Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[sHy)(gUy]

top

toon link
r.o.b
metaknight
marth
snake

high

g&w
pit
diddy
falco
ike
olimar
wolf
zelda
pikachu
lucas
dedede
ice climbers

mid

fox
shiek
luigi
kirby
ness
lucario
zamus
peach

low

DK
PT
Link
mario
samus
sonic
wario
bowser

bottom

Ganondorf
jigglypuff
yoshi
capt falcon

this is it..... little iffy on some top/high but this is generally what im feeling now

 

[JackHouser]

tiers of for queers

its just an excuse for people who lose

prove me wrong

 

[DiasFlac]

Its "Tiers are for queers" and I agree.

Bowser > All

 

[ellelaby's younger brother]

tiers of for queers

its just an excuse for people who lose

prove me wrong

I think it only applies to Brawl though, not Melee. With Brawl I'm finding no matter how good I play (with Falco) I still somehow get beaten by my brother with various characters that he mains. Even against characters that Falco is supposed to have an advantage against. There are some characters in Brawl such as Ganondorf and Captain Falcon that are plainly just bad, but there is a range of characters (mostly mid and top tier characters on people's list) that are all extremely close. Though there are a few characters with distinct advantages.

 

[-Zangetsu-]

Tosses 2 cents~

Top

Marth
Diddy Kong
Toon Link
Lucas
Zelda
Ike

High
Pikachu
IC's
Snake
Luigi
Olimar
R.O.B.
Falco
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
DEDEDE
Fox
Shiek
Meta Knight
Wario
Pokemon Trainer
Ness
Kirby

Mid
Yoshi
G&W
Jiggly Puff
Ganondorf
Bowser
Samus
Peach
Mario
Donkey Kong
Captain Falcon

Low
Lucario
Link
Wolf
Sonic


The high tier seems a bit hefty, may have to break that up into 2.
Based on what I have witnessed so far.

 

[BDawgPHD]

I hate to say it (and I know I'll probably be flamed), but it seems like the only way to really be competitive is to ban Snake in tournaments... The very fact that so much discussion and thought it needed to find characters that can possibly counter Snake sheds light on how broken the character is.

Don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't want to play a game where the only playable characters are Snake and his FEW counters.

But I will agree with BDawg... D3 may be a good Snake counter.


Edit:
Either that or ban Snake camping.

Snake is by no means unbeatable. He just has a lot of options for victory, just like MK. It still comes down to the skill of the player and the intelligence of the player, more so now in Brawl.

That being said, I think it has a lot to do with not knowing the matchup well enough (I think someone mentioned that). I mean, if you leave yourself open for even a second, MK will **** you. If you make one mistake, you'll probably pay with a stock against MK. Most people don't really know how to play against MK yet, nor do they against Snake. Snake has excellent control over the battlefield, but there are ways around it for most characters. A lot of people have melee-ish tendencies, particularly rushing the **** into battle.

Think about these things for a moment....

1) Realistically, Snake can only have control over two spots on the map at once. His land mine activates as soon as someone comes near it. Everything else requires him to not be doing anything at the time so he can manually activate a move. If he has a C4 out, he has to press downB to activate it, meaning he can't be in the middle of using a tilt or something. He has to be in his nikita animation to control the nikita, and he can let it go or drop it, which has its own aerial control. This can be airdodged through whether it's going slowly or not, although Snake might have a land mine laid down so if you try to jump-dodge through the nikita, you might land on the mine. Nades don't supply a great amount of control unless you cook them for a bit or hold them as a counter, and at that point you already have lost the control that you gain from having the nade in the first place.

2) I think that most characters can trip the land mine without taking damage. People with projectiles that go low to the ground can trip it, and I'm betting characters with disjointed hitboxes can trip them without getting hurt as well. This effectively takes out a nice chunk of control for Snake if it's the case.

Brawl is all about being tactically sound and quicker than the other guy. Snake and MK don't give people the chance to think about what's going on because they have such fierce control over the flow of battle. But once people learn the matchup, it'll be a matter of dealing with it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Tosses 2 cents~

Tier list

The high tier seems a bit hefty, may have to break that up into 2.
Based on what I have witnessed so far.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this game's tiers are weighted on the high tier as opposed to the mid and lower tiers this time around. This game in many ways is more balanced than Melee, so it's natural that you would find more characters higher up on the tiers.

Barring that, I'm not gonna lie to you. Your list is pretty grossly inaccurate.

Ike is not top tier for one...he gets destroyed by the top tier characters pretty severely.

Mr. G&W is top tier. Best approach + Ike-like strength without the huge lag + amazing aerial attack utility + D-throw techchase setup + best recovery in the game = top tier. Btw, if you think Zelda is top tier, you should realize that G&W is a LOT better than Zelda and in fact flat out counters her.

Wolf is high tier. His weakness is gimpable recovery. However he's fairly solid in all other areas.

Yoshi and Peach are low tier. Mario and Bowser are high tier.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are bottom tier.

Also Falco, Metaknight, and Snake are generally agreed to be around the top tier.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this game's tiers are weighted on the high tier as opposed to the mid and lower tiers this time around. This game in many ways is more balanced than Melee, so it's natural that you would find more characters higher up on the tiers.

Barring that, I'm not gonna lie to you. Your list is pretty grossly inaccurate.

Ike is not top tier for one...he gets destroyed by the top tier characters pretty severely.

Mr. G&W is top tier. Best approach + Ike-like strength without the huge lag + amazing aerial attack utility + D-throw techchase setup + best recovery in the game = top tier. Btw, if you think Zelda is top tier, you should realize that G&W is a LOT better than Zelda and in fact flat out counters her.

