Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[fkacyan]

Of course SL! Stating facts about our mains makes us fanboys! Duh.
You're like the only one arguing anyway, I gave up a while ago along with all the other mains because we're considered sub-human somehow, and our posts are devoid of logic despite stating facts so are disregarded.
And a Sonic main having trouble killing ZSS at 150+%? Fail.
An U-throw kills at under 150% iirc. So do a lot of Sonic's moves.

Here's a fact for you:

25 Sonic (3 top8, 2 wins) - 24.8333333 - 24

And which tourneys were it that he placed in?

HOBO5: 5th by Mr. 3000 (Southwest)
Summer Slugger 1: 7th by IzzyInfamous, also played Zelda (Southwest)
CollosalCon7: 1st by Monta, mained Marth and Mario before Sonic (Midwest)
Area 51: 1st by K.I.D. Goggles, 16 entrant tourney (Northeast)
Area 51: 5th by Goggles, 20 entrant tourney (Northeast)

So, um, yeah, I'm not too sure why you think your 'facts' prove anything about this character. In the recent metagame, he's only been placing in small tourneys or often is an alt or played evenly alongside another character.

So, despite what you claim about you character, you're just like the Yoshi mains in that you're ignoring the fact that reality does not back up what you're saying.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Here's a fact for you:

25 Sonic (3 top8, 2 wins) - 24.8333333 - 24

And which tourneys were it that he placed in?

HOBO5: 5th by Mr. 3000 (Southwest)
Summer Slugger 1: 7th by IzzyInfamous, also played Zelda (Southwest)
CollosalCon7: 1st by Monta, mained Marth and Mario before Sonic (Midwest)
Area 51: 1st by K.I.D. Goggles, 16 entrant tourney (Northeast)
Area 51: 5th by Goggles, 20 entrant tourney (Northeast)

So, um, yeah, I'm not too sure why you think your 'facts' prove anything about this character. In the recent metagame, he's only been placing in small tourneys or often is an alt or played evenly alongside another character.

So, despite what you claim about you character, you're just like the Yoshi mains in that you're ignoring the fact that reality does not back up what you're saying.

Frankly if you are saying the same for Sonic why are you not saying the same for many other characters as well?
You have a god number of characters below Sonic that are consistently placed in mid tier and yet why are you not disregarding those results?

Look below.

24 Ike (6 top8, 3 top4, 1 top2) - 29.09375 - 25
25 Sonic (3 top8, 2 wins) - 24.8333333 - 24

E Rank <Never Used>
26 Luigi (3 top8, 1 top2, 1 win) - 19 - 29
27 Samus (3 top8, 1 top4) - 17.25 - 26
28 Pokémon Trainer (3 top8, 1 win) - 17.1875 - 27
29 Bowser (1 top8, 1 top2) - 16.25 - 28
30 Lucas (5 top8, 2 top4) - 15.5625 - 31

31 Mario (5 top8, 1 win) - 10.8958333 - 30

32 Jigglypuff (1 top8, 1 top4) - 7
33 Yoshi (5 top8, 1 top4) - 5.71875

34 Sheik/Zelda (2 top8, 1 top4) - 4.53125
35 Captain Falcon (3 top8) - 2.965625 - 36
36 Link (1 top4) - 2 - 35
37 Ganondorf (1 top8) - 0.71875

Note Yoshi's placement.
not much especially since he is an entire rank below Sonic. SO yes one can say yoshi mains are fighting a losing battle.


Now to further continue on the tourney results.
Yoshi is currently in the top 5 worst tourney outtings.
Far more saying yoshi is not deserving to be put up than Sonic.

Or what about Bowser, Lucas, PT and Sheik?
THose are characters consistently placed above Sonic tier list wise yet they have much much less being said for them.


its rather hypocritical if we are to disregard Sonic's results and yet consistently place Sheik in mid tier when she is far from doing as well as Sonic has done.
Or Bowser, Lucas, PT.

Why isn't Shik being placed in low tier?
Aren't the Sheik mainers not doing the same thing as Yoshi mainers?

Yet I have yet to see anyone stick Sheik in low tier or criticize anyone placing Sheik in mid tier despite the fact she is doing horribly in the tournaments.

