Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

I'll test it with someone next chance I get, that's all I can say lol.

 

[iffy525]

I don't think I've ever seen shorten actually covered without giving up coverage elsewhere, and doing that turns it into a bad 50/50. Same goes for that perfect firefox sweetspot that goes under jab (falco can just shoot both of these lol so good).

I'll believe it when I see it, but I think spacies can just force ledge in a lot of instances vs marth.

second jab covers shorten

 

[Diakonos]

Well, for me the shfair would certainly be on reaction. I suppose I was thinking about Fox, though I don't imagine it would be that much harder against Falco? I'm not sure. I guess if I see I don't have time to do anything, I usually just shield.

Is jab actually a viable option against a high Falco illusion? I find that it hasn't worked too well for me. Maybe I'll have to play around with it more. I've also thought about utilt as a read, but can it be done on reaction? Does it come out high enough, on time?

It kind of annoys me when people say Falco has a terribad recovery. Clearly the last few pages of discussion would suggest he's not doing so bad. Now Marth, on the other hand...

 

[FrootLoop]

Generally I think marth should just save the jump and side B stall as much as safely possible. This way you can spend the most time threatening the ledge to clear it for yourself. You can force ledge without too much trouble if you don't get knocked too far away. Pewpewu and m2k are the people I see do this the best. Of course, even once you get the ledge marth just gets every door back to neutral slammed in his face until he dies anyway.

 

[Bones0]

If you don't get the weird hitbox on utilt, you're just going to send them behind you back onto the stage. I doubt you can get the weird hitbox consistently either.

second jab covers shorten

Why would the second jab cover it any better than the first?

 

[Construct]

Watch PewPewU videos religiously and your recovery will get better
Marth actually has a ton of tricks, most people just recover in a far too linear manner

 

[knightpraetor]

Well, for me the shfair would certainly be on reaction. I suppose I was thinking about Fox, though I don't imagine it would be that much harder against Falco? I'm not sure. I guess if I see I don't have time to do anything, I usually just shield.

Is jab actually a viable option against a high Falco illusion? I find that it hasn't worked too well for me. Maybe I'll have to play around with it more. I've also thought about utilt as a read, but can it be done on reaction? Does it come out high enough, on time?

It kind of annoys me when people say Falco has a terribad recovery. Clearly the last few pages of discussion would suggest he's not doing so bad. Now Marth, on the other hand...

you're so much nicer than me, but yeah i wonder what they are thinking sometimes...

Recovery can't be judged outside of the height of the char's DJ, the strength of the char's downward facing and horizontal facing ranged attacks, as well as the ability of the char to reset to neutral once the character acquires the ledge. Falco's recovery is good. There is also a bias towards considering fox's recovery much better because bad marths use too many moves that are easily DIable at percents when they send the opponent off too high..and fox is really favored over falco if he has height because his up b is godly. But at higher level the marths should be using far more ftilt and dtilt and nair than those fsmashes...and good marths will even stop a combo early and poke the opponent off lightly instead of trying to tipper fair fair fair spike etc. So fox's advantages over falco are far less at higher level.

Peronsally I think falco has better options to avoid gimps than fox, so i would prefer to be falco if the marth has a dthrow at the ledge...knocked off low it doesn't matter..the marth should kill you most of the time, and knocked off high, of course fox is massively favored..but this really shouldn't be happening that much

 

[MT_]

If you don't get the weird hitbox on utilt, you're just going to send them behind you back onto the stage. I doubt you can get the weird hitbox consistently either.

Not saying I've tested this extensively or anything, but don't knock it til you try it! You'd be surprised how consistently you might get the weird hitbox. And if you do get the tipper, they'll probably be DIing do that they'd get sent far off the other side of the stage anyway (depending on what stage you're playing on of course).

 

[knightpraetor]

well I for one am hesitant to go back to using uptilt till I see a marth use it consistently in tourney. I used to get a lot of kills with sourspot uptilt, but there is always that one tourney when you wonder if you could have won if the uptilt had not brought them on stage

 

[Kadano]

If you don't get the weird hitbox on utilt, you're just going to send them behind you back onto the stage. I doubt you can get the weird hitbox consistently either.

Because I haven’t had a proper understanding of utilt’s hitboxes, I just made some tests and condensated my findings in an image. Maybe this will help somebody.

Why would the second jab cover it any better than the first?

I think he meant he’d time it so that first jab hits full-length illusion and second jab shortened. I thought this was possible, too, but I just checked and it actually isn’t. Both jab1 and jab2 can hit shortens from above, but never (not even on YS) sweetspot (as low as possible) full-length or shortens.
Fair doesn’t cover both either, especially if Fox is about as high as Marth standing on the stage. With shdf, the time difference is way too large, so if the first one covers full-length, the second one is far too late for a shorten.