Wolf is high tier. His weakness is gimpable recovery. However he's fairly solid in all other areas.

Yoshi and Peach are low tier. Mario and Bowser are high tier.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are bottom tier.

Also Falco, Metaknight, and Snake are generally agreed to be around the top tier.

I say Falcon is at least low tier, possibly mid tier once people learn to actually use him properly. Or there's gonna be a bigass bottom tier. Also, Mario is NOT high tier, his recovery isn't good enough, and he's not beast enough. Bowser IS high tier, though. I think Yoshi will be somewhere in mid tier once we see a good Yoshi. And I don't know about Peach being low tier just because her second jump doesn't exist >_>

 

[A2ZOMG]

Captain Falcon doesn't have advantages. Hence why he's the worst character in the game. He can't land any kill moves, he can't approach, he can't grab, and he can't recover. Ganondorf at least can grab, combo, and kill (and indeed in that order). Ganondorf also gets one SUPER HAX counterpick stage (Brinstar). Captain Falcon doesn't.

Oh come on, tell me one thing Captain Falcon has that nobody has better. There is NOTHING. You could say run speed, although Sonic beats him there, but Sonic is also terrible (although not quite as terrible as Falcon). You could say Falcon can U-air juggle, but a lot of characters can do that too, and they don't have nearly as much trouble setting up for that. You could say Falcon has the Knee, but he can't ever land that unless his opponent is doing things wrong, whereas Ganondorf can easily land his super fast F-tilt and kill someone more effectively. Couple this with the fact Captain Falcon's priority blows nearly as bad as Sonic's, and that his recovery is still one of the worst in the game, you have THE worst character in the game.

Mario has like the best ledgeguarding strategies in the game. And mind you, he's not like slightly better at ledgeguarding to the point where it is nonexistent. I really mean he is ****ing good at ledgeguarding. The Cape and FLUDD, contrary to popular belief, are amazingly useful for ledgeguarding in Brawl. Mario beyond that is much better at approaching and recovering in Brawl. Due to floaty physics, he can use Fireballs a LOT more effectively, and because he is more agile, he can follow behind Fireballs easily. When recovering, he can throw more Fireballs or use aerial attacks more freely than he could in Melee. Also, Mario's Up-B is undeniably one of the better ones in Brawl. I'd go on a limb and say Mario's recovery is actually GOOD in Brawl. Nowhere near the best, but it is very underrated as of now. It is at bare minimum AVERAGE in Brawl.

So all in all, Mario is a beast at ledgeguarding in a game where ledgeguarding is very difficult. His recovery is NOT bad. He has a very quick and effective aerial game. He can now approach very effectively because his Fireballs are good. His main weakness is range, and to a lesser extent kill strength, which he doesn't need quite as much when he's great at ledgeguarding. Also, Mario has a Jab infinite combo. Mario is GOOD in Brawl. Now I agree Bowser is definitely better than Mario this time around, but Mario should be able to reasonably compete with him on the high tier.

Peach has like waaaaay worse recovery than Mario btw. She can't projectile spam off the stage like Mario, nor can she counter projectile spam that comes at her. She can't float about the range of interception, and her Up-B sucks balls for recovery. Anyhow she sucks because she lacks range, kill strength, and she's lightweight. She doesn't have any good combos into killers. Mario is better however because he has better projectile spam and ledgeguarding strategies.

 

[BDawgPHD]

Captain Falcon doesn't have advantages. Hence why he's the worst character in the game. He can't land any kill moves, he can't approach, he can't grab, and he can't recover. Ganondorf at least can grab, combo, and kill (and indeed in that order). Ganondorf also gets one SUPER HAX counterpick stage (Brinstar). Captain Falcon doesn't.

Oh come on, tell me one thing Captain Falcon has that nobody has better. There is NOTHING. You could say run speed, although Sonic beats him there, but Sonic is also terrible (although not quite as terrible as Falcon). You could say Falcon can U-air juggle, but a lot of characters can do that too, and they don't have nearly as much trouble setting up for that. You could say Falcon has the Knee, but he can't ever land that unless his opponent is doing things wrong, whereas Ganondorf can easily land his super fast F-tilt and kill someone more effectively. Couple this with the fact Captain Falcon's priority blows nearly as bad as Sonic's, and that his recovery is still one of the worst in the game, you have THE worst character in the game.

Mario has like the best ledgeguarding strategies in the game. And mind you, he's not like slightly better at ledgeguarding to the point where it is nonexistent. I really mean he is ****ing good at ledgeguarding. The Cape and FLUDD, contrary to popular belief, are amazingly useful for ledgeguarding in Brawl. Mario beyond that is much better at approaching and recovering in Brawl. Due to floaty physics, he can use Fireballs a LOT more effectively, and because he is more agile, he can follow behind Fireballs easily. When recovering, he can throw more Fireballs or use aerial attacks more freely than he could in Melee. Also, Mario's Up-B is undeniably one of the better ones in Brawl. I'd go on a limb and say Mario's recovery is actually GOOD in Brawl. Nowhere near the best, but it is very underrated as of now. It is at bare minimum AVERAGE in Brawl.

So all in all, Mario is a beast at ledgeguarding in a game where ledgeguarding is very difficult. His recovery is NOT bad. He has a very quick and effective aerial game. He can now approach very effectively because his Fireballs are good. His main weakness is range, and to a lesser extent kill strength, which he doesn't need quite as much when he's great at ledgeguarding. Also, Mario has a Jab infinite combo. Mario is GOOD in Brawl. Now I agree Bowser is definitely better than Mario this time around, but Mario should be able to reasonably compete with him on the high tier.

