Objectification of Women

[Xandercosm]

I've looked and can't find a thread about this specific topic. I find it very important, so I decided to make my own...

Now, I'm not a female (as you can probably tell), but women's rights and equality are extremely important to me. I find it disgusting that women are payed less than men for doing the same jobs just as proficiently, I believe that women should be as independent as they so choose, and I think that men are obviously not the only people who should make decisions and who should have a presence politically. I also, am really disgusted by how women are represented by the media. As sex objects, existing for the sole purpose of attracting male consumers.

I, honestly think it's immature and it isn't right. Do we really want little girls growing thinking that they need breast implants? Is that the type of environment that we want in our society? Also, men who fall into the trap of that type of appeal in media don't understand and/or care about the actual reason those things are attractive. We, like every other animal, evolved to want and need sex. Otherwise our species wouldn't be able to survive. It's one of the most basic biological needs. But, unfortunately, companies in the business of creating entertainment for men have realized how to take advantage of that need.

It's sad because I doubt that this phenomena will ever fade away. I think some of the ways to help mitigate it, though, are to educate people more on sex and its roll in evolution. As a male myself, I can definitely say that when you come to understand its actual use, you can learn how to stop yourself from constantly taking the bait in the media.

If we could all make an effort to work to this goal, I think the world would be a better place for everyone. It's just one of many goals we need to work toward, but its important, nonetheless.

I hope everyone will voice their opinion on this matter. But if you're just here to say "Who cares! All women are good for is their looks!" then I don't think this is the thread for you.

 

[kiteinthesky]

To be fair, some parts of the media including some game dev companies are trying their best to move past that sort of thing. It'll take a lot of time to rectify but it's slowly but surely happening. The ones who hold onto those archaic attitudes are dinosaurs at this point.

 

[Xandercosm]

To be fair, some parts of the media including some game dev companies are trying their best to move past that sort of thing. It'll take a lot of time to rectify but it's slowly but surely happening. The ones who hold onto those archaic attitudes are dinosaurs at this point.

I guess, but there are more people who believe those things than you would think.

 

[the.tok]

I 100% agree with what you said but then, little remains to be discussed ^^

The larger topic is the sexism in general, I think there are actually a lot of people that are still having sexist behaviour (including women), though the way it is expressed is changing lately.

For example, noone would argue that it is fair that women earn less than men, nor that women are inferior to men. It is no longer socially acceptable in most developped countries. But the whole "men are from mars, women from venus" bull**** is certainly getting very common lately. And the display of women as eye-candies is also getting worse and worse IMO

 

[Xandercosm]

I 100% agree with what you said but then, little remains to be discussed ^^

The larger topic is the sexism in general, I think there are actually a lot of people that are still having sexist behaviour (including women), though the way it is expressed is changing lately.

For example, noone would argue that it is fair that women earn less than men, nor that women are inferior to men. It is no longer socially acceptable in most developped countries. But the whole "men are from mars, women from venus" bull**** is certainly getting very common lately. And the display of women as eye-candies is also getting worse and worse IMO

I agree that it's dying out a bit but I still see examples of male supremacism all the time. Especially in southern America where people have some pretty backward views...

 

[FlusteredBat]

Women are not "paid less", they earn less on average because the female side of reproduction does not mesh well with the business world. Women who forgo kids for the sake of furthering their professional life earn just as much as male counterparts. Salaries simply represent a proportional compensation for the value you directly provide to customers, they are not arbitrary numbers dictated by sexist employers.

It's also common for women to pursue spiritually fulfilling jobs with lower salaries because it does not hinder their courtship prospects. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Men are drawn toward youth and fertility, although they did not impose the fashion industry, unrealistic beauty standards or cosmetic enhancements; such things are driven by female competition. Women warp the mainstream notion of beauty through their exaggerated attempts to snag the most alpha of alphas. Most men are frankly quite tolerant of imperfections.