In fact you mentioned how Sonic's results should be taken lesser because he hasn't won many large tournaments.

Can the same be said fr any characters below B rank?
Hell the only ones that are consistently winning small and large tourneys are the characters in A rank.

Ion short the argument about him winning small tournaments is not a valid one, since the same can be said for anyone in C rank and below.
Especially considering those small tourneys far outnumber those of the large ones.

In short, the argument for Sonic remaining in the bottom of low tier holds as much value as a bag full of ****.

Since when did Smashboards start to act so foolishly?

Either stick all those characters below Sonic lower than him or cease placing him in low tier.
Otherwise its rather hypocritical to continuously do so.

The only time i shall accept Sonic being so low in the tier lists is when Sheik is all the way in the bottom of the tiers.

 

[ROOOOY!]

My facts? I'm pretty sure I haven't mentioned anything about tourney standings. It's your fact >_<
And those tourney standing are better than a lot of other characters anyway (more than about a dozen characters.)
What am I claiming about my character? I never originally said anything. I'm not, as you put it, one of the 'Yoshi mainer' types, I haven't claimed that Sonic's mid/high/michelin tier. Don't put words into my mouth.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Roy he was speaking to me.
And I already addressed him.

 

[fkacyan]

Frankly if you are saying the same for Sonic why are you not saying the same for many other characters as well?
You have a god number of characters below Sonic that are consistently placed in mid tier and yet why are you not disregarding those results?

I wasn't talking about the other characters in mid. I was talking about Sonic. Stop using diverion tactics in the debate kthx.

My facts? I'm pretty sure I haven't mentioned anything about tourney standings. It's your fact >_<

I wasn't saying that tourneys were your facts, I'm saying your facts don't match the reality of results.

And those tourney standing are better than a lot of other characters anyway (more than about a dozen characters.)

Which makes them as bad / worse...? We're not talking about other characters here. Don't change the subject of discussion to "Sonic is better than X Y and Z" from "Sonic is a bad character."

What am I claiming about my character? I never originally said anything. I'm not, as you put it, one of the 'Yoshi mainer' types, I haven't claimed that Sonic's mid/high/michelin tier. Don't put words into my mouth.

It's pretty easy to infer from your posts that you disagree with people putting him below mid. I'm not going to go back and quote them for you; read them yourself.

Sonic does not have reliable killing moves. Sonic does not have priority over the majority of moves from characters you're likely going to see in high levels of play. What Sonic does have is speed and the ability to punish the smallest amount of lag; however, this is Brawl, and that punishment doesn't lead to much with this character. Results reflect this. He is low tier.

 

[Grunt]

Why isn't Shik being placed in low tier?

Because Shik is top tier.
Right below Shek.

 

[Tim_The_Enchanter]

Because Shik is top tier.
Right below Shek.

Shaq is top tier.

 

[Grunt]

Hey guise

TOPPER:
Shak, Shek, Shik
TOP:
Snake, MK
BOTTOM:
Everyone else

amirite?

 

[ROOOOY!]

SL, he quoted me so I presumed he was addressing me, though apparently not so sorry.
And Thio, the only thing I've said (I've checked the last few pages) is that putting Sonic bottom or lower low tier is ignorant. I think that Sonic is low tier. High low tier, but low tier none the less. I don't believe I've insinuated that I think Sonic is mid tier at all.

 

[fkacyan]

Hey guise

TOPPER:
Shak, Shek, Shik
TOP:
Snake, MK
BOTTOM:
Everyone else

amirite?

Where the hell is Captain Falcon in TOPPER?!

That tier list is flawed!

SL, he quoted me so I presumed he was addressing me, though apparently not so sorry.
And Thio, the only thing I've said (I've checked the last few pages) is that putting Sonic bottom or lower low tier is ignorant. I think that Sonic is low tier. High low tier, but low tier none the less. I don't believe I've insinuated that I think Sonic is mid tier at all.

Not what I've read, but if we're in agreement, k.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Sonic does not have priority over the majority of moves from characters you're likely going to see in high levels of play.

Actually, Sonic's uair has very good priority and beats out a lot of characters down airs, either by out speeding them or (more suprizingly), outranging them.

What Sonic does have is speed and the ability to punish the smallest amount of lag; however, this is Brawl, and that punishment doesn't lead to much with this character.

