• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official BBR Tier List v7

Status
Not open for further replies.

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
When you land the first hit of bair/nair while in your float, by releasing the float immediately, the hitboxes for Peach's weak hit activate.

It's 14%+7% and 13%+10% I think. The weak hit for nair won't connect at mid-high percents.

Alternatively, Zelda's lightning kicks can do 21%.
Ugh, did you have to say something? Damm kids. pissing me off....

But yea thats how it works.

And it does not have to be frame perfect. All I have to do is let go of the float once the attack connects, and it will make the second hit box active for a 2 hit combo. This even works at high Percents. This also works on shield.

Go into training mode yourself and try it. look how simple it is to do it.

This is how I mind **** some who actually does their homework. If my opponent knows that Peach Nair is not save on block, what I can do to open him up early is to dair>nair. When the nair connects, I fall and active the second hit box. can counter and punish things such as a grab. Or if I feel I am too close and wanna frame trap my opponent, I can have both hit box of nair hit the shield and push block them alil. Being out of range of a grab and jab them. Same with bair with good spacing. This increases her pressure game a lil. it also eats more of the shield then usual.



All this stuff I been going on about for days till now, Peach a bad character? Heh heh-heh. That mentality gets me wins that I should work harder for when people listen to the media and judge a book by its cover. Maybe now people will take the time to do their research on peach and other characters that so call "suck and don't matter" one can only dream though.
 

Alacion

Sunny skies
Premium
Joined
Oct 6, 2009
Messages
8,061
Location
Vancouver, BC
NNID
Alacion
3DS FC
0216-0918-5299
Sorry :(

I didn't realize it was such a secret. Nearly everybody who has played me knows this x_x I find weak hit nair doesn't really connect at 80%-ish, and weak hit bair doesn't hit at 160%-ish.

Peach is definitely worth playing!
 
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Messages
6,345
Location
New York, NY
3DS FC
5429-7210-5657
Neon ZSS and DK do have very similar bairs though, the only reason ZSS' won't combo into itself easily is because of her weird jump heights.

It CAN combo to itself tho
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
Sorry :(

I didn't realize it was such a secret. Nearly everybody who has played me knows this x_x I find weak hit nair doesn't really connect at 80%-ish, and weak hit bair doesn't hit at 160%-ish.

Peach is definitely worth playing!
I was gonna tell them. But I had it step up perfect to reveal it all. And you just ruined the hype.

And you right. I can do this around 80 on anyone. The second hit box does not connect in time before the enemy is out of my reach. I did not realize there was a limit such as this. I guess I thought so cause I have done this at high % with bair. so I though nair was the same.

Now look at who has not been doing their homework.....

Its still hella good for helping racking up damage One attack that is not that hard to land is a free 21-23%? And makes shield pressure better? Can be mad with that.

Now that this came up, I have to add this into Peach meta game along with EVERYTHING else. Good god I have hella work too do.
 

Neon!

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
1,285
Location
Dallas, Texas
Neon ZSS and DK do have very similar bairs though, the only reason ZSS' won't combo into itself easily is because of her weird jump heights.

It CAN combo to itself tho
It can't combo into itself easily though, at certain percent's DK's bair can combo into itself 3x even against characters like olimar and mk, doing anywhere from 36%-24% in one string. DK's bair hitbox lasts longer than zss's making it easier to connect with or trade in most cases, zss's bair also cant hit characters like Diddy out of a rising short hop. Zss's bair is amazing but it's not quite as good as DK's.
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
Well, now I can't complain about Peach being in BL tier. :p
You know whats funny, peach was made BL tier and half the people or more did not know any of this stuff. What she was really capable of, how she works, her frames. pretty much all the time I have broke her down for these few days. To me it seems it was leading to tourny results and the general image of peach that got her her spot on the tier list alone. Which from how I hear people view here over the years, is the BBR being nice.

Imagine with all this stuff applied is applied. Which I am currently working on. EVERYTHING she can do abused hardcore. I say with all this in MY eyes...............Bottom of B tier. But of course im ready for people to call BS on that and call me bias. So I'm gonna fix this meta game and show people just how easy then been having it compared to the solid Peach i'm gonna create.
 

Neon!