There are very few options that cover both full-length and shorten. The only one I’ve found so far is side-B against Fox at this height:

If you press side-B 12 frames after Fox started his side-B and do the second neutral hit as soon as possible, both full-length and shorten are covered. And no, Fox can’t grab the edge afterwards, not even at 0%. If he SDIs up the first slash, he can side-B to the ledge, but he’d get hit by the second slash. If he shortens and gets hit by the second slash and SDIs that up, he can also side-B, but you can hit him with d-tilt.
Both side-B’s first and second slash must be timed frame perfect (0 frames tolerance) for this.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I ****ing love Kadano omg

 

[dkuo]

dat utilt diagram

 

[MT_]

Kadano I love your posts and how informative they are. Never stop.

Regarding side-B, what percents can Fox start to simply DI the side-B onto the stage?

 

[Strong Badam]

kadano: knockback growth is abbreviated "KBG," otherwise good stuff

 

[Kadano]

kadano: knockback growth is abbreviated "KBG," otherwise good stuff

I used the abbreviations I found in SSBM Hitboxes (NTSC 1.0).xslx, I thought this was a great reference. Can you link me one that’s more agreed on?

Kadano I love your posts and how informative they are. Never stop.

Thank you! I won’t.

Regarding side-B, what percents can Fox start to simply DI the side-B onto the stage?

With double SDI (180°→135°) at 0% (second slash still hits him though, yay!). With single SDI at about 10%. Without SDI in a few cases as soon as 30% (if he manages to get hit by side-B’s inner hitbubbles so he’s close to the stage¹), but in most not before 146%.
Also, side-B follow up is extremely good. From like 10% on, you get the first 3 neutral hits, except if Fox DIs it so that he ends up in a worse position anyway.

¹Because illusion’s traveling speed is so fast (about 9 times as fast as Marth’s dashing speed), the distance covered between two frames is much larger than Marth’s side-B’s total hitbox size. This means that Fox will not move into your attack, but rather pop up within it. The distance between you and Fox determines whether Fox will pop up at the tip of your sword (desirable) or at the hilt.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Because I haven’t had a proper understanding of utilt’s hitboxes, I just made some tests and condensated my findings in an image. Maybe this will help somebody.

Dude, you need to hit up the Masterhand program.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/tool-master-hand-v1-20-melee-character-file-viewer.313930/

Also, I think all those 45 degree should be replaced by the 361 angle. If I recall, its pretty much an angle that will scale with damage. Something like a 30 degree angle at lower percents, and a 45 degree angle at higher percents.

 

[Kadano]

Dude, you need to hit up the Masterhand program.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/tool-master-hand-v1-20-melee-character-file-viewer.313930/

Funny that you mention this, Strong Bad linked it to me just a couple of hours ago. Yeah, I can’t wait messing with it!

Also, I think all those 45 degree should be replaced by the 361 angle. If I recall, its pretty much an angle that will scale with damage. Something like a 30 degree angle at lower percents, and a 45 degree angle at higher percents.

I didn’t know about this special angle, so thanks! Omniscient Magus wrote a page about it. For utilt, knockback angle is 44° against grounded opponents and 45° against aerial opponents so I don’t think this makes an edit necessary. (Even against a crouching Bowser with 0%, launch speed is 1,35 > 0,963)

 

[FrootLoop]

double frame perfect = no thanks. I think I'll just cover everything but shorten and hold the advantage.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah, agree with frootloop on that one. I just focus on knocking them off far enough that they are forced to do a frame perfect shorten as opposed to the free short shorten, and then just take the 50-50 on the free short shorten

 

[Deleted member]

Watch PewPewU videos religiously and your recovery will get better
Marth actually has a ton of tricks, most people just recover in a far too linear manner

man isn't this the disgusting truth. i don't remember ever feeling like marth's recovery was bad.

back to dodging/hating this thread.

pp is wack.

 

[Bones0]

yeah, agree with frootloop on that one. I just focus on knocking them off far enough that they are forced to do a frame perfect shorten as opposed to the free short shorten, and then just take the 50-50 on the free short shorten

As long as they can't ledge cancel (LC) their side-B on a plat, there's no reason to give them a free shoten. Marth is the only character with the right move for the job (dtilt), so it doesn't make sense to give it up every time. If they can't LC on a plat, you just stand at the ledge. Dtilt on reaction to side-B, and it won't matter if they shortened. If they side-B too high to dtilt, jab instead. If they side-B too high too jab, I don't think they can hit you (definitely not if you crouch on reaction), so just punish their side-B's landing lag. If they are able to LC, you will have to choose between potentially giving up center stage by allowing them to go for the LC and just trying to punish their cancel somehow (a lot of spacies will always FF bair, so you can just grab it), or you can give up the ledge (definitely let them have the ledge if they cannot ledge dash). You can also try to jump out there to hit them (to be at LC spacing they have to be fairly close to the stage, perhaps with YS being the exception) but I don't really like doing that because if you screw up they have stage control.

man isn't this the disgusting truth. i don't remember ever feeling like marth's recovery was bad.

back to dodging/hating this thread.

pp is wack.

