Official Ask Anyone Frame Things Thread

[Torsade de pointe]

Can you shield-ASDI with the C-stick ? (I've actually been wondering this for a while)

 

[Bones0]

Can you shield-ASDI with the C-stick ? (I've actually been wondering this for a while)

Just Z-shield vs. a CPU and when they hit you press the C-stick. You should be able to see any ASDI, but it you are just going to buffer a roll so this is honestly fairly useless information.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

I was wondering if I could use it against fox down air : that would enable me to get out of the drill before fox touches the ground, and then immediately roll.

 

[Sebovich]

Is there a formula for shield stun? Or does all attacks result in the same stun?

 

[Kadano]

Is there a formula for shield stun? Or does all attacks result in the same stun?

www.ssbwiki.com/Shield_stun

 

[Bones0]

Is there a formula for shield stun? Or does all attacks result in the same stun?

Alternatively: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

 

[Sebovich]

Alternatively: http://smashboards.com/threads/frame-advantage-on-block.309694/

Thanks, that was an awesome link!

 

[Stride]

What are the methods of jab cancelling (so that after the first jab in a multi-hit jab combo has been completed, an action can be performed during the window for the input of the second jab other than that next jab) and how many frames do you lose performing each method?

Do all characters have the same timing for pivots (that is, are they standing on the same frame after inputting a turn during their initial dash)?

Is it quicker to grab behind you by pivot grabbing or by turning around in place and then grabbing?

 

[Kadano]

Has proper sky blast line research ever been done? @Magus420 @ Strong Badam

I thought that it was necessary to be either grounded or in hitstun to die from passing it, but apparently that’s not always true. During anti-gravity, pretty much every move can pass the sky blast line and make the character die. (So far I confirmed it for Fox’s double jump (also with follow-up aerials), air dodge, side-B, down-B and up-B.)

At first I thought that the calculated hitstun might still be active although you are actionable, but my test results don’t support this. Depending on what action you do, you need to do it within 3-8ish frames after DownDamage to still die.

Please help.

 

[standardtoaster]

in brawl you need at least 2.4 KB in order to die above the top blastzone. not sure if it's the exact same number as melee though

 

[Kadano]

in brawl you need at least 2.4 KB in order to die above the top blastzone. not sure if it's the exact same number as melee though

Oh wow, yeah that seems about right. What’s the formula for knockback deteoration over time? And is 2.4KB only for the KB itself or post-gravity? I suppose it’s KB only, but I want to make sure.

 

[Fliperotchy]

Question time, what is the timing window for Falcon grabbing a Fox/Falco Illusion?

Does Falcon have an invincible ledgehop grab? Invincible ledehop u-air stall?

Last one: How tight is the timing between Falcon u-throw>knee on Sheik at ~55-75%? (assuming the DI is kneeable). Aka how tight of a window do I have between the uthrow frames ending and then jumping? It seems like I jump late 50% of the time, and I feel the window is pretty tight.

Yes, I love Douglas J.

 

[tauKhan]

What’s the formula for knockback deteoration over time?

This is the vertical movement formula for pm after being hit, and I expect it to be same for melee:

So, I looked at the game memory, and it appears that this is indeed what happens. Or to be precise, this happens every frame:

(knockback stored into kbcomp here)
kbcomp = Math.max(kbcomp-0.051, 0);
fallcomp = Math.max(fallcomp-gravity, -terminal_velocity);
speed = kbcomp + fallcomp;
height += speed;

So the kb deteriorating is probably 0.051/frame.

 

[Kadano]

So the kb deteriorating is probably 0.051/frame.

Thanks, but that value seems way too low imho. Falco’s shine against Fox at 42% damage does 134.36 KB, with a KB deteoration of only 0.51 it would take almost 44 seconds until it zeros out.
I guess there are many things I’m missing on how this stuff works.

 

[tauKhan]

Thanks, but that value seems way too low imho. Falco’s shine against Fox at 42% damage does 134.36 KB, with a KB deteoration of only 0.51 it would take almost 44 seconds until it zeros out.
I guess there are many things I’m missing on how this stuff works.

