame 18 and releasing it again has no benefits over not pressing forward after frame 15 at all.

 

[PCwizCube]

Yes.

Thanks! I wonder why more people don't use it? It seems very useful.

 

[Bones0]

Yes.

Yes, but the tests I’ve run so far suggest that during late dash (~8-20 and beyond), completely neutral and weak forward make no difference. So pressing weak forward on frame 18 and releasing it again has no benefits over not pressing forward after frame 15 at all.

Sorry, now I'm confused...
1. You can't dash a second time until frame 20 no matter how hard you press.
2. Doing anything other than a hard press before frame 20 will do nothing.
3. Doing a hard press before 20 will cause you to run.

Is that all correct? I thought if you fox trotted in the same direction too quickly, you would go into that weird run/stop state where your character stumbles.

 

[Kadano]

1. Not in the same direction, yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes. Also if you keep holding weak forward during 15-19 (or longer) and then on 20 (or later) do the strong forward.

Consecutive dashes and runs seem to introduce little acceleration, so your dashing / running speed mostly depends on how much momentum you were able to retain from your previous motion. Both another dash and a run can look like you were kind of stumbling, so it’s hard for me to tell what kind of movement you refer to. I guess it’s the run, as the run speed depends on the current forward momentum, which is why weird stuff like stickywalking is possible (note how Marth is stuck in Run 1 for many frames due to his forward momentum still being negative).

 

[WWGenesis]

Thanks for the response Bones. I'll get at learning how to properly and consistently Isai drop.

I have a few new questions:
1) Any alternatives to dealing with Falco/Fox SHFFL shine pressure besides roll OOS? I'm thinking that I can catch them off guard by doing a wavedash OOS into grabbing them, but Its always as if I get read and aren't able to punish them for anything.
2) I get repeatedly juggled by the spacies (whether its Falco with his dair shine or fox with his up tilts, back airs, up grabs, and so on). I try to DL but this hasn't been succeeding. Is there a certain way to specifically DL to escape the pressure / any other alternatives I should focus on?
3) This is more of a note in regards to my mentality in the matches I play that I require assistance on. Whenever I play Spacies, I feel as though I get outspeeded (like when I go for my JC grabs that usually do not land). From there, I feel threatened to shield (causing me to be juggled by their shine combos and what not), or shield too much (causing them to shine-grab me). How do I overcome this mentality and begin punishing them brutally as Sheik? (More of a add-on to question 2 I'd say).

Thanks.

 

[Varist]

Thanks for the response Bones. I'll get at learning how to properly and consistently Isai drop.

I have a few new questions:
1) Any alternatives to dealing with Falco/Fox SHFFL shine pressure besides roll OOS? I'm thinking that I can catch them off guard by doing a wavedash OOS into grabbing them, but Its always as if I get read and aren't able to punish them for anything.
2) I get repeatedly juggled by the spacies (whether its Falco with his dair shine or fox with his up tilts, back airs, up grabs, and so on). I try to DL but this hasn't been succeeding. Is there a certain way to specifically DL to escape the pressure / any other alternatives I should focus on?
3) This is more of a note in regards to my mentality in the matches I play that I require assistance on. Whenever I play Spacies, I feel as though I get outspeeded (like when I go for my JC grabs that usually do not land). From there, I feel threatened to shield (causing me to be juggled by their shine combos and what not), or shield too much (causing them to shine-grab me). How do I overcome this mentality and begin punishing them brutally as Sheik? (More of a add-on to question 2 I'd say).

Thanks.

Research shield pleasure and shield pleasure timings. Learn what they're doing and when you can grab. Shieldgrab them over and over until they change their timing. They won't pleasure your shield anymore after that.