Sonic's combos on average do about 20-30%. That's quite a bit of punishment for a single mistake. It also regularly will put the opponent in a bad position (above him), and lead to uair juggling.


As for reliable kill moves, it's true that his kill moves are pretty slow. Bair, F-smash, and downsmash all have considerable startup lag. Sonic will not be able to land kill moves if he just randomly throws them out like other characters, but what he can do is take advantage of the range on his F-smash and Bair to beat other attacks. Uair gimping is also quite effective on some of the lighter characters (especially on low-cieling stages).

So no, he's not really good at outright killing opponents, but it's certainly not something that you'll be able to just rule out when talking about him, as it's still a viable option. And Sonic is relatively good at gimping as well, thanks to how far he can safely go out to edgeguard.

Results reflect this. He is low tier.

This I'll agree with. Sonic does have some strong points, and he is very often underated (seriously, people still put him in bottom tier), but he really doesn't have what it takes as a tournament character. He has trouble against nearly all of the high tier characters and barely breaks even with the mid tiers.

Oh well. He's still really fun to play as.

 

[Teh Uber Parachuter]

I wasn't talking about the other characters in mid. I was talking about Sonic. Stop using diverion tactics in the debate kthx.

He was not using diversionary tactics. The entire premise of a tier list is that every movement within the list is relative. In order for Sonic to be considered higher, someone or many people have to move down. Therefore, any debate about someone's position in a tier list is relative to the other characters in the game. With that in mind, he raises a perfectly good point that everything you have said against Sonic could be applied to other characters above him to move them down.

I think that everyone should keep in mind that when discussing the tiers, that any stats that you bring up should be weighted against the rest of the cast. That's how you place someone in an ordered list, right?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I wasn't talking about the other characters in mid. I was talking about Sonic. Stop using diverion tactics in the debate kthx.

Obviously if you did not understand the point in my mentioning the other mid tier characters you need to read the paragraph again kthx.
Now re-read what I stated and then actually address those points please.

I wasn't saying that tourneys were your facts, I'm saying your facts don't match the reality of results.

Except that the facts concerning many other characters would be similar.
My point is that placing Sonic extremely low when there are characters whose results have a much stronger case is rather ignorant.

Which makes them as bad / worse...? We're not talking about other characters here. Don't change the subject of discussion to "Sonic is better than X Y and Z" from "Sonic is a bad character."

Who knows?

Maybe she cannot combo as well as thought.
Maybe she has an extreme difficulty in killing.
Maybe she just sucks.
Maybe she just isn't as good as people think of her. Many other variables.

So if Sonic is doing better than Sheik is then that means there is something going on and so placing Sheik up there makes little sense if she is doing worse than a character who is consistently being placed in the top 10 worse characters.

It's pretty easy to infer from your posts that you disagree with people putting him below mid. I'm not going to go back and quote them for you; read them yourself.

Actually that would be me and I actually think he is low low mid tier.
Top of low most likely. But thats another story.

Sonic does not have reliable killing moves. Sonic does not have priority over the majority of moves from characters you're likely going to see in high levels of play.
What Sonic does have is speed and the ability to punish the smallest amount of lag; however, this is Brawl, and that punishment doesn't lead to much with this character. Results reflect this. He is low tier.

How do the tourneyresults reflect this at all?
If we have character like Sheik who are deemed mid tier since Sheik can kill despite having the lack of kill moves, then why should Sonic not be bumped up.
Considering he is 24th out of twenty nine and his tier placement is often that of 35 or 34 of 39 it tends to be an issue. Thats a good number of places off.

However my point is that its very hypocritical if we place characters like Sheik in mid tier despite the fact that the tourney results are showing otherwise.

my point is that its very hypocritical to say, Sonic should be low tier since he is 24th, but that a dozen or more characters whom are inferior results wise should be higher.

I don't really care about the tier placement, rather that the tier placement reflects the tourney results.
Since when he is being placed 12 spots below what he is doing in tournament rankings, there is an issue.

 

[Browny]

I wasn't saying that tourneys were your facts, I'm saying your facts don't match the reality of results.

