Official BBR Matchup Chart v1.0

[Lenus Altair]

Also robs is better than pits. Pit is actually reasonably gimpable, robs is just too risky/take forever. Then again im a sheik main and am biased.

I don't see it that way. Robs recovery, while strong, is slower and less maneuverable then pits glide alone. He is also a bigger target. Yeah he can use it again if knocked out if it so long as he has the gas, but Pits glide can outmaneuver gimp attempts much better and still leave him with jumps and and up B.

Though maybe I'm bias because Pit gives Rob a harder time getting back onstage then vice versa.

 

[Nitrix]

When it comes to recovery, Pit has more options than ROB. He can use his jumps, glide, or just WOI.

Flying under the stage is nice for Pit since the opponent has to guess which side to pick. Pit can either glide to the other side, or cancel and WOI back to the ledge.

ROB on the other hand must take a much more linear path which in my eyes hurts his recovery.

 

[Steam]

RoB can stall a lot with his upB.... and if he conserves fuel (lol) you'll have to hit him back out 4-5 times to gimp him and if Rob really wants he can fly up and way above the stage before falling down.

pit's DJs and WOI are kinda pathetic. glide is good tho.

 

[Chuee]

WoI isn't really 'pathetic', I mean Pit can use it to recover under the stage if he needs to.

 

[Ranor469]

is there an accurate recovery tier list anywhere? One that ranks characters based on the SAFETY of their options (Especially against metaknight). I don't know very much about the jiggz/MK MU but I'm guessing jiggz doesnt really have the safest options and i remember old charts had her very high, and I also cant seem to find any :/ Im looking for one that prolly has the top 4 in some order as MK/GW/Pika/Wario
My main problem with any old one is that chars like ROB/Snake/DDD/Kirby/Pit/Puff are always ranked way too high because of their multi-jumps/upB even though this doesn't make it safe to recover. I just want one where distance isnt the main thing taken into consideration. For example, I feel Wolf had been placed too low because he seems to have bad recovery, yet if you use his recovery properly, his recovery would seem to work very well.

 

[Nitrix]

Wolf's recovery is mediocre at best.

Distance isn't the only thing taken into consideration. One thing that ROB/Snake/DDD/Kirby/Pit/Puff have over wolf is flexibility. Wolf has a very brittle recovery and doesn't have options when the other characters you've mentioned do.

If Wolf is put into a bad position, he is going to take tons of damage if he even gets back.
Lets say I play Pit and I arrow Wolf right before he side-b's, he is done for. This isn't true for any of the other characters you've mentioned.

 

[Ranor469]

You missed my point. I want to see a tier list and I was just giving some thoughts. I know wolf isnt better than any of the chars but http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=105832 is the most recent tier list i can find and the first tier has jiggs and not GW and this saddens me.

 

[Judo777]

Wolf's recovery is mediocre at best.

Distance isn't the only thing taken into consideration. One thing that ROB/Snake/DDD/Kirby/Pit/Puff have over wolf is flexibility. Wolf has a very brittle recovery and doesn't have options when the other characters you've mentioned do.

If Wolf is put into a bad position, he is going to take tons of damage if he even gets back.
Lets say I play Pit and I arrow Wolf right before he side-b's, he is done for. This isn't true for any of the other characters you've mentioned.

Correction wolfs recovery straight up sucks. Like probably 4th or 5thworst in the game. Honestly i think Ivysaur, Link, Ganon, Olimar, then wolf for worst recovery.

And Pits glide is good but he doesn't have alot of options during the glide other than t end it or change directions a little some people can prevent it with proper use of projectiles. And yea robs recovery is just sooooooo long. And his aerials are AMAZING. COmbine that with 2 projectiles he can use while coming back its pretty spectacular. Don't get me wrong pits is good but i think robs is better.

 

[Spelt]

ganon is worse than link imo.
you can punish him for hitting you with up b lolol

 

[Steam]

you honestly think Zelda has a better recovery than wolf?

really? :/

how?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Correction wolfs recovery straight up sucks. Like probably 4th or 5thworst in the game. Honestly i think Ivysaur, Link, Ganon, Olimar, then wolf for worst recovery.

