Official BBR Tier List v6

[Kuro~]

Hanging out with Peach Main 101:

1. Ask if they are gay

2. If they say no, they are Black

3. Praxis is Black

4. 90% of them love the character and think she is the female god of the game deserving of praise. The rest think she sucks **** like the skank ***** she is

5. They always win MM's for some damn reason

6. Tend to think she is ok on some stage like Brinstar, until someone goes MK

7. Spelt likes the peepee

But Kyon is black and gay D: you all assuming *****

 

[DMG]

DMG, your story has a loop hole. Me and excel are latinos.

You look closer to Black than Latino

Excel on the other hand... Boy be working hard for them siestas!

 

[Conviction]

Well damn.

 

[Spelt]

Doesn't siesta mean sleep?

 

[Kuro~]

Doesn't siesta mean sleep?

Rest, break, reprieve, etc. etc.

 

[Judo777]

Dude I don't see how anyone can think Falco is overrated. Falco is insane. Do you understand how big of a deal it is to have a repeative strategy that is viable in top levels of play. Falco's laser and phantasm spam is like legit as opposed to alot of other repeatative strategies like marths fair walling which is MUCH easier to stop.

He has like everything you could want in a character. His close game is quite phenominal thanks to probably the second best jab in the game. His ranged game is also about unmatched and his biggest flaws like recovery and weight aren't that bad considering his options of avoiding them. Btw his recovery isn't that bad. His phatasm is almost unreactable, cancels and is invincible the first third of his distance.

Most importantly he has a good MK MU which is about 70% of all that matters at top levels of play. The entire tier list is shaped by how good you match up against him as many otherwise great characters are supressed horribly because you can;t beat him. So that is one of the most important things.

 

[Ishiey]

+1 Ripple vs Peach MM hype.

Asian girls.

Oh, right, Wolf. I'm not going to go into too much detail because a brief summary should be posted soon (probably briefer than what I type here lol), but it basically comes down to three things:

1) probably has the best MK MU in high tier and below after Fox, maybe tied with ZSS/G&W depending on who you ask, idk much about those MUs.
2) counters are uncommon. Warios don't do the CG right, Pikas don't do the CG right, and neither really show up in tournament much. D3 gets pooped on by MK who's kinda taking up most of the metagame, so his presence has gone down too. Either way, Fox has three equally-bad (and I guess equally uncommon) MUs and still got a boost last tier list, so using this argument to keep Wolf down wouldn't really be that justified. It's still a significant issue though, which is why I don't think Wolf should move out of mid anytime soon.
3) he was below characters that he shouldn't have been below. Like, I really don't understand the reasoning behind not putting him in C tier during v5 because his overall ability is similar to everyone else in that tier, I don't see how everyone missed it. Character tools, tournament results, AND matchups all supported this, and still support it now.


Also, too lazy to find my votes and post them here, but my top 4 for mid were TL/Fox/Wolf/Peach, and I personally wanted TL/Fox in what's now "high tier" but wanted that tier allowed for mid-tier tournaments (aside from D3 because that'd probably kill diversity), and Wolf/Peach mixed with the tier below. Wolf going up +6 is a lot, yes, but it makes sense. I don't feel like there's too much of a difference between him and all the people he overtook (besides Luigi) though, the main thing pushing him so high is his MK MU probably.

Agreed with Judo btw. Falco is stupid, such simple tactics should not be so effective >_>

 

[The_SuperiorTaste]

I knew Diddy would be second sometime soon. Even though I secondary Snake and I dislike that monkey (alot) I knew Snake was going to drop.

Also this tier list made me go WTF on so many levels.

Wolf +6, Kirby -4, ROB -3!?!?!? WTF

 

[Praxis]

Hanging out with Peach Main 101:

1. Ask if they are gay

2. If they say no, they are Black

3. Praxis is Black

4. 90% of them love the character and think she is the female god of the game deserving of praise. The rest think she sucks **** like the skank ***** she is

5. They always win MM's for some damn reason

6. Tend to think she is ok on some stage like Brinstar, until someone goes MK

7. Spelt likes the peepee

Are you sure you don't main Peach?

