Data Now, Let's try it Together: Wii Fit Trainer's Matchup Thread (Trying a New System & Owner Soon)

[ぱみゅ]

@ ⑨ball

EDIT: I tagged just fine. But I'm cheating since I added the japanese typing to my keyboard.


I guess you can just copy+paste the name.

 

[Cress!]

Well I made a FG Pit rage-quit.

I think I'm getting better against him.

 

[SteadyDisciple]

I'd be curious to see if anyone's got a good feel for the matchup with Mewtwo yet. So far it seems like a rough match from what I can tell, though I'm not giving up hope just yet. I know this is a very new MU to cover, but any advice would help.

 

[⑨ball]

Mewtwo is a psychic type so use dark type moves like taunt, faint attack, fling and assurance. Fighting type moves aren't very effective, but he trades off high sp.atk for low hp meaning if you can hit hard enough fast enough the match is yours. Make sure to equip a choice scarf to take advantage of this or leftovers if you think you can tank shadowball.

I doubt anyone has anything concrete yet, but that's fine because neither do Mewtwo players. Three things I can tell you right off the bat is that Mewtwo did not get into the insane reflect/absorb club so zoning's fine and charging in his face can bait out attempts which you can punish. He's a teleport recover type so he's extremely vulnerable to putting hitboxes on the ledge with sideb and upb. He's also very light and floaty which makes for an easy target when going for traps or punishing with reverse ftilt.

 

[mat7772]

Also, something neat I noticed with mewtwo, since he has an incredibly floaty 2nd jump, it can become really easy to spike him using the back of your head on header. Works RIDICULOUSLY well if you noticed someone likes to airdodge a lot, but beware of his uair.

 

[moofpi]

I doubt anyone has anything concrete yet, but that's fine because neither do Mewtwo players. Three things I can tell you right off the bat is that Mewtwo did not get into the insane reflect/absorb club so zoning's fine and charging in his face can bait out attempts which you can punish. He's a teleport recover type so he's extremely vulnerable to putting hitboxes on the ledge with sideb and upb. He's also very light and floaty which makes for an easy target when going for traps or punishing with reverse ftilt.

Zoning isn't shutdown, but his reflector is still very much a threat, especially with such a fast Dtilt forcing a projectile or aerial approach (which can also be command grab/reflected). It is also a bit challenging because his tail gives him so much physical range. I wish our limbs were as long his tail -_-

 

[⑨ball]

Zoning isn't shutdown, but his reflector is still very much a threat, especially with such a fast Dtilt forcing a projectile or aerial approach (which can also be command grab/reflected). It is also a bit challenging because his tail gives him so much physical range. I wish our limbs were as long his tail -_-

All reflects are a threat to an extent, but there are only three in the game (I think) that break basic rules about having reflects making them far more dangerous than is worth any attempt. Mewtwo didn't make the cut so he's much better off trying to charge his own projectile than trying to reflect the tiny shots we use for zoning, and because of the above mentioned he can't really afford to just throw out reflect hoping it'll catch something, nor can he reliably reflect on reaction.

Everyone's range can be an issue when you're WFT, which is why knowing how to zone and move are so important.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Rosalina is now analyzing Wii Fit Trainer at her match-up analysis thread. Got anything to say for Rosalina vs. Wii Fit Trainer, we'll be analyzing Wii Fit Trainer until the end of 4/26.

Keep note, however, that at Rosalina's sub-forum, the match-up will be under Rosalina's perspective.

 

[Kirby Phelps (PK)]

Can we talk about THIS GUY!? -

I played against a really good Falco and got my head handed to me. It's his stupid reflector. It really makes using Sun Salutation and Header too dangerous. But even worse, his reflector knocks WFT back, so I can't even get in close. And it's not like I can fight at a mid-range, because WFT's range is awful. It's either get in close or throw projectiles, which Falco has both covered with his reflector. What's a WFT supposed to do? Has anyone else had problems with this match up?

 

[Cress!]

Can we talk about THIS GUY!? -

I played against a really good Falco and got my head handed to me. It's his stupid reflector. It really makes using Sun Salutation and Header too dangerous. But even worse, his reflector knocks WFT back, so I can't even get in close. And it's not like I can fight at a mid-range, because WFT's range is awful. It's either get in close or throw projectiles, which Falco has both covered with his reflector. What's a WFT supposed to do? Has anyone else had problems with this match up?

