Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[Nigerian Star Storm]

nope, peach is not even debatable, she's not even close to any of the worst characters, she's miles above them, and ike just isn't a good character, but anyways.

On to the metaknight ban, i don't know, yeah shiek was good in melee blah blah blah, but she wasn't broken, but you had AT's to help u out against her, most of the cast actually DID stand a chance, but there were a select few who were just aweful, like bowser and pichu. however in brawl, in my experience with MK, he has a bigger advantage over the rest of the cast than shiek ever had in melee, she was good, but even at her prime, marths, foxes, falcos, dr mario, and even samus did well against her, and thats with a much smaller cast of characters, but in Brawl there are really only a very very few characters that counter MK and even if they did counter him you still have to be a much better player than the MK player, because of the physics of the game i don't think MK is gonna go down anytime soon. but i wouldn't say ban MK just cuz he's a good character and has way too many followers, let the game settle a bit, develop the metagame and see where it goes, and in 2 years if he's still just dominating everything then maybe a ban then lol.

Early on, yes she was. I wasn't exactly around at time, but in researching Melee's history Sheik got many more "lol ban nao" comments than MK ever did early in each game's respective metagames. Snake definately counters or has an advantaged matchup with MK, same with DK,. MK actually has counters IIRC Sheik didn't really have counters aside from people who thought went "Neutral" with her. While you may have a point in the lacks of truly iseful universal and helpful ATs helping the cause, it wouldn;t stop the process compeltely, it would only slow it down. And once again, we cannot say MK is dominating everything at all, the only way you could say this is in theory, because experimental evidence proves otherwise.

S Rank
1 Snake (58 top8, 52 top4, 2 top2, 35 wins, 630 pts)
2 Meta Knight (59 top8, 66 top4, 3 top2, 18 wins, 524 pts)

That was Ankoku's S ranking for them pre Summer 08. Now Granted MK placed slightly more consistently than Snake, but notice how Snake was one win short of Doubling MK's total wins, and also note on that very same list, that Wario had more wins than MK as well with some other characters coming close as well.


While he may limit the field heavily, he certainly isn;t dominating in tournaments as of now >_>


Once again, lets let this discussing of MK's ban-worthiness end after this.

 

[Kiwikomix]

I had fun scrolling through that entire tier list. Three seconds of my life I won't get back.
It's far too early in Brawl to ban a character, just figure out how to play against them. Sure, I make it sound too easy, but come on. If you were to ban MK then half of the people out there would stop playing the game. He has enough blatant weaknesses to keep him from being that great.
Sorry, I didn't let this discussing of MK's ban-worthiness end with that.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

so @ this point we know the best characters in the game are:

metaknight
snake
rob
dedede
falco
g&w
olimar
marth
wario(debatable)
pit(debatable)

and the worst characters:

samus(debatable)
peach(debatable)
link
falcon
jiggly
yoshi

with the rest somewhere inbetween

is this accurate?

*also i think ike and toon link are good characters contrary to their almost non existent usage in recent tournies.

ike is not underrepresented at tournaments, he just gets knocked out in the first few rounds because he's really not that good of a character in person

samus is undebatably bad, her spam is not good, and her close range game is slow with bad priority, all in all, bad character, anyone who can powershield her projectiles wins, zair does not help that much

link and peach arent that bad, link is debatable, but peach is by and far better than those other characters

 

[WULFN]

ike is not underrepresented at tournaments, he just gets knocked out in the first few rounds because he's really not that good of a character in person

samus is undebatably bad, her spam is not good, and her close range game is slow with bad priority, all in all, bad character, anyone who can powershield her projectiles wins, zair does not help that much

link and peach arent that bad, link is debatable, but peach is by and far better than those other characters

i have to agree with you, Peach seems really good. i watched Light play as Peach and he did some crazy stuff with her.

I would also like to say I think that Fox might be debatable as a top teir, he as great arial game and can stand up to a really good MK or Snake player. just dont play against a ZSS or Wario... They tend to **** Fox T_T

 

[Theftz22]

do you guys think fox will ever be higher than wolf?

 

[Karl]

Except Sinma would say the same thing =X

Vaj?
Bum?
THE GERM?
Tipman?
Omnigamer?