As much as feminists insist that women are helpless victims of some enigmatic patriarchal force, the future is ultimately determined by who is allowed to reproduce. Women hold the power of rejection over men, they are literally the gatekeepers of civilization. Most human progress has resulted from the hard-wired male yearning to please women (Isn't it funny how easily feminism took off compared to something like abolitionism?).

Note: When feminists say "equality", you have to interpret it in the communist sense -- crush all the lucky b*tches down so that I can be the one who stands out for once!

 

[Xandercosm]

Women are not "paid less", they earn less on average because the female side of reproduction does not mesh well with the business world. Women who forgo kids for the sake of furthering their professional life earn just as much as male counterparts. Salaries simply represent a proportional compensation for the value you directly provide to customers, they are not arbitrary numbers dictated by sexist employers.

It's also common for women to pursue spiritually fulfilling jobs with lower salaries because it does not hinder their courtship prospects. Sounds like a good deal to me.

Men are drawn toward youth and fertility, although they did not impose the fashion industry, unrealistic beauty standards or cosmetic enhancements; such things are driven by female competition. Women warp the mainstream notion of beauty through their exaggerated attempts to snag the most alpha of alphas. Most men are frankly quite tolerant of imperfections.

As much as feminists insist that women are helpless victims of some enigmatic patriarchal force, the future is ultimately determined by who is allowed to reproduce. Women hold the power of rejection over men, they are literally the gatekeepers of civilization. Most human progress has resulted from the hard-wired male yearning to please women (Isn't it funny how easily feminism took off compared to something like abolitionism?).

Note: When feminists say "equality", you have to interpret it in the communist sense -- crush all the lucky b*tches down so that I can be the one who stands out for once!

LOL, dude. That's a lot to cram into one post. I see where you're coming from but I think there are some things you're not taking into account. But, just so you know, I think there are a lot of feminists who are pretty crazy. You can be crazy about any cause. And, obviously, if a woman can't physically perform a certain job as well as a man, they shouldn't get the same salary. But I think treatment of women is pretty serious. But if they can do a job just as proficiently as a male, they should get the same salary. Simple as that.

Also, YES I am well aware of the fact that there are many women who are completely working against "equality" (however you wish to define that term). As I'm sure you know, male supremacy is dictated by many religions. And there are many women who play right into that mindset. The whole goal is actually less to get men to treat women better, but to get everyone to stop indoctrinating their little girls to think that it's a good idea to be completely dominated by their male counterpart. We have to work against those religious doctrines more than the people, honestly. Plus, I would like to separate REAL equality and communism. Please.

One more thing, though, there are no "lucky b*tches". There are just b*tches that know how to use photoshop and some cheap makeup so let's be clear about that.

 

[oZzIIgk]

The larger topic is the sexism in general, I think there are actually a lot of people that are still having sexist behaviour (including women), though the way it is expressed is changing lately.

Sexism is a weird topic. I've noticed that a lot of people (women and men alike) only refuse to be sexist until it's beneficial to be sexist again. Like, you're supposed to view women as independent of men until the word formal is used. Then, all bets are off. Men are to hold doors for women and shower them in expensive gifts. All of the work of feminism is undone. if you dont agree that this is sexist just ask me to explain it further because this is sort of lacking
While I can't think of a similar example for men, I'm sure something similar occurs.

Of course, people refuse to be a lot of things until it's profitable or good to be that thing again.

 

[FlusteredBat]

LOL, dude. That's a lot to cram into one post. I see where you're coming from but I think there are some things you're not taking into account. But, just so you know, I think there are a lot of feminists who are pretty crazy. You can be crazy about any cause. And, obviously, if a woman can't physically perform a certain job as well as a man, they shouldn't get the same salary. But I think treatment of women is pretty serious. But if they can do a job just as proficiently as a male, they should get the same salary. Simple as that.

Women do not earn less on average due to being physically weaker than men, it's a matter of choice (a choice which men envy). Many would rather stay home raising kids than work increasingly arduous and stressful hours rising up some thankless corporate ladder. Shouldering the lucrative burden of success vs. failure actually sucks.