Sonic has 5 tourney wins, possibly 6 if Puffball has let ankoku know of his recent win. just because the rankings list has him at 2 wins doesnt mean thats his total. you dont think Snake has only won 16... its more like 40 or something lol.

the difference is while sonic, snake and the rest of the higher tier characters have had a reasonable amount of success in the past, all those in mid or lower have practically none. do some research into the past tourney results and youll see sonic has more wins than the likes of Pit, Olimar, Zelda and many other characters often chucked in high tier. I find the whole argument of 'we were learning brawl back then' a load of ****, since its not like people had to re-learn marth, falco and MK is extremely easy to learn. Sonic, probably more so than any other character besides PT would have been extremely hard to master at such an early stage, yet he seemed to win a fair bit. And its not like people didnt know MK and snake were the best back then... the month of imported japan brawl was enough to figure that out

 

[fkacyan]

He was not using diversionary tactics. The entire premise of a tier list is that every movement within the list is relative. In order for Sonic to be considered higher, someone or many people have to move down. Therefore, any debate about someone's position in a tier list is relative to the other characters in the game. With that in mind, he raises a perfectly good point that everything you have said against Sonic could be applied to other characters above him to move them down.

I think that everyone should keep in mind that when discussing the tiers, that any stats that you bring up should be weighted against the rest of the cast. That's how you place someone in an ordered list, right?

Wrong. Me putting Sonic in Low has nothing to do with the other characters.

If the other characters are worse than Sonic, and Sonic is in low, obviously said characters are all in low or bottom.

Each tier's size is not predetermined, which makes your logic moot.

Except that the facts concerning many other characters would be similar.
My point is that placing Sonic extremely low when there are characters whose results have a much stronger case is rather ignorant

BUT, and I cannot stress this enough, they are not the subject of the debate as to Sonic's tier placement.

I don't care about the placement of other characters here. I'm only talking about Sonic. Stop bringing up the other characters.

EDIT:

the difference is while sonic, snake and the rest of the higher tier characters have had a reasonable amount of success in the past, all those in mid or lower have practically none. do some research into the past tourney results and youll see sonic has more wins than the likes of Pit, Olimar, Zelda and many other characters often chucked in high tier. I find the whole argument of 'we were learning brawl back then' a load of ****, since its not like people had to re-learn marth, falco and MK is extremely easy to learn. Sonic, probably more so than any other character besides PT would have been extremely hard to master at such an early stage, yet he seemed to win a fair bit. And its not like people didnt know MK and snake were the best back then... the month of imported japan brawl was enough to figure that out

He was lower tier in the initial rankings list before the current 2-month cutoff than he is now.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Wrong. Me putting Sonic in Low has nothing to do with the other characters.

Why not?
Tier placements are the result of how good the characters are in comparison to the others. Saying they have nothing t do with each other is rather untrue.
If Sonic goes up someone has to go down.

If the other characters are worse than Sonic, and Sonic is in low, obviously said characters are all in low or bottom.

Each tier's size is not predetermined, which makes your logic moot.

No size has nothing to do with it and obviusly I said nothing about i so I do not understand where you draw such an idea.
As I said if Sonic is 24 but is consistently being placed so low. Then he should be moved up and those characters down.

BUT, and I cannot stress this enough, they are not the subject of the debate as to Sonic's tier placement.

I don't care about the placement of other characters here. I'm only talking about Sonic. Stop bringing up the other characters.

Thats a pity you do not care because they do matter on the debate.
Their placement influences his placement.
Someone has to move up and someone has to move down that is how it goes.
If the tourney results are not being reflected in the tier lists then it means characters need to be moved about.
Whether or not they go to a different tier is unimportant.


The other characters matter because they reflect on Sonic;s placement. If those otehr characters above him despite doing worse than him tourney wise, then they should be below him and him above.

My argument is that he should not be as low as people are placing him because he is doing better in the tournaments than 12 or so other characters.
if he goes to mid tier he goes to mid tier, if it means more characters go to low tier then more characters go to low tier.

Either way unless Sonic's tourney replacements show him to be in the 30's tourney rank wise, he shouldn't be number 35 of 29 on the tier list.

 

[Teh Uber Parachuter]

Wrong. Me putting Sonic in Low has nothing to do with the other characters.

If the other characters are worse than Sonic, and Sonic is in low, obviously said characters are all in low or bottom.