You're wrong. Wolf's recovery is better then ALOT of characters...He even has the option to go through stages.

His recovery is better then Zelda, Sheik, Ivysaur, Link, Ganon, Olimar, Mario, Bowser, Ike, Lucario, just to name a few.

Wolf's recovery is mediocre at best.

Distance isn't the only thing taken into consideration. One thing that ROB/Snake/DDD/Kirby/Pit/Puff have over wolf is flexibility. Wolf has a very brittle recovery and doesn't have options when the other characters you've mentioned do.

If Wolf is put into a bad position, he is going to take tons of damage if he even gets back.
Lets say I play Pit and I arrow Wolf right before he side-b's, he is done for. This isn't true for any of the other characters you've mentioned.

No....He isn't done for. He can easily make it back. If the Wolf player is dumb enough to be super far away from the stage and way under it then of course it would work, but most people's DI isn't subhuman.

You missed my point. I want to see a tier list and I was just giving some thoughts. I know wolf isnt better than any of the chars but http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=105832 is the most recent tier list i can find and the first tier has jiggs and not GW and this saddens me.

That list isn't legit at all. That's just a random dude's opinions.

 

[Orion*]

Yeah Orion like, I agree with you a lot but this is just wrong, Pikachu is a pain to kill horizontally and not super light vertically either. Uair+sideb = pikachu lives to 150 pretty often.

Fair enough. Like I see esam livin but just from personal experience pikachu always dies early roflmao. I don't realy have great pika experience though, Ive mmed anther in like.... 09? lol

also, LOL judo I could flame you, wolfs recovery isn't THAT bad. XD

 

[Shaya]

Mm not 100% sure on Wolf's recovery being better than Lucarios. Like both landing on the stage can have their issues, and while Wolf can go greater distances, I rate lucario's dair for stalling and relatively lagless b-reversals which stops Marth from just bairing him to death (which Wolf can fall into if he gets unlucky).
But the others you listed, sure.

I'd rate Wolf's recovery better than DKs.
It's pretty easy to rate character's recoveries by how much they get bashed up by Marth's bair.

Also Pikachu never ****ing dies.
And he handles the bair better than MK.
****ing
rat.

 

[Orion*]

Mm not 100% sure on Wolf's recovery being better than Lucarios. Like both landing on the stage can have their issues, and while Wolf can go greater distances, I rate lucario's dair for stalling and relatively lagless b-reversals which stops Marth from just bairing him to death (which Wolf can fall into if he gets unlucky).
But the others you listed, sure.

I'd rate Wolf's recovery better than DKs.
It's pretty easy to rate character's recoveries by how much they get bashed up by Marth's bair.

Also Pikachu never ****ing dies.
And he handles the bair better than MK.
****ing
rat.

The problem I have with Lucarios upB is that its really easy to just option cover it and then he dies. you only really have to watch out if he has a jump left so you dont get hit by uair/fair or lol aurasphere.

Wolf has both upB and sideB (if you miss hitting him out of sideB btw you can die), Various Side B cancel mixups and scarring.

If he recovers High he also has the breversal gun to mix up his spacing plus shine and relatively safe back airs to land with. Mind you, Lucarios dair is pretty gay but he ONLY has that and airdodge to mix up with. Although I do think he is harder to juggle than wolf people really have a problem against dair >_>

 

[Shaya]

Lucario also has wall jump.

 

[Lenus Altair]

And Pits glide is good but he doesn't have alot of options during the glide other than t end it or change directions a little some people can prevent it with proper use of projectiles. And yea robs recovery is just sooooooo long. And his aerials are AMAZING. COmbine that with 2 projectiles he can use while coming back its pretty spectacular. Don't get me wrong pits is good but i think robs is better.