Also, YES I am well aware of the fact that there are many women who are completely working against "equality" (however you wish to define that term). As I'm sure you know, male supremacy is dictated by many religions. And there are many women who play right into that mindset. The whole goal is actually less to get men to treat women better, but to get everyone to stop indoctrinating their little girls to think that it's a good idea to be completely dominated by their male counterpart. We have to work against those religious doctrines more than the people, honestly. Plus, I would like to separate REAL equality and communism. Please.

Many religions like Christianity?

1 Corinthians 7:4-5

"A wife does not have the right over her own body, but her husband does. In the same way, a husband does not have the right over his own body, but his wife does."

Feminists love to omit that second part.

Religions are usually quite traditional in terms of gender roles, but that does not necessarily entail the supremacy of one gender over the other. Regardless, you'll be able to find something to justify any perspective in holy books, that's what they're designed to do. People often confuse the male desire to shelter women with oppression, even with disposable men throwing themselves into battle to die by the millions for the sake of their collective goddess.

Yes, feminists stand atop the bones of those they call evil oppressive tyrants -- men who sacrificed themselves because they so adored women, desperate for their approval.

What is "REAL" equality? I hope you don't mean equality of outcome. Equality of opportunity? It's an economic and biological reality that not all people are born equal, some are healthier, prettier, taller, stronger, faster, smarter and/or possess a greater inheritance. We don't all land at the same starting point, but nobody is stopping anyone else from following their realistic dream in a free society. As much as it is tempting to resent inequality, it's kinda the reason humanity even developed this far in the first place.

One more thing, though, there are no "lucky b*tches". There are just b*tches that know how to use photoshop and some cheap makeup so let's be clear about that.

Are you saying women are equally ugly and need Photoshop to look attractive?

I disagree.

 

[Iceweasel]

What is "REAL" equality? I hope you don't mean equality of outcome. Equality of opportunity? It's an economic and biological reality that not all people are born equal, some are healthier, prettier, taller, stronger, faster, smarter and/or possess a greater inheritance. We don't all land at the same starting point, but nobody is stopping anyone else from following their realistic dream in a free society. As much as it is tempting to resent inequality, it's kinda the reason humanity even developed this far in the first place.

o hai emperor

 

[FrankTheStud]

Let's not confuse equality with equity. If I may:

 

[Xandercosm]

Are you saying women are equally ugly and need Photoshop to look attractive?

I disagree.[/quote]

Heheh. That was mostly a joke. Thought you'd find that one funny!

Let's not confuse equality with equity. If I may:

I feel like that explanation of equality is a little misconstrued. Maybe I've never understood the word "equality" but I've always interpreted it as similar to equity but a applying more to society. Here is the definition (not that the "definition" is always right):

the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.
"an organization aiming to promote racial equality"
synonyms: fairness, equal rights, equal opportunities, equity, egalitarianism

 

[FlusteredBat]

o hai emperor

Antagonists are allowed to speak some degree of truth in media because whatever they say can easily be dismissed, they're evil after all. You don't need an actual counter-argument, just paint the opposition as megalomaniacal totalitarians.

 

[Iceweasel]

Says the guy who sounds like a megalomaniacal totalitarian

 

[FlusteredBat]

Says the guy who sounds like a megalomaniacal totalitarian

I don't need to reiterate.

 

[FrankTheStud]

Are you saying women are equally ugly and need Photoshop to look attractive?

I disagree.

Heheh. That was mostly a joke. Thought you'd find that one funny!



I feel like that explanation of equality is a little misconstrued. Maybe I've never understood the word "equality" but I've always interpreted it as similar to equity but a applying more to society. Here is the definition (not that the "definition" is always right):

the state of being equal, especially in status, rights, and opportunities.
"an organization aiming to promote racial equality"
synonyms: fairness, equal rights, equal opportunities, equity, egalitarianism[/quote]

It's not that you misunderstood, it's just that if we were all equal, we'd all be the same, similar to a Communism outlook. Equity is more emphasized on fairness and equal opportunity.

