Official BBR Tier List v6

[~ Gheb ~]

Maybe she's on Fox / Wario level? That could also be the case. I do think her match-ups with MK and Snake are a bit overrated ... maybe I tend to underrate her to "compensate" based on that too much.

 

[Conviction]

After all that Zero Suit Samus hype, NR got outplaced by Salem and DRN

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

I mean, I never said I think she's "solid high tier," I even said that most other high tiers are safer choices than she is.

I just don't think she requires a secondary or even needs one.

 

[Cassio]

I agree with Ghebs list. Snake is definitely the second best character in the game imo. If hes below anyone besides MK its ICs and maybe olimar.

ESAM will strongly disagree but I think ICs is pikas real worst MU. However the commentators were right, going to lylat really didnt do him any favors; CPing such odd stages were only useful back when ICs would drop grabs on them, and instead just sort of makes it easier for them to grab pika. Its only worthwhile if it forces them to drop the grab like on a transformation or can mess up their recovery (frigate). Pika still has tools vs ICs, it can just go bad really quick. A solidly small disadvantage is accurate imo.

I know I dont have a lot tangible information to argue against it, but Im not a big fan of using ESAM to guage all of pikas MUs since hes legitimately bad at some (olimar, peach) and does better than he probably should against others (Snake). Pikas still pretty underdeveloped in comparison with most the cast. I also think he could potentially have one of the better MUs in the game against olimar if it were developed more (not better than even though).

 

[Fuujin]

Okay so now that two Lucas mains got 1st in their seed going only Lucas and Lucas being the only "low tier" to make it out of 1st round pools does everyone else beleive me about Lucas not being low tier anymore???

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Okay so now that two Lucas mains got 1st in their seed going only Lucas and Lucas being the only "low tier" to make it out of 1st round pools does everyone else beleive me about Lucas not being low tier anymore???

Nope.

10Nopes.

 

[AlanHaTe]

I'm not beleiving this Tier lists anymore Japan FTW

 

[Tomato]

Anyone have a figure as far as what percentage of players in the tournament entered as certain characters? I think that would give a more accurate representation of how successful a character is. Although the results may be skewed since there are probably a bunch of rook MKs getting trounced in the first round of pools.

I mean, if there were only 3 Wario mains in the tournament and they all got to bracket round then I don't think it's fair to say he deserves to drop. The Tier List represents the potential to do well, I think real, large drop is fair if a bunch of people tried using him and blew. Look at Pit, he's pretty much only on a slow descent because nobody ever plays as him.

Tier List will definitely have an interesting shake-up when MK is no longer in question, I'd say.

 

[Steam]

I just don't think she requires a secondary or even needs one.

Same thing with lucario... he loses to a lot of characters but never very badly. though I think he's worse than most other lucarios do >_>

 

[Ralph Cecil]

Okay so now that two Lucas mains got 1st in their seed going only Lucas and Lucas being the only "low tier" to make it out of 1st round pools does everyone else beleive me about Lucas not being low tier anymore???

I've thought this for a while myself. o-o

 

[Doc King]

D3 has ALRIGHT moves. His jab is garbage, his aerials and grab is good, 3 of his throws are good, his tilts are good, his smashes are horrid, his B moves are mediocre at best.

His edge guard game is pretty good. His ground game is decent. His throw game is top notch (its like half his metagame), his air game actually isn't that good his weird weight and jump heights and long lasting hitboxes don't allow for safe aerial pokes. His spotdodge is ARGUABLY the best (have you seen Falcos?). His recovery is ok, his survivability is insane, but most importantly his body frame is freaking terrible which matters alot. That's a fair assessment of D3.

This is a pretty good assessment of D3. Th only thing I have to say is that I think that his smashes are alright because of stuff like d throw to up smash, can be used to punish rco lag with his d throw, and the buuman trap.

People are going to underrate Marth now. Honestly I think olimars the only one that needs to rise and wario fall, I just see everyone in top tier as being almost indistinguishably close. The order almost doesnt matter.

lmao you mean on stream? I saw that too was kinda sad...I think were just destined to suck at this point though. Except ESAM, and maybe nairo if he doesnt quit.

BTW Rich did work on metaknight. He eliminated Holy, Tyrant, Zero, and M2K. Z also did some good work against Pwii and Zex.