Peach has like waaaaay worse recovery than Mario btw. She can't projectile spam off the stage like Mario, nor can she counter projectile spam that comes at her. She can't float about the range of interception, and her Up-B sucks balls for recovery. Anyhow she sucks because she lacks range, kill strength, and she's lightweight. She doesn't have any good combos into killers. Mario is better however because he has better projectile spam and ledgeguarding strategies.

First of all, how do you figure that Captain Falcon is the worst character when Peach is just so bad?

Second of all, pick out every character in this game and tell me one thing that they have over everyone else. It's impossible because there are 39 characters, and between Meta Knight and Snake, those two characters have almost the best of everything. Taking those two out, you still have a lot of characters that don't have the best of anything.

Third of all, Falcon still has a pretty good air game. His uair is still pretty good, it can even combo if you do it right, given it can still be airdodged out of, but that just leaves the person open for the next attack. His bair is a pretty solid attack, his nair doesn't combo, but has good knockback, his dair has both good horizontal knockback AND it can spike, depending on how you hit it, and you can still anticipate your opponent's movements and land a knee.

Also, although his recovery is comparatively worse than most of the other characters', it still isn't bad, and he now has two recovery options, and he can't really get gimped like he could in Melee.

All in all, I think players who know how to play Falcon in Melee and also know how to play Brawl can put Falcon's pluses to good use and cover his faults. He might not be tournament viable at the highest level, but I still say he might make mid tier.

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

MK isn't even hard to beat. Snake is the one that gives me trouble. -_-

 

[sweener]

I am pretty sure there is still a lot to learn in this game. I mean a couple weeks ago people were only arguing about MetaKnight and thoughts of Snake being in High Tier were unheard of... but now seeing as there has been so much progress he has made leaps and bounds over everyone. People have learned these two characters to the point where they are nearly unstoppable! Other characters I believe will reveal themselves just as much.

and I hate mario ledgeguarding. i mean i love it but playing against it screw me!

 

[Corner-Trap]

Some IC info, just trying to raise the hype level for them.

Pros & Cons:

+ Recovery is better since both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges
+ Nana's AI is better since she'll use UpB and SideB on her own to recover
+ Harder to separate the IC's since they resynch faster
+ Best throws in the game
+ Desynching has limitless possibilities
+ Good move set overall with decent range, speed, damage, priority, and knockback
+ Grabbing is easier since the game is slower, attacks have more lag, shields drop faster, and perfect shielding is easier. IC's also have high traction so they won't get pushed far away after shielding, there's two of them meaning double the chances to land a grab, and they have of easy grab setups.
- Popo is much weaker when Nana dies
- Doesn't do well on stages with too many hazards or movement

Match-ups:

Bowser- Good 7/3
Captain Falcon- Fair 6/4
Charizard- Fair 6/4
Diddy Kong- Fair 5/5
Donkey Kong- Good 7/3
Falco- Fair 5/5
Fox- Fair 6/4
Game & Watch- Fair 4/6
Ganondorf- Good 7/3
Ice Climbers- Fair 5/5
Ike- Fair 6/4
Ivysaur- Good 7/3
Jigglypuff- Fair 6/4
King Dedede- Fair 6/4
Kirby- Fair 6/4
Link- Fair 6/4
Lucario- Fair 5/5
Lucas- Fair 5/5
Luigi- Fair 5/5
Mario- Good 7/3
Marth- Fair 4/6
Meta Knight- Bad 3/7
Ness- Fair 6/4
Peach- Fair 6/4
Pikachu- Fair 4/6
Pikman & Olimar- Fair 5/5
Pit- Fair 4/6
R.O.B.- Fair 5/5
Samus- Fair 6/4
Sheik- Fair 6/4
Snake- Fair 4/6
Sonic- Fair 6/4
Squirtle- Fair 6/4
Toon Link- Fair 5/5
Wario- Fair 6/4
Wolf- Fair 5/5
Yoshi- Good 7/3
Zelda- Fair 5/5
Zero Suit Samus- Fair 4/6

 

[-Zangetsu-]

Actually, I'm pretty sure that this game's tiers are weighted on the high tier as opposed to the mid and lower tiers this time around. This game in many ways is more balanced than Melee, so it's natural that you would find more characters higher up on the tiers.

Barring that, I'm not gonna lie to you. Your list is pretty grossly inaccurate.

Ike is not top tier for one...he gets destroyed by the top tier characters pretty severely.

Mr. G&W is top tier. Best approach + Ike-like strength without the huge lag + amazing aerial attack utility + D-throw techchase setup + best recovery in the game = top tier. Btw, if you think Zelda is top tier, you should realize that G&W is a LOT better than Zelda and in fact flat out counters her.

Wolf is high tier. His weakness is gimpable recovery. However he's fairly solid in all other areas.

Yoshi and Peach are low tier. Mario and Bowser are high tier.

Ganondorf and Captain Falcon are bottom tier.

