Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Divinokage]

Be careful with fairs too.. you dont want to get caught having to deal with a blocked one from up close especially spacies. Marth has to choose wisely or get juggled (mostly) for it.

 

[Bones0]

I asked my Marth training partner DJ about the edgeguarding dilemma, and he said he feels like he empty hops on reaction to high DJs, and then fairs on reaction to the high side-B. If the spacie dips back down for a low side-B, he just FF empty lands and dtilts. Seems sound to me, anyway.

 

[Beat!]

So the only difference between Marth and Peach is using the tilt instead of the smash? Alrighty, I got this!


Actually, what do I use dtilt for?
- Spaced on shields, because it's pretty safe since it reaches so far and is too fast for wd oos > grab.
- Edgeguards since it reaches a bit below stage level.
- As a general approach, since it neatly covers both shielding and pretty much every grounded response my opponent might try (it seems to clank / beat a lot of stuff; can't be easily DD > grabbed, because it reaches so far and has like no ending lag, and is safe on attempted CC). So they'd have to take to the air, which they generally want to avoid against Marth.

Pretty much, yeah. Your third bullet point is one of the main appeals of dtilt imo (the "approach" part is debatable but you've already gone over that). Forcing the opponent into the air on your terms is great, because ground->air and air->air is where Marth truly shines.

 

[Diakonos]

Alright, so let's say the dtilt isn't the approach itself. It certainly seems to be used in connection with what I would call an approach. Lots of Marths wavedash into poke. Lots dash-dance into poke. How exactly does this work?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

When they run away (say against an opposing marth, spacie, etc), you can dash crouch dtilt. Otherwise, you can DD out of the way of typically any attack space depending.

 

[Bones0]

I usually think of an "approach" as being defined as a commitment to hit the opponent (including the opponent's shield). You may zone with attacks or pokes and make contact, but I don't really consider them approaches because you didn't commit to hitting with it. You don't really have any solid investment in a stray dtilt hitting unlike a Marth going for a run up grab or a spacie SHFFLing at an opponent. I realize this doesn't really say anything, but I think we should at least have a decent definition of what constitutes an approach before we start discussing how to "approach" with dtilt.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright, so let's say the dtilt isn't the approach itself. It certainly seems to be used in connection with what I would call an approach. Lots of Marths wavedash into poke. Lots dash-dance into poke. How exactly does this work?

I'm not sure exactly what you're asking, but perhaps I could phrase this differently.

If an approach is an attempt to move into the opponent's space with the intent to hit/pressure them, then we could say that (wave)dashing forward into Dtilt is an approach. However, that does not necessarily make Dtilt an approaching tool anyway because it is fully dependent on those forward-reaching movements. I consider the forward movements to be the approach and Dtilt is the move choice used for that particular approach. It is sort of zone-y by nature of Dtilt's hitbox and push mechanic so it doesn't feel like a true approach since Marth cannot really convert the "approach" to a full punishment. That is why I hesitate to label advancing Dtilt an approach.....it is still incremental and makes more of an attempt to take stage or get a certain reaction from the opponent.

I would call a SH Fair/Nair forward an approach before I would call advancing Dtilt can approach simply because of the higher level of pressure and punishment the aerials offer. Dtilt does not offer much of either and feels more passive, sort of between an advancing jab and an advancing aerial.

I feel I may have confused this issue more, but maybe this will provide another perspective/make a little more sense haha. Feel free to discuss =)

 

[BTmoney]

I consider it a gamble with an almost negligible downside (dependent). If you hit, then you just got stage and percent (and possibly whatever soft follow ups), if you don't or they shield and you spaced it well/acted out of the IASA appropriately then you're kind of safe.
I don't actually know how punishable it is, I don't really get punished for "mindlessly" spamming it unless they jump over it.
But when I play I literally spam things intentionally and choose certain options just to see how my opponent deals with it, if they can.

That's how I feel, except versus Falcon and Falco whiffing against those two characters is extra bad IMO. But I don't play Marth against those characters because lasers are stupid and trying to out DD a character with a better DD is also stupid lol.

 

[Diakonos]

Gee whiz, I liked 2007 when we just approached with SHFFL'd nairs. But I think I get what you mean, PP. Moving into their face is an approach in that your intention is to pressure/hit them. The dtilt seems to be a follow up to that "approach", thus defined. I wonder whether the combination of the two might not also be called an approach, but I can see why you would hesitate.