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
1,285
Location
Dallas, Texas
I actually believe peach might be capable of B-tier, the biggest obstacle of course is metaknight. While I'd love to see peach played "perfectly," characters like snake, diddy, and IC's would be much more terrifying. It seems like snake would theoretically have a dthrow infinite on most characters given perfect reaction time and execution of his boost dash grab.

The problem with DK's bair is that it's attached to DK.

:dedede: :troll:
DK loves trading.
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
I would not include meta, for he gives everyone problems in the game. it's universal. Thus him winning almost everything. And Of course the high tiers would be more of a threat. My goal is not to make Peach more of a threat then them. (Though can't lie, if it actually came to that, that be freaking awsome...)

My goal is to create a peach based on all she can do and release it to the community. Wether this Peach is controlled by me or someone else. From here, we can see how far she can go. How she can really handle match ups. me along with the world can actually see just how good she is. Right now, none know that. I can give a prediction based on what I know and seen. But my answer is not set in stone. Cause we have not seen this play. Who knows, she might just turn out to be more of a problem or better then some high tiers. only one way to know for sure.
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
You know whats funny, peach was made BL tier and half the people or more did not know any of this stuff. What she was really capable of, how she works, her frames. pretty much all the time I have broke her down for these few days. To me it seems it was leading to tourny results and the general image of peach that got her her spot on the tier list alone. Which from how I hear people view here over the years, is the BBR being nice.

Imagine with all this stuff applied is applied. Which I am currently working on. EVERYTHING she can do abused hardcore. I say with all this in MY eyes...............Bottom of B tier. But of course im ready for people to call BS on that and call me bias. So I'm gonna fix this meta game and show people just how easy then been having it compared to the solid Peach i'm gonna create.
Unfortunately, I doubt you, or anyone, will have much time to accomplish that before this whole affair simply loses its relevance, what with Smash 4 coming on the scene and all that...

I actually believe peach might be capable of B-tier, the biggest obstacle of course is metaknight. While I'd love to see peach played "perfectly," characters like snake, diddy, and IC's would be much more terrifying. It seems like snake would theoretically have a dthrow infinite on most characters given perfect reaction time and execution of his boost dash grab.
By boost dash grab, do you mean a dash attack cancelled grab (DACG)? Those exist in Brawl? I thought that was solely a Melee thing...
 

Neon!

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
1,285
Location
Dallas, Texas
By boost dash grab, do you mean a dash attack cancelled grab (DACG)? Those exist in Brawl? I thought that was solely a Melee thing...
I've always referred to it as a boost grab but yes it would be a DACG and they exist. With perfect execution apparently snake can DACG grab release mk repeatedly across stages like FD.


I think you missed the joke.
I didnt notice the D3 icon til later so yes, haha.

I would not include meta, for he gives everyone problems in the game. it's universal. Thus him winning almost everything. And Of course the high tiers would be more of a treat. My goal if not to make Peach more of a threat then them. (Though can't lie, if it actually came to that, that be freaking awsome...)

My goal is to create a peach based on all she can do and release it to the community. Wether this Peach is controlled by me or someone else. From here, we can see how far she can go. How she can really handle match ups. me along with the world can actually just how good she is. Right now, none know that. I can give a prediction based on what I know and seen. But my answer is not set in stone. Cause we have not seen this play. Who knows, she might just turn out to be more of a problem or better then some high tiers. only one way to know for sure.
We need to combine all the peaches into one:

Kie's precision and execution
Illmatic and Silly Kyle's speed and pressure game
Yami's free pulling and unusual movement
llod's camping game
Dark Peach's matchup and frame data knowledge

can it be done?!
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
10,388
Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
You know whats funny, peach was made BL tier and half the people or more did not know any of this stuff. What she was really capable of, how she works, her frames. pretty much all the time I have broke her down for these few days. To me it seems it was leading to tourny results and the general image of peach that got her her spot on the tier list alone. Which from how I hear people view here over the years, is the BBR being nice.

Imagine with all this stuff applied is applied. Which I am currently working on. EVERYTHING she can do abused hardcore. I say with all this in MY eyes...............Bottom of B tier. But of course im ready for people to call BS on that and call me bias. So I'm gonna fix this meta game and show people just how easy then been having it compared to the solid Peach i'm gonna create.
:peach: in the same tier as :falco:...? Now that's nuts. If you said C tier then that's at least more plausible.