 

[Ussi]

Falco's side B is fast, invincible, and cancelable because it only goes in one direction.. You only have 2 choices with it.. Land on stage.. Or to the ledge.

The problem? Its so fast that ledge hogging is easy as the hitbox isn't out long.. And going onto the stage is also punishable. The last problem is how it is clankable, so falco's options are now covered it you have move that can clank his side B. Of course you can't clank when its invincible.. And platforms gives falco another option.. So its not bad, but still exploitable

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Ussi that's all well and good except any time phantasm is punished it's because Falco was read. Phantasm is bad on paper when you describe it that way but in real life gets punished very rarely.

Also @Isiheymoro:

ZSS doesn't have a MK match-up in the same league as any of the space animals, who are fundimentally good against the bat because of how their movesets and mechanics are built. It's good to be able to force MK to approach and it's good that tornado isn't very good against them.

ZSS can't reliably force MK to approach, in the MK match-up she's more like a bad marth that can recover a bit better (she'll usually take some damage) and gets way more damage on a read.

 

[vVv Rapture]

I still wonder what the game would be like if the character in S Tier (whom I will not name) was banned.

The possibilities...

Also, I still think ICs should be below Oli and Pika. I wouldn't be surprised if those two passed the ICs by the next list.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The only immediate result would be that characters whose worst match-up are MK or have bad MK match-ups would suddenly be a lot better. I think the most potent example is Toon Link, who is pretty good but absolutely boned by any MK who knows the match-up, followed by like, King Dedede, then Wario and Peach. Donkey Kong counts a bit too.

Beyond that, I just think we'd see a pretty even spread of about 7-8 characters placing well with a statistically significant but not disastrous nod to Snake, Diddy Kong, and Falco. You would probably see characters that counter or do well against these characters picked up as secondaries. Overall I think more people would play more characters, which would probably be the most profound difference.

 

[Tesh]

Reported for speaking of the forbidden topic.

 

[vVv Rapture]

The only immediate result would be that characters whose worst match-up are MK or have bad MK match-ups would suddenly be a lot better. I think the most potent example is Toon Link, who is pretty good but absolutely boned by any MK who knows the match-up, followed by like, King Dedede, then Wario and Peach. Donkey Kong counts a bit too.

Beyond that, I just think we'd see a pretty even spread of about 7-8 characters placing well with a statistically significant but not disastrous nod to Snake, Diddy Kong, and Falco. You would probably see characters that counter or do well against these characters picked up as secondaries. Overall I think more people would play more characters, which would probably be the most profound difference.

It's interesting because I'd personally like to see things that arise in other MUs with that character out of the picture, like how the significance of one character rising due to banning that character would affect other characters. Maybe other metagames would significantly develop or not at all for individual characters.

Also, you bring up a good point, with MK we may even seen more pocket characters rather than just people picking up a main they couldn't really use alone with MK around. It's funny because a lot of people don't think that way.

@Tesh: Didn't say MK's name, **** outta here.

 

[Conviction]

^ Co-signed.

 

[Doc King]

Is there gonna be another legit mk ban thread or no?

 

[Deleted member]

It's certainly not in this thread. Take the discussion to the MK Ban group.

You can find it in my profile.

 

[Exceladon City]

You look closer to Black than Latino

Excel on the other hand... Boy be working hard for them siestas!

I didn't even namesearch and came across this. I seriously need to get a new tag or something...

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It's certainly not in this thread. Take the discussion to the MK Ban group.

You can find it in my profile.

Viva la revolución!

 

[Orion*]

Like, actually black

Like jail black...
Or crispy black?

EDIT: @above pic: That would have been so much funnier if you gave it a better delivery.

this

DP all mad serious yo

/ashamed I read this differently

Spelt, that post was ****ing gold.

This

any time phantasm is punished it's because Falco was read.