 

[Sucumbio]

Sexism is a weird topic. I've noticed that a lot of people (women and men alike) only refuse to be sexist until it's beneficial to be sexist again. Like, you're supposed to view women as independent of men until the word formal is used. Then, all bets are off. Men are to hold doors for women and shower them in expensive gifts. All of the work of feminism is undone. if you dont agree that this is sexist just ask me to explain it further because this is sort of lacking
While I can't think of a similar example for men, I'm sure something similar occurs.

Of course, people refuse to be a lot of things until it's profitable or good to be that thing again.

You touch on an excellent point. I find that platitudes in general not just sexism, end up changing with inconvenience.

 

[Xandercosm]

It's not that you misunderstood, it's just that if we were all equal, we'd all be the same, similar to a Communism outlook. Equity is more emphasized on fairness and equal opportunity.

I thought it was interesting how equity was one of the synonyms, though.

 

[FlusteredBat]

There is no equality or equity because both concepts require an initiation of force -- a contradiction* -- it's counter-productive. Nay, we should all be equally subject to ethics, not self-righteous whim. The axiomatic root of morality is that we own our bodies and the effects of our actions (it's not subjective).

Assuming nobody else is directly harmed or stolen from, there are no right or wrong decisions in life, though we must accept responsibility over the consequences. Not happy with the consequences? It isn't my fault, so don't blame me. I refuse to tear agency away from women, that would be sexist.

*How is it equal or fair that one group of humans may legitimately control the lives of others not afforded the same privilege?

 

[Xandercosm]

There is no equality or equity because both concepts require an initiation of force -- a contradiction* -- it's counter-productive. Nay, we should all be equally subject to ethics, not self-righteous whim. The axiomatic root of morality is that we own our bodies and the effects of our actions (it's not subjective).

Assuming nobody else is directly harmed or stolen from, there are no right or wrong decisions in life, though we must accept responsibility over the consequences. Not happy with the consequences? It isn't my fault, so don't blame me. I refuse to tear agency away from women, that would be sexist.

*How is it equal or fair that one group of humans may legitimately control the lives of others not afforded the same privilege?

But the question is: How far does one's agency go before it affects others? Negatively or otherwise...

 

[FlusteredBat]

But the question is: How far does one's agency go before it affects others? Negatively or otherwise...

That's too abstract. I don't know what you mean without context.

 

[Xandercosm]

That's too abstract. I don't know what you mean without context.

I mean the threshold. You have to draw a line somewhere between personal choices and choices that hurt others and/or society.

 

[FlusteredBat]

I mean the threshold. You have to draw a line somewhere between personal choices and choices that hurt others and/or society.

I'm still not sure what you're referring to.

We're responsible for our choices regardless of how they impact others.

 

[AfungusAmongus]

I find it disgusting that women are payed less than men for doing the same jobs just as proficiently

....they're not. All of the feminist wage gap arguments fail to consider one or more factor(s) like benefits, overtime, experience, and industry/field. Women under age 35 earn more than men under 35. This shows that if anything, men are paid less for doing the same jobs just as proficiently, since women over age 35 are less reliable and less proficient due to maternity leave (a year per kid of under-employment results in less experience). I believe the best solution is offering paternity leave in order to allow men some family time, with the side benefit that women will earn more money.

A related solution is to fight the commodification of men. Just as women are too often valued for their bodies, men are too often valued for their money. Men are often expected to pay for dates, and couples where the woman earns more are less happy and 50% more likely to divorce. If men felt that they could afford to live balanced lives with less focus on income, then men would live happier lives and women would earn more relative to men.

But I digress. Objectification often comes in the form of beauty products, fashion, and working out. It makes you more pleasant to look at and be around, and gives you social power over your less attractive peers. Sculpting a hot bod encourages objectification, but we have appalling levels of obesity in the USA and we need to encourage everyone to maintain a healthy weight. Objectification is not just something done to people; it's also something they bring on themselves for rational reasons. I agree that our society is too focused on women's looks, but at the same time, it serves useful purposes.