Also Apex results by character from bracket:

1, 3, 5, 5, 13, 13, 17, 17, 17, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 33, 33, 33, 49, 49, 49, 49, 49
7, 9, 49
5, 7, 17, 17, 33, 49
9, 17, 33
17, 17, 33
25, 49, 49
4, 5, 33, 49
2, 9, 13, 13, 33, 33, 49
4, 17
33
25, 49
33, 33, 49
49

33, 33
49
33, 49
25

9

49
49



33
33
25

Man way to go Coney! BTW, the other D3 (Which is 4God) had his first bracket match against Coney.

Whoa, a rob made it to 9th, who was that?

 

[BMC]

100% viable without second characrer:

MK
[Snake / ICs / Olimar]
[Diddy / Pikachu]

Viable but need second character:

[Falco / Marth]
Fox / Wario
Toon Link / Pit / DDD / Wolf / ZSS

The rest is not viable or not good enough even with a second character imo.

I don't know. Looking at your posts I know you think Peach is a terrible character. But, seeing as how two Peach players made it into bracket, one placing 33rd and another placing 49th at such a stacked tournament, it's pretty safe to say Peach is viable with a second character. Fox and Peach were the only two midtiers who had more than one player make it into bracket too.

 

[DiskaSM]

I agree with Ghebs list. Snake is definitely the second best character in the game imo. If hes below anyone besides MK its ICs and maybe olimar.

You're sounding a bit ignorant, saying that Snake is the second best, or that Olimar could be.
You need to take into account all the other results from other tournaments beside Apex. While Apex was a huge deal, it was just one tournament. The metagame has developed to the point that Snake's huge weaknesses are now known and abused a lot vs him. The only Snake mains that place really high consistently in the US anymore are Razer, Fatal, Bizkit and I can't think of any others. Razer is undoubtedly the best of these, and he's a phenomenal player. But even he can't always get around dumb stuff like Pika's chaingrabs.

Tbh Diddy is a much more solid character than Snake overall due to the fact that Diddy has fewer exploitable weaknesses, and is more balanced overall, and is packaged with the most game-changing item (which also is a bit broken). Though I won't argue against people placing Snake third, I do think Snake is still a bit over-rated.

Olimar as well is not by a long shot second best character in the game. Though Nietono pulled out second place at Apex, this isn't cause of his character. This is because Nietono, as a player, takes Olimar to a level that no other Olimar has gotten to. Dabuz himself admitted this. No other Olimar has such perfect use of pikmin, spacing, fast reflexes, adapting and more. The fact that Nietono got second place shows how amazing a player he is, not that his character is broken. If Olimar was so broken, then his results would consistently prove it. I do think Olimar needs a bump in the tier list, but not top 4 yet (unless it's a MK banned tier list). At the end of the day, Olimar's recovery is still bottom 2 in the game, and his landings are still sub-par, though not as abysmal as Snake's.

 

[Orion*]

Current top 10 imo

MK
Diddy
ICs
Olimar
Snake
Falco/Marth
Wario/Pika

...
that's 9
i guess ill put fox at 10 atm

 

[phi1ny3]

This is a pretty good assessment of D3. Th only thing I have to say is that I think that his smashes are alright because of stuff like d throw to up smash, can be used to punish rco lag with his d throw, and the buuman trap.


Man way to go Coney! BTW, the other D3 (Which is 4God) had his first bracket match against Coney.

Whoa, a rob made it to 9th, who was that?

OCEAN was the ROB, he beat M2K as well

 

[Doc King]

Current top 10 imo

MK
Diddy
ICs
Olimar
Snake
Falco/Marth
Wario/Pika

...
that's 9
i guess ill put fox at 10 atm

Fox definitely wouldn't be top ten unless if ur talking about something other than tier placements.

OCEAN was the ROB, he beat M2K as well

Wow. Japan is so good. It's amazing how a hard counter matchup has won by someone who is considered the best player in the USA and as playing the best character in the game while OCEAN played a mid tier character.

Did Mew2King rage quit?

 

[Mr. Johan]

They played the full set, and OCEAN pulled it off. Apparently M2K just gave up in Losers.

But still, ROB. damn. Put him back up to Top 5 like he was in Tier List V1.

 

[Sunnysunny]

Can't stop the motion of the OCEAN from causing a commotion.