Duck a lot. Prefer the air most of the fight. Bait out Reflector with Header, then punish with SS. (Prolly won't be quick enough unless you use lagless header.)
That's all I can help with for now. I don't see a lot of Falcos.

 

[⑨ball]

Can we talk about THIS GUY!? -

I played against a really good Falco and got my head handed to me. It's his stupid reflector. It really makes using Sun Salutation and Header too dangerous. But even worse, his reflector knocks WFT back, so I can't even get in close. And it's not like I can fight at a mid-range, because WFT's range is awful. It's either get in close or throw projectiles, which Falco has both covered with his reflector. What's a WFT supposed to do? Has anyone else had problems with this match up?

Use charge cancels to bait out reflector from mid range and punish hard with normals. Don't forget that WFT is very mobile and a great zone breaker with some of the best rewards for punishing in the game, this doesn't change against Falco and rageless/no db nair>usmash will start killing around 72%. The reflector is active as a reflector on return but not as a hitbox, so you can run in after it and hit hard. As Falco's speed is pretty subpar, run in shield is a great way to get in too since you don't have to worry about his burst options too much. Also, noncharged SS spam at mid is pretty solid against Falco because reflecting a 5% projectile is not going to be worth letting WFT get in. If he does, hop over the returning SS and get in close, things like shorthop dair, crossup fair and nair are decent options for pressuring when you're not sure you can punish in time. If you're holding a fullcharge you want to save it for his recovery, as being a fast faller with long active aerials means he can't afford to mess up fighting an edgeguard so he'll want to use phantasm asap-- be ready: lots of your moves will beat it, but SS is takes the least amount of effort for a large reward if you pay a little attention. Once low header trades wreck his recovery so please do. Hoops can do the job too thanks to his fall speed and ledge vulnerability frames.

Also like PK21 said, you want to be crouching often. If you haven't learn rtac yet, now might be a good time so you can crouch under both lasers and reflector on approach.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Also one thing to know about Falco is his up close game is pretty good as well and his edgeguard game with fair, bair and dair spikes off a read. IDK about the WFT MU myself but I would interested in grinding it out sometime this week coming from a Falco player in smash 4.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We've started a training regimen to prepare our bodies so they can handle G-diffuser pressure. Click here to give us some health tips
vs (vs)

In other words, join us in the Fox boards to discuss the Wii Fit vs Fox MU.

 

[Garioshi]

Since I'm getting my ass kicked in my local tournament, which MUs are better for WFT than Ganon? My Ganon is better than my WFT, but I do way better against Bowser Jr. and ZSS as WFT.

 

[⑨ball]

Well if the Ganonboards are anything to go by definitely go Ganon for G&W, Kirby, Bowser Jr. and probably Olimar / Pikachu too. Go Wii Fit for ZSS, Falcon, Sheik, Palutena, Rosalina and probably Yoshi and Luigi. WFT v Ganon is a better bet if you're not confident in the Ganon ditto too (but you'd be missing out on epic Ganon battles).

The rest should most likely sit on Ganon for comfortability and character knowledge since the MU numbers look generally similar. The biggest differences will post likely be your respective gameplans and how you go about them.

 

[Garioshi]

I got destroyed by Junior as Ganon. Think I'm going WFT for that, but otherwise, thank you so much.

 

[⑨ball]

NP~
If you haven't already, make sure you take a look at the nair>usmash thread in the index. It's a little outdated (we actually kill about 10-15% earlier than most of the percents listed), but it's the general idea is still the same and let's you keep Ganon's kill power which you'll need for Jr. as he's heavy as forever.

 

[DairunCates]

Bowser Jr.

Wait... Bowser Jr. is a bad match-up for WFT? Or does Ganon just have an easier time against Bowser Jr.?

 

[Fadacious]

So how's this thread going then? Are we just going to bring up different characters? Everyone else's seems fairly constant and indepth.

What's this new system?

 

[⑨ball]

Wait... Bowser Jr. is a bad match-up for WFT? Or does Ganon just have an easier time against Bowser Jr.?

I can't imagine it would be , but I haven't played a Jr. good enough to call it. Ganonboards seem pretty confident in it so I figured at least they aren't going in blind. All I really know about the MU is that utilt beats all of his approach options, SS eats bombs, his upB goes through invincibility, and nair>usmash kills at 85 no rage. =/

So how's this thread going then? Are we just going to bring up different characters? Everyone else's seems fairly constant and indepth.

