Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[orintemple]

In a way I think tiers are kind of dumb because I've seen godly players using all sorts of different characters...

No, tiers are not dumb, they are just reference. It is not the word if God. You don't need to play a characters just cause their top tier.

 

[SlickSlicer]

I know that they're not the end-all of things, but half of it is opinion. Granted, I acknowledge that some characters are better than others as a whole, but still, just because 5 people say Ivysaur is bad and one person says he's good, doesn't mean that Ivysaur is low-tier. It just means that said one person might be good with Ivysaur and the rest don't like him. :/

Kinda hard to explain, but basically I think that tiers should be taken as opinion, because that's what they are. Some people main with characters that are unpopular and still kick @$$ all over the place.

Edit-Ok, to better explain it, I think that the best way to gauge character strengths are for people to list, in numerical order, what characters are best to worst. Then a graph can be made, and a bell curve established. This curve would show trends that more or less demonstrate what characters are generally preferred, and therefore what characters are probably better in general. But one person's opinion on tiers is definitely not fact.

When I said "kinda dumb" before, I meant that tier lists make sense in some ways and don't make sense in others. For one thing, there is an individualization fallacy. One character that's usually terrible might be good in the right hands of a few individuals. The opposite is true for top-tier characters. I hope that makes sense.

 

[da K.I.D.]

In a way I think tiers are kind of dumb because I've seen godly players using all sorts of different characters...

and those guys will still get ***** by the people who are godly and play higher tiered characters. thats what tiers are.... a ranking system of each character when played at their best, in a tournament setting. gimpyfish was a great player in melee. but its still relatively easy for fox and falco to destroy bowser, no matter who is playing who.

 

[SlickSlicer]

I guess that makes sense...

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

If anyone's roll and spot dodge are broken, it's Lucario's.

Frame data came in, the invincibility starts on frame 2. @_@

I think there are other characters who have about the same I-frame startup time, but we all know how far and fast he goes with his dodges.

 

[JJ259]

Lucario's roll = god tier...


nuff said

 

[da K.I.D.]

also, tiers do not represent any thing about a char. besides what i mentioned earlier. which means that there are many situations where tiers are useless. for example. Sonic is low/mid tier, but that will never matter if you play with smash balls on b/c his final is hands down the most OP'd move in the game. and if you play with items on that automaticaly makes spacies better than they already were just b/c they reflect anything that you throw at them. also even if ganon is the worst player in the game (and he just might be) if you only play ganon when theres 3 other ppl on the board. than his attacks being slow and easy to dodge and him being really tall are never going to matter if he can clear the room with one attack even tho everyone only had 80 damage.

so in short, unless you are playing in a tournament or are practicing for a tournament tiers arent really all that important, b/c knowing your opponent and counter picking characters and stages are going to be much more important

 

[Corigames]

so in short, unless you are playing in a tournament or are practicing for a tournament tiers arent really all that important, b/c knowing your opponent and counter picking characters and stages are going to be much more important

Uh... yeah. We already kinda knew that. There's no point in worrying about the placement of characters in tournament play outside of tournament play.

 

[Tien2500]

ok, i just played some guy where i was pt. as ivysaur, i killed his metaknight with an up air after i had taken 18% and he had taken 86%. he switched to pit and i killed him with an up air at 36% while he was somewhere in his 80s. both times it was in the first minute of the match. just a little anecdote for those of you who say ivysaur has trouble going on the offensive.

you don't spam razor because it shuts them down. you spam it because it blocks their projectiles AND forces them to come to you, giving you either a free vine whip or a free bullet seed to fsmash. and on that the subject of bullet seed, it's is not for covering yourself from above, that's vine whip's job. bullet seed is for punishing people who try to roll around your razor leaves. i just position myself where they're going to be when their roll ends and start seeding. not only am i able to bypass the starting hit, which emblem lord accurately pointed out as being counterproductive, i also am almost guaranteed a free fsmash once they di out of the attack. i just wait until it looks like they're about to get out, then i let go of the button and fsmash to whichever side of the column they're on. it's worked pretty reliably so far, and it's essentially a free 60% or so. that's how i beat that guy's pit earlier... bullet seed to bullet seed to fsmash to up air. game over.



this is how i know you have no idea how to play ivysaur and therefore shouldn't even be making comments about him. you don't razor leaf as they're running towards the edge, you razor leaf after they've grabbed the edge so it knocks them off and the edge is free for you. i think i actually killed someone this way earlier today...

EDIT: highandmightyjoe, i know from your post that you have no idea how to play ivysaur correctly, mainly because of that tirade you went on about razor leaf. man, this is kind of startling... people who have no idea how to play a character are making judgment calls on said character. and half of you probably think you deserve to get into the sbr, huh?