 

[M@v]

Current top 10 imo

MK
Diddy
ICs
Olimar
Snake
Falco/Marth
Wario/Pika

...
that's 9
i guess ill put fox at 10 atm

People just don't know how to fight fox here in America. Trust me on that one.

The difference in fighting someone who knows the fox mu and someone who doesn't is like night and day, even if they are similar skill otherwise. Dont get me wrong I don't think fox is bad: I think hes right around the bottom of C tier(high tier) with GW and toon. But he's not 10th

 

[~ Gheb ~]

GW is ****ing TERRIBLE lmao

 

[M@v]

I was referring to where fox's position should be relative to the current tier list. Not how good or bad gw/toon are.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But Fox is arguably top 10 in this game.
GW is barely top 20.

 

[infiniteV115]

I could realistically see Lucario, ZSS and Fox taking up the 10th-12th space (not necessarily in that order), assuming the current 1st-9th.

 

[Cassio]

What do people think of TL not even making bracket in spite of virtually every successful TL main being there? One time occurrence? GW was also sort of dead, his only appearance was by Vinnie who maybe didnt even use him.

 

[Seagull Joe]

But Fox is arguably top 10 in this game.
GW is barely top 20.

I disagree. is definitely a high tier character. He isn't mid.

What do people think of TL not even making bracket in spite of virtually every successful TL main being there? One time occurrence? GW was also sort of dead, his only appearance was by Vinnie who maybe didnt even use him.

Depends how stacked their round 2 pool was.

Have people finally realized what I realized over a year ago? That is stupid and should've moved up last tier list a few spots.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

GW is 100% unviable. His match-ups are like between -1 and -2 vs MK, -2 vs Snake, -3 vs ICs, between -2 and -3 vs Diddy, -2 vs Olimar and at least -1 vs Falco. That's one of the worst match-up spreads vs high tier character there is - only Pikachu doesn't beat him.

 

[Orion*]

People just don't know how to fight fox here in America. Trust me on that one.

The difference in fighting someone who knows the fox mu and someone who doesn't is like night and day, even if they are similar skill otherwise. Dont get me wrong I don't think fox is bad: I think hes right around the bottom of C tier(high tier) with GW and toon. But he's not 10th

I know the fox mu relatively well and i understand that the character is extremely one dimensional and has many large gaping holes in his game. That doesn't remove the fact that his strengths are well... extremely good. He's pretty much the glass cannon of the game

 

[Doc King]

I could realistically see Lucario, ZSS and Fox taking up the 10th-12th space (not necessarily in that order), assuming the current 1st-9th.

What about ?

He did pretty well and a little bit better than the high tiers at Apex. I think he deserves to be there.

 

[Browny]

I disagree. is definitely a high tier character. He isn't mid.


Depends how stacked their round 2 pool was.

Have people finally realized what I realized over a year ago? That is stupid and should've moved up last tier list a few spots.

Been calling oli a top 4 char since mid 2009

He was then, is now, and still will be.

 

[UltimateRazer]

I dunno, Pikachu against ICs seemed pretty bad

Snake will probably want something to cover that Pikachu Dthrow MU, but then again maybe it can be avoided easier dunno. Razer has lots of Pika experience.

False. I rarely have pika practice and don't have that much experience at all. Kprime and I barely play.

 

[Orion*]

What about ?

He did pretty well and a little bit better than the high tiers at Apex. I think he deserves to be there.

I think from a top level pov fox is a better character overall against the other high tiers in comparison to DDD. across the cast DDD has overall good MUs however in high tier he's lacking. Fox however i feel does better vs MK/Diddy/Falco and does relatively the same vs olimar/ics/snake (snake vs ddd/fox can pretty much be argued +1 either way MU wise but in the end generally the better player should win).

DDD has a better MU vs wario, which is generally even vs Fox, however wario isn't as likely to be a threat in tournament as the rest of the other characters.

I also think that fox is better because he's much better at punishing small mistakes for large damage or kills if your execution is on point. DDDs punishes while extremely consistent for the most part, are also extremely limited many times also and vs other good characters watching him try to land a kill is pretty devastating ..

 

[Doc King]

I could realistically see Lucario, ZSS and Fox taking up the 10th-12th space (not necessarily in that order), assuming the current 1st-9th.