What's this new system?

When that went up we were testing multiple open chatrooms and live documents that we were gonna collect info from and then post in a new thread. Things went well, but in the end with an average of about 10-15 active users we decided there was no real need to push forward with it and keep things simple.

 

[DairunCates]

Things went well, but in the end with an average of about 10-15 active users we decided there was no real need to push forward with it and keep things simple.

Also, we don't want people sneaking into the board and learning the deep, dark truth of our biggest combat advantage...

(Complete and total unpredictably stemming from the fact that even half of us don't know how the hell most of our match-ups play out.)

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

I'll list from worst mu to least worst for Wii Fit.

1)Mario
2)Villager
3)Olimar
4)Pikachu
5)Sheik
6)Fox
7)Diddy
8)Lucario
9)Luigi
10)Sonic
11)Duck Hunt
12)Toon Link

In my opinion these are the worst MU's for Wii Fit. Only characters that make me stay on my toes and struggle a bit against. What do they all have in common or somewhat in common? They all exploit Wii Fits lack of range. They all have longer range, out prioritize, outcamp, reflect fast and are small. They are very tedious match ups and I'm happy I live in one of the strangest areas(SoCal) and get to play against great people like Zero, Tyrant, K9, Rich Brown, Larry, And others. It's tough playing against top tiers with default Wii Fit but I'm happy that I am the best Wii Fit here. I still got a lot to learn and practice to take down these powerful players with a risky character.

 

[Lord_Espurr]

I'll list from worst mu to least worst for Wii Fit.

1)Mario
2)Villager
3)Olimar
4)Pikachu
5)Sheik
6)Fox
7)Diddy
8)Lucario
9)Luigi
10)Sonic
11)Duck Hunt
12)Toon Link

In my opinion these are the worst MU's for Wii Fit. Only characters that make me stay on my toes and struggle a bit against. What do they all have in common or somewhat in common? They all exploit Wii Fits lack of range. They all have longer range, out prioritize, outcamp, reflect fast and are small. They are very tedious match ups and I'm happy I live in one of the strangest areas(SoCal) and get to play against great people like Zero, Tyrant, K9, Rich Brown, Larry, And others. It's tough playing against top tiers with default Wii Fit but I'm happy that I am the best Wii Fit here. I still got a lot to learn and practice to take down these powerful players with a risky character.

You're the second person here who says Mario is one of her worst machups. I know he's short and has the cape but I can't see him being that bad. So could you explain why he is in the first spot? Also why is Kirby not on here? Everything we have seems to randomly whiff on him.

 

[Garioshi]

Pikachu is the bane of my existence as WFT.

 

[Lord_Espurr]

Pikachu is the bane of my existence as WFT.

SH header and crouch utilt can help snuff his aerials. In vanilla, I can't give you much advice beyond that.
If you're playing with customs I'd recommed using 3123. Sweeping salutation will go through Thunder jolt even with no charge and jumbo hoops outranges everything he has. Steady breathing can be used to tank a up smash and get an early kill with nair -> usmash.

 

[Wii Twerk Trainer]

You're the second person here who says Mario is one of her worst machups. I know he's short and has the cape but I can't see him being that bad. So could you explain why he is in the first spot? Also why is Kirby not on here? Everything we have seems to randomly whiff on him.

Mario... Where do I start... I have the honor to play against one of the best Mario's in the U.S. He goes by the name Zenyou(sometimes Steroidism). He's high ranked player here in SoCal. Best Mario ever! Mario is small, can combo, outrage, outprioritize, can camp and reflect. Everything Wii Fit is weak against.... He has it all lol I can beat other Marios but damn his Mario beats me constantly. It's rare when I take a game off of him but he makes sure Mario wrecks Wii Fit. Lol playing against him is so irritating... Wii Fit can win its just Mario obviously has the upper hand in the MU. I am getting a lot better against him but I still gotta make sure the Mario MU isn't too much of an issue for me.

I've never had a problem with Kirby. I just play very patient with them. When I have the damage lead I just start to camp and force Kirby to Approvh. I use well timed N-airs when he jumps and start to combo him. I also kill him very early because he's so light.

 

[Garioshi]

Pikachu is basically Oddjob to WFT.