Wow... you're just not getting it are you? So you could win a match or two as Ivysaur. Big deal. I just completely trampled a Metaknight player with Ivysaur. Does that mean that Ivy is better than MK? Of course not. It just means that in that particular game I played better than him. Enough so that I won despite Ivy's shortcomings.

By the way play better people. Good players are not going to get punished for over rolling. And a good player is not going to wait on the edge to be hit by a razor leaf. They're going to wait ontil you're near enough to the edge to grab it then hop on so you can't grab with vinewhip and its too late to hit them with a leaf. So assuming your opponent is not stupid enough to wait and hang on the edge you're going to have to hit them when they're at the edge of the stage.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Wow... you're just not getting it are you? So you could win a match or two as Ivysaur. Big deal. I just completely trampled a Metaknight player with Ivysaur. Does that mean that Ivy is better than MK? Of course not. It just means that in that particular game I played better than him. Enough so that I won despite Ivy's shortcomings.

if i can consistently bring all of the pt's pokemon up to a level to be competitive with the top tier characters, doesn't that tell you that maybe pt, and in particular ivysaur, isn't that bad? i mean, i could see your point if it actually was "one or two matches," but i'm getting pretty consistent results over here.

By the way play better people. Good players are not going to get punished for over rolling.

it's not their choice. if i accurately predict (a) that they will roll and (b) where they will roll, they will eat about 40% and maybe an fsmash. don't tell me good players just aren't going to use their rolls and spot dodges.

And a good player is not going to wait on the edge to be hit by a razor leaf. They're going to wait ontil you're near enough to the edge to grab it then hop on so you can't grab with vinewhip and its too late to hit them with a leaf. So assuming your opponent is not stupid enough to wait and hang on the edge you're going to have to hit them when they're at the edge of the stage.

and how exactly is that different from the weaknesses of a regular recovery?

 

[S_B]

I think tiers have to be taken seriously because they're a valid statistic.

If you have 100 tournaments with 32 players each and every player picks the character they like, after enough tournaments, you're going to start determining which characters have advantages over which other characters.

After 6 years, I think Melee's tiers are very real because, otherwise, we'd have players rise to the top and start winning tourneys with Bowser or Pichu, yet that never happens. It's statistically impossible for tiers to not be real.

I wish Nintendo had taken some initiative and used the online statistics to create balance patches, just small tweaks here and there. When you have data from millions of 1v1 fights, you should be able to see where the characters are balanced.

The character win percentages in a data set that size would easily determine tiers.

 

[WhiteWingDemon]

if i can consistently bring all of the pt's pokemon up to a level to be competitive with the top tier characters, doesn't that tell you that maybe pt, and in particular ivysaur, isn't that bad? i mean, i could see your point if it actually was "one or two matches," but i'm getting pretty consistent results over here.

Gimpyfish completely owned with Bowser but that didn't stop bowser from low tiers. Also according to you, since I can consistently beat up anyone 'round here with Zamus, then she must be in the god tier. After all, not all fifteen kids I play with can suck?

 

[Conda]

That's because Gimpy didn't win often with Bowser. He did well enough to stand out, but not good enough to help Bowser's tier placement. Also, it didn't help that he admitted Bowser stunk, which he did.

Tier lists are ****ed up in one way because the characters that everyone plays are so high in the tier lists, while other character who are good, but ignored, are low/medium.

 

[Lucario2k8]

i think R.O.B should be very high, he really surprised me, he would be my back-up after wolf

 

[Kiwikomix]

ROB already is very high. Top Tier is a stretch, but definitely High.

And I totally agree with what Conda says about ignored characters being unfairly lower in tier lists. Ice Climbers or Ness, for example, are definitely strong characters but Ness has been ignored for Lucas and the IC's never get any attention.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Gimpyfish completely owned with Bowser but that didn't stop bowser from low tiers. Also according to you, since I can consistently beat up anyone 'round here with Zamus, then she must be in the god tier. After all, not all fifteen kids I play with can suck?

way to take what i'm saying completely out of context.

you should be a lawyer, you're so ****ing good at arguing.

 

[ShadowLink84]

way to take what i'm saying completely out of context.

you should be a lawyer, you're so ****ing good at arguing.

He certainly is

***** your n00bish behind thats for sure.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

He certainly is

***** your n00bish behind thats for sure.

what are you, his secretary? **** off, pamela.

 

[KingofCereal]

I've avoided it until I felt like putting off a philosophy paper:
Unarguably Good Tier
Marth, MK, Pit, TL, Fox, Pikachu, Snake, Game & Watch
Arguably Good Tier
Zamus, DK, Ike, Wolf, IC, Lucas, Luigi, Diddy, Mario, Peach
I get why they might be good, but I don't like Tier
Falco, Zelda, ROB, Ike, Olimar, Dedede, Wario,
Still unsure about Tier
Kirby, Sheik, Ness, PT, Lucario
Bad, but I like
Samus, Captain Falcon, Bowser, Link, Sonic
Bad Tier
Ganon, Jiggly, Yoshi
I'm pretty sure thats it...