Also Falco, Metaknight, and Snake are generally agreed to be around the top tier.

lol thank you for bringing my attention to this, i was just basing it off what i have seen so far. i should have refined my list and researched before i posted, i made the list in just one sitting. If i were to really put together a truly accurate list, it would take at least few days to a weak worths of research.(but to be frank, i just cant imagine putting that much effort into it, not until finals week is over at least )
I probably should have clarified or put up a warning that this was based off personal feelings.
(didnt mean to mis-lead ne one >< )

 

[QuestionMark]

its diddy meta marth gw wolf falco and fox on high or highest. and i dont care what any one else says

 

[BDawgPHD]

its diddy meta marth gw wolf falco and fox on high or highest. and i dont care what any one else says

was that picture really necessary -_-

And not listening to other people is just ignorant :-P

 

[A2ZOMG]

First of all, how do you figure that Captain Falcon is the worst character when Peach is just so bad?

What does Peach have to do with anything? Peach is lousy in Brawl. Captain Falcon sucks beyond belief. It's simple.

Second of all, pick out every character in this game and tell me one thing that they have over everyone else. It's impossible because there are 39 characters, and between Meta Knight and Snake, those two characters have almost the best of everything. Taking those two out, you still have a lot of characters that don't have the best of anything.

Metaknight loses out in terms of raw knockback and weight to several characters (and he can't spike). Snake loses out in terms of aerial game and recovery to several characters. They are NOT the best at everything, even though I agree they are indeed among the best characters in the game.

However, Captain Falcon has almost nothing of which he can say is better than anyone else's. For almost every instance in the game, everyone has a respective attack that can be used more effectively than anything that Falcon has.

Third of all, Falcon still has a pretty good air game. His uair is still pretty good, it can even combo if you do it right, given it can still be airdodged out of, but that just leaves the person open for the next attack. His bair is a pretty solid attack, his nair doesn't combo, but has good knockback, his dair has both good horizontal knockback AND it can spike, depending on how you hit it, and you can still anticipate your opponent's movements and land a knee.

This is the big misconception about Falcon. People think Captain Falcon has a good air game. The truth is his air game is one of the worst in the game, and is only mildly remedied by OK attacks. Hell, Bowser has a better air game than Captain Falcon, and that isn't even his main strong point.

The U-air and B-air are Captain Falcon's only decent aerial attacks. The problem is he has a ton of trouble landing them unless he gets his opponent in the air. Which is hard as hell because he sucks at approaching or grabing people and because the air dodging system is lame. So if he does manage to hit someone ONCE with a U-air, where are the follow up options? It sends people way too far away for any follow up options.

The N-air sucks horribly. The hitbox is extremely precise. Thus you can't ever approach with it. If someone is in the position to be N-aired, you should have hit them with something else. That is how hard it is to hit with the N-air.

The D-air is the most unreliable spike ever. The horizontal knockback can be DIed to survival. Plus, this attack is so slow and has such horrible range Captain Falcon will have trouble connecting with it in the first place. If Captain Falcon doesn't autocancel this attack, it has horrible ending lag. This attack suck balls. Too slow, too little gain. You will almost never land this attack either unless your opponent is bad. Ganondorf however has a great D-air because of the greater range, priority, and the actual ability to kill unlike Falcon's. Also, shield breaking ftw on Ganon's part.

Also, although his recovery is comparatively worse than most of the other characters', it still isn't bad, and he now has two recovery options, and he can't really get gimped like he could in Melee.

Lol, then your opponent just needs to ledgehog more precisely. Or hit him with an aerial attack. His priority on either attack sucks horribly. He will get ledgehogged much more often than almost all characters

All in all, I think players who know how to play Falcon in Melee and also know how to play Brawl can put Falcon's pluses to good use and cover his faults. He might not be tournament viable at the highest level, but I still say he might make mid tier.

You're completely delusional. The problem here is Captain Falcon is trying to be a combo oriented character in a game where combos hardly exist. He's doing everything wrong. His attack speed is below average (I mean seriously, Bowser can get off attacks significantly faster than Falcon), he has absolutely no reliable kill moves, and his recovery still sucks. To make matters worse, his priority got nerfed badly, and so did his grab range. The reason he was good in Melee was because he could link attacks into deadly combos. In Brawl, he lost the setups, and none of his kill moves became less situational. He is worse than Ganondorf (who everyone says is terrible, which is quite true). Ganondorf has advantages. Ganondorf can actually win because he can kill reliably, and HE CAN ****ING COMBO INTO KILLERS. He also can approach, while Falcon can't.

I don't know where you think Captain Falcon has legitimate advantages. He doesn't have any single attack that does anything remarkably good. Every character in Brawl can lay claim to that EXCEPT Captain Falcon.

 

[BDawgPHD]

You're completely delusional. The problem here is Captain Falcon is trying to be a combo oriented character in a game where combos hardly exist. He's doing everything wrong. His attack speed is below average (I mean seriously, Bowser can get off attacks significantly faster than Falcon), he has absolutely no reliable kill moves, and his recovery still sucks. To make matters worse, his priority got nerfed badly, and so did his grab range. The reason he was good in Melee was because he could link attacks into deadly combos. In Brawl, he lost the setups, and none of his kill moves became less situational. He is worse than Ganondorf (who everyone says is terrible, which is quite true). Ganondorf has advantages. Ganondorf can actually win because he can kill reliably, and HE CAN ****ING COMBO INTO KILLERS. He also can approach, while Falcon can't.

I don't know where you think Captain Falcon has legitimate advantages. He doesn't have any single attack that does anything remarkably good. Every character in Brawl can lay claim to that EXCEPT Captain Falcon.

Falcon paauunch?