I realize that I'm just plain bad at doing it. I am not very good at controlling exactly how far forward I'll go with the WD, or at stoping my dash when I want to. Maybe I'm just bad at wavedash and dash dancing...

 

[Bones0]

I consider it a gamble with an almost negligible downside (dependent). If you hit, then you just got stage and percent (and possibly whatever soft follow ups), if you don't or they shield and you spaced it well/acted out of the IASA appropriately then you're kind of safe.
I don't actually know how punishable it is, I don't really get punished for "mindlessly" spamming it unless they jump over it.
But when I play I literally spam things intentionally and choose certain options just to see how my opponent deals with it, if they can.

That's how I feel, except versus Falcon and Falco whiffing against those two characters is extra bad IMO. But I don't play Marth against those characters because lasers are stupid and trying to out DD a character with a better DD is also stupid lol.

If you whiff a dtilt vs. Falco and you think he's going to approach, just WD back or fade away fair. There's no way he can punish it except by lasering you after gaining a bit of stage. In fact, I don't think you should ever be in a situation where you are using a move that isn't whiff-proof vs. him. That probably sounds impossible, but just tipping everything, not throwing out hasty fsmashes or utilts or landing with predictable fairs prevents 99% of those situations that I see most Marths get punished for. Lasers are stupid vs. anyone, so you might as well choose Marth since he has the easiest PS game of all the top tiers (except perhaps Sheik).

 

[Deleted member]

dealing with lasers is hardly dependent on powershielding. i would argue that marth is terrible vs lasers because powershielding is his best option for dealing with them (jumping over them forces marth to engage in an air to ground interaction, which is buns for him). lasers are strong vs the dash dancers (marth fox falcon) regardless but it's much better to be fox or falcon where jumping doesn't automatically put you in a bad position. besides, to me at least it's pretty clear that the air control chars (peach, jigglypuff) are much better vs lasers naturally than any kind of powersheilding is.

 

[Bones0]

dealing with lasers is hardly dependent on powershielding. i would argue that marth is terrible vs lasers because powershielding is his best option for dealing with them (jumping over them forces marth to engage in an air to ground interaction, which is buns for him). lasers are strong vs the dash dancers (marth fox falcon) regardless but it's much better to be fox or falcon where jumping doesn't automatically put you in a bad position. besides, to me at least it's pretty clear that the air control chars (peach, jigglypuff) are much better vs lasers naturally than any kind of powersheilding is.

I agree you shouldn't rely on PSing to deal with lasers entirely, but it's hard to ignore how big of a deal it is to be able to reflect lasers and take no shield stun from them, allowing you to move in for a counterattack immediately. Falco may be able to laser camp vs. DDers a bit more easily than chars who can go over them, but camping with lasers is a bad strategy either way because Falco has no reliable anti-approach tools once they finally get close enough to engage him (no, I don't consider turn around utilt reliable). Marth's long range lets him threaten Falco MUCH earlier than a Fox could because a Falco that SHLs a roll length from Fox just has to worry about him jumping over it and coming down on top of him with an attack which he can usually react to by moving or shielding. SHLing in front of Marth at this same distance will get you tippered with downward DI, or if you get off easy, you'll only get poked by a dtilt or fair. Even if Marth doesn't proactively do anything after shielding a laser, if Falco tries to approach after one, there are few characters better than Marth at WDing into a pivot grab to avoid the approach and turn it into a huge punish. Marth may not have a very good aerial approach game to beat lasers, but his ground game is very potent when combined with PSing. His long WD OoS and great grab (both in terms of range and punishment) mean he can grab a lot after PSing. Other characters, while still capable of grabbing as a followup to PSing, typically cannot go as far a distance as Marth can in that short amount of time after the PS before the Falco regains control. Giving him an amazing shield for PSing on top of all of this (standing, crouching, and dashing all leave huge areas of shield for PSing).

Also, I think Puff is pretty overrated when it comes to getting around lasers. It's pretty easy to set up a laser wall to constantly keep her facing you (prevent her from bairing), and if she's ever on the ground she is trapped there pretty bad. She can crouch to PS well, but her short WD and grab range and almost nonexistent dash means she can rarely capitalize hard after PSs. People seem to think she's good at dealing with them because she doesn't tend to get directly punished out of them like other characters might, but as an overall measure of how it affects her game, I think it's a much bigger deal than people think. A Puff that can't play neutral facing backwards and get can't off the ground is not a happy Puff.

