Official Brawl Tier Discussion (OP Updated)

[ShadowLink84]

Or rather than a few tournaments, we need time too pass by first.
Its really to early to rely on tournament results since no one can be considered pro at brawl even if they were pro at melee.

 

[RetroBro]

I'm going to attempt to do this in the least bias way possible... Priority Characters will get the top and high tiers right away, along with campers. I do not place these in order, I place these characters in the branch I believe they belong in. (In otherwards, one character on the bottom of the top tier list may be better than one in the middle, vice versa. It's too early to specifically make statements about who's better in which tier)

Remember, this is opinionated... argue with me if you please I'm sure I'm wrong

UPDATE: Moved Iceclimbers from middle tier to high tier.
UPDATE: Sonic Explanation given

Top Tier
Wolf- Wolf has a decent range attack that does not only disrupt the opponent, but also deals 5%-7% Damage. He has long range on most of his attacks and his recovery attacks are not so easy to edge Guard. He's earned the right to be in top tier imo.
King Dedede- One thing that puts Dedede over the edge is his Chain-grab. It's such a simple concept, and it's just sickening when it happens to you. King Dedede may be slow, but they've also given him camping capabilities. He's just too much of a force to be reckoned with sometimes. Powerful (But slow...) attacks, a disjoint, camping capabilities, and chain grabbing... what more could you want in a character .
Toon Link- The best thing about TL is his insane range abilities, three different range attacks, all have good power. You can basically build a wall with his arrows if you were skilled enough. To top the icing on the cake, he has a powerful disjoint. His sword may look small and petty, but the hitbox on it is huge.
Falco- Once again I believe this bad bird deserves a spot on the top tier list purely because of his camping abilities. He's a major pain in the *** with short hoping. Plus he has advantages to certain characters like Shiek, and Captain Falcon, what with that infinite laser combo (Not that this is easy to pull off by any means... ) Although Falco may be put down a notch to the high tier list because of his ground attacks. They got nerfed just a bit in this game imo.
Marth- Marth is a fast, powerful (Tip of the ****, although harder to pull off), disjointed character. His sword overrides nearly all non-disjoint attacks. The range with his attacks is insane. He stays where he was last game, in the top/high tier list for me. He's a very difficult character to deal with if you're a character with neither a disjoint or a range attack.
Metaknight- Ho boy... Meta knight, imo, the most frustrating opponent to face. Such a character is only suited for fanatical berserkers. You barely have to try to hit someone and you do. The fact is, he has a disjoint, and if it was otherwise, he'd be lower in the tiers. It's just not easy to compete with a freaky swordsman that can send out attacks like a teenage boy does masturbating.
Pit- Another Character that can be deemed a "DPS" freak character. It doesn't take much for Pit to rack up damage on you. Most of his attacks can kill you past 100% which is bad, you'll get there fast if you're not careful. Not only does he have a sword (Disjoint), but he has ranged attacks, and they're useful too. You're able to change the direction of them from the start or half way through. Pit deserves a spot in the top or high tier list.

High Tier
Fox-Now most of you might knock me on the back of the head for putting Fox on the high tier list instead of top, but really, he's not as threatening as he was in Melee. His attacks have been dumbed down, they have some lag on them now, and shield shining is gone. His range is still there, annoying as ever, nonetheless, a terrible opponent to have to face.
Diddy Kong- Diddy Kong has some of the best Non-Disjoint game in Brawl. His aerials are pretty insane, along with his range attacks (**** you peeled bananas, why must I slip on you so much!) You can pretty much build a little fortress with two peeled bananas, then fire some peanuts at your **** opponent. Well... not really, but it's a nice gesture you would never have the time to do that in a competitive match.
Ike- Ike, the huge *** 2 handed sword guy that uses one hand to use a 2 handed sword . But seriously, he's one of the easiest characters to pick up. He does massive damage in one swing, and he's got the most powerful (Ganon's elbow may compete) over smash in the game. His aerial game is decent, and of course, the disjoint puts him over the top against non disjoints.
Zelda- Wow, did she improve from melee or what!? Her over B attack is just insane now, it has the hit box of a ****ing monster! Plus her aerial game is just over the top, powerful, and a hit box wonder. Her death kicks scare me sometimes . Although maybe I'm just overly excited about how she improved so much, maybe she's middle?
Rob- Despite me hating this guy, he's got potential to be a high tier character. He's got range, he's got decent hit boxes, and aerials. What more could you ask for (a disjoint I know ) He's got some potential with combo'ing off of some of his attacks, particularly his uptilt (I think I'm right about the up tilt, or is it his up aerial?)
Gay and Watch erm... I mean Game and Watch- Despite me also hating this guy, he's got such freaking priority it pisses me off. All his bull**** with, oh, my key overrides your powerful rock hard head bowser, is just terrible. He's a character with a craptastic range attack, with priority. He's in high/top tier.
Ice Climbers-"The IC's excel in most areas of the game including camping, approaching, edge guarding, etc. Their attacks have lots of range, speed, priority, damage, and knockback. They still get to keep what made them so good in Melee like chaingrabs, and desynching, which is only made better by the slower pace of the game. Plus they recieved serveral buffs in areas that held them back in Melee such as recovery(both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get much more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges) and Nana's AI(she'll actually use UpB and SideB on her own to recovery). The only exploitable weakness the IC's have is that Popo is much less effective without Nana, but gimping Nana is much harder in the game because everyone lives at higher percents, plus as I said before their recovery and Nana's AI is better. Most importantly of all their match-ups are great. Most of them are either fair or good, with only like one or two bad ones that are a 4/6 at most." Quote from: Corner-Trap
Snake- Very unsure about this guy right now, he's got some incredible potential in my eyes though. Range attacks galore is all I can say. Ground tilts/smashes seem ok, and he's got some insane aerials. He's in the high/top tier list.
ZZS- Whatta *****! Her paralysis attacks are terrible if you get caught in them, and she has more than one. Not only that, she's a freaking monster when it comes to speed, that and Aerials...
Lucas- Ugh, I hate to say this, but the pansy has quite a bit of potential. His PK thunder, frost, and fire all pay quite a toll on the defensive types, and his aerials **** the offensive types. The ****er has over all a good arsenal of regular tilts and smashes.