Each tier's size is not predetermined, which makes your logic moot.



BUT, and I cannot stress this enough, they are not the subject of the debate as to Sonic's tier placement.

I don't care about the placement of other characters here. I'm only talking about Sonic. Stop bringing up the other characters.

EDIT:


He was lower tier in the initial rankings list before the current 2-month cutoff than he is now.

What part of this are you not getting? To put Sonic somewhere in the tier list, he has to be above and below a character. To move him up in the list would mean moving someone down. That has nothing to do with the size of the tier, it means that Sonic's position relative to the other characters has changed. The placement of any character is relative to every other character, that's the entire point of the tier list! Therefore, any discussion in a tier discussion has to be done with the other characters in mind. It is not a black and white argument.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Wrong. Me putting Sonic in Low has nothing to do with the other characters.

He was lower tier in the initial rankings list before the current 2-month cutoff than he is now.

...It has EVERYTHING to do with other characters. Where other characters place in tournies influences Sonic's placement. How you can't see that baffles me.

And by the way that 2 month cut off thing is wrong. I took daily notice of it, and when the list started afresh for summer, Sonic was 22nd. Having 3 wins, 1 top 4, and 2 top 8's iirc.

 

[Adapt]

See... even if sonic was the 10th best character, he could still be in low tier.

Which tier a character is in does have a relation to how many characters are above/below him, but it doesn't have to be a strong relation

Just because some character is better than 1/2 the characters in the game doesn't make him mid tier.

 

[fkacyan]

...It has EVERYTHING to do with other characters. Where other characters place in tournies influences Sonic's placement. How you can't see that baffles me.

... In relation to those characters, yes, which I agknowledged. Yet somehow we have people thinking that just because he's above those characters moves him to mid, where it just means he's higher in low tier.

 

[ShadowLink84]

See... even if sonic was the 10th best character, he could still be in low tier.

Which tier a character is in does have a relation to how many characters are above/below him, but it doesn't have to be a strong relation

Just because some character is better than 1/2 the characters in the game doesn't make him mid tier.

Ehh I would be iffy to saysuch a thing.

For one such a thing would be possible if the game was much more balanced.
Similar to GGXXAC where characters could go anywhere tourney rank wise so the tier list often reflects differently from it.

However in Smash bros this is not the case.

If Sonic is consistently doing well then it is grounds for him to be moved up. COnsidering the large imbalance to the game for him to be low tier would mean something simlar to SSB64.

Any character is viable but the opportunities for Sonic would be lesser.

Howeve rin this game characters like Falcon and Ganondorf consistently place low. And we obviously see that they are much worse in terms of what they are capable of.

What you said would be applicable only if the game was much more balanced.

In anycase I checked Ankoku's thread and found the stuff.


List Summary
Full List
S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: King Dedede, Wario, Marth, Mr. Game & Watch, ROB
B: Lucario, Donkey Kong, Pikachu, Wolf, Falco, Pit
C: Fox, Olimar, Ike, Kirby, Toon Link, Lucas, Ice Climbers, Peach, Zelda, Sonic
D: Zero Suit Samus, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Luigi, Ness, Mario, Bowser
E: Pokemon Trainer, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Link, Samus, Yoshi

Summer 2008
S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: Lucario, ROB, Falco, Pikachu, Marth, Wario, King Dedede
B: Pit, Mr. Game & Watch, Olimar, Fox
C: Ice Climbers, Kirby, Diddy Kong, Wolf
D: Zero Suit Samus, Toon Link, Bowser, Lucas, Sonic, Jiggypuff, Sheik, Zelda
U: The rest

Spring 2008
S: Snake, Meta Knight
A: King Dedede, Marth, Wario, Mr. Game & Watch, ROB
B: Donkey Kong, Wolf, Pikachu, Lucario, Pit
C: Falco, Fox, Olimar, Ike, Kirby, Toon Link, Lucas, Peach, Ice Climbers, Zelda, Sonic, Zero Suit Samus
D: Diddy Kong, Luigi, Sheik, Ness, Mario, Bowser
E: Pokemon Trainer, Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Jigglypuff, Link, Samus, Yoshi

... In relation to those characters, yes, which I agknowledged. Yet somehow we have people thinking that just because he's above those characters moves him to mid, where it just means he's higher in low tier.