Maybe for you?
I don't read ****, but you can still punish it in a lot of situations from proper baiting and good reflexes.

The only falco that I've played where this legitimately wasn't possible unless I wanted to get ***** was Larry in friendlies. In that case I was just severely outskilled.

Also from seconding falco I don't really believe that. Most top players can auto pilot and still manage to punish that move if it's just thrown out without a read.

I really think the only way you could apply what your situation is talking about is like if both people are at some god tier levels (aka, m2k/larry playing at their best). In which case, the move still isn't spammed, because the risk reward for falco getting hit is pretty bad sadly, and at top level play like this almost everything is safe from being punished without a read.

 

[Conviction]

LOL@Crispy

Forreal though, if they are spamming laser side b, you should be able to bait the side b punish them.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Maybe for you?
I don't read ****, but you can still punish it in a lot of situations from proper baiting and good reflexes.

The only falco that I've played where this legitimately wasn't possible unless I wanted to get ***** was Larry in friendlies. In that case I was just severely outskilled.

Also from seconding falco I don't really believe that. Most top players can auto pilot and still manage to punish that move if it's just thrown out without a read.

I really think the only way you could apply what your situation is talking about is like if both people are at some god tier levels (aka, m2k/larry playing at their best). In which case, the move still isn't spammed, because the risk reward for falco getting hit is pretty bad sadly, and at top level play like this almost everything is safe from being punished without a read.

This is fair. I'll rephrase.

In general, Falco tends to get away with Phantasm much, much more often than not. That's because it's hard (I mean, not impossible maybe I generalized too heavily) to react to. It is however, really easy to punish on a read and Falco loves to phanasm.

 

[MechaWave]

What "cold hard facts" about peach is mechawave talking about?

... o_o
Not even posting in this thread anymore. It was simpler in the previous tier list but, no.

 

[Orion*]

LOL@Crispy

Forreal though, if they are spamming laser side b, you should be able to bait the side b punish them.

This is fair. I'll rephrase.

In general, Falco tends to get away with Phantasm much, much more often than not. That's because it's hard (I mean, not impossible maybe I generalized too heavily) to react to. It is however, really easy to punish on a read and Falco loves to phanasm.

kk

 

[Ripple]

I didn't even namesearch and came across this. I seriously need to get a new tag or something...

I agree. I can pay for the premium when you know what you want to change it to

 

[Conviction]

Didn't DEHF rage at Hylian for doing side b a lot? because it was a bad thing to do?

 

[vVv Rapture]

Is there gonna be another legit mk ban thread or no?

Let's do it! BBR should do another one.

On the thread's current topic, the reason Phantasm works so well is because no one punishes it correctly as often as they should, if at all. It's not like it sets you on fire if you go near Falco when he's doing it or during that little time we call ending lag.

I can understand not approaching it off-stage for fear of being spiked, but how hard is it to just read the move considering it has a set distance and trajectory all the time except when cancelled?

 

[Sinister Slush]

Now we just need a version with Yoshi/Sonic and the token being on Lucario.

You forgot rule 5a:

"Except against Nike"

I laughed... Nike The Fruit Slayer.

 

[Thebest1pj]

BAN METAKNIGHT!

and free my people

texas

 

[Dr. R.O.Botnik]

bbr

y u no tell us why wolf was moved 6 places?

And they said whining would get me nowhere.

 

[WindMajor]

The OP says that write-ups for character movement will be coming soon.

Oh wait. x2 v__v

 

[Judo777]

Falco's side B is fast, invincible, and cancelable because it only goes in one direction.. You only have 2 choices with it.. Land on stage.. Or to the ledge.

The problem? Its so fast that ledge hogging is easy as the hitbox isn't out long.. And going onto the stage is also punishable. The last problem is how it is clankable, so falco's options are now covered it you have move that can clank his side B. Of course you can't clank when its invincible.. And platforms gives falco another option.. So its not bad, but still exploitable

This sounds very simple until you take into account geometry. Firstly Falco can Side B very high above the stage and land on platforms. Or just cancel it and you might get a DA punish but that's about it since he drifts so far.