Middle Tier

Pokemon Trainer- Pokemon Trainer has the most potential next to Olimar. Three different pokemon ready to bend at the will of the trainer. I place him near high tier because he can counter characters. Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all have their pro's and con's. Squirtle having insane aerials, Charizard having great ground work, and Ivysaur having some range. They compliment each other very well.
Pikachu- Ah, good ol' Pikachu, you never do change much do you? I may underestimate you though. Your electrical disjoints do have a bit more priority than the pitiful non-disjointed characters, and you have one of the most annoying range attacks in the game. Perhaps you deserve high tier?
Wario- As a Wario player myself, I can say he is definitely one of the best non-disjoint characters in his game (besides his bike). He's got some above average aerials, and some below average smashes. Above all he has one of the top recoveries in the game (allowing some very good edge guarding strategies)
Mario- Again... Mario comes in as an average character, always with his average range fireball attacks, and his average aerials, and his average tilts/smashes. Average average average.
Ness- Ness has improved since last game, he's more maneuverable than in melee, and he still has the aerials that he had in melee. Not to mention his ****in' baseball bat. He's still retained his range attacks, which pits him almost between high and middle.
Lucario - What a complicated character, at one end of the scale he's complete crap from the start, and at the other end of the scale he's a powerhouse with a risk. He has a powerful range attack that doesnt... have that much range, and some decent aerials. The more he get's hurt the stronger he becomes. Some may say he's on the lower end of the spectrum while others say he's at the higher end. I'm not that knowledgeable of this character.
Luigi- Luigi has stayed pretty much the same this round, despite his feeling of inferiority His Karate chop has always been my favorite aerial, and he has some other decent ones. Don't forget his crappy range attack that disappears almost instantly! His ground game isn't as good as it used to be imo, everything seems a tid bit weaker with him. I could be wrong though.
Olimar- Take it from me, who's fighting someone who's maining and training as olimar 24/7. He's not as great as some would like to think. He becomes very vulnerable when airbourne. That means when he's facing disjointed aerial freaks, he gets ****ed. He's recovery is pitiful. All you have to do is hop on the edge, and press down and jump repeatedly till he gets near the edge and he plunges to his death by fault of his stupid UP-B recovery. Now despite that, he has insane camping capabilities, and insane range with his grab (**** YOU BLUE PIKMIN, WHY HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME!). He's a damage racker while a powerhouse at the same time, the only problem is organizing your pikmin. They're random so you could end up with 4 blue pikmin and 2 red, then what do you do? Spend your time throwing them off the edge while your opponent ***** you in the butt? I think not, maybe in time Olimar will move up or down the chain, but right now I think it's best to assume he belongs in the middle. His bad qualities equal out with his good.
Sheik- Oh Sheik, poor poor Sheik, you've gone down the hole haven't you? But not to worry, you're just an average player now! Now, people won't despise you as much! I've got nothing to say other than her prowess in aerials has gone to **** alone with her ground game.
Peach- Now maybe Peach does belong to the high tier list, maybe she doesn't. But I know that when I fought the only peach player I knew, it wasn't overwhelming like she used to be. Her game seems to be the same, but really once you touch her, it's like everything changed slightly. None of her moves connect like they did before and they're slightly weaker (% wise and power wise).
Bowser- Ho-bo a debated character. Slow, but powerful, it's too hard to hit with him period. If it was any easier I'd place him higher. Counter characters such as Ike, and Marth can see his pitifully slow attacks coming a mile away... One thing that puts him over the edge is his suicidal kill. It can really win a match if used correctly. Opponent A has 0% with 2 stock, while you have 153% with 3 stock, use the suicide technique, and you're 1 full stock ahead of him now
Kirby- His game has improved slightly with the dash attack and the double hammer swing. It seems like his entire arsenal of aerials has improved slightly. Not much to say on this little guy.
Samus- I'm boldly disappointed in this character now, she's heavy as hell and her recovery sucks a ****. Her range attacks are weaker, and all her regular ground moves are worse! Wtf were they thinking when they made this character. If I didn't let my biasm kick in, I'd put her in low tier.
Link- He got a punch in the face with his gale boomerang this round... It's so pitiful compared to his past boomerangs, hell, TL got a better boomerang than him It's one thing that really helped him melee, and it's gone. His UP B is no longer an edgeguarding tech and all his attacks are fairly weak. For a disjoint character, he is the worst. All he has working for him is his bombs and arrows...
Yoshi- Yoshi is on the verge of low tier here... Not sure about him too much, they nerfed his down aerial too much, and they nerfed his over B in the air. He drops straight down now, whats the deal with that. He's still got potential with some of his smashes, and he's got some potential with his egg tosses. Perhaps he's fighting for a spot on middle tier.

Low tier
Donkey Kong- He's got the long arms, just not the speed. He's hard to use, but he may deserve a spot on middle tier just yet. His Uair is decent, along with his back aerial. He's quite powerful too... I just don't thing many will go far with this guy. Although they helped him out with his Over B this smash.
Jigglypuff- Her fading tactics are now gone, and she's nothing more than a football to most characters ready to punt her off the stage. Her aerials are still decent, she just can't use her fading to bait the opponent into attacking anymore. That was her strong point. Her sleep attack is now rendered useless. It's harder to hit with it than ever.
Captain Falcon- Falcon... oh falcon your knee is gone! What happened to it, it's incredibly hard to hit with it now! Despite your falcon kick being slightly better, everything else has changed! Your speed now being dominated by sonic (who is also fail) is rendered useless because your attacks are so much worse now! Falcon punch will always remain in my heart though...
Sonic- Sonic's lack of priority and lack of fatal attacks is what kills him in this game. Sure, he's fast, he's unpredictable, but there are simply not enough killer moves with this guy. His Uair, and Bair are his only fatal moves above 130%. Despite his over smash being fatal, it's got terrible range. Anyone that gets hit by that baby needs to smack themselves across the face. Sonic's gotta have to get some awesome glitch to move up to middle or high tier... "Plus using his side taunt is one of the best ways to make sonic annoying!"-Sonic XD
Ganondorf- Christalmighty, you've gone down the ****ter this game. You used to be slighty agile with wavelanding, and your hit boxes are so much smaller! Your aerial games have gone to ****. I can barely land any hits on my opponents with my Over Aerials, my Dairs, or my Bairs. Your warlock punch is far to easy to see (Despite it kicking *** when it does connect) and your warlock kick get's overrided by a simple disjoint... I'm sorry Ganon, but I have to give you up! I've tried playing with you, but you're just not the same as Melee.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Sonic is hot garbage in this game. He literally has no advantages outside of his fast movement speed. His attacks actually come out slow. He does poor damage and can't even KO well to compensate. Most other characters simply beat him out of his attacks because he also has bad range and priority. Seriously though, what does Sonic have to put him above bottom tier?