No one has said that.

 

[fkacyan]

No one has said that.

Then why keep getting on my nuts about me not caring about the characters below him for the moment? I've stated since the beginning that they'd just be below him.

EDIT: Nice job bringing up the old post he has linked there! However, what is most applicable to the tier list is the most recent metagame, i.e. the most recent results. Nice try though!

 

[ShadowLink84]

Then why keep getting on my nuts about me not caring about the characters below him for the moment? I've stated since the beginning that they'd just be below him.

NO you said they don't matter, that you don't care about the other characters, that they did not influencehis placement.
Thats why I chewed you out and why uber did the same. Unless you are blind I fail to see how you never saw this.

I am saying Sonic should not be so low on the tier list. He should be higher. NOT that he should be placed in mid tier.

If you had understood this you wouldn't have posted so do not complain when people jump on your case.

EDIT: Nice job bringing up the old post he has linked there! However, what is most applicable to the tier list is the most recent metagame, i.e. the most recent results. Nice try though!

Seriously, don't make your edits if you are going to act condescending.

The intent of my posting the list is simply to correct what you said earlier about Sonic being in the E rank of Spring..

The summer tourney results was for anyone who had not seen them and the full list was simply the all of the results compiled together so I added it since someone is bound to e curious.

Now concerning for the recent metagame that rather concerns me for two reasons.

Brawl is mostly figured out so most likely the metagame we see now is most likely going to be very similar in coming years.

Yeah there are some changes but none that are influential to the game.

Its not as if we have some technique like L canceling, Wave Dashing, Crouch Canceling, Dash dancing that would be capable of causing change. Much of what we have now really makes little difference.

The second reason is because the tier lists (not 100% sure I may be mistaken in which case feel free to correct me) use a whole years worth of tournament results rather than seasonal.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Thio, I <3 your sig. Karen is beatin' Suzaku down.

LMAO.

MAJOR EDIT: I <3 Code Geass.

Smooth Criminal

 

[T Bird]

Using an entire years worth of tourney info would be a good idea after the game has become stagnant. Using a years worth of tourney data would have been useless after wave dashing was implemented in melee. As brawl seems to be and have been stagnant for some time it's a good idea. I would like to pose a question, has/does anyone consider the possiblity that some characters simply do poorly because they are under represented? Not that that could be an entire reason, but the reason for sonic winning so many tourneys, especially early could perhaps be, in part, attributed to the fact that every one and their mother used him... Just throwing that out there. For example in melee, ICs were thrown far to low for a long time simply because only one good player used them. After chu made them popular many more played as the ICs and as such ended up being placed higher, even though Chu had already been doing well with them proving them to be better then they were thought to be at the time.

 

[XxOblivion77]

I really am starting to doubt Meta Knight now, as you can actually Smash DI out of his Fair and Bair and some other multi-hit attacks too I believe. I'm pretty sure you can Smash DI (or was it Quarter-Circle DI?) against other multi-hitters. Just that small little thing is definitely make it harder to determine.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

 

[Nintendevil]

Using an entire years worth of tourney info would be a good idea after the game has become stagnant. Using a years worth of tourney data would have been useless after wave dashing was implemented in melee. As brawl seems to be and have been stagnant for some time it's a good idea. I would like to pose a question, has/does anyone consider the possiblity that some characters simply do poorly because they are under represented? Not that that could be an entire reason, but the reason for sonic winning so many tourneys, especially early could perhaps be, in part, attributed to the fact that every one and their mother used him... Just throwing that out there. For example in melee, ICs were thrown far to low for a long time simply because only one good player used them. After chu made them popular many more played as the ICs and as such ended up being placed higher, even though Chu had already been doing well with them proving them to be better then they were thought to be at the time.

Of course it's perfectly logical, but it's highly unlikly that only noobs will show up at a tourney and play as Yoshi, or that all the really good captain falcon players never go to tourneys and don't have youtube accounts. Another example: Everyone (for a while) wondered why D3 was killing so many Marths, and because it was in early metagame, it was verry possible a poor Marth meta game was being played at the time. Maybe D3 players where just... good, and happened to play many matches against marth, but the only problem is; there's no way of calculating that for sure.