 

[Ffamran]

This better not lead to a rom-com parody of a high jumper with a dark past and a plucky, hardworking sprinter falling for ea-... I said too much.

Hey, Wii Fit Trainers, the Falco boards started their ongoing Wii Fit Trainer matchup discussion and would like some tips from the lovely fitness guru. Link here: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...42-wii-fit-trainer-high-jump-training.405259/.

And if you just want to play with some Falco players or want to learn about the MU, check here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Fancykong]

I would add Greninja to the worst matchup list. It's not as ridiculous as Mario, but being able to make bread and butter moves whiff just by standing there or running, strong ground to air options, on top of his speedy uncharged water shuriken and the range boost he gets from his Fair and smash moves makes him a chore to fight.

Most Greninja players I fight mix in side dodging too much in their ground game, so a stray projectile actually throws them off. Also, he can get a bit flowcharty at times, which is great for WFT since we can use surprise moves, especially offstage. Still, his overall speed is a hassle. Keep it under control by threatening him with hitboxes; the conditioning is key to help setup your combos later.

 

[Potaters]

You're the second person here who says Mario is one of her worst machups. I know he's short and has the cape but I can't see him being that bad. So could you explain why he is in the first spot? Also why is Kirby not on here? Everything we have seems to randomly whiff on him.

I completely agree with Mario being one of her worst matchups. To start off, Mario has a great reflector, which is a big advantage over WFT. He has fireballs that interrupt charging and give him an approach tool. FLUDD negates her side B. Because of the angle on his recovery, it's very hard to put any pressure on him/spike him with an offstage Header, limiting her edgeguard tools to fair, bair, and dair; not too bad, but good luck gimping him with any of those. His dash attack makes him go too low to get grabbed, which makes it almost entirely safe on shield. Now, most frustratingly, is his multitude of options to counter her nair. Mario's nair will usually beat out WFT's nair, meaning you'll have to use a different aerial and miss out on her juicy nair combos. On the ground, Mario has a fast invincible up smash to counter your aerial approaches which she generally relies on since she can't camp Mario. Because of the drawback and disjoint on Mario's f-smash, it's super unsafe to approach him from the front (not that you should be doing that anyway, but it's worth mentioning) or even boxing at him from in front. What I hate most about the MU: Mario's down smash. This thing is nearly unpunishable, outranges everything you attempt, is almost instant, and he shrinks his hurtbox so much that hitting him with anything but a dair is nearly impossible. Because of how good it is, she's forced to always play on the defensive when close to Mario, but with Mario's grabs being so good, even that's scary. Of course Mario's aerials are all very good too (why can't WFT's bair be as good as Mario's?) but I don't know of anything particularly threatening MU-wise.

 

[Zeekfox]

Yeah, I'd agree that Mario is pretty awful for WFT. The only real advantage WFT has is that Super Hoops let her go very deep for an edgeguard, and Mario can be gimped if he's outside of the range where he can snap to the ledge on an up+B. But in terms of killing normally, Mario just destroys WFT because he can throw smashes a lot more safely. The aforementioned up smash with invincibility beating WFT's important aireal game, the down smash's speed and low profile, etc. It's just awful.

I might put Sonic higher on the list of bad matchups though. Those spin dashes give him a low enough profile to give WFT a serious headache, going under uncharged suns and I believe f-tilts as well. Wouldn't be so much of a problem if WFT had a d-tilt that takes her like, a thousand frames to recover from (slight exaggeration, but it's enough for Sonic to get a punish). The only positive is that Sonic has no projectile or relfector, but when he can spin under small suns and just block headers, it becomes difficult to actually get anything on a patient Sonic. Though perhaps some customs like Enriched Sun could really help with that problem.

 

[Fancykong]

What is everyone's take on Rosalina?

I've seen her hailed as one of the top 10 characters, but I haven't played against any that have given me too much trouble (besides Dabuz deliberately aiming for timeouts since he can't catch WFT).

Honestly, although her smashes and aerials are great, WFT can hover around them and punish pretty reliably. And Rosy's famed Uair isn't as effective since WFT has better maneuverability, plus her air Deep Breathing cancel. And offstage is terrible for Rosy. If/when (usually when) they miss their Dair, she becomes fodder for literally all of WFT's usual spikes. Plus, Header beats Luma away from edgeguarding or goes over it and hits Rosy instead. And a smart WFT can just SS cancel into a punish if the opponent starts spamming Down B.