*corner-trap throws nana out in front of him to get hit by the rock......*

Of course people will have varying opinions, the game is still early and lots of things are being discovered, and theory fighter can be kinda fun sometimes.

EDIT:

Too all the people who are against tier lists in general, or tier list discussions, or anything related to tier lists, why do y'all even post or bother to look at this thread? You already know what to expect so why waste your time and this threads space by posting in it?

*Did i say rock i meant special beam cannon!!!!!!!!!!*lo0lz random but a dbz fan know what i'm talking about.
I think ivoice the opinions for them in a sort of way you guys like tiers i believe in tiers but only after like two years and the pros or upcoming pros use there mains and prove why they desserve to be on a tier list....

 

[Corner-Trap]

I wish you would read my posts. it really helps.

Ignorance is just ignorance, its never bliss.
If you are on tomorrow after 1 p.m. eastern I can always educate you a bit. you can choose ANY of the other bottom/low tier characters while I choose Sonic.
He does good damage. A combo from sonic racks up from 13%-20%.
his attacks are slow? Evidently you have never used anyone outside of Marth if you think this.

Why must I use a low/bottom tier character? Just because Sonic does well against other lower tiered characters honestly isn't saying much when he still does poorly against the higher tiered characters. Overall Sonics attacks are poor when compared to about every other character, and they do have more startup lag than they need to have. Also I thought my sig and av would've made you think I played the IC's, not Marth

 

[Sonic XD]

Good improvement to the tier list, but with the side taunt added. Nice work. Sonic needs to be bumped up to atleast middle or low tier.

 

[Sonic XD]

Why must I use a low/bottom tier character? Just because Sonic does well against other lower tiered characters honestly isn't saying much when he still does poorly against the higher tiered characters. Overall Sonics attacks are poor when compared to about every other character, and they do have more startup lag than they need to have. Also I thought my sig and av would've made you think I played the IC's, not Marth

Sonic actually is good against some higher tier characters. Sonic's recovery gimping ability makes him good against characters like olimar.

 

[PIMPSLAP]

Marth is still broken i ken comboed nine times in one match just slower now and the game as a whole is slower so yeah.... thats just my opinion though.
Porkay? no olimar pwns sonic.! also i hate olimar so yeah thats not me saying that because i use him.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Sonic actually is good against some higher tier characters. Sonic's recovery gimping ability makes him good against characters like olimar.

Can you please post all of Sonic's match-ups? I'd like to see how you think he does overall. And a lot of characters edgeguard and gimp much better than Sonic.

Marth is still broken i ken comboed nine times in one match just slower now and the game as a whole is slower so yeah.... thats just my opinion though.

If I remember correctly M2K already confirmed that the Ken combo no longer works. If you do happen to get it off then that means your opponent didn't DI or air dodged properly.

 

[Sonic XD]

Porkay? no olimar pwns sonic.! also i hate olimar so yeah thats not me saying that because i use him.

Olimar is not that good against sonic. Sonic has an advantage over olimar because his recovery is able to be gimped.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Its stupid. Its crap. Tier list discussion is basically made up of fools who do not even attempt trying to utilze the many strategies in character discussion for any character before judging.
/rant
Now that it is done.

Sonic destroys everyone in low tier. I've made the exact same argument the past couple of pages and each time people ignore me like I am some mad blind man on the streets. Quite frustrating considering its logical and intelligent.
Oh but let me restate everything again.


sonic=great range
Obviously you would not know this since you do not play him enough. For one his speed makes range a little issue and his homing attack is an excelent move for punishing laggy moves. His Spin dash has MASSIVE priority making it ideal for approaching and he also has wicked aerial speed when you jump cancel his spindash that surpasses a large amount of the cast. It enhances his approaching game something that DK cannot even do.
I haven't pulled it off yet or tested but Sonic's Fair is apparently a reflector during certain frames.

Lack of priority hurts him NOT killing ability since MK has the same problem. Ifyou played him extensively, you would realize his game lies in chasing. Something that a large amount of teh cast cannot do.. Knock your opponent off, Fair them away, Bair them away, Spring them away. Sonic can do it far more extensively than the majority of the cast.


his aerial game is better than Snake's who many people constantly refer to as top tier. (I guess its the aneurysms but thats just me)
He gimps the crap out of nearly everyone. the only people he cannot gimp is,
Pit, R.O.B and other characters whose recovery is basically amazing. Even then a Fair at 100% off the arena is practically gauranteed to kill your opponent unless they have an awesome recovery.

Everyone who isn't Marth,Peach,Olimar,Toon Link,Luigi,MetaKnight ALL have issues keeping up with his game especially when Sonic becomes unpredictable. yet people still place him on bottom and place characters like Snake who is obviously mid tier or high tier at best in top.
Christ its like when marth first appeared and everyone dumped him as low.