 

[Whia]

Can I just say I think objectification the way it's currently defined is a terrible, borderline useless word. It covers too broad a range of interactions and behaviours to be of any real significance. None of the above criteria are inherently negative or damaging treatments (except #5) - an opinion shared by the author of that definition, for what it's worth - and could apply to a number of harmless, innocuous situations, i.e. the typical employer/employee relationship. Context matters, circumstance matters, scope matters, etc etc and without specifics, this discussion is pointless in my super humble opinion.

 

[FlusteredBat]

Can I just say I think objectification the way it's currently defined is a terrible, borderline useless word. It covers too broad a range of interactions and behaviours to be of any real significance. None of the above criteria are inherently negative or damaging treatments (except #5) - an opinion shared by the author of that definition, for what it's worth - and could apply to a number of harmless, innocuous situations, i.e. the typical employer/employee relationship. Context matters, circumstance matters, scope matters, etc etc and without specifics, this discussion is pointless in my super humble opinion.

Vague sentimentality takes infinite priority over clear definitions. That's left-wing politics in a nutshell. How else are you supposed to turn people against one another? The standard is that there are no standards.

Horrifying.

 

[Chinaux]

I see nothing wrong with it because men are objectified too.
That's life, bud. People want to do these things to you, so put on your big boy pants and get over it.

 

[FlusteredBat]

How do you think the public would react if I started decrying unrealistic crotch-bulges in media? The matriarchy is practically forcing me to get an implant to match their ludicrous standards. Woe is me, I'm such a poor darling.

Why isn't Feminism a laughing stock again? Oh yeah, because it's women complaining, not men.

 

[Chinaux]

Why isn't Feminism a laughing stock again? Oh yeah, because it's women complaining, not men.

it already is

 

[Plunder]

I've looked and can't find a thread about this specific topic. I find it very important, so I decided to make my own...

Now, I'm not a female (as you can probably tell), but women's rights and equality are extremely important to me. I find it disgusting that women are payed less than men for doing the same jobs just as proficiently, I believe that women should be as independent as they so choose, and I think that men are obviously not the only people who should make decisions and who should have a presence politically. I also, am really disgusted by how women are represented by the media. As sex objects, existing for the sole purpose of attracting male consumers.

I actually have an issue with this line right here (I understand where you're coming from though)

My first job was at a retail store

All the guys had to go out in the sweltering heat and get the carts and they had to lift the REALLY heavy merchendise for carry outs and ins (many would get bruised or hurt doing so). Both of these contributed to greater stress and workload for men only.

None of the female workers were expected to do this even though it was the same exact positions and pay (merchandiser, stock room, and cashiers)

The same went for doofs who were partially handicap, older, or had some medical disability.

Sorry but is that crap fair? Get paid the same to do less and have an easier workload based on handicap, disability, age, or sex. Nope that is nonsense.

There is such thing as going too far and catering too much to the minority, enfeebled, or the supposedly oppressed in the past.

You do less work, you get paid less.

 

[Chinaux]

Just letting you know, women do not get paid less than men for the same job. That is a bull**** statistic.

 

[Iceweasel]

The claim that "women get paid less than men for the same work" is untrue. If one were to assume good faith, it results from a misunderstanding of statistics. If one were to assume bad faith, it's a deliberate attempt to mislead others into believing that there's some vast global conspiracy against half the human population.

The almost-nugget of truth in the claim that women get paid less than men is that the average woman, working full-time, makes about 77% of the salary of the average male full-time worker. If all jobs had a perfect gender distribution, there would be something to that assertion. However, they don't. Women prefer to go into jobs that are grounded in social interactions (teaching, social work, nursing, human resources), while men prefer jobs that are grounded in universal facts and truths (STEM). Science and engineering jobs pay considerably better than feels-based jobs, for a variety of reasons, including harsher deadlines, more stress, and a higher cost of failure. Basically, they're harder to do and they're harder on the worker than other jobs. Not to mention that solutions to STEM problems are more universal than solutions to problem children. Figuring out how to stop a bridge from collapsing in the wind is more or less the same problem in America as it is in Russia. If some enterprising engineer found a new way to make a bridge stand up to stronger winds, or hold up just as well for less cost, it's a solution that benefits the world, instead of a few people in one town. Whenever scientists discover how to manipulate gravitons, it's going to revolutionize human society. If you thought computers changed us fast, wait until we can determine how much gravity something has. Anyone can teach, but only a scientist can make the fundamental forces roll over and play dead.