I'm not saying that the matchup is super easy, but I believe that out of the "top tiers," Rosalina is the most even one.

 

[DairunCates]

What is everyone's take on Rosalina?

I've seen her hailed as one of the top 10 characters, but I haven't played against any that have given me too much trouble (besides Dabuz deliberately aiming for timeouts since he can't catch WFT).

Honestly, although her smashes and aerials are great, WFT can hover around them and punish pretty reliably. And Rosy's famed Uair isn't as effective since WFT has better maneuverability, plus her air Deep Breathing cancel. And offstage is terrible for Rosy. If/when (usually when) they miss their Dair, she becomes fodder for literally all of WFT's usual spikes. Plus, Header beats Luma away from edgeguarding or goes over it and hits Rosy instead. And a smart WFT can just SS cancel into a punish if the opponent starts spamming Down B.

I'm not saying that the matchup is super easy, but I believe that out of the "top tiers," Rosalina is the most even one.

Yeah. I think Rosalina is one of our better top tier matchups. Our dual-sided hitboxes really help to guard against luma at times, and Rosalina's attacks are slow enough that we don't get beaten out nearly as often from our slow frame data.

 

[Fancykong]

This better not lead to a rom-com parody of a high jumper with a dark past and a plucky, hardworking sprinter falling for ea-... I said too much.

Hey, Wii Fit Trainers, the Falco boards started their ongoing Wii Fit Trainer matchup discussion and would like some tips from the lovely fitness guru. Link here: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4...42-wii-fit-trainer-high-jump-training.405259/.

And if you just want to play with some Falco players or want to learn about the MU, check here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

I posted an analysis of the WFT/Falco matchup and got no responses.

 

[DairunCates]

I posted an analysis of the WFT/Falco matchup and got no responses.

Yeah. I think the combination of falco not being a SUPER popular character combined with almost no one knowing how our matchups work kinda keeps people from commenting on it. Although, I suppose falco will be a little more popular now that he got buffed in the balance patch.

*sigh* Someday...

 

[Ffamran]

I posted an analysis of the WFT/Falco matchup and got no responses.

What DairunCates said and not only that, but the patch kind of made Falco into a new character with how his air game works now. Might want to hold off for a while. It's there if anyone has a notable Falco in their region or is somehow being plagued by pheasants.

 

[Fancykong]

I did my analysis well before the patch and waited about a week or two, so it's probably just apathy on their part. Sad, because matchup threads are a great nexus point for different mains and a great launching point for learning new strategies and playstyles.

 

[⑨ball]

I posted an analysis of the WFT/Falco matchup and got no responses.

I started to do a write up from Falco's perspective but then I had some things to attend to. Came back and Falco got buffed. It'll be worth the time to reanalyze it from both sides.

Also started reading Suzuka. Goddamit @ Ffamran .

I suppose it's just like WFT to have such varied opinions on character MUs seeing as our styles can be so varied. The only characters I've ever thought to switch for are Kirby and Villager, though new strategies I've been looking into might change these quite a bit.

What is everyone's take on Rosalina?

Never once thought this was a bad MU. Believed it to be solidly in our favor before her nerfs and even after. Not sure what I'd have thought given we knew then what we all know now on both sides.

Anyway, some thoughts on the 1.08 patch.

Lucas, Roy, and Ryu!​

Spoiler: 1.08

We've never discussed much on Ike because he isn't common. More so that WFT, less so than the main one's we've covered. Always underestimated, always a threat. Like Ganon with a sword in a lot of ways. Pretty happy about his buffs as I think of him as my secondary(even though I'm doubtful he can cover my bad MUs anybetter) but they don't much affect our gameplan vs him. If you run into any, beware the new uthrow and fair changes. Uair having landing lag close to nair with longer active frames is pretty scary too. Otherwise proceed as normal.


Same story here. Happy about her buffs. Uncommon. Buffs don't drastically change the MU. Fast fall nair can combo into usmash and upB so keep it in mind. You never wanted to land on usmash before -- you really don't want to now.


No nerf Greninja jokes please. OK buff. Should help him in other matches, but nothing to write home about here. I don't think this is a bad MU and we should probably discuss it so that known options and issues against him can be more wide spread.


I have little no experience against Sword. Trela makes him look good and I see respectable players like San interested in him so he could be a threat one day. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it I suppose.