Probably because everyone ever falls for the dumbest Marth tricks ever, like side-Bing to make the opponent think he is up-Bing. That **** should never work, but I guess it's all Marth has anyway. Marths should just be ready for the day when people start edgeguarding him properly (at least with spacies), and you will have to start landing on stage and ground teching whatever attack they LH with. Who am I kidding, people never learn.

 

[Strong Badam]

I used the abbreviations I found in SSBM Hitboxes (NTSC 1.0).xslx, I thought this was a great reference. Can you link me one that’s more agreed on?

"KBG" has been used since 2008 when we were still hex editing hitbox properties during Brawl+ development. It's referred to as KBG in PSA, Master Hand, and my Knockback & Hitstun calculator. Base Knockback is similarly abbreviated BKB. This is mostly because Knockback is never simply abbreviated "K" when speaking about it in general, but rather as "KB".

Would you mind linking me to that spreadsheet? I've never heard of it.

 

[knightpraetor]

As long as they can't ledge cancel (LC) their side-B on a plat, there's no reason to give them a free shoten. Marth is the only character with the right move for the job (dtilt), so it doesn't make sense to give it up every time. If they can't LC on a plat, you just stand at the ledge. Dtilt on reaction to side-B, and it won't matter if they shortened. If they side-B too high to dtilt, jab instead. If they side-B too high too jab, I don't think they can hit you (definitely not if you crouch on reaction), so just punish their side-B's landing lag. If they are able to LC, you will have to choose between potentially giving up center stage by allowing them to go for the LC and just trying to punish their cancel somehow (a lot of spacies will always FF bair, so you can just grab it), or you can give up the ledge (definitely let them have the ledge if they cannot ledge dash). You can also try to jump out there to hit them (to be at LC spacing they have to be fairly close to the stage, perhaps with YS being the exception) but I don't really like doing that because if you screw up they have stage control.



Probably because everyone ever falls for the dumbest Marth tricks ever, like side-Bing to make the opponent think he is up-Bing. That **** should never work, but I guess it's all Marth has anyway. Marths should just be ready for the day when people start edgeguarding him properly (at least with spacies), and you will have to start landing on stage and ground teching whatever attack they LH with. Who am I kidding, people never learn.

The problem of course is that you aren't always close enough by the time they can jump and set up for it. If that were not the case, marths would probably edgeguard falcos almost 100% of the time.

and people I play don't fail to edgeguard marth from reacting to side b wrong, it's because they either fail to invuln refresh (every fox or falco i have played in my life except for wenbo) or because they are really bad and try to light shield edgehog in a million places where they shouldn't (it's notable that everyone who light shield edgehogs as their primary edgeguard rather than using it only for spots where it is guaranteed end up having the lowest edgeguard rates on me of all spacies I play).

even PP didn't use the invuln refresh correctly when I played him. I think that most foxes and falcos aren't willing to risk messing up and suiciding during it. so they take easier but less guaranteed stuff.

most foxes I play just repeatedly die because they try to drop down shine when the marth correctly spaces at ranges where he isn't under the fox and the marth angles his up b and instakills them. And to think if they had just refreshed their invuln they would have had a guaranteed edgeguard. I have to wonder why they are so inconsistent at it that they aren't willing to risk it. is it that hard? I don't know cause I never had more than an 80% hit rate on it and I don't edgeguard marth properly either...


also, 0e, 0c for life. if you aren't using them then i pity you

 

[Bones0]

The problem of course is that you aren't always close enough by the time they can jump and set up for it. If that were not the case, marths would probably edgeguard falcos almost 100% of the time.

and people I play don't fail to edgeguard marth from reacting to side b wrong, it's because they either fail to invuln refresh (every fox or falco i have played in my life except for wenbo) or because they are really bad and try to light shield edgehog in a million places where they shouldn't (it's notable that everyone who light shield edgehogs as their primary edgeguard rather than using it only for spots where it is guaranteed end up having the lowest edgeguard rates on me of all spacies I play).

even PP didn't use the invuln refresh correctly when I played him. I think that most foxes and falcos aren't willing to risk messing up and suiciding during it. so they take easier but less guaranteed stuff.