:018:
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
Unfortunately, I doubt you, or anyone, will have much time to accomplish that before this whole affair simply loses its relevance, what with Smash 4 coming on the scene and all that...
Smash 4 wont hit for like another 2 years. I'm not sure ow something like has to do with anything.

We need to combine all the peaches into one:

Kie's precision and execution
Illmatic and Silly Kyle's speed and pressure game
Yami's free pulling and unusual movement
llod's camping game
Dark Peach's matchup and frame data knowledge

can it be done?!
Everyone here is using a peice of what she can do. But they are not all using all that she can do. I say it is possible, yes. From this list I would have to focus on Yami. I feel movement is important in ways to bait reaction and push them for it.

Peach has a trick called wasping. Though I call it a persudo wave dash. Generally in this game you can not cancel your dash animation at the start unless you jump, dash attack or upsmash. peach has a loop whole to this rule. I can float then quickly cancel it and land. most people usually shield or side step out of a dash to get in on an enemy and bait something. For that they have to wait till the dash animation ends. I dont have to. I cant float and let go at any point. Cancelling my dash sooner and then do W/E I want.

- Dash>dsmash
- Dash> Jab
- Dash> Fsmash
- Dash> reversal toad if I feel one is chasing me or going in with a projectile.

With this it also makes dash dancing more useful then it would be with the rest of the cast. Now if you know the means of using wave dash and dash dance in melee, peach can apply the same rules in this game. Pretty much making her the only character to do so. This can make her approaches less predictable. People may think I will run in ans I do things like this. Forcing shields, jumps, attacks, evasions, etc. make people thing twice about going in on me with hard to read foot work that is a mix of persude wave dashing and dash dancing.

This tech also helps with tech chasing and baiting a wake up option when one misses a tech. Bait a roll position or a get up attack and they are open for a hit.

Movement like this makes it hard to hit, baits moves and can land some damage while being safe and messing with the opponents head.

:peach: in the same tier as :falco:...? Now that's nuts. If you said C tier then that's at least more plausible.

:018:
Of course you would say something like that. You are one of the many people in this community that would mostly likely never let an old image die, and think someone like Peach could never be good. Its understandable. You don't know what I know. And you really did not know half of most of the stuff I talked about with peach for this week. There is also alot more I can bet you don't know. But you will hold this opinion of yours with how Peach is seen in this comminuty. Which is what I want. Cause when it happen with a full meta game of Peach released, Im gonna rub this **** so hard in you and the others faces.
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 30, 2010
Messages
6,895
Location
Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Except when DDD gets a funny grab release on him... :smash:

Kie's precision and execution
Illmatic and Silly Kyle's speed and pressure game
Yami's free pulling and unusual movement
llod's camping game
Dark Peach's matchup and frame data knowledge

can it be done?!
I always thought Silly Kyle was more of a Melee player than a vBrawl player, though... I didn't know he played much Brawl at all, tbh.
 

Iota

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
1,298
Location
Henrico, Virginia
3DS FC
2852-7054-7732
That's a kinda superficial look at the two of them. I think the biggest thing that separates them is that Wario grows more dangerous the longer you drag the match out while Squirtle becomes quite the opposite due to stamina. :happysheep:
 

Iota

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
1,298
Location
Henrico, Virginia
3DS FC
2852-7054-7732
Uuh..Wario can gimp too, and he probably has stronger tools for it. You got me there with the kill throws but Wario has kill moves as effective if not more than squirtles fair and u-smash IMO

No squirtle can only kill with d-throw but his d-throw is VERY strong.

 

Iota

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 8, 2010
Messages
1,298
Location
Henrico, Virginia
3DS FC
2852-7054-7732
I will agree to that. Iirc a good deal of that range is a sour spot though, correct me if I'm wrong though.
 

Grim Tuesday

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 4, 2007
Messages
13,444
Location
Adelaide, South Australia, AUS
You know whats funny, peach was made BL tier and half the people or more did not know any of this stuff. What she was really capable of, how she works, her frames. pretty much all the time I have broke her down for these few days. To me it seems it was leading to tourny results and the general image of peach that got her her spot on the tier list alone. Which from how I hear people view here over the years, is the BBR being nice.