Got two luxury buffs and one notable one. Nair's landing lag doesn't change much afaik, can't see any MK's using jab on purpose. Ftilt is his real jab and the knockback and angle changes are pretty welcome. A bit more scary. Lots of people are saying he's high tier now, but I've felt he was for some time now, but that might be the bias talking. It'll probably effect how often ftilt is thrown out even though fsmash is still the most dangerous spacing tool he has. Becoming relatively common as his recognition grows so the discussion needs to happen soon.


The only character you see less than WFT and Zelda might be seen a lot more soon with incredible throw buffs. Never faced any competent Zards, but that might change very soon. As of now we've got a base of zoning, combos, and edgeguarding to sit on, but he'll be fishing for throws harder than ever now so however this MU played before is very likely to change.


Overall buff to utilt. Not enough to warrant any metashifts. Still needs some type of discussion.


An Fsmash nerf that'll go generally unnoticed. I should probably check to see if any of his recovering animations have been changed. I highly doubt it though. =/


Balloons run on fuel now hurting consecutive uses. Something that rarely happened outside of customs. Might help the long term edgeguard, but I don't have any faith in this affecting Village at all in customs off and yet to be seen in customs on. Dthrow damage buff means likely more things off of throws, but bad grabs should limit it quite a bit.


Huge reduction on PSI magnet which was already pretty absurd considering it had an area affect, something no reflect or absorb should have. Anyway, zoning and charge cancel baiting are pretty much unviable now as he can use this for free. SS is pretty much exclusively used for counter spacing now. Haven't played him yet, but I bet it's going to be hell now. Really questionable buff, but hey, at least Luigi has a bigger threat to contest now.


Air preference has been officially confirmed. Bread has no fingerprints. Nair links properly now for the most part. Fair is faster on startup and endlag. Uair lost it's sourspot(so no more uair>bair worries) but now comes out on frame 7. Dair functions like dairs should all function but is still pretty bad on stage. Looking forward to seeing how his meta advances as I rather like Falco. A bit scared of what this means for the MU. We need to gather experience so feel free to use that thread Ffamran linked above. The more info the better.


Dtilt got some knockback increase. Nothing huge for the mu but a buffed tool is a more viable one and increase it's likely hood of use in the neutral and disadvantage(yours) so we'll see how things play out.

/
1.08 was very kind to Fire Emblem. Knockback buffs on utilt and ftilt making them even better kill moves. Neutral air landing lag reduced so it's an even better approach and spacing option, probably combos on hit more reliably now too. Lucina's counter now says something "Up High!" ?, as such she is now SS in waifutiers. Dolphin slash had some knockback buffs too and even Crescent slash had some hitlag added(this might actually be a nerf of sorts but nothing huge). Most notably their jabs have been tweaked so they link correctly now and pop up on hit setting up some very scary situations. Absolutely need to open these MUs back up.


Luma got an HP buff so she's back to 50 hp. Not huge, but big enough considering it's Rosalina&Luma. Rosalina(not Luma) had a rapid jab finisher knockback reduction. It's rare to get caught in that part but it was definitely a high % kill move. Won't affect much I'd imagine. Couldn't hurt to update any of our thoughts on characters. More than justified when there are changes.


Better linking jabs due to kb reduction on jab one. Do want. No change to the MU. Needs discussing.


All cargo throws have been buffed. I'm curious how much this will affect cargo uthrow>uair so I'll test and drop my finding soon enough. Aerial cargo down throw has the majority of my interest. The little hop he does now has a gleam of potential for nasty setups.


Yoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!! Seriously though, Diddy finally got the uair changes he was supposed to get,(frame data) but he got them on top of damage and knockback nerfs. Twice. With uair now functioning as a normal uair I don't think many people will give Diddy top 3. Top 5 is arguable, but still solid overall. In fact as with all damage reductions, kill power lessens, but combo potential increases, and something I was playing with after half an hour or so seems pretty silly (uthrow>dair). Dtilt got a small damage reduction. Dthrow buffed, and uthrow nerfed. Jab links better but still useless next to dtilt. Hit hard, but he'll bounce back. Looking forward to seeing how things change with the uair changes. Everything else'll play generally the same, best to talk about it again for a clearer picturer of our states. Especially considering we haven't since 1.05.