First of all, your problem is that YOU'RE trying to make Falcon a combo-oriented character in a game where combos are harder to use. If you even looked at it from the perspective of someone who actually knows how to play Brawl, you'll see that Falcon isn't half as bad as yo make him out to be. Second of all, stop trying to make Bowser seem like a sucky *** character. Bowser's attacks are faster than most, and his air game is great, so saying that Falcon's attack speed and aerials aren't as good as Bowser's is like saying that Yoshi isn't as good a character as Meta Knight is..........it's like saying that you're not as good as...well...me

Third of all, uair to uair to uair to uair to knee ftw I still have to find that video =/

Metaknight loses out in terms of raw knockback and weight to several characters (and he can't spike). Snake loses out in terms of aerial game and recovery to several characters. They are NOT the best at everything...

...but between the two of them, they are. Which is what I had stated. On that note, how can every character (except Falcon) be the best at something when between the two of them, Snake and MK are the best at everything, save spiking, which probably goes to DK.

Also, Falcon's dair is only an unreliable spike if you suck.

 

[Corner-Trap]

It seems like every time I make a post about the IC's people just skip over it, then people start acting ignorant when I say the IC's deserve to be in high tier. Here's some more IC love from me.

In 64 throws could KO, in Melee throws could lead into combos, in Brawl most throws neither KO nor lead into combos, so characters with throws that can KO or combo have an advantage. Especially since grabbing is so much easier now because the game is slower, attacks have more lag, shields drop faster, and perfect shielding is easier. The character who takes advantage of this the most are the IC's since they have the best throws in the game. Along with the fact that they have high traction meaning they won't be pushed far back after shielding leaving them in range for a grab. Also there are two of them meaning double the chances to land a grab, and they have easy grab setups. Most characters have to wait on an opponents mistake then punish with a grab, the IC's are able to pressure their opponents and force in a grab. Brawl's engine simply caters more towards the IC's play style. Some people like to say that all the IC's have are grabs, but is that honestly so bad? Of course that isn't true though.

 

[BDawgPHD]

It seems like every time I make a post about the IC's people just skip over it, then people start acting ignorant when I say the IC's deserve to be in high tier. Here's some more IC love from me.

In 64 throws could KO, in Melee throws could lead into combos, in Brawl most throws neither KO nor lead into combos, so characters with throws that can KO or combo have an advantage. Especially since grabbing is so much easier now because the game is slower, attacks have more lag, shields drop faster, and perfect shielding is easier. The character who takes advantage of this the most are the IC's since they have the best throws in the game. Along with the fact that they have high traction meaning they won't be pushed far back after shielding leaving them in range for a grab. Also there are two of them meaning double the chances to land a grab, and they have easy grab setups. Most characters have to wait on an opponents mistake then punish with a grab, the IC's are able to pressure their opponents and force in a grab. Brawl's engine simply caters more towards the IC's play style. Some people like to say that all the IC's have are grabs, but is that honestly so bad? Of course that isn't true though.

Mostly because you're right, also because we haven't seen a broken *** IC's play yet. Also, can you explain how to pressure someone into a grab with IC's? Because Snake is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that can pressure people into grabs.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Okay yeah, I said it myself. Bowser doesn't suck. But anyhow, my point is:

One of the huge reasons Captain Falcon can't be good is because his attack speed is abominable. Along with his priority.

My strategy with Falcon is hit and run. What is yours? Because it better not be trying to follow up with anything after a D-air or a throw.

Assuming combos even were applicable in Brawl, Falcon's setups are too horrible. They send people way too far for him to reasonably follow up with anything. The person will almost certainly be able to get to the ground, where Falcon gets ***** big time.

Now seriously, let's take a close look at Captain Falcon's supposed kill moves and why he has the worst kill options in the entire game.

F-smash: TOO SLOW
U-smash: range sorta sucks, and it's TOO SLOW
D-smash: TOO SLOW
Knee: NO COMBOS INTO IT. Range sucks, and fewer sweetspot frames doesn't help at all.
D-air: TOO SLOW. Too unreliable.
Falcon Punch: TOO SLOW. CAN'T D-AIR INTO IT.

This means the only attacks he can "reliably" kill with are the B-air and the U-air. WOW, only two barely decent attacks that you can't even hit people with when they are on the ground. This means Captain Falcon is one of the most predictable characters in the game.

Basically Captain Falcon will NEVER land any of the mentioned kill attacks unless his opponent screws up like he pressed the button that self destructs the entire planet. He is limited to spamming his few reliable attacks, meaning he'll kill at obscenely high percents compared to most people.

Captain Falcon's D-air would be a reliable spike if it had the range it did in Melee. Which of course it doesn't. You have to hit exactly at the bottom of the foot to spike, and that is harder than you give it credit for. You gotta keep in mind, you aren't the only one moving. Your opponent will likewise be doing everything he can to dodge you the instant he sees you leaping over the ledge doing the "manly man". This makes the D-air so much less reliable, whereas you can take Ganondorf's D-air. Your opponent has to completely avoid the entire freaking hitbox or die. With Falcon, you have so much more leeway when you are recovering against him.

In case you forgot, Captain Falcon also has the worst special attacks in the game. Why do I mention these? Because special attacks are where all characters truly get their uniqueness from. Captain Falcon doesn't have a single good special attack that covers any of his weaknesses. Period. Everyone else can lay claim to having a special attack that helps cover weaknesses.

 

[St. Viers]

My strategy with Falcon is hit and run. What is yours? Because it better not be trying to follow up with anything after a D-air or a throw.

Assuming combos even were applicable in Brawl, Falcon's setups are too horrible. They send people way too far for him to reasonably follow up with anything. The person will almost certainly be able to get to the ground, where Falcon gets ***** big time.

Now seriously, let's take a close look at Captain Falcon's supposed kill moves and why he has the worst kill options in the entire game.