 

[daytimeninja]

Top Tier: (in no specific order)
ROB
GaW
Marth
TL
Pika
Zamus


/thread

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Hey, just for giggles, I'll post the tier list that the official Brawl guide makes. Funny as HEY-ULL.

Top Tier:
Marth

High Tier:
Captain Falcon
Diddy Kong
Peach
Snake
Toon Link
Wolf


Mid Tier:
Bowser
Falco
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Pit
Pokémon Trainer
Zero Suit Samus
Sonic
Sheik

Low Tier:
Donkey Kong
Fox
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Ike
Luigi
Meta Knight
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.
Samus
Zelda

Bottom Tier:
Kirby
Olimar
Wario
Yoshi



I love how crappy official strategy guides are. Least it helped me get 100% in SSE.

 

[Kiwikomix]

LoL at placement of Cpt Falcon, Diddy, Peach, Bowser, Jiggz, Link, Mario, Ness, Pit, Sonic, Sheik, Donkey Kong, Fox, Ganondorf, IC's, Ike, Luigi, MK, Gdub, ROB, Zelda, Kirby, Olimar, and Wario.

It looks like they tried to combine the Melee tiers with sh*t soup.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

It looks like they tried to combine the Melee tiers with sh*t soup.

****ing fantastic analogy

 

[SBJtagteam]

Hey, just for giggles, I'll post the tier list that the official Brawl guide makes. Funny as HEY-ULL.

Top Tier:
Marth

High Tier:
Captain Falcon
Diddy Kong
Peach
Snake
Toon Link
Wolf


Mid Tier:
Bowser
Falco
Jigglypuff
King Dedede
Link
Lucario
Lucas
Mario
Ness
Pit
Pokémon Trainer
Zero Suit Samus
Sonic
Sheik

Low Tier:
Donkey Kong
Fox
Ganondorf
Ice Climbers
Ike
Luigi
Meta Knight
Mr. Game & Watch
R.O.B.
Samus
Zelda

Bottom Tier:
Kirby
Olimar
Wario
Yoshi



I love how crappy official strategy guides are. Least it helped me get 100% in SSE.

this is prob. the funniest tier i have ever seen but once again... wario apperently sucks... lol no one likes him

 

[Patinator]

Hate to break it to ya, Lobelia, but I've already posted that here. One MAJOR flaw is that they added the Final Smashes in their ratings, which is of course something that shouldn't be in a competitive Brawl tier list. Besides, Prima gave pretty bad tips anyway. They are not to be taken seriously. They're not to be taken PERIOD.

 

[the_Capt_Falcon_Master]

Hate to break it to ya, Lobelia, but I've already posted that here. One MAJOR flaw is that they added the Final Smashes in their ratings, which is of course something that shouldn't be in a competitive Brawl tier list. Besides, Prima gave pretty bad tips anyway. They are not to be taken seriously. They're not to be taken PERIOD.

if fs's were taken into account why were fox and yoshi below dk? Prima must really be off their rocker.

 

[Patinator]

if fs's were taken into account why were fox and yoshi below dk? Prima must really be off their rocker.

Well, that's a good question. I mean, Fox, Falco, and Wolf were the only ones with a 9 FS rating, except for Marth, I think. I think DK had like 5 or 6, but he must have had higher ratings in other categories.

Prima... Tsk, tsk. Now, this wouldn't have happened if Nintendo Power did it. We'd also have the names for other moves, not just Specials. -_-

 

[DarkKnight077]

My top tier is always constantly changing all the time.

So far I think this might be ok for a list.

Top:
Marth
Snake
Meta

If were up to me I'd put Pit in high.

High:
Pit
Ike
DDD
Wario

That's all I have for now. x.x;

 

[Nicktendo]

for low High/high Mid baby

 

[Grunt]

wow, that strategy guide tier list is great >.>

if FS are in, then it should be

Top:
Space Animals

High:
Marth
Zelda
Shiek

Decent:
everyone else

 

[Yuna-Maria]

Hate to break it to ya, Lobelia, but I've already posted that here. One MAJOR flaw is that they added the Final Smashes in their ratings, which is of course something that shouldn't be in a competitive Brawl tier list. Besides, Prima gave pretty bad tips anyway. They are not to be taken seriously. They're not to be taken PERIOD.

Dang, sorry for the doublepost then. My bad.
But I'm not deleting the post, I still get a nice laugh when I read it.

 

[Corner-Trap]

VulgarHandGestures

You're forgetting that tier lists measure the characters abilities, not the players. So even if you play consistently with Ivysaur, it doesn't change the fact that she's crap compared to the majority of the characters.