Uair nerfs. Would have much rather they decided that dash attack didn't need a disjoint that extended far enough ahead of him to detonate bob-ombs and far enough below him that it hit crouching characters. Fsmash and Usmash too since they makes no sense. Cie la v'est. Goodbye cheesy uair kills, hello more consistent uair>uair combos. Not sure if this is better or worse considering WFT's disadvantage state. Guess we'll see.


Longer grab and better dthrow for followups. Never been particularly afraid of getting grabbed by tethers, but I'm happy to see high risk grabs getting something. Usmash s better and dtilt has better startup and endlag. Subtle but effective. Unlikely to affect either of our opinions on the MU.


Better usmash with knockback and size buffs. Not nearly large enough imo. I'd have traded it for lower lag on missles with a slower travel rate. A man can dream. No large changes to MU but one we need to talk about since playing as and against Samus can teach us a lot.



Utilt had small damage changes on the looping hitboxes. Don't plan on seeing this for yourself anytime soon. No significant MU changes.


Pikmin order doesn't messup when grabbing the ledge. Nothing else to say here. No MU changes.


Usmash had a kb nerf and dair had an ending lag reduction. They sort of balance each other out, but with the utility dair has I believe it'll be a buff overall. They'll miss the usmash kills but not terribly, the reduction wasn't huge. I can see the dair change altering the flow of the MU and possible new options to deal with when recovering. Needs to be talked about again.


Wind Jabs push her offstage now. They really got their most notable buff in the last patch as they link better giving her better options to build damage. We could stand to talk about her again.


Jab 2 size increased. Obviously won't be breaking the MU anytime soon and seems to be dropping notably in popularity despite being decent. Not at the top of the list for characters we need info on, but we shouldn't forget her.


Jab 1 trajectories changed. Jab 2 size increases. Another character who's dtilt is way better as a jab. No changes to the MU but with Wario becoming more and more recognized as the high tier he is, he's a MU we'll absolutely have to know now.


Not too impressed with Lucas to be honest. Better recovery than Ness, and neutral B is actually usable, but is the poor man's Ness in every other aspect. This isn't to say he's bad at all. He's got tons of potential with decent hitboxes and a great throw game. It's just all very underwhelming in comparison and considering the amount of commitment he needs to do things I can't say I have any fear of running into Lucas at all. Don't sleep on his usmash and things should progress the same if not easier since you have less to worry about as far as getting grabbed or naired oos.


Who doesn't love Ryu? They really did the character justice. Feels strong and with lots of budding potential but from what I've played we certainly have the tools to handle him. Crouch hurts him pretty bad, but having a fast dtilt that combos into your specials helps. Can't compete with SS in zoning at all. Kill power and damage building out the whazoo but no disjoints and normal speed means he's playing WFT's game. Supposedly heavy but dies surprisingly early to kill setups and is gets comboed pretty hard. Edge guarding is also really effective with the cool down on tatsumaki and his generally linear paths. His meta is developing so we need to keep an eye on him so we make sure we always have the tools to win.


My boy has returned. Roy is looking like the biggest threat to us out of all the newcomers. With good power, speed, combos, setups, grabs and throws there's a lot of PH1R3 to fear. Crouch, like with all FE characters, can avoid his grabs, but with his amazing short hop, decent aerials that have amazing IASA frames and the all too familiar sword disjoint, not to mention dash attack being good enough to risk on approach every once in a while, Roy's got a lot going for him that could go very badly for WFT. I've yet to test whether or not utilt can perform it's magic on any of the dlc characters, and a decent MU against the son of Eliwood may be banking on it. Recovery is only slightly better than Falcon's so that's looking good, and being a fast faller as always makes one combo food. It'll be interesting to see where things go but for now it looks like our boy is the man of the house.

 

[Fancykong]

I suppose it's just like WFT to have such varied opinions on character MUs seeing as our styles can be so varied. The only characters I've ever thought to switch for are Kirby and Villager, though new strategies I've been looking into might change these quite a bit.

Yeah, I used to counterpick for those two until I realized that Kirby has problems hitting targets faster than him, especially when they're throwing projectiles at him, lol. Then I just bulldoze through Villager by advancing with RAR Bairs, and lately I've even been able to Usmash their Dair before it fully comes out . It's crazy how versatile she/he is considering what the general opinion of her has been so far.

 

[sc458]

Crouching is so good against Ryu. Already beginning to not dread that match-up.