I think from a top level pov fox is a better character overall against the other high tiers in comparison to DDD. across the cast DDD has overall good MUs however in high tier he's lacking. Fox however i feel does better vs MK/Diddy/Falco and does relatively the same vs olimar/ics/snake (snake vs ddd/fox can pretty much be argued +1 either way MU wise but in the end generally the better player should win).

DDD has a better MU vs wario, which is generally even vs Fox, however wario isn't as likely to be a threat in tournament as the rest of the other characters.

I also think that fox is better because he's much better at punishing small mistakes for large damage or kills if your execution is on point. DDDs punishes while extremely consistent for the most part, are also extremely limited many times also and vs other good characters watching him try to land a kill is pretty devastating ..

The only problem is that Climbers and Pika hard counter him so much.

Well, I can see Fox making a rise in the tier list to high tier. and looks debatable. I mean Fox too has very hard matchups, so it's kind of even.

I can probably see Fox going above someone like game and watch.

 

[Conviction]

Fox is viable with a secondary most definitely. Just whip out a sword character against Pika/ICs. Or pull a Zeton.

 

[M@v]

Doc king, Ice climbers and pika both hard counter falco almost as hard as they do fox, and look where falco is.

I want to bring up orion pointed out one of fox's strengths: punishing. He is so damn good at it its frightening. He can pull off a lot of punishes falco cant, and the ones they both can do fox can do them for more damage. In fact, fox can punish better than most of the cast.

One of fox's big weaknesses though is he has mediocre approaches at best. Also, a lot of times if the fox wants to get in on his opponent to rack up damage, he needs a hard read or a mistake by the opponent. He has an extremely difficult time making the openings appear himself.

Fox however , in my opinion, is the best "anti-camper" in the game. What I mean by that is any character that loves to camp with projectiles fox can outcamp easily. I'll use fox vs falco as an example. Fox can reflect falco's lasers easily and they flinch so it slows falco down. Fox's lasers on the other hand, do a few things:

1.Dont flinch fox if they get reflected
2. high rate of fire usually results in falco not being able to keep up with his reflector
3. If your the right distance, fox can't get hit by his own lasers while falco still can be.

Fox has different ways to go about it in different mus, but TL:DR its almost impossible for a character who is good at camping to out camp fox if the fox knows what to do.

 

[Conviction]

Ironically enough considering Nietono's (and other Olimars of course) preformance at Apex...the only character I have problems outcamping is Olimar. Pikmin are so dumb

 

[M@v]

Shine/uptilt are really good for getting pikman off fast.

 

[Conviction]

Yeah I see, but I think it's Olimar's Pikmin have a disjoint or Fox has a wierd hurtbox but sometimes Pikmin latch onto me but they aren't exactly touching me, right above Fox. Uair, Utilt, and Usmash won't hit them either, nor shine sometimes I have to time it. It's mad annoying, has it happened to you?

 

[KuroganeHammer]

GW is 100% unviable. His match-ups are like between -1 and -2 vs MK, -2 vs Snake, -3 vs ICs, between -2 and -3 vs Diddy, -2 vs Olimar and at least -1 vs Falco. That's one of the worst match-up spreads vs high tier character there is - only Pikachu doesn't beat him.

I've been saying this for a long time.

 

[Orion*]

The only problem is that Climbers and Pika hard counter him so much..

Mind you not as hard, but both of those characters also can arguably hard counter DDD....
The matchup is rarely played at high level, but it's unlikely that it's better than a soft counter and with such a polarizing character like DDD when a read can = a stock it's not so easy for him to win either.

DDD also get's bodied by MK and Falco.

4 hard counters < 2 LMAO

Yeah I see, but I think it's Olimar's Pikmin have a disjoint or Fox has a wierd hurtbox but sometimes Pikmin latch onto me but they aren't exactly touching me, right above Fox. Uair, Utilt, and Usmash won't hit them either, nor shine sometimes I have to time it. It's mad annoying, has it happened to you?

nope... but sounds ********.

Ironically enough considering Nietono's (and other Olimars of course) preformance at Apex...the only character I have problems outcamping is Olimar. Pikmin are so dumb

yeah... that mu is gay/annoying

I've been saying this for a long time.

ive been calling this ***** like top of mid tier forever also you dont see me fishing for herp derps

 

[Hylian]

Orion, who did vinnie use against you?