 

[Deleted member]

get him chi.

 

[clowsui]

i just got back from cedar pt

i'll respond later

 

[Dr Peepee]

dealing with lasers is hardly dependent on powershielding. i would argue that marth is terrible vs lasers because powershielding is his best option for dealing with them (jumping over them forces marth to engage in an air to ground interaction, which is buns for him). lasers are strong vs the dash dancers (marth fox falcon) regardless but it's much better to be fox or falcon where jumping doesn't automatically put you in a bad position. besides, to me at least it's pretty clear that the air control chars (peach, jigglypuff) are much better vs lasers naturally than any kind of powersheilding is.

Marth's powershield is amazing(and easier than the average PS by far) and grants him his DD back. It is not unrealistic to believe one could master the skill and make it very difficult for Falco to laser effectively.

This is ignoring the other benefits gained by getting some movement back.

 

[Deleted member]

no argument, but making laser ineffective =/= preventing falco from gaining stage control with it. the laser is much more than a mobile stun box, strategically speaking. i think we should all come back to this and develop our ideas better. i have to run out too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'll respond when more of us are around then. I recently did a ton of thinking about lasers and wouldn't mind having this discussion right now at all.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I feel like Peach's powershield game deserves an honorable mention (@ Bones0), considering her amazing shield-to-body ratio, the fact that her dash forward (which makes it even easier) allows her to "check" her opponent's positioning and take a good response, and since she can float OOS after a powershield, it puts her in a position vs Falco that is probably unmatched. I dunno exactly why I decided to type this, except I remember thinking that her PS game > Sheik's, and is probably on par with Marth's.

I was under the assumption that Falco's lasers were exceptional because they gave him so much stage control. Making them ineffective with whatever means....wouldn't that nullify his control of the stage, if you're not pinned down by them? Or is my thinking too linear?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Did not know Peach's shield to body ratio helped her PS. Neat lol.

 

[Strong Badam]

yupyup, it's why human characters are better at it. sheik/marth/peach.

 

[ShroudedOne]

It's why Puff and DK, for example, have a harder time powershielding. And why it's rather easy for Sheik, Peach, Zelda. That's how I've always understood it, anyways.

Oh snap, the ninja.

 

[Bones0]

no argument, but making laser ineffective =/= preventing falco from gaining stage control with it. the laser is much more than a mobile stun box, strategically speaking. i think we should all come back to this and develop our ideas better. i have to run out too.

Actually, they are definitely the same thing in the case of PSing. Aside from Falco shooting high/low lasers and running under/jumping over the PSed laser, he is stopped dead in his tracks. My ideas concerning lasers and PSing are already thoroughly developed from playing, so just lmk when you feel ready to discuss them, I guess.

I feel like Peach's powershield game deserves an honorable mention (@ Bones0), considering her amazing shield-to-body ratio, the fact that her dash forward (which makes it even easier) allows her to "check" her opponent's positioning and take a good response, and since she can float OOS after a powershield, it puts her in a position vs Falco that is probably unmatched. I dunno exactly why I decided to type this, except I remember thinking that her PS game > Sheik's, and is probably on par with Marth's.

I was under the assumption that Falco's lasers were exceptional because they gave him so much stage control. Making them ineffective with whatever means....wouldn't that nullify his control of the stage, if you're not pinned down by them? Or is my thinking too linear?

Peach seems to have really good options for PSing physical attacks parry style (DoH has crouch PS dsmashed me more than a few times). Vs. lasers she is just too slow imo, and it seems kinda pointless to PS into a float when you could have just floated to begin with. Her float is what makes her so good vs. lasers, so I don't see many ways she can incorporate PSing beyond just using it as a good way to start floating. I could very well be underrating the potential usage of stuff like PS WD OoS DA though (oh Melee, y u need so many acronyms?).

 

[ShroudedOne]

PS > float kind of let's her set up her float for "free," if she's finding that the Falco is lasering her in a way that she can't get into the air to float. And of course you've got the typical PS > shield grab/jab (though no Peach does this, it's super good)/other close range options OOS that work vs laser > approaches. PS > dash attack sounds kind of boss, too. Situationally, of course.