Who else?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

Shy Guy: Snake is before Meta Knight. Snake has no bad match ups. He *****. and is tournament history with players is off the charts. Snake >>>>>>>> Meta

 

[Frate]

Okay, guys, please don't kill me, I'm going to do an estimate of a tier list without having even played the game. yeah, that's right.
Starred (*) are characters that I have no idea of and just estimating.

Okay, so:

God tier:

Meta Knight & Snake
Game & Watch

---

The reasoning is simple. Tournament placings show Snake at an advantage while the tayklagklbakl points at meta knight. I'm putting them together because I could give a **** where they are. Game and Watch is an easy-to-learn character with close to overpowered or overpowered smashes with great IASA frames. His turtle just makes you cry, the fishbowl is just "no, please, go to hell" and his box can easily kill. His gun can keep opponents in the air for a long time. Also, great grab and recovery despite lightweight. :D

High Tier (rest of tiers both in no order and a bit of an order)
Falco
Marth
DeDeDe
R.O.B
Zelda*

Upper Tier
Olimar
Toon Link *
Wario
Pit
Wolf *
Pikachu
Diddy Kong *
Lucario *
Sheik*
Fox **

Middle Tier
Ice Climbers *
Donkey Kong *
Kirby *
Lucas
Zamus
Luigi *
Charizard *

Low Tier
Ike
Sonic
Ness
Ivysaur
Samus
Peach
Mario
Link
Squirtle
Bowser

Bottom Tier
Yoshi
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon
Jigglypuff


Rough estimate... As I said I haven't played the game yet... could someone correct my errors for me without being like "Oh my god, you idiot, play the game!"
also, my reasoning for placing Sheik high is that Zelda handles the KO department very well after Sheik racks up the damage. ;(

 

[Hypnotoad]

so @ this point we know the best characters in the game are:

metaknight
snake
rob
dedede
falco
g&w
olimar
marth
wario(debatable)
pit(debatable)

and the worst characters:

samus(debatable)
peach(debatable)
link
falcon
jiggly
yoshi

man, yoshi is like the Rodney Dangerfield of smash brothers, he gets no respect

 

[sHy)(gUy]

im not saying metaknight is better than snake, that list wasnt meant to be in any order.

and its funny so many of u put down ike, while LAs best player mains ike, not to mention he won the entire gamestop national tourney and won 2 LA tourney with 40+ people and came in second in anothet. im not saying hes top tier but atleast high mid.....

and olimar is soooo good, people have no idea, easily the 5th best character in the game

if i had to make a list it would be
top

snake
metaknight
r.o.b

upper

dedede
olimar
falco
g&w
marth

high

wario
pit
wolf
toon link
DK
zelda
ice climbers

mid

lucario
pikachu
ike
diddy
kirby
sonic
fox.........

 

[Frate]

im not saying metaknight is better than snake, that list wasnt meant to be in any order.

and its funny so many of u put down ike, while LAs best player mains ike, not to mention he won the entire gamestop national tourney and won 2 LA tourney with 40+ people and came in second in anothet. im not saying hes top tier but atleast high mid.....

and olimar is soooo good, people have no idea, easily the 5th best character in the game

if i had to make a list it would be
top

snake
metaknight
r.o.b

upper

dedede
olimar
falco
g&w
marth

high

wario
pit
wolf
toon link
DK
zelda
ice climbers

mid

lucario
pikachu
ike
diddy
kirby
sonic
fox.........

I don't think a recovery that even Ganondorf can gimp at 50% is worth of the 5th place...

 

[sHy)(gUy]

I don't think a recovery that even Ganondorf can gimp at 50% is worth of the 5th place...

you'll see, just wait. his recovery is not even an issue, he more than makes up for it in every other area...

 

[Shy Guy 86]

im not saying metaknight is better than snake, that list wasnt meant to be in any order.

and its funny so many of u put down ike, while LAs best player mains ike, not to mention he won the entire gamestop national tourney and won 2 LA tourney with 40+ people and came in second in anothet. im not saying hes top tier but atleast high mid.....

and olimar is soooo good, people have no idea, easily the 5th best character in the game

if i had to make a list it would be
top

snake
metaknight
r.o.b

upper

dedede
olimar
falco
g&w
marth

high

wario
pit
wolf
toon link
DK
zelda
ice climbers

mid

lucario
pikachu
ike
diddy
kirby
sonic
fox.........