Okay that seems ridiculous lol. Maybe the kbcomp is the velocity comp calculated from kb? That seems to make more sense: 0,03 * 134.36 would give 4,0308 kb comp (Okay it's not necessarily the vertical kbcomp) , which would deteriorate in 1,3 sec. This would make the kb deteriorating rate 1,7/frame

 

[Kadano]

Okay that seems ridiculous lol. Maybe the kbcomp is the velocity comp calculated from kb? That seems to make more sense: 0,03 * 134.36 would give 4,0308 kb comp (Okay it's not necessarily the vertical kbcomp) , which would deteriorate in 1,3 sec. This would make the kb deteriorating rate 1,7/frame

Those seem like good values, thanks! Don’t know where you pulled 0.03 from though, lol.

The scene I use for testing is as follows:
Fox (42% damage) on top platform of YS in knockdown. Falco uses shine on him (edited to do 6 dmg instead of 8 to stay below the DownDamage threshold; usually accomplished by move staling, which is absent in develop mode) that launches with 134,36 KB. Fox DIs up and towards for almost vertical knockback angle.
If Fox jumps out immediately (on DownDamage 13 ), he dies off the top. If he delays his jump by a single frame (Fall 0 ), he survives, but still passes the sky blast line.

Counting from the beginning of hitstun / DownDamage, these are 32 and 33 frames until the blast line is passed, respectively. So if I understand you correctly, the 134.36 would be reduced to 79.96 and 78.26, respectively. As both are well above the 2.4 KB threshold @ standardtoaster gave, I suspect that either:

1. KB is reduced by more than 1.7/frame while gravity is still active (during DownDamage ) [unlikely imho]
2. the death KB threshold is higher [also unlikely; I successfully died off the top with momentum that felt like 20 KB at most]
3. KB deteriorates even quicker.

I can’t explain it to myself in any other way than 3. By scaling the rate according to the measured results, I get a rate of approximately 3.999-4.123 KB per frame. As 4(.000) is among these, I’d like to think Mr. Sakurai chose a beautiful integer value and the answer is simply 4, but I’m not even remotely sure about my calculation making sense. I also don’t know a way to test this as gravity and terminal velocity gets in the way (at least I think so).

If you are wondering why this obscure matter is so important to me: In my last video, I mentioned that dying off the top requires either being grounded or being in hitstun. I was obviously wrong about hitstun being the deciding factor, but I don’t want to change it to “KB > 2.4” before I completely understand how KB deteoration works so that I can make sure it really is 2.4.

 

[tauKhan]

I understand why you are curious: I was about to ask you about it a month ago after I found out the smash games track kb speed independent of other velocity, and that I found then that you can die off the top if you jump out of DownDamage.

As for the 0,03: It's from http://smashboards.com/threads/tool...n-hitlag-shieldstun-calculation-v1-11.324878/ where it lists Velocity = 0,03 Kb. Also regarding this case, I think Standardtoaster meant kb velocity, since 79,96*0,03 = 2,3988 and 78,26 = 2,3478, so there might be some rounding done that would have you die with immediate jump and not with 2nd frame jump.

Edit: Actually I think it would make sense if the initial velocity isn't reduced on the first frame: this would make you lose kb on 31 frames, and on 32th frame the kb would be 81,66 and hence your kb velocity would be 2,4498 so you would die, but on the 33th frame it would be just below the 2,4 kb velocity threshold.

 

[Kadano]

It looks so ridiculous when you jump out and … die.

I made two animations for other readers who are interested (I’m sure you’ve already played with it as much as I have, haha):
http://gfycat.com/GentleSplendidIberianbarbel (normal visibility; normal speed)
http://gfycat.com/GroundedRelievedLacewing (develop visibility; 1/6 speed)

Edit: Ahh, now the numbers make sense. Thanks again!

Edit2: Just to make sure, I’ll edit Fox’s shine to have a KB angle of 90° and use it on PAL and NTSC Marths near the sky blast line. If everything is like you explained, PAL Marth should die while NTSC Marth survives, lol.

Edit3: Yup, it’s just like that. So 80 KB is the magical threshold for dying off the top as well.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Kadano Do you know the formulas for consecutive hit kb calculation aka how the momentum stacking precisely works?

And also what's the rule for landing out of hitstun happening? I know that falcos utilt -> dair seem to always cause land canceling of the hitstun, while shine dair most often doesn't cause landing. On the other hand, I've had a scenarion where I think bowser landed out of a non momentum cancelled shine - >dair. Then again, doing very fast shine dair so that the dair momentum cancels the shine seem to always cause landing, unless the dair causes tumble.

 

[Phan7om]

How many frames does intangibility from the ledge last?

 

[tauKhan]

37 with most chars after grabbing the edge, counting ledgegrab as frame 1, 33 frames with link. You can do ledge actions on frame 9 the earliest (5 with link).

 

[Kadano]

@ Kadano Do you know the formulas for consecutive hit kb calculation aka how the momentum stacking precisely works?

And also what's the rule for landing out of hitstun happening? I know that falcos utilt -> dair seem to always cause land canceling of the hitstun, while shine dair most often doesn't cause landing. On the other hand, I've had a scenarion where I think bowser landed out of a non momentum cancelled shine - >dair. Then again, doing very fast shine dair so that the dair momentum cancels the shine seem to always cause landing, unless the dair causes tumble.

Sorry, no, I don’t. I’m not even sure what “land canceling” is – is it when knockback stacking effectively reduces knockback so that you stay below the knockdown threshold which you would have been above if only the second hit had connected?

37 with most chars after grabbing the edge, counting ledgegrab as frame 1, 33 frames with link. You can do ledge actions on frame 9 the earliest (5 with link).

While this is in almost all cases an unnecessary distinction, I’m pretty sure that ledgegrab (CliffCatch ) has individual intangibility on every animation frame and 30 frames of intangibility are granted on its completion.
I don’t remember how exactly I did it, but during the creation of this video, I grabbed a ledge in a way that I was carried off of it at some frame of CliffCatch . Intangibility ended immediately. Hence my report at 2:00.

In any case, I’m kind of happy about this discovery because it feels somewhat better to me to explain it this way:
Grabbing the ledge is intangible and takes 7 frames for every character except Link (3 frames). After this animation is completed, you will stay intangible for another 30 frames, regardless of what action you do during this period.

 

[tauKhan]

Oh sorry the second question was independent, I meant what happens with crouch cancelling also: You asdi to ground to land when you get sent into air and "land cancel" (A term I use myself and forget that others don't lol) the hitstun. So sometimes you can land while in hitstun, and sometimes you go into grounded hitstun after touching the ground. Grounded hitstun happens with falco's shine -> dair, while utilt -> dair causes landing to occur.

 

[Strong Badam]

Has proper sky blast line research ever been done? @Magus420 @ Strong Badam

I thought that it was necessary to be either grounded or in hitstun to die from passing it, but apparently that’s not always true. During anti-gravity, pretty much every move can pass the sky blast line and make the character die. (So far I confirmed it for Fox’s double jump (also with follow-up aerials), air dodge, side-B, down-B and up-B.)

At first I thought that the calculated hitstun might still be active although you are actionable, but my test results don’t support this. Depending on what action you do, you need to do it within 3-8ish frames after DownDamage to still die.

Please help.

As ST said, you need 2.4 KB in order to "die" from the blastzone. We observe equal KO percents in PM and Melee with all other variables equal, so there's no reason to believe this isn't true for Melee as well.
The KB "decay" per frame is also 0.051 as tuaKhan stated.

For KB "stacking", if you are hit within 10 frames of being hit the first time the second hit will always override the first hit's KB. For slower consecutive hits, the moves are added as vectors with their relevant post-DI calculated trajectory. @Magus420 would know the specifics with how tumble and stuff is calculated in this.

 

[Fliperotchy]

Oh my god....I'm invisible. I'm going to be RICH.

 

[tauKhan]

For slower consecutive hits, the moves are added as vectors with their relevant post-DI calculated trajectory. @Magus420 would know the specifics with how tumble and stuff is calculated in this.

I don't think the vectors are straight up added. I think it seems more like this when the second hit connects:
x1 is the remaining horizontal kb component of the first hit, y1 remaining vertical component, x2 post di horizontal component of the second hit, y2 post di vertical component.

Then x = x1 + x2 if they are opposite directions, x=max{x1, x2} if they are in the same direction. y is calculated likewise.

The victims kb vector is then x + y

Is this correct?

 

[Fliperotchy]

Sorry, no, I don’t. I’m not even sure what “land canceling” is – is it when knockback stacking effectively reduces knockback so that you stay below the knockdown threshold which you would have been above if only the second hit had connected?


While this is in almost all cases an unnecessary distinction, I’m pretty sure that ledgegrab (CliffCatch ) has individual intangibility on every animation frame and 30 frames of intangibility are granted on its completion.
I don’t remember how exactly I did it, but during the creation of this video, I grabbed a ledge in a way that I was carried off of it at some frame of CliffCatch . Intangibility ended immediately. Hence my report at 2:00.

In any case, I’m kind of happy about this discovery because it feels somewhat better to me to explain it this way:
Grabbing the ledge is intangible and takes 7 frames for every character except Link (3 frames). After this animation is completed, you will stay intangible for another 30 frames, regardless of what action you do during this period.

I believe a good example of this is grabbing the edge on Yoshi's Story right as Randall slides underneath you. It'll take you off the ledge during the ledge grab frames and I believe your intangiblity will end immediately and then start over when it snaps you back onto the edge when he disappears.

 

[lanabo]

Does the 40 frame duration of the tech roll only during the rolling period, or are there frames at the end of the tech roll where the character is at the 'end' of the tech roll and simply standing?

If that didn't make sense, what I'm trying to ask is do tech rolls have a period of vulnerable 'lag' like tech in place does?

If there are vulnerable frames at the end of the tech roll, is there any frame data on it? I couldn't find it on Magus's thread.

 

[kyaputenfarukon07]

Yes tech rolls do have vulnerable frames

total frames of the entire animation - invincible frames = vulnerable frames

http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/#post-5896012

 

[lanabo]

Is there any info on the hurtboxes during the rolling/moving part of the tech roll?

Also, I wanted to know the frames of vulnerability after the character has finished the 'rolling' part of the tech roll. For example, Falcon's tech roll is 40 frames of invincibility with frames 21-40 vulnerable. How many of these vulnerable frames does Falcon (or any other character) have after rolling the full distance of the tech roll and standing up?

 

[Strong Badam]

That's variable based on their specific animation.

 

[lanabo]

Thanks Strong Bad.

 

[Torsade de pointe]

You get invincibility when you do a regular get-up after you've been knocked to the ground, but are you invincible during the whole animation, or does it wear off beforehand, leaving you vulnerable.

In other words, is regular get-up --> shine nonpunishable with spacies or can you hit/grab them before the shine comes out ?

 

[Monkley6]

You get invincibility when you do a regular get-up after you've been knocked to the ground, but are you invincible during the whole animation, or does it wear off beforehand, leaving you vulnerable.

In other words, is regular get-up --> shine nonpunishable with spacies or can you hit/grab them before the shine comes out ?

Yes, there vulnerability during that. You can can check the fox/falco frame data thread to check for things like this btw, but I grabbed the data you were looking for. I didn't see it listed in Fox's frame data, but I assume it's basically the same.
Here's Falco's:

Spoiler

Tech-Neutral
Total: 26
Invincible: 1-20
Getup-Neutral (Back)
Total: 30
Invincible: 1-23

Getup-Neutral (Stomach)
Total: 30
Invincible: 1-23​

 

[tauKhan]

Generally there's 7 frames of vulnerability at the end of get-up, though there are exceptions. Here is a complete frame data of techs and get-ups: http://smashboards.com/threads/detailed-throws-techs-and-getups-frame-data.206469/#post-5896012

 

[Torsade de pointe]

Thanks a lot.

I thought the character's frame data topic only listed frame data on attacks, but I was wrong ^^ I'll make sure to check them out more thoroughly in the future.

 

[Bones0]

Thanks a lot.

I thought the character's frame data topic only listed frame data on attacks, but I was wrong ^^ I'll make sure to check them out more thoroughly in the future.

You weren't wrong. Pretty sure I am the only one who bothered to add the getup frame data from Magus's post into the character specific hitbox thread.

 

[Deleted member 212841]

gcyftftdtfyxycyvj

 

[lanabo]

What is the maximum possible frames of intangibility that Fox can have on the stage if he performs a perfect wavedash from the ledge at the timing that maximizes his number of intangibility frames?

 

[Kadano]

What is the maximum possible frames of intangibility that Fox can have on the stage if he performs a perfect wavedash from the ledge at the timing that maximizes his number of intangibility frames?

http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-20#post-16761069