Whatever its just gonna get ignored again.

the only explanation for this would be that your gigantic stuffed sonic dolls block the view of everyone who plays against you, so you win while they cant see the screen. you state that it will be ignored, and it should be because most of that is in no way fact. my friend mains sonic and plays rob as a secondary, I main DK. he has never beaten me with sonic, ever. and its not a question of skill because his rob seems to be on par with my dk, and I've won just over half the DK vs rob matches. He has never gimped me as sonic because my up b gets super armor and he has so little control over the speed that I just have to time the first attack right and he'lll get knocked back or miss and I'll grab the ledge without problems.

on the topic of metaknights kill moves, his down smash, fsmash, and upb kills quicker and comes out faster than sonics back air or fsmash

and snakes airs are pretty good, but his sliding usmash, his great range and killing power are what got him placed high or top on most lists

sonic
range = crap
killing potential = crap
priority = crap
speed = great
damage = crap
attack speed = average
throws = subpar

remove your fanboyism for a bit, if you want to main him, great. but at least admit that he's not top tier, probably not even mid tier.

I'll go ahead and admit that dk, my main, with all his buffs that you don't even take into account because you've only played a computer dk, is most likely mid tier unless we find a groundbreaking new technique

 

[RetroBro]

Olimar does better against sonic, but this is about recovery. Olimar's recovery is not very good.

No it's the worst in the game. I would place him lower, but I didn't in fear that some people may argue that he is amazing. He's one of the best campers in the game. But all you have to do is grip the ledge to get him to die.

 

[Sonic XD]

the only explanation for this would be that your gigantic stuffed sonic dolls block the view of everyone who plays against you, so you win while they cant see the screen. you state that it will be ignored, and it should be because most of that is in no way fact. my friend mains sonic and plays rob as a secondary, I main DK. he has never beaten me with sonic, ever. and its not a question of skill because his rob seems to be on par with my dk, and I've won just over half the DK vs rob matches. He has never gimped me as sonic because my up b gets super armor and he has so little control over the speed that I just have to time the first attack right and he'lll get knocked back or miss and I'll grab the ledge without problems.

on the topic of metaknights kill moves, his down smash, fsmash, and upb kills quicker and comes out faster than sonics back air or fsmash

and snakes airs are pretty good, but his sliding usmash, his great range and killing power are what got him placed high or top on most lists

sonic
range = crap
killing potential = crap
priority = crap
speed = great
damage = crap
attack speed = average
throws = subpar

remove your fanboyism for a bit, if you want to main him, great. but at least admit that he's not top tier, probably not even mid tier.

I'll go ahead and admit that dk, my main, with all his buffs that you don't even take into account because you've only played a computer dk, is most likely mid tier unless we find a groundbreaking new technique

Well, you haven't mentioned sonic's recovery and gimping.

 

[WolfsHowl]

a quick tier list based on my judgment of all the characters so far would be something like.....

Top Tier
Wolf
Marth
Metaknight
Toon Link

High Tier
King Dedede
Ike
Diddy Kong
Falco
Pit

Middle Tier
Lucario
Lucas
Kirby
Olimar
Pokemon Trainer
Solid Snake
Sonic
Luigi
Wario
Jigglypuff
Bowser
Pikachu
Yoshi
Mario
Game and Watch
Link

Low Tier
Fox
Samus
Ice Climbers
Donkey Kong
Ness
Peach
Zelda

Bottom Tier
Ganondorf
Captain Falcon



I've had the game since a week after it came out, and haven't played a LOT with all the characters, but I've played with all of them, and high tier and middle tier characters are probably very close. Top Tier are Top Tier though.

 

[Corner-Trap]

Olimar is not that good against sonic. Sonic has an advantage over olimar because his recovery is able to be gimped.

By this logic then we can say that anyone does well against Olimar since they can all gimp his recovery. And as I said before there are tons of characters with much better edge guarding and gimping abilities, Sonic is only average in this area.

No it's the worst in the game. I would place him lower, but I didn't in fear that some people may argue that he is amazing. He's one of the best campers in the game. But all you have to do is grip the ledge to get him to die.

This is why Olimar players pick stages with walk off ledges. Also Ivysaur's recovery is even worse than Olimars'.

 

[-Hoggle-]

Characters without projectiles other than marth and meta don't seem to be that good in my opinion.

 

[RetroBro]

Well, you haven't mentioned sonic's recovery and gimping.

His recovery is decent, but the thing is... Recovery is not a big deal in this game. Almost 90% of the characters can make it back no problem.

 

[Embrio]

Yeah but thats the fault of the game, chars MUST have a projectile and good pokes otherwise your garbage. Since this game depends so much on camping thats all u can really do.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Why must I use a low/bottom tier character? Just because Sonic does well against other lower tiered characters honestly isn't saying much when he still does poorly against the higher tiered characters. Overall Sonics attacks are poor when compared to about every other character, and they do have more startup lag than they need to have. Also I thought my sig and av would've made you think I played the IC's, not Marth

I said Marth since Marth has a wicked Fair.
you MUST use a character before you can designate their tier placement, Strategy is a more important part of this game.
Sonic's attacks as I said are actually average. you compare start up time and cool down time as well as the actual hit frames of the attack and you find that his attack speed is roughly around the same as Mario's.

Sonic's strategy is all about chasing and pressuring and he has an excellent approach game. Something many of the low and bottom tier characters absolutely lack.

Sonic can combo, approach but he cannot kill at low percentages.
The majority of the mid tier characters can hardly combo even at low percentages while Sonic can continously do so at higher percentages while setting them up for the kill. That and because of his good pressure game he can really keep his opponent busy even when they are on the attack.

Spacing is also something he can handle due to his speed and spindashdancing can make him really difficult to predict in movement. (I havne't pulled it off yet but there are videos of it)

As I said before Sonic isn't low tier because he does too well.
If you compare the majorities of Sonic;s matchups you'll find that he only starts to have problems when it comes to thehigher middle tier characters characters and up and even then he does have decent match ups with Pit and Marth.

his worst matchs up are actually Luigi,Olimar and WW Link. Simply because their priority is something that is difficult to overcome as well as the fact that for some odd reason Luigi's fireballs bypass the priority of the spin dash. Something that is odd seeing as they cancel out against Samus' missiles which Sonic passes through easily.

His recovery is decent, but the thing is... Recovery is not a big deal in this game. Almost 90% of the characters can make it back no problem.

Sonic's recovery is on par with ROB's and Pit's AND it gimps.
Something that most characters cannot make claim to.