I dunno, it doesn't seem to me that her lack of speed matters too much in terms of how strong powershielding is for her, but on par with Marth is probably giving her too much credit, since he's got the speed to make it better.

 

[Xyzz]

Iirc PS just allows you to use all A moves out of it, not stuff like dashing... so dash attack wouldn't work.

Also: I think regular shield > float is completely fine vs lasers, he can't shoot with that high of a frequency to really lock you down anyways (:

 

[Diakonos]

PS is incredible vs. Falco. It can help him feel scared to use lasers, which really helps Marth set the pace of the match more. PS from far away aren't that useful, but at midrange it can be really good because it leads to grabs/fairs. It's not really that hard. I would say that when I'm on my game I can powershield 70+% of lasers I can see coming. PS is especially nice when Falcos don't have platforms to run to.

Here's a match from a tournament I played in on Saturday, in which I use PS a fair bit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnbF8k6mIcM#t=03m55s
Would appreciate advice or constructive criticism, of course!

 

[clowsui]

okay so re: PS

look at diakonos' video, the DL game (which is right after the game he links).

when marth fails to PS, he becomes trapped in shield. being trapped in shield vs falco for even a little bit is fatal. more specifically, if the falco is doing a good job of lasering and mixes in fakes (ie laser sound but no laser comes out) w his low lasers, this becomes a huge strategic advantage for him because he's then given the ability to shield pressure and corner you. for PS to be at its "full potential" a marth would need to be able to PS fairly reactively and convert from said PS very fluidly, both of which seem difficult to do all the time for even someone who has 70% success rate on the best of days.

the advantage of PS is that it forces falco to re-evaluate zoning/pressure strategies that rely largely on lasers. but the disadvantage is in its inherent risk in failure (as described above) and also in its relative predictability (i.e. marth doesn't have effective answers to lasers in some common situations other than PS, like when the falco is right outside marth's soonest dash attack range, initiated from standing). like max said, laser's strategic brokenness is that the opponent can never ignore the ability of falco to generate stage control with it at any point in time. after all, if you come into a range where laser is unsafe, he can actively choose NOT to laser and have other strong options, OR he can run away and shoot laser at a safe range (at which point you might PS, but at this point he's far enough away where it wouldn't be too bad + he could always fake).

 

[FrootLoop]

laser's strategic brokenness is that the opponent can never ignore the ability of falco to generate stage control with it at any point in time.

this is the heart of it. It centralizes so much that even if PS-centric counterstrategies work out sometimes, falco can just fall back to really good other stuff and marth really can't ignore the threat of falco going right back into it. It's like you are constantly having to guess correctly just to interact and get to neutral, resulting in a skewed numbers game which is textbook advantage.

 

[Tarv]

I think the thing that bothers me the most about falco's lasers is that they ruin my dash dance. Why won't you just let me dance you mean old bird ?? And yeah I agree PSing is probably the best way to deal with Falco's lasers but they're hardly an ideal way to deal with them. I mean of course the other option is to just keeping hitting him and never stopping to give him a chance to laser... ever. But I'm not entirely sure that is a sensible strategy. Since I myself am pretty bad at PSing I try to get by on just straight-up shielding them, jump forward countering them (not the best idea), and just getting hit by them (not really a great idea either.) Be nice if there was a solution for the PSing impaired. All in all though I think it's just a major advantage that Falco has against the rest of the cast and I kind of feel like Marth's need to learn how to play around it instead of trying to deal with the problem head on. Force falco to abandon his laser-happy ways in the face of superior strategic positioning, timing and expert sword hitting.

 

[MT_]

Be nice if there was a solution for the PSing impaired.

Practice PSing. I wasn't any good at powershielding before but a lot of time spent on FD vs lvl 9 Falco changed that. Now I think I'm better than almost everyone (except Diakonos and Ice) at powershielding lasers. But it was something that I developed over a year or so playing against Falcos and practicing against lvl 9 Falcos.

Regarding the PS discussion, I think Falcos really need to utilize what Bones0 mentioned earlier. Shooting low lasers then jumping over the laser that was PS'd is VERY effective, especially if the Marth is feeling confident with his powershields and is prone to approach/WD OoS forward out of them. Running low laser -> SH nair/dair will destroy that and make Marth question whether or not his powershields are reliable (kind of like how powershields make Falco question whether lasers are reliable or not). That, and being able to react to when you DO get hit by a PS laser with jab or something like that; unless the spacing is perfect on Marth's part (which is hard because Falco is usually the one controlling the spacing here since Marth is stuck in shield) then a Marth that wavedashes forward after a PS will simply get interrupted by the jab.