1)R.O.B. isn't 3rd, maybe behind Falco/Marth in the tier list.
2)Olimar is no way better than Falco, G&W and Marth. He has a terrible recovery, hes a high or a mid tier character.
3)I don't think D3 is better than Falco, G&W and Marth
4)Fox is pretty good, not as good as Melee but hes still pretty usable, he has a great aerial game, a fast killer move that kill at 90% a reflector a projectile, good speed. thats easily a mid tier or low high tier
5)Pit is mid tier, replace him with Pikachu or something.
6)Sonic is low tier, he can't do anything right.
7)Ike is low tier.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

1)R.O.B. isn't 3rd, maybe behind Falco/Marth in the tier list.
2)Olimar is no way better than Falco, G&W and Marth. He has a terrible recovery, hes a high or a mid tier character.
3)I don't think D3 is better than Falco, G&W and Marth
4)Fox is pretty good, not as good as Melee but hes still pretty usable, he has a great aerial game, a fast killer move that kill at 90% a reflector a projectile, good speed. thats easily a mid tier or low high tier
5)Pit is mid tier, replace him with Pikachu or something.
6)Sonic is low tier, he can't do anything right.
7)Ike is low tier.

i can agree with most of ur reasoning on all of that except olimar, id be willing to bet alot of money that olimar will only be moving up in tournament placing (hes already moved ahead of falco) if uve ever seen a good olimar u will know y....

 

[DanGR]

Yes we all know Olimar has amazing potential but I am starting to think that Olimar's true potential is unobtainable. I mean how is anyone ever going to get good enough to not only micromanage all the pikmin perfectly and be able to use latch to its highest potency consistently?

I've already figured out every pikmin, it's not very hard after spending like 3 months on it.

lol, metaknight wont be banned, snake,rob,olimar,ike,wario,falco probly more can all do well against him... but ya he still probly has the slight advantage over all of them except snake, as time goes on there will be more and more strategies of countering him, but still dont ever see him falling out of top tier, if snake isnt alone in top.

Meta>>Olimar. It's truth. Every Olimar main knows it. Get this, MK's jab goes through Olimar's fsmash...FROM BEHIND HIM!!!

do you guys think fox will ever be higher than wolf?

he should be. Wolf is overrated.


"Olimar- I'll probably be chided for having him not in High tier, but my reasoning is as follows: When you can be consistently gimped by every character in the game at under 50% damage you probably arent high tier. Olimar needs to have a purple pikmin ready just in case to save his recovery. All of his strengths are very obvious, he just has one major glaring weakness that can't be overlooked. I think his poor performance in tournaments so far reflects this."
-someone that I didn't quote

recovery isn't an issue in most matchups on most stages. Let me say this again. RECOVERY ISNT AN ISSUE. All olimar has to do is not use his second jump, then he's safe. He floats horizontally well, he has the longest tether of all tether characters, and he has great priority on his fair and upair to ward of edgeguarders. The only reason he hasn't won any more tournaments than he has is b/c MK is a very tourney popular character, that happens to **** Olimar's helmet off. ALL of MK's attacks go through ALL of Olimar's. That's it. So please.

i can agree with most of ur reasoning on all of that except olimar, id be willing to bet alot of money that olimar will only be moving up in tournament placing (hes already moved ahead of falco) if uve ever seen a good olimar u will know y....

you better believe it son.

 

[Shy Guy 86]

i can agree with most of ur reasoning on all of that except olimar, id be willing to bet alot of money that olimar will only be moving up in tournament placing (hes already moved ahead of falco) if uve ever seen a good olimar u will know y....

I never said that olimar is a bad character. He is great, its just that the tether recovery is what makes him not top tier, he is easily high tier.

 

[DanGR]

ok then. Everyone, if Olimar's recovery is sooooo bad, than show me a life lost where the Olimar

-was below 100%
-wasn't killed off the side of the screen
-wasn't spiked
-was on a stage other than FD
-didn't use his second jump until he was near the stage while trying to recover
-was edgehogged
-and finally, isn't an idiot

Please, go show me.
My point is that his recovery isn't an issue if he doesn't use his second jump, and can apply pressure using upair, fair, and/or pikmin throw.