F-smash: TOO SLOW
U-smash: range sorta sucks, and it's TOO SLOW
D-smash: TOO SLOW
Knee: NO COMBOS INTO IT. Range sucks, and fewer sweetspot frames doesn't help at all.
D-air: TOO SLOW. Too unreliable.
Falcon Punch: TOO SLOW. CAN'T D-AIR INTO IT.

This means the only attacks he can "reliably" kill with are the B-air and the U-air. WOW, only two barely decent attacks that you can't even hit people with when they are on the ground. This means Captain Falcon is one of the most predictable characters in the game.

Basically Captain Falcon will NEVER land any of the mentioned kill attacks unless his opponent screws up like he pressed the button that self destructs the entire planet. He is limited to spamming his few reliable attacks, meaning he'll kill at obscenely high percents compared to most people.

Captain Falcon's D-air would be a reliable spike if it had the range it did in Melee. Which of course it doesn't. You have to hit exactly at the bottom of the foot to spike, and that is harder than you give it credit for. You gotta keep in mind, you aren't the only one moving. Your opponent will likewise be doing everything he can to dodge you the instant he sees you leaping over the ledge doing the "manly man".

wait, you mean to say you can't hit people with his b/u-air. No wonder you suck. Also, your "too slow argument" is ridiculous. The only character that have "too slow" attacks are ike and DDD.

Also, you seem to forget that he has an n-air. I don't own brawl, but I'm guessing that if you don't try to FF it it auto-cancels, or has little lag. Just an educated guess though. Oh, and don't forget tilts and jabs...you know, those attacks you use to get damage up so that b/u-air can kill <_<

Also, what you people seem not to be seeing is that brawl is going to be much more team-based. In teams, the fact that the characters are so diverse = well balanced teams where some characters suddenly become better. Characters like MK still own, but snake isn't as good, due to projectiles being less effective, while stronger chars like Ike, Falcon will be able to work with a teammate to get kills.

 

[A2ZOMG]

wait, you mean to say you can't hit people with his b/u-air. No wonder you suck. Also, your "too slow argument" is ridiculous. The only character that have "too slow" attacks are ike and DDD.

My point is Captain Falcon has the hardest time of any other character in the game landing anything that can reasonably kill. He sucks horribly at approaching, and his defensive game is almost nonexistent because he doesn't have priority or grab range. in order to hit with Falcon's B-air or U-air, you need to set someone up in the air, which is the hardest thing for Falcon to accomplish because he doesn't have a single attack that does this reliably without risking getting severely punished.

Ike bypasses the slowness problem by having attacks FASTER than Falcon's that kill. Similar nonsense with Dedede, except he also has projectiles, and MASSIVE range and priority. Falcon however has next to no fast attacks which can reliably kill, and the few moves he's supposed to kill with are much too situational to be applicable, so ultimately he's killing at extremely high percents. Falcon basically acts a lot slower than average, and weaker than average. Fail.

Also, you seem to forget that he has an n-air. I don't own brawl, but I'm guessing that if you don't try to FF it it auto-cancels, or has little lag. Just an educated guess though. Oh, and don't forget tilts and jabs...you know, those attacks you use to get damage up so that b/u-air can kill <_<

Falcon's N-air sucks. You can never approach with it, because the hitbox is extremely narrow and goes too high to hit some characters.

Falcon's tilts are mediocre at best. The F-tilt is of average usability. Unfortunately it doesn't kill. The U-tilt is okay, but too slow. The D-tilt is too punishable even if you do hit.

You are right on one thing. Falcon's jab combo is better in Brawl. THIS IS THE ONLY TRUE BUFF TO FALCON'S OFFENSIVE GAME.

Also, what you people seem not to be seeing is that brawl is going to be much more team-based. In teams, the fact that the characters are so diverse = well balanced teams where some characters suddenly become better. Characters like MK still own, but snake isn't as good, due to projectiles being less effective, while stronger chars like Ike, Falcon will be able to work with a teammate to get kills.

Tiers are based mainly on 1 vs 1s, so that's my focus on arguing why Falcon is the worst character in the game. He might suck slightly less in 2 vs 2s, but that still doesn't eliminate his glaring problems with priority and horrible recovery.

 

[BDawgPHD]

My point is Captain Falcon has the hardest time of any other character in the game landing anything that can reasonably kill. He sucks horribly at approaching, and his defensive game is almost nonexistent because he doesn't have priority or grab range. in order to hit with Falcon's B-air or U-air, you need to set someone up in the air, which is the hardest thing for Falcon to accomplish because he doesn't have a single attack that does this reliably without risking getting severely punished.

Ike bypasses the slowness problem by having attacks FASTER than Falcon's that kill. Similar nonsense with Dedede, except he also has projectiles, and MASSIVE range and priority. Falcon however has next to no fast attacks which can reliably kill, and the few moves he's supposed to kill with are much too situational to be applicable, so ultimately he's killing at extremely high percents. Falcon basically acts a lot slower than average, and weaker than average. Fail.

Falcon's N-air sucks. You can never approach with it, because the hitbox is extremely narrow and goes too high to hit some characters.

Falcon's tilts are mediocre at best. The F-tilt is of average usability. Unfortunately it doesn't kill. The U-tilt is okay, but too slow. The D-tilt is too punishable even if you do hit.

You are right on one thing. Falcon's jab combo is better in Brawl. THIS IS THE ONLY TRUE BUFF TO FALCON'S OFFENSIVE GAME.