My two cents; it's more specific than some of the discussion so far but I think these nuances are really important to be looked into.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Regarding the PS discussion, I think Falcos really need to utilize what Bones0 mentioned earlier. Shooting low lasers then jumping over the laser that was PS'd is VERY effective,

This is like Kirby spitting out Falco underneath battlefield, then telling Falcos having to remember to save jump to wall jump off the bottom of battlefield to safe themselves.

 

[MT_]

This is like Kirby spitting out Falco underneath battlefield, then telling Falcos having to remember to save jump to wall jump off the bottom of battlefield to safe themselves.

Are you saying that it's too farfetched/difficult to be viable? Because it really isn't. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7rsLL6ruc4#t=15m12s

I am fishing for the powershield here and Tirno knows that; Tirno then shoots a low laser and jumps over it into what could have been a free punish (I think he lasered on accident or maybe was expecting me to retreat). The laser that he did shoot however hit me out of my wavedash, and laser is one of Falco's slowest moves. Imagine if he had decided to dair of nair; I would have died right then despite getting the powershield.

 

[Diakonos]

Quite obviously, the answer is to powershield both lasers, or else the nair/dair that follows the initial laser.

edit:// In fact, why not just PS all his moves?

 

[MT_]

Quite obviously, the answer is to powershield both lasers, or else the nair/dair that follows the initial laser.

edit:// In fact, why not just PS all his moves?

Hahahaha, if only I could get out of shield and in neutral stand in time... It might be feasible with Peach. Powershield the first laser, DJ land -> powershield again. This way even if he does nair/dair you can PS->dsmash.

 

[Bones0]

Iirc PS just allows you to use all A moves out of it, not stuff like dashing... so dash attack wouldn't work.

Also: I think regular shield > float is completely fine vs lasers, he can't shoot with that high of a frequency to really lock you down anyways (:

You can use A attacks during your unshield animation after a PS, but that only applies to PSing physical attacks, not projectiles. When you PS physical attacks, you still have shield stun. When you PS projectiles, you don't have any shield stun, you don't slide backwards from the projectile hitting, and the projectile is reflected. If you reread my post you'll see I said to WD OoS after the PS before DAing. There's a pretty good chance it will hit if the Falco gets hit by the PSed laser.

okay so re: PS

look at diakonos' video, the DL game (which is right after the game he links).

when marth fails to PS, he becomes trapped in shield. being trapped in shield vs falco for even a little bit is fatal. more specifically, if the falco is doing a good job of lasering and mixes in fakes (ie laser sound but no laser comes out) w his low lasers, this becomes a huge strategic advantage for him because he's then given the ability to shield pressure and corner you. for PS to be at its "full potential" a marth would need to be able to PS fairly reactively and convert from said PS very fluidly, both of which seem difficult to do all the time for even someone who has 70% success rate on the best of days.

the advantage of PS is that it forces falco to re-evaluate zoning/pressure strategies that rely largely on lasers. but the disadvantage is in its inherent risk in failure (as described above) and also in its relative predictability (i.e. marth doesn't have effective answers to lasers in some common situations other than PS, like when the falco is right outside marth's soonest dash attack range, initiated from standing). like max said, laser's strategic brokenness is that the opponent can never ignore the ability of falco to generate stage control with it at any point in time. after all, if you come into a range where laser is unsafe, he can actively choose NOT to laser and have other strong options, OR he can run away and shoot laser at a safe range (at which point you might PS, but at this point he's far enough away where it wouldn't be too bad + he could always fake).