Pits options out of glide aren't as numerous as out of Robs up B is true. He can maneuver in glide much better then Rob can in his Up B. Both recoveries can be harassed by projectiles, but hitting Pit's glide requires a read. Not getting hit while recovering with Robs Up B requires the Rob player to predict/react. Plus hey, iF pit does get knocked out of glide, he still has a jump and his own Up B which is not as easy to gimp as you seem to think between fast falling it, wing stalling, attacking out of it, and it being safe to land right on stage when canceled. It has a lot of options

Pits Aerials are solid too with respectable disjoints, and frankly his arrow is better at consistently harassing would be edge guarders then robs on the way back.

If Pit gets back on stage he will do so with minimal damage. If Rob does, he's probably taken 40%+. And with how easy he is to harass off stage, I feel he gets back on less then Pit. That's my experience anyway.

 

[Luigi player]

Wolfs recovery sucks until the Wolf starts Light-Stepping which makes him gain another DJ and he's lagfree to perform any attack (like uair).

I know it might not be that scary for some characters, but others (like Diddy Kong) need to stay safe and not risk too much (don't want to eat a sudden uair or something), even if you edgehog Wolf he can do it and hit you while you're still on the ledge trying to take it away from him so he dies...

Just watch Semifer play and you know what I mean... (if you don't)

 

[Max Ketchum]

Wolf's recovery isn't that horrible. It's predictable and linear, but it has decent distance and okay hitboxes. I agree that lightstepping makes him scarier offstage, but it doesn't really give him any leverage as far as actually getting to the ledge goes.

 

[Suspect]

you guys might want to change the olimar/dk matchup

 

[Orion*]

Lucario also has wall jump.

Lucario just shouldnt be getting that far XD

maybe im biased because i play mk though LOL

 

[da K.I.D.]

i think lots of people say stupid things in here because of who they main.

I play 3 different characters in tournament and like 20 recreationally, when you try to rate things like a characters recovery, or approach options you have to rate them against and in comparison to the whole cast, not just your character. This is where lots of people trip up and start saying stupid things like wolf recovery is bottom tier, just because they play shiek.

just because your character is good against some move, character or tactic, does not mean that that move, character or tactic is not actually good.

unless you play mk, that ***** stays breakin rules.

 

[Albert.]

I liked the last line in that post ^^^

BTW DK PLANKING TOO good he's top tier now right guys?

 

[Steam]

Lucario just shouldnt be getting that far XD

maybe im biased because i play mk though LOL

that's probably why... he's one of the only characters that can really abuse lucarios recovery...

Lucario's is probably better because in basically every matchup if he DIs onstage well he should never need his upB due to his floatiness, huge second jump and decent airspeed. He can also easily put himself above his opponent which is usually good. also if he's forced to use upB, if he doesn't cancel it on the stage he can usually at least land in some way shape or form to refresh his jump... but yeah MK ***** luc's recovery >.> as do marth and RoB

 

[Orion*]

i think lots of people say stupid things in here because of who they main.

I play 3 different characters in tournament and like 20 recreationally, when you try to rate things like a characters recovery, or approach options you have to rate them against and in comparison to the whole cast, not just your character. This is where lots of people trip up and start saying stupid things like wolf recovery is bottom tier, just because they play shiek.

just because your character is good against some move, character or tactic, does not mean that that move, character or tactic is not actually good.

unless you play mk, that ***** stays breakin rules.

Na chill- theres a reason I said I'm probably biased regarding the wall cling option. I realize that you have to rate recovery relative to the whole cast.

that's probably why... he's one of the only characters that can really abuse lucarios recovery...

Lucario's is probably better because in basically every matchup if he DIs onstage well he should never need his upB due to his floatiness, huge second jump and decent airspeed. He can also easily put himself above his opponent which is usually good. also if he's forced to use upB, if he doesn't cancel it on the stage he can usually at least land in some way shape or form to refresh his jump... but yeah MK ***** luc's recovery >.> as do marth and RoB

LOLOLOL

No lucarios recovery is very abusable with a lot of characters.