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

VulgarHandGestures

You're forgetting that tier lists measure the characters abilities, not the players. So even if you play consistently with Ivysaur, it doesn't change the fact that she's crap compared to the majority of the characters.

but that's the thing... ivysaur isn't crap. you're coming up all this nonsense about "not having any offensive ability" or "having too much lag and no power," and you're just flat out making it up. i have never said ivysaur was the best character in the game, but ivysaur isn't even close to bottom tier. ivysaur has way too much of what makes a character good to be in bottom, or even low, tier.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

but that's the thing... ivysaur isn't crap. you're coming up all this nonsense about "not having any offensive ability" or "having too much lag and no power," and you're just flat out making it up. i have never said ivysaur was the best character in the game, but ivysaur isn't even close to bottom tier. ivysaur has way too much of what makes a character good to be in bottom, or even low, tier.

Like what?

Range?

Smooth Criminal

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

Like what?

Range?

Smooth Criminal

i've said it way too much to have to repeat myself at one in the morning. why don't you bother learning ivysaur before making statements of supreme authority?

 

[BDawgPHD]

I think tiers have to be taken seriously because they're a valid statistic.

If you have 100 tournaments with 32 players each and every player picks the character they like, after enough tournaments, you're going to start determining which characters have advantages over which other characters.

After 6 years, I think Melee's tiers are very real because, otherwise, we'd have players rise to the top and start winning tourneys with Bowser or Pichu, yet that never happens. It's statistically impossible for tiers to not be real.

I wish Nintendo had taken some initiative and used the online statistics to create balance patches, just small tweaks here and there. When you have data from millions of 1v1 fights, you should be able to see where the characters are balanced.

The character win percentages in a data set that size would easily determine tiers.

The major problem with this is that wifi play is drastically different from offline play, and certain characters do much better online than offline. Also, the tiers are the standard determined by the highest level of play. Sure, if me and some other nub were at the same skill level, I'd probably beat his Pikachu with Mario, but that doesn't mean Mario is better....you have to look at the players at the highest level.

Also, to be perfectly objective, Ivysaur isn't gonna be much higher than the bottom of mid, although at that point the placement in tier doesn't really matter. As one wise player said about being good in general, and as I always bring up about characters, the way to win is to use good spacing and minimize risks. Ivysaur's spacing is awesome, and in battle he doesn't have a lot of risk. However, when he gets knocked off the stage, the risk becomes enormous, and Ivysaur players have to work that much harder to get back to the stage or make the most of the situation. However, with the defensive options that Brawl has been given, Ivysaur can hold his own and avoid getting knocked off the stage in the first place. Thus he's not as suckish as you say, although he does not have a vast margin of error.

 

[Corigames]

i've said it way too much to have to repeat myself at one in the morning. why don't you bother learning ivysaur before making statements of supreme authority?

Irony or stupidity?

Text "Yes" to 1-800-555-1234 if you think Irony and "No" if you think stupidity. Call now.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Irony or stupidity?

Text "Yes" to 1-800-555-1234 if you think Irony and "No" if you think stupidity. Call now. I'm not only the owner, I also call a lot and say "No".

I don't know what problem you have with VHG's statement.....first of all, he's about 3000% better than you are, making him a much stronger authority on anything Brawl. Second of all, he's right....you need to get to know Ivysaur before you can say that he sucks, as I have. He's definitely better than most of you think he is, and everyone that thinks he's awful is ********. The only one who even remotely knows what he's talking about that labels Ivysaur as awful is St. Viers, and that's because none of us use him often enough to get used to not getting gimped, except for me.

Seriously guys, learn to play Brawl. I'd imagine that about 3% of everyone that plays Brawl right now actually KNOWS how to play.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

b dawg i would say that my playing style renders me to say that he is the weakest of the three when i play pkmn trainer i use ivy first because thats my weakest link....

 

[VulgarHandGestures]

I don't know what problem you have with VHG's statement.....first of all, he's about 3000% better than you are, making him a much stronger authority on anything Brawl. Second of all, he's right....you need to get to know Ivysaur before you can say that he sucks, as I have. He's definitely better than most of you think he is, and everyone that thinks he's awful is ********. The only one who even remotely knows what he's talking about that labels Ivysaur as awful is St. Viers, and that's because none of us use him often enough to get used to not getting gimped, except for me.

Seriously guys, learn to play Brawl. I'd imagine that about 3% of everyone that plays Brawl right now actually KNOWS how to play.

actually, coreygames would probably rock my world. but that's ok because he's an ***, so i still win!

i agree that ivysaur is "mid tier"-ish. i've said that multiple times, actually. ivysaur just has too much going for it to be in the freaking bottom tier with ganondorf and falcon.