most foxes I play just repeatedly die because they try to drop down shine when the marth correctly spaces at ranges where he isn't under the fox and the marth angles his up b and instakills them. And to think if they had just refreshed their invuln they would have had a guaranteed edgeguard. I have to wonder why they are so inconsistent at it that they aren't willing to risk it. is it that hard? I don't know cause I never had more than an 80% hit rate on it and I don't edgeguard marth properly either...


also, 0e, 0c for life. if you aren't using them then i pity you

People definitely react to side-B wrong, but from Marth's perspective it also seems like they probably just got scared because they ran out of invul too. That's why I just ledge grab as late as possible, ledge stall once, and then roll or LH an attack. It's not even hard, so idk why it's so rare. I understand people are worried about being counter-killed, but I don't even see people attempt it in friendlies. Hell, when I'm at really low percents, I sometimes don't even worry about getting hit by early up-Bs because I can just DJ after the stun and still hit Marth back off stage.

 

[FourStar]

these diagrams are so trippy like holy ****

 

[Kadano]

"KBG" has been used since 2008 when we were still hex editing hitbox properties during Brawl+ development. It's referred to as KBG in PSA, Master Hand, and my Knockback & Hitstun calculator. Base Knockback is similarly abbreviated BKB. This is mostly because Knockback is never simply abbreviated "K" when speaking about it in general, but rather as "KB".

Alright, that makes sense. I’ll refer to it as KB in the future.

Would you mind linking me to that spreadsheet? I've never heard of it.

I actually don’t remember where I found it and Google didn’t produce anything, haha. All I know is that it was published on 2011-06-21 by “Andrew”. Sure: SSBM Hitboxes (NTSC 1.0)

 

[Niko45]

Why dis game so hard

 

[Bones0]

Why dis game so hard

Sakurai is an evil genius.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Side B to cover Fox side B? Strange.

Afaik, I tend to struggle more with clever up-Bs from Twitch than his side Bs but I'll mess around with this when I get to play him again next weekend.

Also, hi Max!

 

[Xyzz]

Hi Marth boards... I've decided to pick up that sword swinging dude with the Tiara and make him my serious secondary (he's sooo much fun ).
What would be some Marth specific tech things that'd be worth-wile to learn? For now I have sh double fair and the cg on spacies on my list (and the obvious things like getting 100% familiar with the hitlag on every aerial, how long his initial dash is, learning his matchups, etcpp).

 

[Beat!]

- Dtilt
- Fthrow pivot fsmash vs Puff
- Dtilt
- Shield drop uair on plats
- Why aren't you dtilting yet
- up-B to punish lag
- holy **** it's such a good move I swear just do it

etc.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Don't forget to dtilt.

 

[Strong Badam]

also dtilt

 

[Bones0]

so i herd u liek dtilt

 

[Xyzz]

So the only difference between Marth and Peach is using the tilt instead of the smash? Alrighty, I got this!


Actually, what do I use dtilt for?
- Spaced on shields, because it's pretty safe since it reaches so far and is too fast for wd oos > grab.
- Edgeguards since it reaches a bit below stage level.
- As a general approach, since it neatly covers both shielding and pretty much every grounded response my opponent might try (it seems to clank / beat a lot of stuff; can't be easily DD > grabbed, because it reaches so far and has like no ending lag, and is safe on attempted CC). So they'd have to take to the air, which they generally want to avoid against Marth.

Did I miss something, or got the wrong impression on any of those?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It is a poke good sir.

A poke.

Not an approach.

But you CAN approach out of Dtilt.

The dash forward is the approach, if anything.

Dtilt is a poke.

 

[BTmoney]

It is a poke good sir.

A poke.

Not an approach.

But you CAN approach out of Dtilt.

The dash forward is the approach, if anything.

Dtilt is a poke.

So does Marth not have an "approach" outside of dash/grab?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on how you want to define approach I suppose.

As Marth primarily zones, he cannot really approach except through big zoning lunges. These lunges can only really be achieved when people respect his zoning in the first place, or Marth picks a very good time to move forward.

Marth may be on the line in terms of approaching....he kind of can thanks to Dtilt forcing people to respect him, but he kind of can't because his moves are fairly limited for approaching-style purposes(look at that laggy and unhelpful Fair arc). He's a very fun character to think about for me lol.

 

[Xyzz]

Haha, ya, calling dtilt an approach really is not the most accurate expression (:

But imho it's a really good poke that can be used pretty reliably to move into the opponents threatened space, which kinda feels like approaching :D

 

[Dr Peepee]

A good way to describe it!

The distinction is still important imo.