I disagree with your premise that Marth is trapped in shield when he doesn't PS. Lasers still have only a couple frames of shield stun, which means even if you miss the PS, you can still simply WD back OoS and completely annihilate any approach they commit to doing immediately following the laser. Laser -> SHFFL just doesn't work anymore if the opponent is good at dealing with lasers. Even if you PS late and get hit by the laser, you can still always get your shield up in time before Falco can attack you unless he landed the laser right next to you, in which case your mistake was letting Falco SHL that close to you. Fake lasers don't help Falco all that much. If I fake a SHL to get the Marth to shield, he should still be moving OoS before I can reach him. All I accomplished by not shooting a laser was guaranteeing I wouldn't get counterattacked by a PSed laser. Falco can only "generate stage control" if you:
1. Get hit by a laser, or
2. Fail to move OoS properly after a laser

Don't get me wrong, lasers are still amazing tools for forcing people to stop whatever they were doing, but I view them more as preemptive strikes to prevent characters from steamrolling slow-ass Falco, not as some offensive tool that opens up opportunities for approaches. Do I use lasers offensively? Sure, but I don't rely on them to hit the opponent because they don't actually combo into anything 99% of the time. It's almost always "okay, I got them to shield my laser, so now I know they will have to move backwards or predict my approach and attack." This is why PP's staple laser-laser-DD is so effective for him, and it's why he is able to maintain his safety so well. He has a common mixup of 1-2 lasers, then he has his amazing DD which masks when, if at all, his approach is coming. More of his first hits are from opponents doing something out of fear of an approach after lasering, not from him actually SHFFLing after lasers.

 

[Xyzz]

You can use A attacks during your unshield animation after a PS, but that only applies to PSing physical attacks, not projectiles. When you PS physical attacks, you still have shield stun. When you PS projectiles, you don't have any shield stun, you don't slide backwards from the projectile hitting, and the projectile is reflected. If you reread my post you'll see I said to WD OoS after the PS before DAing. There's a pretty good chance it will hit if the Falco gets hit by the PSed laser.

I see, thanks for the clarification.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Are you saying that it's too farfetched/difficult to be viable? Because it really isn't. For example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7rsLL6ruc4#t=15m12s

I'd figure a falco player will deal with PS lasers once it actually becomes a stronger presence. I don't think anyone is going to bother until they can go to a tournament and constantly keep getting wrecked by powershielded lasers. Your telling people to practice a counter strategy for a thing that still few people do consistently.

It's sort of like hitting a shield on a platform too. Marth could punish a lot of people for hitting his shield while he is on a platform, but no one is going to bother practicing safe shield poking options against a marth on a platform until they start seeing someone dropping from platforms in shield.

 

[ShroudedOne]

Iirc PS just allows you to use all A moves out of it, not stuff like dashing... so dash attack wouldn't work.

Also: I think regular shield > float is completely fine vs lasers, he can't shoot with that high of a frequency to really lock you down anyways (:

Well sometimes you don't want to just shield > float his lasers, cause the shield gives him an opening to advance on you (perhaps initiate pressure depending on the spacing) and you've suddenly lost that stage. And I've always felt like he can shoot that rapidly, but it's probably just me being bad.

And yeah, I mean PS > WD oos > Dash attack (as Bones said), I just abbreviated it cause it was too long. Anyways, I don't want this to become the Peach boards. >_>

 

[Bones0]

Well sometimes you don't want to just shield > float his lasers, cause the shield gives him an opening to advance on you (perhaps initiate pressure depending on the spacing) and you've suddenly lost that stage. And I've always felt like he can shoot that rapidly, but it's probably just me being bad.

And yeah, I mean PS > WD oos > Dash attack, I just abbreviated it cause it was too long. Anyways, I don't want this to become the Peach boards. >_>

Try buffering a jump as a laser hits your shield next time. Most people are so worried about jumping too early and getting hit or not jumping because they inputted it during the few frames of shield stun that they wait much longer than they have to to jump. If you're going to FH into a float, buffering a jump with the C-stick shouldn't make it too awkward to do once you get used to it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

okay so re: PS

look at diakonos' video, the DL game (which is right after the game he links).

when marth fails to PS, he becomes trapped in shield. being trapped in shield vs falco for even a little bit is fatal. more specifically, if the falco is doing a good job of lasering and mixes in fakes (ie laser sound but no laser comes out) w his low lasers, this becomes a huge strategic advantage for him because he's then given the ability to shield pressure and corner you. for PS to be at its "full potential" a marth would need to be able to PS fairly reactively and convert from said PS very fluidly, both of which seem difficult to do all the time for even someone who has 70% success rate on the best of days.

the advantage of PS is that it forces falco to re-evaluate zoning/pressure strategies that rely largely on lasers. but the disadvantage is in its inherent risk in failure (as described above) and also in its relative predictability (i.e. marth doesn't have effective answers to lasers in some common situations other than PS, like when the falco is right outside marth's soonest dash attack range, initiated from standing). like max said, laser's strategic brokenness is that the opponent can never ignore the ability of falco to generate stage control with it at any point in time. after all, if you come into a range where laser is unsafe, he can actively choose NOT to laser and have other strong options, OR he can run away and shoot laser at a safe range (at which point you might PS, but at this point he's far enough away where it wouldn't be too bad + he could always fake).