Well... how do we know if ther are some guys who don't know about the competitive scene that are playing with some mid tier guy and KILLS with him. It's happening with Luigi. Moveset wise, he should be good, but few people play as him... he's just not getting the tourney stats he needs. This doesn't mean though, that a metagame exists only known by God in wich luigi > snake. We will never know though, if we don't see the action.

 

[Nintendevil]

I really am starting to doubt Meta Knight now, as you can actually Smash DI out of his Fair and Bair and some other multi-hit attacks too I believe. I'm pretty sure you can Smash DI (or was it Quarter-Circle DI?) against other multi-hitters. Just that small little thing is definitely make it harder to determine.

What's everyone else's thoughts on this?

sorry if this becomes a double post...
Well it still needs some testing to be perfected... but I think it's safe to say he might go down a bit. this depends on one facter:

How popular multi hit DI dodging (we need a name for this) becomes...


Now if it's popular, charecters with many multi hit attacks are screwed. (MK, D3 maybe, Pika) and charecters with single hit attacks will go up (Marth ROB). But we still don't know how popular it will be, how practicle it will be, or even how easy it will be in a full blown competitive match or tourney.


reguardless the changes wont be verry major if it has an effect.

 

[Emblem Lord]

lmao.

MK is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more then just his fair and bair.

That won't bring him down at all. It just means his offense with two moves would be slightly less abusive.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Actually Sonic is not a popular character at all in the tournaments.
Soon afte rthe release of Brawl everyone and their mother were disappointed in Sonic and many were confined to say he was trash tier and what not.
When the U.S. obtained the game there were very few Sonic users.
Hence his wins aren't a result of popularity. Certainly not after March and Early april.

*chews cookie*

 

[Mighty_mo76]

Sheesh. That was alot of debating over something that eventually boiled down to....nothing.

Eh, Sonic is low-mid tier. Who cares about specific placement now. All you need to know is

who is definitely top tier and "A" tier. Don't worry about specifics in the lower tiers cuz they all just suck.

After a year or two, then you can worry about specific placement.

Whether sonic is above sheik or below lucas, he's still low-mid tier!

I have to go to the bathroom.....

 

[Mighty_mo76]

Sheesh. That was alot of debating over something that eventually boiled down to....nothing.

Eh, Sonic is low-mid tier. Who cares about specific placement now. All you need to know is

who is definitely top tier and "A" tier. Don't worry about specifics in the lower tiers cuz they all just suck.

After a year or two, then you can worry about specific placement.

Whether sonic is above sheik or below lucas, he's still low-mid tier!

I have to go to the bathroom.....

 

[ShadowLink84]

Where is the delete button?

 

[Grunt]

lmao.

MK is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much more then just his fair and bair.

That won't bring him down at all. It just means his offense with two moves would be slightly less abusive.

NOOOOOOB!
MK IS TRASH NAO!

characters with single hit attacks will go up (Marth ROB).

You forgot Snake.
OH WAIT!

 

[Nintendevil]

You forgot Snake.
OH WAIT!

I don't have to list all the charecters if it's an example.

besides, his dair and nair -both great moves- are multi hit. but at the same time, most of his other techs counter that out so id put him in the middleish place... still top no matter what

 

[ShadowLink84]

Snake is like a broken *****.
No matter how you try to go about things, it will never be the same T^T

Sorry Its 1:00 a.m. and I got bored...

 

[gantrain05]

Snake is like a broken *****.
No matter how you try to go about things, it will never be the same T^T

Sorry Its 1:00 a.m. and I got bored...

i dunno, i have less problems with snakes than i do MK's. at least my ness can 1v1 snake and stand a good chance.

 

[gallax]

i like snake since better since there is actually more finess to using him. the third best player in florida plays MK and all he does is tornado and shuttle loop combined with dmsmash to kill.

 

[gantrain05]

i like snake since better since there is actually more finess to using him. the third best player in florida plays MK and all he does is tornado and shuttle loop combined with dmsmash to kill.

thats exactly what i lost to in my last tournament, and the MK player was walkin around like he was top ****, when all he did was spam and abuse some really cheap broken techniques.

 

[Browny]

eh, id rather fight an MK doing that than a ledge camping, roll-dodge dsmash spamming ROB.