Yeah but thats the fault of the game, chars MUST have a projectile and good pokes otherwise your garbage. Since this game depends so much on camping thats all u can really do.

Marth says otherwise.

You don't need to be an excellent camper.
You need to be capable of approaching, comboing, killing, gimping and have a variety of options in your strategies. If you are using DK you'll never approach an Olimar. On the other hand if you're Marth you can.

By this logic then we can say that anyone does well against Olimar since they can all gimp his recovery. And as I said before there are tons of characters with much better edge guarding and gimping abilities, Sonic is only average in this area.

name a few please? I don't main other gimpers besides Sonic currently.

 

[Sonic XD]

Camping is not something that applies that much in 1 vs 1, because it usually takes skill rather than camping. Although camping is still useful even in 1 vs 1.

 

[sunflash]

first of all, you put ike in the middle and "southern half" of the tier list, meanwhile h should be in the top tiers, since hes a very strong character, just a little slow. Lucario should be a middle tier also, hes pretty good.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Ike is middle and close to low.
High is never gonna happen for him.

 

[Hachibimaru]

I normally see Game and Watch on High Tier or Mid Tier on these lists but never really in depth reason on his placement. So I guess what I'm asking is, what do people think of Mr. Game & Watch?

 

[WolfsHowl]

Ike is middle and close to low.
High is never gonna happen for him.

why? he definitely is not low. one of the better characters i've seen, even in 1v1.

 

[RetroBro]

Ike is middle and close to low.
High is never gonna happen for him.

Ike is one of the most simplistic characters, and he's got a disjoint. He's not close to low. He's between mid and high. He can kill people at 50-60%.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Well, you haven't mentioned sonic's recovery and gimping.

i have mentioned that he hasnt been able to gimp my dk, and honestly his lack of control in the air seems to hurt his gimping, anyone with tether recovery or above average horizontal recovery, or enough vertical recovery to come in too low for sonic, will not get gimped. his recovery his pretty good, but he is vulnerable to get ledge guarded unless he wants to risk sweet spotting the ledge, which, if timed wrong will get him stuck under the stage, and if you go for the sweetspot they can just grab the ledge and you'll be unable to hit them off

all around I don't see him with as much potential that you or a few others do, the fact that he has three moves that kill and only the fsmash can kill my dk before 170%

 

[VEC]

Pikachu Luigi, what tier would you guys put them as?

 

[Atacusbebop123]

Ike is one of the most simplistic characters, and he's got a disjoint. He's not close to low. He's between mid and high. He can kill people at 50-60%.

I agree Ike is never out of any match if you know what you're doing. Other than the reasons listed above, you could go from 0-60% in a few hits. Ike is at least high medium or low low low high.

 

[RetroBro]

I'm going to attempt to do this in the least bias way possible... Priority Characters will get the top and high tiers right away, along with campers. I do not place these in order, I place these characters in the branch I believe they belong in. (In otherwards, one character on the bottom of the top tier list may be better than one in the middle, vice versa. It's too early to specifically make statements about who's better in which tier)

Remember, this is opinionated... argue with me if you please I'm sure I'm wrong

UPDATE: Moved Sonic up 3 spots
UPDATE: Moved Luigi up 3 spots
UPDATE: Moved Ike down 7 spots

Top Tier
Wolf- Wolf has a decent range attack that does not only disrupt the opponent, but also deals 5%-7% Damage. He has long range on most of his attacks and his recovery attacks are not so easy to edge Guard. He's earned the right to be in top tier imo.
King Dedede- One thing that puts Dedede over the edge is his Chain-grab. It's such a simple concept, and it's just sickening when it happens to you. King Dedede may be slow, but they've also given him camping capabilities. He's just too much of a force to be reckoned with sometimes. Powerful (But slow...) attacks, a disjoint, camping capabilities, and chain grabbing... what more could you want in a character .
Toon Link- The best thing about TL is his insane range abilities, three different range attacks, all have good power. You can basically build a wall with his arrows if you were skilled enough. To top the icing on the cake, he has a powerful disjoint. His sword may look small and petty, but the hitbox on it is huge.
Falco- Once again I believe this bad bird deserves a spot on the top tier list purely because of his camping abilities. He's a major pain in the *** with short hoping. Plus he has advantages to certain characters like Shiek, and Captain Falcon, what with that infinite laser combo (Not that this is easy to pull off by any means... ) Although Falco may be put down a notch to the high tier list because of his ground attacks. They got nerfed just a bit in this game imo.
Marth- Marth is a fast, powerful (Tip of the ****, although harder to pull off), disjointed character. His sword overrides nearly all non-disjoint attacks. The range with his attacks is insane. He stays where he was last game, in the top/high tier list for me. He's a very difficult character to deal with if you're a character with neither a disjoint or a range attack.
Metaknight- Ho boy... Meta knight, imo, the most frustrating opponent to face. Such a character is only suited for fanatical berserkers. You barely have to try to hit someone and you do. The fact is, he has a disjoint, and if it was otherwise, he'd be lower in the tiers. It's just not easy to compete with a freaky swordsman that can send out attacks like a teenage boy does masturbating.
Pit- Another Character that can be deemed a "DPS" freak character. It doesn't take much for Pit to rack up damage on you. Most of his attacks can kill you past 100% which is bad, you'll get there fast if you're not careful. Not only does he have a sword (Disjoint), but he has ranged attacks, and they're useful too. You're able to change the direction of them from the start or half way through. Pit deserves a spot in the top or high tier list.

High Tier
Fox-Now most of you might knock me on the back of the head for putting Fox on the high tier list instead of top, but really, he's not as threatening as he was in Melee. His attacks have been dumbed down, they have some lag on them now, and shield shining is gone. His range is still there, annoying as ever, nonetheless, a terrible opponent to have to face.
Diddy Kong- Diddy Kong has some of the best Non-Disjoint game in Brawl. His aerials are pretty insane, along with his range attacks (**** you peeled bananas, why must I slip on you so much!) You can pretty much build a little fortress with two peeled bananas, then fire some peanuts at your **** opponent. Well... not really, but it's a nice gesture you would never have the time to do that in a competitive match.
Zelda- Wow, did she improve from melee or what!? Her over B attack is just insane now, it has the hit box of a ****ing monster! Plus her aerial game is just over the top, powerful, and a hit box wonder. Her death kicks scare me sometimes . Although maybe I'm just overly excited about how she improved so much, maybe she's middle?
Rob- Despite me hating this guy, he's got potential to be a high tier character. He's got range, he's got decent hit boxes, and aerials. What more could you ask for (a disjoint I know ) He's got some potential with combo'ing off of some of his attacks, particularly his uptilt (I think I'm right about the up tilt, or is it his up aerial?)
Gay and Watch erm... I mean Game and Watch- Despite me also hating this guy, he's got such freaking priority it pisses me off. All his bull**** with, oh, my key overrides your powerful rock hard head bowser, is just terrible. He's a character with a craptastic range attack, with priority. He's in high/top tier.
Ice Climbers-"The IC's excel in most areas of the game including camping, approaching, edge guarding, etc. Their attacks have lots of range, speed, priority, damage, and knockback. They still get to keep what made them so good in Melee like chaingrabs, and desynching, which is only made better by the slower pace of the game. Plus they recieved serveral buffs in areas that held them back in Melee such as recovery(both IC's can grab the ledge at once, you can get much more height off of SideB, and UpB now sweetspots ledges) and Nana's AI(she'll actually use UpB and SideB on her own to recovery). The only exploitable weakness the IC's have is that Popo is much less effective without Nana, but gimping Nana is much harder in the game because everyone lives at higher percents, plus as I said before their recovery and Nana's AI is better. Most importantly of all their match-ups are great. Most of them are either fair or good, with only like one or two bad ones that are a 4/6 at most." Quote from: Corner-Trap
Snake- Very unsure about this guy right now, he's got some incredible potential in my eyes though. Range attacks galore is all I can say. Ground tilts/smashes seem ok, and he's got some insane aerials. He's in the high/top tier list.
ZZS- Whatta *****! Her paralysis attacks are terrible if you get caught in them, and she has more than one. Not only that, she's a freaking monster when it comes to speed, that and Aerials...
Lucas- Ugh, I hate to say this, but the pansy has quite a bit of potential. His PK thunder, frost, and fire all pay quite a toll on the defensive types, and his aerials **** the offensive types. The ****er has over all a good arsenal of regular tilts and smashes.
Ike- Ike, the huge *** 2 handed sword guy that uses one hand to use a 2 handed sword . But seriously, he's one of the easiest characters to pick up. He does massive damage in one swing, and he's got the most powerful (Ganon's elbow may compete) over smash in the game. His aerial game is decent, and of course, the disjoint puts him over the top against non disjoints.

Middle Tier

Pokemon Trainer- Pokemon Trainer has the most potential next to Olimar. Three different pokemon ready to bend at the will of the trainer. I place him near high tier because he can counter characters. Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur all have their pro's and con's. Squirtle having insane aerials, Charizard having great ground work, and Ivysaur having some range. They compliment each other very well.
Pikachu- Ah, good ol' Pikachu, you never do change much do you? I may underestimate you though. Your electrical disjoints do have a bit more priority than the pitiful non-disjointed characters, and you have one of the most annoying range attacks in the game. Perhaps you deserve high tier?
Luigi- Luigi has stayed pretty much the same this round, despite his feeling of inferiority His Karate chop has always been my favorite aerial, and he has some other decent ones. Don't forget his crappy range attack that disappears almost instantly! His ground game isn't as good as it used to be imo, everything seems a tid bit weaker with him. I could be wrong though.
Wario- As a Wario player myself, I can say he is definitely one of the best non-disjoint characters in his game (besides his bike). He's got some above average aerials, and some below average smashes. Above all he has one of the top recoveries in the game (allowing some very good edge guarding strategies)
Mario- Again... Mario comes in as an average character, always with his average range fireball attacks, and his average aerials, and his average tilts/smashes. Average average average.
Ness- Ness has improved since last game, he's more maneuverable than in melee, and he still has the aerials that he had in melee. Not to mention his ****in' baseball bat. He's still retained his range attacks, which pits him almost between high and middle.
Lucario - What a complicated character, at one end of the scale he's complete crap from the start, and at the other end of the scale he's a powerhouse with a risk. He has a powerful range attack that doesnt... have that much range, and some decent aerials. The more he get's hurt the stronger he becomes. Some may say he's on the lower end of the spectrum while others say he's at the higher end. I'm not that knowledgeable of this character.
Olimar- Take it from me, who's fighting someone who's maining and training as olimar 24/7. He's not as great as some would like to think. He becomes very vulnerable when airbourne. That means when he's facing disjointed aerial freaks, he gets ****ed. He's recovery is pitiful. All you have to do is hop on the edge, and press down and jump repeatedly till he gets near the edge and he plunges to his death by fault of his stupid UP-B recovery. Now despite that, he has insane camping capabilities, and insane range with his grab (**** YOU BLUE PIKMIN, WHY HAVE YOU BETRAYED ME!). He's a damage racker while a powerhouse at the same time, the only problem is organizing your pikmin. They're random so you could end up with 4 blue pikmin and 2 red, then what do you do? Spend your time throwing them off the edge while your opponent ***** you in the butt? I think not, maybe in time Olimar will move up or down the chain, but right now I think it's best to assume he belongs in the middle. His bad qualities equal out with his good.
Sheik- Oh Sheik, poor poor Sheik, you've gone down the hole haven't you? But not to worry, you're just an average player now! Now, people won't despise you as much! I've got nothing to say other than her prowess in aerials has gone to **** alone with her ground game.
Peach- Now maybe Peach does belong to the high tier list, maybe she doesn't. But I know that when I fought the only peach player I knew, it wasn't overwhelming like she used to be. Her game seems to be the same, but really once you touch her, it's like everything changed slightly. None of her moves connect like they did before and they're slightly weaker (% wise and power wise).
Bowser- Ho-bo a debated character. Slow, but powerful, it's too hard to hit with him period. If it was any easier I'd place him higher. Counter characters such as Ike, and Marth can see his pitifully slow attacks coming a mile away... One thing that puts him over the edge is his suicidal kill. It can really win a match if used correctly. Opponent A has 0% with 2 stock, while you have 153% with 3 stock, use the suicide technique, and you're 1 full stock ahead of him now
Kirby- His game has improved slightly with the dash attack and the double hammer swing. It seems like his entire arsenal of aerials has improved slightly. Not much to say on this little guy.
Samus- I'm boldly disappointed in this character now, she's heavy as hell and her recovery sucks a ****. Her range attacks are weaker, and all her regular ground moves are worse! Wtf were they thinking when they made this character. If I didn't let my biasm kick in, I'd put her in low tier.
Link- He got a punch in the face with his gale boomerang this round... It's so pitiful compared to his past boomerangs, hell, TL got a better boomerang than him It's one thing that really helped him melee, and it's gone. His UP B is no longer an edgeguarding tech and all his attacks are fairly weak. For a disjoint character, he is the worst. All he has working for him is his bombs and arrows...
Yoshi- Yoshi is on the verge of low tier here... Not sure about him too much, they nerfed his down aerial too much, and they nerfed his over B in the air. He drops straight down now, whats the deal with that. He's still got potential with some of his smashes, and he's got some potential with his egg tosses. Perhaps he's fighting for a spot on middle tier.