Tiers are based mainly on 1 vs 1s, so that's my focus on arguing why Falcon is the worst character in the game. He might suck slightly less in 2 vs 2s, but that still doesn't eliminate his glaring problems with priority and horrible recovery.

I have major problems with your assessments based solely on the fact that Falcon is an entirely usable character in Brawl. I use him and don't have a terrible time using him, and I play against GOOD people. If I of all people can make Falcon semi-good, he can't be the worst character in the game, unless the worst character isn't much different from the 15 characters above him. If that's the case, I'll say that Falcon is among the worst, along with Link, Ganondorf, Ivysaur, Peach, and whoever else you want to throw down in the low/bottom tiers.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Mostly because you're right, also because we haven't seen a broken *** IC's play yet. Also, can you explain how to pressure someone into a grab with IC's? Because Snake is the only one I can think of off the top of my head that can pressure people into grabs.

Have you ever heard of desynching? Simply make one IC do an attack and force your opponent to shield while the other dashes in for a grab. Even if the opponent does get hit by the attack you can still dash in for a grab. Three good attacks that setup for grabs while desynched are ice blocks, squall hammer, and blizzard. Those are also the three main attacks that make up the IC's approach. So they can approach and setup for grabs at the same time, thus pressuring the opponent into a grab setup.

 

[KMB23]

I have major problems with your assessments based solely on the fact that Falcon is an entirely usable character in Brawl. I use him and don't have a terrible time using him, and I play against GOOD people. If I of all people can make Falcon semi-good, he can't be the worst character in the game, unless the worst character isn't much different from the 15 characters above him. If that's the case, I'll say that Falcon is among the worst, along with Link, Ganondorf, Ivysaur, Peach, and whoever else you want to throw down in the low/bottom tiers.

completely off topic, but your sig is hilarious.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have major problems with your assessments based solely on the fact that Falcon is an entirely usable character in Brawl. I use him and don't have a terrible time using him, and I play against GOOD people. If I of all people can make Falcon semi-good, he can't be the worst character in the game, unless the worst character isn't much different from the 15 characters above him. If that's the case, I'll say that Falcon is among the worst, along with Link, Ganondorf, Ivysaur, Peach, and whoever else you want to throw down in the low/bottom tiers.

Of course. We do get stuff like Taj's Mewtwo who can beat Forward's Falco lol. People thought Mewtwo was better than Pichu before too.

I never in fact said Falcon was unusable, because I in fact find him usable. My points emphasize there is nothing truly remarkable that he can do, and when people adapt to Falcon's metagame, you have someone who is easy to read because his attack speed is far below average, and you have someone that can't land decent kill moves because he isn't set up for any combos into those ultra situational kill moves. If you seriously have the mindgames to land Falcon's kill moves, you would have been killing much earlier with characters that have more effective kill options. You haven't actually proved to me that Falcon's "good traits" make him better than anyone. I've looked at other horrible characters, and unlike Falcon they have other traits in their attacks to back up weaknesses. What does Falcon have? Running speed? Come on, running speed is like overall one of the least critical factors in the game.

Good players btw make Ganondorf, Ivysaur, and Peach look good in case you didn't realize. Far better than Falcon though because they can initiate offense in some way whereas Falcon can't without always risking punishment.

 

[MysticKenji]

I have major problems with your assessments based solely on the fact that Falcon is an entirely usable character in Brawl. I use him and don't have a terrible time using him, and I play against GOOD people. If I of all people can make Falcon semi-good, he can't be the worst character in the game, unless the worst character isn't much different from the 15 characters above him. If that's the case, I'll say that Falcon is among the worst, along with Link, Ganondorf, Ivysaur, Peach, and whoever else you want to throw down in the low/bottom tiers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FEzDY4PvXs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOip76euLzI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0B2HNOA0K0

You could win with Bottom Tiers in Melee, too. >_>

 

[BDawgPHD]

But as A2ZOMG pointed out, Falcon has no really good matchups, yet he's still a decent character. Mewtwo was bottom tier if I remember, but he had a good matchup against Fox, as did Pichu.

 

[Pikaville]

Well i think that Pit,Wolf,Marth,Falco and Olimar are nearly unstoppable.Anyone?

 

[sHy)(gUy]

well, i guess everyone thinks my tier list is perfect since no one had anything to say about it.

=)

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Mine's better <_<

Top Tier:
Snake
Meta Knight
Falco
R.O.B.
Marth


High Tier:
Toon Link
Mr. Game and Watch
Diddy Kong
Zelda
Pit
Fox
Wolf
Ice Climbers
Olimar
Pikachu
Zero Suit Samus
Ness
Lucas
King Dedede

Mid Tier:
Lucario
Pokemon Trainer
Sheik
Luigi
Wario
Kirby
Mario
Bowser
Donkey Kong
lke

Low tier :
Peach
Sonic
Yoshi
Samus
Link
Jigglypuff
Captain Falcon
Ganondorf

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

And what exactly makes Link and C Falcon so bad? I have a general Idea but I'd like to get a more indepth analysis.

 

[leelue]

TOP
Snake
MK
Marth
Pit
Toon
Falco
___

HIGH
Olimar
DDD
Wolf
Foxy
Game &
Roberta
Luigi
Diddy Kong
Zero Suit Samus
Zelda
Lucas
Pika
___

MID
Ike
Ice
Ness
Kirby
Lucario
Mario
Pokemon Trainer
Samus

___

LOW
Sonic
Bowser
Puff
Sheik
Peach
Link


BOTTOM
Ganondorf
DK
C Falcon
Wario
Yoshi



Mains= Snake, Olimar, DDD, Samus, Meta, Squeegee, Ganon, Ness, Zero, wario
Yea, even though i main (and love) ganon, i know, that, well, he suks tremendously.