Imagine with all this stuff applied is applied. Which I am currently working on. EVERYTHING she can do abused hardcore. I say with all this in MY eyes...............Bottom of B tier. But of course im ready for people to call BS on that and call me bias. So I'm gonna fix this meta game and show people just how easy then been having it compared to the solid Peach i'm gonna create.
Tier list isn't based on potential, though...

looks like I might have to start releasing some of my private sonic knowledge to the world too..
Likewise for my Puff knowledge.
Except that isn't really stuff that can be explained, just shown.
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
I can when people decided to say things about a character and they don't look things up fully on them. I would agree with you if all that i have said was taken into account. reguardless if I have done it or not. I explained this type of thing before.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
The tier list, over time, has gradually shifted over from "ideal play" to "a prediction of a character's potential". It's a mixed approach that makes the Smash community one of the best at making a tier list, imo. We create a "hypothesis" using our perceptions/knowledge of characters thus far and look at the data (tournament results). If it matches up with our hypothesis, then we set it aside (e.g metaknight, ICs). If it doesn't match up with our hypothesis, either because the hypothesis seems to overestimate or underestimate the success of the character, then we look at the reasons that there could be a disparity between the hypothesis and the data. I honestly think that this interpretation of the tier list should be the predominant one because then it gives room for discussion while preserving the integrity of the BBR if it makes a wildly unpopular tier list (i.e. there's no guessing why the list is bad, either the initial hypothesis was no good or the data was believed to be insufficient).

Let's apply this interpretation to a specific character: Marth. My hypothesis for Marth is that he is among the top 8 of the game. The other seven characters would be MK, Diddy, Snake, Olimar, Ice Climbers, Falco, and Pikachu. Thinking about his tools, this isn't too unreasonable. So what does the data say? The data shows that several Marth players have had success across the span of the metagame (time and location wise). Additionally, there have been enough results (bar Pikachu) to substantiate the other characters being in the top 8 also, and Marth's results are good enough relative to theirs to have him be up there. So having Marth in top 8 isn't really a problem, and further hypotheses made about Marth should work further proceeding from this conclusion.

Let's make another hypothesis now , then, to answer this question: where does Marth fit in the top 8?). I would say Marth belongs at the bottom of these 8 characters because while he has all of the tools to win, the fact that he requires such technical play and that his risk-reward is completely skewed for deviation from practical technical perfection makes him prone to inconsistency. Meanwhile the other seven characters do not face similar difficulties and have abusable characteristics. Watching players' matches, this seems like an adequate explanation for his lower placement on the tier list despite the variety of his tools, and we move on.

So why mention all this? Well look, Dark.Pch here has a very strong hypothesis for Peach and has the frame data to show the potential. But the results data does not match up. So then we ask a few questions. Are players playing in the way the hypothesis describes? Dark.Pch doesn't think so. Evaluating the play of higher level Peach players, it appears they selectively abide by parts of the hypothesis. OK, so why have we not seen something like "the complete Peach" as Dark.Pch describes?

One possible reason is, as Dark.Pch said, a lack of motivated players for Peach period/a lack of players with the correct mindset. Even if they are motivated and have a healthy competitive mindset, Peach players do not possess sufficient knowledge of the character (i.e. the "model" created by Dark.Pch). Dark.Pch weights this strongly in his evaluation, so the hypothesis should hold despite discrepancies in the data, and soon enough there will be results to substantiate the hypothesis. He might even advocate that Peach should therefore be ranked higher on good faith.

Thinking more with respect to the character, let's ignore the fact that Peach's counterpicking game is decently limited and instead focus on technicality. If we agree that technical precision is a part of the character's potential success, then just as we did with Marth, we have to evaluate just how much technical precision affects Peach. Our answers to the different questions posed in this part of the evaluation could help support or detract from Dark.Pch's hypothesis (and subsequent counterargument against the data discrepancy).
1. Given that she has to be technically consistent, to what extent does she have to be consistent? I.e. how often? Based on the model described, the answer seems to be "most of the match".
2. What happens when Peach is technically insufficient? Most of the time, she seems to be fairly easy to punish based on the model described. These punishments result in disadvantageous positions for a variety of matchups (as opposed to a reset to neutral).
2a. When she is put in bad positions, does she have the tools to return herself to neutral? I would say that she has a hard time doing so. Trapping Peach seems decently easy to do and to continue in ledge, juggle + oki scenarios. Edgeguarding not so much due to float.
3. If Peach is sufficiently technical, just how "hard" does she hit? Based on the model described, she seems to get strong mixup. That's pretty good, but there's quite a few characters that have guaranteed damage in a lot of scenarios if they don't mess up.