Low tier
Donkey Kong- He's got the long arms, just not the speed. He's hard to use, but he may deserve a spot on middle tier just yet. His Uair is decent, along with his back aerial. He's quite powerful too... I just don't thing many will go far with this guy. Although they helped him out with his Over B this smash.
Sonic- Sonic's lack of priority and lack of fatal attacks is what kills him in this game. Sure, he's fast, he's unpredictable, but there are simply not enough killer moves with this guy. His Uair, and Bair are his only fatal moves above 130%. Despite his over smash being fatal, it's got terrible range. Anyone that gets hit by that baby needs to smack themselves across the face. Sonic's gotta have to get some awesome glitch to move up to middle or high tier... "Plus using his side taunt is one of the best ways to make sonic annoying!"-Sonic XD
Jigglypuff- Her fading tactics are now gone, and she's nothing more than a football to most characters ready to punt her off the stage. Her aerials are still decent, she just can't use her fading to bait the opponent into attacking anymore. That was her strong point. Her sleep attack is now rendered useless. It's harder to hit with it than ever.
Captain Falcon- Falcon... oh falcon your knee is gone! What happened to it, it's incredibly hard to hit with it now! Despite your falcon kick being slightly better, everything else has changed! Your speed now being dominated by sonic (who is also fail) is rendered useless because your attacks are so much worse now! Falcon punch will always remain in my heart though...
Ganondorf- Christalmighty, you've gone down the ****ter this game. You used to be slighty agile with wavelanding, and your hit boxes are so much smaller! Your aerial games have gone to ****. I can barely land any hits on my opponents with my Over Aerials, my Dairs, or my Bairs. Your warlock punch is far to easy to see (Despite it kicking *** when it does connect) and your warlock kick get's overrided by a simple disjoint... I'm sorry Ganon, but I have to give you up! I've tried playing with you, but you're just not the same as Melee.

 

[Sonic XD]

Sonic should have been moved up more. I do want to talk about samus right now. She is probably not that low for mid tiers. Samus is heavy, but has very good air control. Her screw attack recovery can go higher than Zamus down jump. Samus also has a zair, which is one of the best moves in the game. It is the longest reach non-projectile in the game, not to mention beam cancelling. The Zair is also disjointed, giving it a really high priority. You might wanna put Samus a bit higher on your tier list. Oh and Zamus recovery is not as good as Samus recovery.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I agree Ike is never out of any match if you know what you're doing. Other than the reasons listed above, you could go from 0-60% in a few hits. Ike is at least high medium or low low low high.

unless you are using Bowser/ganandorf/Captain Falcon or anyone who must get close or is slower or close to Ike's speed. You'll get boned. Hard.

High tier is laghable.

Bowser can kill at 50-60% but he isn't high tier is he?
Stupid n00bs.


Link's gale boomerang is also an improvement over the last. yes it doesn't hit on the way back but it now pushes the opponent from the edge when thrown at the right distance. It has less knock back last game with slightly lesser damage but it can actually be comboed into more easily.

low mid tier for him. He does too well againstthe low tier characters and bottom characters in your list.
Same for Sonic who should be in mid tier for the same reasons.

 

[Sonic XD]

unless you are using Bowser/ganandorf/Captain Falcon or anyone who must get close or is slower or close to Ike's speed. You'll get boned. Hard.

High tier is laghable.

Bowser can kill at 50-60% but he isn't high tier is he?
Stupid n00bs.

You forgot to mention Ike is easily campable.

 

[ShadowLink84]

oh thats right thanks for reminding me.
yeah Ike gets ***** by anyone with a semi decent projectile.

Ike=low mid close to low tier.

 

[RetroBro]

unless you are using Bowser/ganandorf/Captain Falcon or anyone who must get close or is slower or close to Ike's speed. You'll get boned. Hard.

High tier is laghable.

Bowser can kill at 50-60% but he isn't high tier is he?
Stupid n00bs.


Link's gale boomerang is also an improvement over the last. yes it doesn't hit on the way back but it now pushes the opponent from the edge when thrown at the right distance. It has less knock back last game with slightly lesser damage but it can actually be comboed into more easily.

low mid tier for him. He does too well againstthe low tier characters and bottom characters in your list.
Same for Sonic who should be in mid tier for the same reasons.

Do you even take into account Ike's disjoint and hitboxes. High tier is not laughable, he's thee best heavy character in the game by far. He has three different spikes for edgeguarding and he's fairly easy to play. He's midtier at worst. A bowser to Ike comparison is stupid because Bowser DOES NOT HAVE A DISJOINT! Christ, do you realize how much priority his sword has? A very feeble comparison.

Hmm, I've dispised link's gale boomerang because of that particular reason. The gale boomerang does not make the opponent flinch on the way back, which is why I find it terrible. It's like asking other characters to come and hit you. You could even shield in on the way and shield grab out of Link's combo. But we agree, he is low mid Tier.