Of course, to some people, that just proves even further that there's a global conspiracy against women, since they're "kept out of all the high-paying jobs". Well, the tech industry is bending over backwards to get women involved, and they're still just not interested. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

 

[Plunder]

There was of course a period of time, and it's still on-going where women actually were "paid less". But it wasn't for the same positions or the same jobs. It was done indirectly through the intentional and biased promoting and demoting based on sex.

It was at it's peak in the 50s-70s, only because women finally proclaimed they didn't just be housewives or be stay at home women with secretary / clerk jobs but also wanted to do the same jobs that traditionally men did (mostly concerning office and corporate level jobs)

Nothing at all wrong with that and I'm sure most can agree that women are just as capable of certain high level corporate positions and STEM stuff like Ice was describing since none of that is dependent on physical differences but the near identical intellect of both sexes (but there are obvious sex differences in how many are attracted to these lines of work).

Now we have hit a proverbial wall where women are having children (or wanting to) and settling down while also trying to be full time business women. Now there is a rift between both the man and woman of the house having full time (even overtime) high level careers. Who's going to give up their career? Are both just going to spend more time on their career and let daycare raise their children? Women have the biological urge to stay home and care for their children as was tradition for 1000s of years, and men are now sometimes in the awkward position of being a "stay at home dad" with a small job or no job.

Nothing is wrong with any of those scenarios however unnatural or out of the ordinary they maybe. But there is some recent awkwardness with how the drive for career equality has wedged itself into what used to be considered healthy normal family life and upbringing.

Unfortunately a lot of it has to do with how attractive the female is also....now that sounds sexist at first, but it's absolutely true and always has been (true for men also). The stereotype of the hot or cute woman that is able to attract any handsome well off man, get married, and start family. How often do you see attractive hardcore feminist? Are they feminist only because they have been neglected or not shown attention from men their whole life (the same attention and special treatment that they speak out against and despise other women getting just for having "good looks"). I find that most of it is dependent on superficial things now, since almost all civil problems have been resolved. Now it's just attractive women with no complaints about how both sexes treat them and unattractive women who are angry and spiteful at how society treats them. Sorry but until the end of time I'm sure humans will always have a bias towards "looks", that applies to both men and women (and actually women are the hardest on their own sex * go look at women's magazines, guess who is in charge of those magazines? Women * )

 

[Sucumbio]

I can't wait to be a house husband. **** working for a living, my wife can pay the bills with her law degree imma watch soaps and iron sheets.

 

[Judge Dredd Is Law]

..women's rights and equality are extremely important to me..

Please specify what rights women don't have, and which country you are referring to that have/don't have these laws, so that readers have a better understanding on the situation you are describing above. Please provide readers with facts and source data to have readers better understand and discuss concerns about local law.

Ever thought men could be objectified?

Ever heard or talked to a male stripper?

I recommend getting off Smashboards.com and doing something to make these "laws" more equal, if there are any that are needed to be revised.

 

[Chainz]

Ever heard or talked to a male stripper?

https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1w5aic/iama_22_year_old_male_stripper_amaa/

 

[AfungusAmongus]

I can't wait to be a house husband. **** working for a living, my wife can pay the bills with her law degree imma watch soaps and iron sheets.

People iron their sheets? Are you being ironic?

 

[Plunder]

How do people still not know what the word ironic means?

 

[Sucumbio]

If I'm gonna do it may as well do it right. Gotta get an apron and some house slippers too.

 

[SuperCoolSideAccount]

Don't mean to re-open a dead thread, but this video sums up why I hate the term feminism being seen as a fight for equality.