From personal experience alone, not even including characters I dont really play

Mario, DK, Diddy, Wario, Kirby, MK, DDD, Falco(get @ me john#s ), Marth, Jiggs, Snake

can make lucario do work LOL

 

[Steam]

D3 and kirby too... jiggz to a lesser extent, most of the others lucario would have to be using his upB to really have his recovery abused...

edit: also wall cling is bad in most matchups... just footstool him and watch him die... or read the AD or Uair he does in order to not get footstooled and crush him for it. either way 50-50 chance at stock... lucario will almost always have better odds trying something else. but as a last resort it's functional.

and yeah I think me and orion have different definitions of recovery abuse lol. because there really isn't a single character lucario is completely safe against in every situation.

 

[tekkie]

Wolfs recovery sucks until the Wolf starts Light-Stepping which makes him gain another DJ and he's lagfree to perform any attack (like uair).

I know it might not be that scary for some characters, but others (like Diddy Kong) need to stay safe and not risk too much (don't want to eat a sudden uair or something), even if you edgehog Wolf he can do it and hit you while you're still on the ledge trying to take it away from him so he dies...

Just watch Semifer play and you know what I mean... (if you don't)

fair literally beats the hell out of wolf's sideB. since the sideB startup is a billion frames just wait for it and enjoy your free hit. if they maneuver to upB then take the edge and hit wolf with just about anything.

it boggles my mind that people think diddy is slow or something

 

[John12346]

Falco(get @ me john#s )

No that's called you can abuse Lucario when he's trying to abuse your recovery.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm late to the party, but Ivysaur's recovery isn't quite Ganon-tier, guys. Learn to Razor Leaf away from the stage. >_>

 

[Orion*]

No that's called you can abuse Lucario when he's trying to abuse your recovery.

It still was hilarious

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

He can land lagglessly on stage if you space the end correctly, but that's pretty hard.

His ability to get back is fine, his UpB is kinda bad like he goes for the ledge, which is fine, or he curves on stage where people try and attack him.

I wish it had a hitbox, *sigh*

 

[Orion*]

I actually didnt know about the lagless part. /takes note

does it have to do with the height you end it or what?

 

[z00ted]

um there is a problem here

according to the bbr ruleset, DK vs Olimar should at least be 80:20 in Dk's favor.

 

[BSP]

What exactly is the BBR ruleset atm? I thought they retired it, and the BRC hasn't released anything with specific rules yet, just a stage list

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

well ryu i concede but only because i failed do to habit jons. and trela too good. almost beat ****ing ally

 

[Alphicans]

um there is a problem here

according to the bbr ruleset, DK vs Olimar should at least be 80:20 in Dk's favor.

The ruleset we used to make this chart assumed a lgl.

 

[Steam]

I actually didnt know about the lagless part. /takes note

does it have to do with the height you end it or what?

if lucario ends parallel to the stage at stage level he'll have almost no lag. it's the same landing you get if you use ES on the ground and just use it along the stage. he lands on his feet.

he can also slightly reduce lag and bounce in a direction if he collides with the stage, this can happen if he takes too steep of an angle trying to do the above. more lag than ending parallel, but he gets a bounce and it's much easier to do.

and then he has the normal landing out of fall special that everyone punishes.

yay

 

[Browny]

Meh, I rarely have troubles recovering as lucario. of course thats probably 99% caused by the fact that australia is terrible, but I also dont DI like a ******, I wouldnt be surprised if I use upb less than 3 times a match, honestly its pretty easy to recover high when you di properly and with his massive dj and dair stall, few characters have the means to force lucario to recover low, let alone force an upb often. Sure those who do, give him a lot of trouble, but they also **** the majority of the cast's recovery.

Getting off the ledge... Now that can be tricky. I think it balances out fine though considering how hard lucario can pressure people recovering near or on the ledge. Fsmash and offstage FCAS :3

 

[phi1ny3]

You've also got that glitch where it bounces you super far from the ledge:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YqyRnFHlSQ

@Red Ryu: Or like it is in B+ and has no helpless, allowing you to do aerials afterwards.

 

[Steam]

there's also that thing where lucario cancels on the ledge and gets his jump back...

sadly all of it is basically impossible to do consistantly : (

 

[Deleted member]

there's also that thing where lucario cancels on the ledge and gets his jump back...

Sort of like Wolf's Light Step?