If Marth succeeds with his powershield, then Falco gets put in his shield or grabbed. Falco shielding when the opponent is close and especially when it's not on Falco's terms is very bad for him. If Marth can solidly mix his game between taking lasers and SDI'ing them/jumping and Fair'ing out of them/shielding them/platforming vs them/PS'ing them then he can get a great advantage because Falco has plenty of responses vs lasers he must worry about. Leffen has proven already that Marth can PS over 70% of lasers perfectly and I aim to do the same. Even if Marth doesn't attempt to convert on PS(possibly to avoid the mentioned counters) that still forces Falco to deal with his own laser or approach in a rather predictable manner. Basically, Falco cannot control well with his laser and is forced to rely on his worse mobility but better FH(which is not where he'd prefer to be vs Marth) in order to reset momentum/fight.

Marth can crouch in the situation you described and avoid/CC Nair forever or easily PS Dair/laser and counterattack. He could also walk forward and jab or Ftilt honestly but no one wants to hear about those options for some reason despite their good use. Moving back or using platforms could also work here. Not sure why it HAS to be PS. Falco does not necessarily get outright stage control with a laser either since Marth has several aforementioned counters against lasers in a variety of situations. Shoot even by the edge with Falco close I think Marth can use side B pretty well against most of Falco's options including laser.

Now I'm not saying that PS is the answer to Falco outright, but I wrote the above in such a way as to give Marths working on the Falco matchup a good way to think. I believe what I said but I would moderate my delivery if this discussion wasn't made to assert some point because the the dynamic that emerges from effective Marth PS and clever Falco mixup of laser hasn't really been observed and I cannot really imagine what it would look like. Perhaps a good theorycraft day will help me out with that.....

 

[Bones0]

Now I'm not saying that PS is the answer to Falco outright, but I wrote the above in such a way as to give Marths working on the Falco matchup a good way to think. I believe what I said but I would moderate my delivery if this discussion wasn't made to assert some point because the the dynamic that emerges from effective Marth PS and clever Falco mixup of laser hasn't really been observed and I cannot really imagine what it would look like. Perhaps a good theorycraft day will help me out with that.....

I feel capable of commenting on this dynamic because I frequently play someone who is capable of PSing. It's definitely a strange dynamic because at times he is really on and focused with his PSing, and other times he sticks with more traditional counters to lasers (simple shielding tactics, stuffing lasers with fair/dtilt, taking lasers and moving/attacking smart after, etc). When he is on, I find myself spending a huge amount of concentration on avoiding PSed lasers. My go to options are typically low lasers that can't be PSed (or are extremely hard to PS, but I think if you shoot them low enough Marth can't PS at all) or high lasers that I can run under. Lasers just low enough to jump over are okay, but honestly Marth should be moving OoS anyway. That means if they move backwards then I just did a poorly spaced aerial over my laser.

Faking lasers is usually what most people have as their go-to option when they realize their opponent likes to PS, but this honestly only works vs. PSers who rely on the laser to counterattack. I only find myself using this when I am close enough to land on top of the Marth's shield because SHLing on top of a Marth who is good at PSing is really risky. You usually can't shield the PSed laser in time, so they will just shield grab you. This is when I prefer to empty hop into a shine-aerial or shine-grab, whichever is most appropriate. Better players will shield for the laser when they see Falco SHing (I still maintain no one can truly react to the laser coming out at relevant distances) and simply WD or aerial OoS to deal with the Falco as he lands from his empty hop as if nothing weird happened. So basically, Falco faking lasers outside of Marth's grab range makes the situation turn out almost identical to when Marth only normal-shields the laser, but it's tilted a bit more in Marth's favor because he doesn't have any actual shield stun to deal with. Like when Marth shields a laser normally, the Falco still has to try to bait a bad action, or he must let Marth move back and take as much stage as he can. That's the gist of my interactions with good PSers, anyway.