Lastly here is the actual geometry problem. Falco who doesn't have to recover from really far gets a nice stupid mixup that is pretty much safe. He drops at the height where his phantasm is just above the stage. From here he has 2 options as you said, go to the stage or go to the ledge. Now he watches you. If you are back away from the ledge he can go for the ledge since you can't hog it in time. If you are close enough to the stage to hog him if he goes for the ledge he can phatasm to the stage. Since you are close enough to run and hog him you are close enough to not be able to hit him because he is invincible. Your only option is to clank they phatasm with a move (which wont hit him but you won't get hit) or shield and then not punish cause your in shield stun and drop lag.

tl:dr if you are close enough to hog him you are too close to hit him if he phantasms due to invincibility.

 

[Conviction]

What I'm suggesting is though when you know they are going Side B, zone into close range so about close-mid range and then return back to mid range so you can punish. This all due how your character works. Well that's how I do it anyways.

Well damn.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

just shoot him. works for me.

oh wait,

 

[B.A.M.]

@ Judo thats only if hes on the ledge. if he got hit far offstage than you can either attack or edgehog just fine. And why wouldnt you hit Falco when recovering near the stage? Falco is one of the few characters that cant really even attempt anything while reaching stage height; aerial or AD = death. The fact that you allow a falco to recover so close to the ledge without running out to hit him first before he hits that range is dumb. Especially if you have a projectile

People are really over exaggerating. phantasm isnt that crazy. if you are at mid range and falco lands on the ground unless hes gonna ground laser for some unknown reason you could just throw out a quick attack. I mean if you really think about theres not a ton of times where falco can effectively side b and get away with it especially at mid range when its the only thing that could hit you besides lasers which you should be attempting to PS anyways. It does get harder when they are effective with the cancels though.

But seriously, there is so much that makes Falco ****. Dude has one of the most brilliant jabs in the game. The range and speed of that thing is ridiculous. Not to mention Falco's **** frame traps; uair>aerial, sh uair> stuff, DA shenanigans, laser traps, etc. His moveset just leads into other **** frame traps again and again. Dude is too good. Surely he wishes to protect his bread. How the **** do you do that without being ****?

See this is why black people play Falco; if dude says hands off my bread you know hes gotta be goin in. Otherwise he'd just be that ***** to steal on.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Dude I don't see how anyone can think Falco is overrated. Falco is insane. Do you understand how big of a deal it is to have a repeative strategy that is viable in top levels of play. Falco's laser and phantasm spam is like legit as opposed to alot of other repeatative strategies like marths fair walling which is MUCH easier to stop.

He has like everything you could want in a character. His close game is quite phenominal thanks to probably the second best jab in the game. His ranged game is also about unmatched and his biggest flaws like recovery and weight aren't that bad considering his options of avoiding them. Btw his recovery isn't that bad. His phatasm is almost unreactable, cancels and is invincible the first third of his distance.

Most importantly he has a good MK MU which is about 70% of all that matters at top levels of play. The entire tier list is shaped by how good you match up against him as many otherwise great characters are supressed horribly because you can;t beat him. So that is one of the most important things.

2nd best jab? Who has the best jab? Luigi, Falcon, Lucas?

 

[san.]

People are making Falco's phantasm way more complicated than it actually is. Falco isn't going to have full freedom to precision perfect phantasm since he does not have the positional advantage offstage.

He can vary the height and the type of cancel of his phantasm, but he needs to do this quickly due to the linearity of the whole procedure. The use of his double jump as well as the startup frames of the phantasm can also be taken advantaged of.

 

[B.A.M.]

Thank you san! Someone with reason.

 

[CoonTail]

2nd best jab? Who has the best jab? Luigi, Falcon, Lucas?

I'm not sure exactly who has the best jab in the game, but squirtle's jab tends to be the truth.......just saying