 

[Deleted member]

I hate fighting ICs with olimar(i play him for fun), getting cged to the edge then throw to fair spike then edgehogged. Its gay. Also olimar isnt as gimpable as people make him out to be but he is still easy to gimp.

 

[sHy)(gUy]

I never said that olimar is a bad character. He is great, its just that the tether recovery is what makes him not top tier, he is easily high tier.

i agree i dont know if he'll ever be top tier but he will be close to it.

as for rob being worse than marth/falco i can see the logic in that but tournament placings would say otherwise,his defensive options are just too good at this point... maybe putting him on the same level as snake/meta is questionable but like olimar he is/will be close to it.

and alot of people say dedede is the third best character in the game and that makes sense when u look at his tournament placing(3rd)

its easy to shuffle around those 6 d3,marth,falco,olimar,r.o.b,g&w....l pedict that rob/olimar/d3 will come out as better characters in the long run from what ive seen.
and expect wario and toon link to be moving up in the future.

 

[Tenki]

6)Sonic is low tier, he I can't do anything right whenever I try to use him .

Correct. ...NOT

Sonic's inherent combo ability via spindash, spring to stop SH/aerial approaches, speed to punish moves with low lag with grabs or combos (eg landing lag, Dedede F-tilt, etc), multiple move cancellations for feints, off-stage reach for gimp kills, and ability to KO Metaknight, Kirby, and G&W with a 5 hit (consecutive hit) combo at 65% don't count for ****

Therefore, take it from a Sonic main, Sonic for bottom tier <3

 

[AgentAO]

The only thing that really hurts Sonic is his almost non-existent priority. Sonic is mid-tier easily. (Tenki beat me to the rest of the stuff).

You could count his lack of killing ability at low percents, but Sonic is able to rack up damage fast enough and has a gimp game that makes it not matter anyway.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

The only thing that really hurts Sonic is his almost non-existent priority. Sonic is mid-tier easily. (Tenki beat me to the rest of the stuff).

You could count his lack of killing ability at low percents, but Sonic is able to rack up damage fast enough and has a gimp game that makes it not matter anyway.

Now tell me, Mid Tier, over who?


You'd probably have to name around 14-17 people Sonic would have to be Mid-Tier over, and quite frankly I'm not sure how many of you can do that.

His tournaments results are horrible and have remained stagant ever since like opening month

His Matchups are bad and not really worthy of someone who's supposedly Mid Tier

And sure we can debate about the actual character's potential as well (Even then it's not nearly as good as some otther Mid Tier characters), but it doesn't really matter at all in the overall factoring of Tier lists now isn't it, since it's supposed to be based off the PRESENT, not the future. Not to mention, I'm not even sure the SBR takes future potential into account (Espiacially considering what AlphaZealot said in the OP), so why should we factor a large portion of it into ours?

 

[Napilopez]

I personally have only 2 "bad" matchups with Sonic, Pikachu and perhaps Luigi. And even those are manageable.

I'll show you a list of who I think Sonic is over later.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I personally have only 2 "bad" matchups with Sonic, Pikachu and perhaps Luigi. And even those are manageable.

I'll show you a list of who I think Sonic is over later.

Two problems with this.

1. You're using PERSONAL Experiance, which is bad

2. Sonic has FAR more than just 2 bad matchups. He has like, a ton. Probably half the roster or even more.

 

[Shark Week]

lol @ people still splitting up pokemon trainer's pokemon

do you clowns not see the logical failing of claiming they're each their own character and then complaining about the fatigue system making them worthless as stand-alone characters?

just lol.

 

[DanGR]

lol @ people still splitting up pokemon trainer's pokemon

do you clowns not see the logical failing of claiming they're each their own character and then complaining about the fatigue system making them worthless as stand-alone characters?

just lol.

replace that with Zelda/Sheik and it works just as well.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

replace that with Zelda/Sheik and it works just as well.

Except Zelda/Sheik doesn't have a Fatigue system.....Nor do they falter as standalone characters.