Snakes have infinite resources and many tricks to keep them from being in a great deal of bad matchups (DDD is bad for us though...).
Short hop down airs, full jump Nairs (on taller characters), mines, shield grenading, the godlyness of the up smash, cancelling the dash into an up smash (prevents shield grabbing), C4 mind games, down throw mind games, forward tilts into neutral combos..... the only overall weakness really is the lag he has coming out of some moves (air attacks, i'm looking at you).
Snake=own.

I have yet to face a good wolf (all of the actually skilled opponents i have refuse to play him) but the others who do try do show me that he does have some really interesting strong points.... until i face one that changes my mind, i can't bring myself to place him higher.

Wario and yoshi are garbage.... done and done. 2 or 3 or 4 good attacks does not a good character make. I'm glad general consensus agrees with me.

Falcon can do some good, especially when he is on the stage side of an air battle, since its not the easiest thing to avoid his attacks and recover at the same time (though he is no pit or meta), but beyond that, without getting lucky and punishing silly mistakes (something he actually can do), he fails.

Olimar.... if only our recovery wasn't so easy to crush, he would probably reside at the bottom of the top tier (though pulling off a forward B with the purples to knock people off my ledge is so satisfying)

Samus, um, sure i may be biased, and she isn't so great, but, her good points are thought provoking. The mid-air tether has ridiculous range and has utility in many situations. She is all about spacing- tethers and forward air combos (Fair into most any ground attack) are somewhat useful at keep people out of her hands. one of the only strengths she has is edgeguarding, because she is so **** floaty. Nairs, tethers, Dairs and homing missiles all have thier purposes here. I just wish that landing missiles were a little easier.


There are a couple places on the list i am still hazy on, like zelda vs lucas or diddy vs zero suit, but this should hold up relatively well.

The only proof i can give you guys regarding how legitimate my thoughts are on this game (aka my skill), since i can't play you, involve this long story involving my friend chris. Chris is currently ranked somewhere between 110 and 90 in the nation, and he is fresh off of beating the number 1 (and the former #5 and 6) last week on the MLG gamebattles ranked matches online... (the match between the aforementioned ranked 6 is here- http://youtube.com/watch?v=UNVih3eQ3fg -).
I have a winning record against chris.
Now i know there is a great deal of tournament worthy talent not in this ladder, and plenty of people that can beat (possible ****) me.
but
The point that i am trying to make is, though many claim to be good at this game, and everyone has opinions, you can rest assured that even though what i claim to be true may not be perfect, there are years of competitive smashing and meticulous training in brawl behind every word, and you can take it as a helpful guide from a veteren.

Just remember
Proxy Mine here.............snake here..you grabbed by snake here...ledge here
+ down throw
= zero escape.

 

[Gamer_Mason]

There are a lot of Snake players. Grenades are only meant to force players out of their position, missiles are mostly used for edge guarding, and mines just allow you control space on the stage. Also I think you missed the part where we said Snake beats out everyone at close range because of the power in his tilts.

If he gets in close just walk away :/ that should apply to every character who can reflect ranged attacks and fire their own; Snakes not the fastest character.


Grenades:Side dodge them.

Missiles: Then you can use your characters UP-B twice, unless your Pit or someone like him.

Mines: Roll dodge over them.

Up close:Run away

In air: No idea what you do. Air dodge and then run?

 

[SwordmasterXXXI]

Meh, I decided to update my tier again.

Top
===
Marth
Wolf
Toon Link


High
=====
Falco
Snake
Fox
Game and Watch
Ice Climbers
Pit
Diddy
Metaknight
Pikachu
Ike
Olimar
Luigi
Zelda
Lucario
Lucas
DeDeDe
R.O.B


Mid
===
Sonic
Ness
Link
DK
Squirtle
ZSS
Jiggs
Kirby
Mario
Wario
Shiek
Peach


Low
=====
C. Falcon
Charzard
Yoshi
Bowser
Samus



bottom
===
Ivysaur
Gannondorf

Comments? >_>

 

[MysticKenji]

wtf how is Ivysaur bottom tier?

 

[sHy)(gUy]

@swordmaster

i agree with most of ur list, the biggest problem i see is fox being to high. Switch fox with r.o.b whos amazingly good almost broken imo, way better than fox who is a very average character in this game.

Id also switch sonic and shiek, shiek is still good while sonic really lacks options, sonic just isnt very good.

Pokemon trainer should be 1 character.

Its to early to say about wolf, i think he'll end up high tier though.

Metaknight is way too good in this game i cant see him not being top tier, atleast at first.

 

[Corner-Trap]

If he gets in close just walk away :/ that should apply to every character who can reflect ranged attacks and fire their own; Snakes not the fastest character.


Grenades:Side dodge them.

Missiles: Then you can use your characters UP-B twice, unless your Pit or someone like him.

Mines: Roll dodge over them.

Up close:Run away

In air: No idea what you do. Air dodge and then run?

That sounds easy in theory, but not so much in practice. Nearly every move in the game has some kind of counter to it, but you must understand the difference in saying it, and applying it in a real match. Every projectile can be spot dodged, but that doesn't take away from their usefulness. Snake may not have fast movement speed but his attack speed is great. Saying that you can simply run away from Snake once he gets close, shows that you haven't played many good Snakes.

 

[Grandeza]

@ Corner trap
Can you post a link to your tier list on the other forums? My friend wanted to see it.