I need more evidence for sonic. The lack of priority and lack of fatal attacks kills him. Characters with disjoints and camping abilities **** him.

EDIT: I forgot to place Ike further near Mid-Tier to begin with, changing that. (Moved him down 7 spots)

 

[Sonic XD]

Wait, are you forgetting samus?

 

[RetroBro]

Wait, are you forgetting samus?

My bad, I'll reread your arguement in a second and edit this post.

Ah, I had completely forgotten about her Neutral Aerial. Good point. It does have a lot priority, and I should take in account of her projectile game, because that's what she's best at. I'm just disapointed at how heavy she has become. I'll bump her up and change her explanation a bit.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Do you even take into account Ike's disjoint and hitboxes. High tier is not laughable, he's thee best heavy character in the game by far. He has three different spikes for edgeguarding and he's fairly easy to play. He's midtier at worst. A bowser to Ike comparison is stupid because Bowser DOES NOT HAVE A DISJOINT! Christ, do you realize how much priority his sword has? A very feeble comparison.

Hmm, I've dispised link's gale boomerang because of that particular reason. The gale boomerang does not make the opponent flinch on the way back, which is why I find it terrible. It's like asking other characters to come and hit you. You could even shield in on the way and shield grab out of Link's combo. But we agree, he is low mid Tier.

I need more evidence for sonic. The lack of priority and lack of fatal attacks kills him. Characters with disjoints and camping abilities **** him.

High tier is laughable.
**** the disjointed hitboxes. You can't do a **** thing if you can't even get near to your opponent or can't even hit them.
he is comparable to bowser because just like bowser he has a lot of power but he has no speed to his attacks.
His jabs and Bair are the only things that are fast. His recovery is crap, anyone with half a brain WILL gimp you to your doom. Disjointed boxes are not a reason enugh for himt o be there.
he lacks combos.
An approach game.
A good recovery.
Speed.
Aerial ability.
Ground ability.

you choose Ike against ANYONE who attacks faster, moves faster, has more ooptions to approach and Ike gets boned.
Yes he has priority but priority without speed, without being able to approach your opponent means you are going to lose to someone whose skill is less than yours.

Hmm, I've dispised link's gale boomerang because of that particular reason. The gale boomerang does not make the opponent flinch on the way back, which is why I find it terrible. It's like asking other characters to come and hit you. You could even shield in on the way and shield grab out of Link's combo. But we agree, he is low mid Tier.

Then it would be terrible in melee since there weren't many oppurtunities to catch an opponent with it on the way back.
The gale is an imprvoement since it pulls the opponent close. you can use it to edgeguard as well.
His bombs are improved his arrows are faster.

He lost his combos though and his spin attack of sexyness. personally I would have him in low mid tier simply cause he is hard to approach even with Marth and cause he has a sword.
Sword=awesome
If you have no sword.
you are not awesome.
unless you are me.
Or whoever I choose to be.
in that case.
you=awesome
but only cause of me
/joke ended.

 

[Hero Reborn]

Team Lothgar, I don't totally agree with your tier list, but at the same time I love it. I main Sonic, so it hurts to see him placed at the bottom, however I'm pleased at how much thought and effort you put into the list to the point that I won't argue against it too much. It's a very respectable list to say the least. Sonic is low tier at low level play and much of what everyone has said against him is partially true. What people don't seem to get is that you can't play Sonic with the, "Hit to kill" mentality and any real Sonic player knows that, and that sucks. Sonic is a character with a genre all his own. Sonic can match up with the best, but that depends solely on the player's wit. I don't think a character like Sonic even belongs on a tier list, but if I where to place him anywhere it would be top-bottom. Not because he sucks, but because he's a pain to master and use effectively. This is my unbiased opinion.

 

[BananaNut]

Team Lothgar, I don't totally agree with your tier list, but at the same time I love it. I main Sonic, so it hurts to see him placed at the bottom, however I'm pleased at how much thought and effort you put into the list to the point that I won't argue against it too much. It's a very respectable list to say the least. Sonic is low tier at low level play and much of what everyone has said against him is partially true. What people don't seem to get is that you can't play Sonic with the, "Hit to kill" mentality and any real Sonic player knows that, and that sucks. Sonic is a character with a genre all his own. Sonic can match up with the best, but that depends solely on the player's wit. I don't think a character like Sonic even belongs on a tier list, but if I where to place him anywhere it would be top-bottom. Not because he sucks, but because he's a pain to master and use effectively. This is my unbiased opinion.

That's the truth man. A sonic main myself I think of it as someone with a rapeir agaist a guy with a two handed sword. Sonic has to attack and withdraw stratigically, and outwit his opponent. The otherguy just pretty much swings away.

I say low-mid for sonic/High-low

 

[I 0022 I]

My apologies, but what is a disjoint. I have heard nothing of it until this page of this thread and now it seems to be everywhere. I would be very grateful if someone could explain.

 

[RetroBro]

Team Lothgar, I don't totally agree with your tier list, but at the same time I love it. I main Sonic, so it hurts to see him placed at the bottom, however I'm pleased at how much thought and effort you put into the list to the point that I won't argue against it too much. It's a very respectable list to say the least. Sonic is low tier at low level play and much of what everyone has said against him is partially true. What people don't seem to get is that you can't play Sonic with the, "Hit to kill" mentality and any real Sonic player knows that, and that sucks. Sonic is a character with a genre all his own. Sonic can match up with the best, but that depends solely on the player's wit. I don't think a character like Sonic even belongs on a tier list, but if I where to place him anywhere it would be top-bottom. Not because he sucks, but because he's a pain to master and use effectively. This is my unbiased opinion.

First off, Thank you. I did put a little bit of effort into this, and I'm still willing to change A LOT of things to make the entire thing plausible. I'm just getting into the phase of ordering characters in the 4 branches. All your opinions count, and I'm still changing this a lot.

Ok, I'll take that into account, and in time if this shows I'll change it. But I just can't cave in just yet and say he's middle tier now.