 

[Yukiwarashi]

Nor are you forced to switch to the other when you lose a stock.

 

[DanGR]

Except Zelda/Sheik doesn't have a Fatigue system.....Nor do they falter as standalone characters.

Ok, I'm wrong about the fatigue. I forgot.

They do falter as standalone characters. Sheik has a harder time killing than Zelda, thus you're hurting yourself by not switching at high percents for the kill. I will always regard them as the same character. If you choose to main one and choose to never use the other, you are hurting yourself and you're not utilizing them to their fullest potential. That simple.

 

[Shark Week]

Ok, I'm wrong about the fatigue. I forgot.

They do falter as standalone characters. Sheik has a harder time killing than Zelda, thus you're hurting yourself by not switching at high percents for the kill. I will always regard them as the same character. If you choose to main one and choose to never use the other, you are hurting yourself and you're not utilizing them to their fullest potential. That simple.

the fact remains that using only sheik or only zelda is infinitely more viable than using just one of the pokemon.

in fact, using just one of the pokemon is impossible.

 

[DanGR]

If you use only one of Zelda/Sheik, you're hurting yourself. It's just as if you ignore ftilt as Snake.

 

[WULFN]

If you use only one of Zelda/Sheik, you're hurting yourself. It's just as if you ignore ftilt as Snake.

I have to agree with you, Zelda/Sheik both have their ups and downs, but you NEED to use both to make a great main. I usally use Zelda for my kills and Sheik to rack up Damage to about 50 - 70 %

 

[Ratherion]

You're not forced to switch Pokémon, you're given a free, unpunishable switch. Force has such a negative context when it's actually a good thing.

 

[DanGR]

Some games I play as Sheik, some i play as only Zelda, some i play as Sheik and Zelda. But i consider Sheik and Zelda one character in all three. I'm just using the Sheik part of the blended character for one matchup, using the Zelda part for another.

Some people only use Sheik or only use Zelda. So you could say they need their own spots on tier lists. But i think those players have just decided not to master the whole character, just the aspects they like, and their game is suffering for it. So if we put Sheik and Zelda by themselves on the tier lists and put S/Z on there too, i think that's the same as having:

*Tier List*
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash mastered)
Meta Knight
Snake (dash cancelled upsmash ignored)
G&W
Falco (able to Short Hop Double Laser)

This was QFT

 

[Deleted member]

You're not forced to switch Pokémon, you're given a free, unpunishable switch. Force has such a negative context when it's actually a good thing.

Its very punishable, ill charge a smash in ur face and if ur ivysaur and possibly squirtle u may be dead.

 

[Shark Week]

Its very punishable, ill charge a smash in ur face and if ur ivysaur and possibly squirtle u may be dead.

bwahahahahaha

 

[chckn]

So much for talk of tiers

 

[adumbrodeus]

I don't think a recovery that even Ganondorf can gimp at 50% is worth of the 5th place...

Gannondorf has an incredible dair, he can gimp anyone at 50%.

It's just getting the opportunity that's a killer...

 

[GI Josh]

Ah, I'll give it a go

TOP
Snake
Toon Link
Meta Knight
G&W

HIGH
R.O.B.
Wolf
Marth
Pit
Wario
D3
Olimar

MID
Falco
Ice Climbers
Diddy
Lucario
ZSS
Pika
Lucas
Fox
Luigi
Mario
Shiek
Ike
Squirtle

LOW
Peach
Charizard
Kirby
Donkey
Sonic
Ness
Samus
Ivysaur
Bowser

BOTTOM
Ganondorf
Link
Yoshi
Puff
Captian Falcon

 

[WolfCypher]

Ah, I'll give it a go

TOP
Snake
Toon Link
Meta Knight
G&W

HIGH
R.O.B.
Wolf
Marth
Pit
Wario
D3
Olimar

MID
Pit
Falco
Ice Climbers
Diddy
Lucario
ZSS
Pika
Lucas
Fox
Luigi
Mario
Shiek
Ike
Squirtle

LOW
Peach
Charizard
Kirby
Donkey
Sonic
Ness
Samus
Ivysaur
Bowser

BOTTOM
Ganondorf
Link
Yoshi
Puff
Captian Falcon

Pit in two different tiers?