In other words, Peach not only needs to be precise but also gets ****ed up for a long time when she messes up, and doesn't hit hard enough when she is set up. I think that using this as a reason to explain her lack of success allows us to successfully justify her lower tier position despite the potential truth of Dark.Pch's model. That is, just as how Marth has all the tools but is placed lower than characters with similar amounts of tools (Diddy, MK) due to poor risk/reward, so follows Peach (in addition to other characteristics I ignored for the simplicity of argument). Peach might not have the qualified players, but even the most qualified players will mess up enough to show Peach's clear flaw(s) that occur as a result of messing up.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
I'd count less on him and more on players that do not have awful nerves. He probably needs a student to train for a minimum of like...4 o 5 months, AKA the "ideal" Peach will show up around March. But that's if he finds someone now :reverse:
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
I must say, that way hella impressive. Not bad dude.

I am not sure if people remember me saying this a while back. But based on the results and how people been using her, I stated that Peach belong where she is for that fact. Cause wehter I like it or not, everything in this community is seen on results, for the most part. But then again.......

There was a time where pit was over DK and Peach. At that current time Peach/DK have done more in tournament then Pit. Yet Pit got that crazy boost on the tier list. reasons like this I just can't agree with some of the tings the BBR say. Even if it is just only me alone that feels that way. it just makes me think people just look and pay more attention to the characters that matter to them. And I don't feel thats a legit way to make a tier list or state how a match up goes. You just don't do that, it's not legit.

There are many other things that have lead to how I feel. Ether way I will stick by what I say, even if it is just me and no one agrees/supports what I say. But I honestly can't agree with what I hear. many things can be done with this character and people don't do it. What makes me so sure cause I experience it many times. I could be racking up damage, and I decided to go rambo cause I am tired of waiting, exposing myself for hits and not getting anywhere in a match. Things like this for example Is not a character flaw. There are alot of good things in life that you have to bust your *** for. And if you are not willing to do it, you will not get that reward you seek. Being lazy does not get you on the same level of a person that has worked his *** off all his life.

Until I see a peach, wether me or someone else seriously busting their *** with this character and abusing ALL that she can do from start to finish all the time. I'm not gonan change my mind and will hold what I see true. The only way I will agree with the community is if one actually plays like this and the results don't change. No one in this community has to believe/agree with what I say. No Peach players, BBR, Top players,general members of the community, No one. You can all call me bias. thats fine. I am more then confident with my years of using this character and what I found out, that she is better then her current position on this list. people are playing her half fixed and I have proved this already. You can actually go and watch vids of top Peach players, think about all that I have said, and you can actually see what I mean. I just did this a few hours ago just watching Yami's Peach trying to see how I can imply movement with the freepull tech with wasping and dash dancing. he many uses of the combinations and how to make things better.

That's my take and how I feel. If none agree or think I am crazy, bias, etc, thats fine. being a one man army is quite fun and one hell of a challenge to test me.

Also he is right. My terrible tournament nerves and anxiety will hold me back like they have been for years. Most of what I explain this with with Peach I have known for a long time. Just never done it much or at all cause of my mental problem. Though what I may not be mentally capable of (that is if I ever get rid of this problem) Does not mean I can't teach it to someone else and have them do what I am sadly not able too.
 

clowsui

Smash Legend
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Messages
10,184
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
In the case of Pit I can't speak for the earlier BBR but I think that was a mistake that we won't repeat again.

Looking forward to seeing the "complete" Peach.
 

Dark.Pch

Smash Legend
Joined
May 13, 2006
Messages
16,918
Location
Manhattan, New York
NNID
Dark.Pch
3DS FC
5413-0118-3799
I think if I taught all this stuff to SlayerZ He be able to do it if I can not. he is one of the Peach players I see that could do this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom