Noticing more OP characters...

[Eight Melodies]

Hey, don't forget the PK Thunder, it's important for Ness (I think ?).

Yeah, but it's not PK Fire.

 

[Code Bread]

Bat is oober doober slow in this game, though. Only good for roll punishes. But then again, that's 90% of For Glory anyway.

 

[mashedsmash]

I haven't ran into many Greninjas yet, so I can't speak of that. But when I'm up against a Little Mac, I find that shield grabbing works for me usually; just pop them into the air and combo them. I try to give them no chance to recover, and just keep them busy. Also for Ness, because his back grab (not sure of the proper term) is so powerful, you can stand at one far edge of the platform, and shield grab to get KOs. This especially works well if the Little Mac you're playing against is clumsy.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I haven't ran into many Greninjas yet, so I can't speak of that. But when I'm up against a Little Mac, I find that shield grabbing works for me usually; just pop them into the air and combo them. I try to give them no chance to recover, and just keep them busy. Also for Ness, because his back grab (not sure of the proper term) is so powerful, you can stand at one far edge of the platform, and shield grab to get KOs. This especially works well if the Little Mac you're playing against is clumsy.

Yeah that's the strategy I think everyone who's fought a little mac came to. My problem with him is that there's not many characters that can contest little mac on the ground so if they don't have a projectile you're kinda screwed especially if you're fighting one who knows exactly what you're trying to do, I literally waited 2 minutes for mac to approach me or attack me he waited me out because I was Ganondorf there was nothing I could do that wouldn't get punished except shield and wait

 

[CronoT]

For most of the Greninja I played against, it looks like he was designed purely for a flat level to take advantage of his moveset. Ironically enough, a slower fighter like a Link with lots of projectiles does fairly well against Greninja. It's all about forcing a large amount of space to prevent his easily stringable combos. Also, while not OP, Mr Game & Watch is certainly a broken character due to his frame animations. Because of the way he's animated his attacks have almost no cooldown frames, and he can attack right out of his recovery move, unlike most other characters. Some serious balancing is needed there. Finally, for now, Megaman's up air needs to have a limit to its effect. I've literally been carried up off the top of the stage by having it spammed at me. Its just like the Luigi Ladder, except it only takes one character to do it.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

For most of the Greninja I played against, it looks like he was designed purely for a flat level to take advantage of his moveset. Ironically enough, a slower fighter like a Link with lots of projectiles does fairly well against Greninja. It's all about forcing a large amount of space to prevent his easily stringable combos. Also, while not OP, Mr Game & Watch is certainly a broken character due to his frame animations. Because of the way he's animated his attacks have almost no cooldown frames, and he can attack right out of his recovery move, unlike most other characters. Some serious balancing is needed there. Finally, for now, Megaman's up air needs to have a limit to its effect. I've literally been carried up off the top of the stage by having it spammed at me. Its just like the Luigi Ladder, except it only takes one character to do it.

Totally agree about game and watch, I played someone really good today and he charged his d smash and missed I went to punish him and he instantly went into f smash and K'O'd me, needless to say I was confused I actually had to save the replay to figure out what happened.

 

[BBC7]

Megaman's up air needs to have a limit to its effect. I've literally been carried up off the top of the stage by having it spammed at me. Its just like the Luigi Ladder, except it only takes one character to do it.

As a Mega Man player, I personally disagree with limiting U-Air. It's a pretty weird move when it comes to how early it can kill, but I'd rather have that then just have it be a meh projectile that takes forever to kill. If other characters like Sheik or ZSS can be treated to a U-Air that kills, why not Mega Man? It's equally as predictable and probably harder to land because you can't change the direction of the Air Shooter once it's off and doesn't juggle all that well because it doesn't take much to avoid it. If it's somewhat difficult to land, I don't see why it shouldn't kill once you actually hit someone with it.

 

[fromundaman]

So I just saw/read through this thread and as a result will reply to multiple posts at once:

But their moves are slow and punishable.
It is about racking up the damages with fast moves, not knocking them back. You can kill them late, but if you don't let them touch you with their strong moves, you don't get knocked out. P.S. it helps if you play a fast character.

Clearly you have never been hit by Ganon's Ftilt

Honestly I think High/Top Tiers in no particular order will consist of:

Out of curiosity, what do you think makes Olimar so good? I honestly can't see him being anything other than bottom, even after playing against a really good one.

Yeah that's the strategy I think everyone who's fought a little mac came to. My problem with him is that there's not many characters that can contest little mac on the ground so if they don't have a projectile you're kinda screwed especially if you're fighting one who knows exactly what you're trying to do, I literally waited 2 minutes for mac to approach me or attack me he waited me out because I was Ganondorf there was nothing I could do that wouldn't get punished except shield and wait

Yo.... You're playing Ganon and claiming Lil Mac is OP? Yeah, you can't shield grab (Lol Ganon's grab range is so bad...), but you do outrange him with Dtilt, choke gives no ****s about super armor, and Ftilt kills him at pretty much any percent.
Also if you hit a dash attack or a Dtilt you can pretty easily combo him into death with Uairs (Outside of low %s he can counter out, but it's not that hard to read when that's his ONLY air option).

Jab gives Ganon issues, but other than that perfect shield/dodge and punish (Some of Mac's moves are punishable on block for Ganon, but most aren't due to his ****-tastic grab range). Bait a roll and punish. Ganon literally needs to hit Little Mac twice to win.

As a Mega Man player, I personally disagree with limiting U-Air. It's a pretty weird move when it comes to how early it can kill, but I'd rather have that then just have it be a meh projectile that takes forever to kill. If other characters like Sheik or ZSS can be treated to a U-Air that kills, why not Mega Man? It's equally as predictable and probably harder to land because you can't change the direction of the Air Shooter once it's off and doesn't juggle all that well because it doesn't take much to avoid it. If it's somewhat difficult to land, I don't see why it shouldn't kill once you actually hit someone with it.

I want to add that it can be absorbed/countered/airdodged/etc ON HIT as well. It is a good move, but it's not GREAT (Hell it's not even in his top 5 moves) but not needing any changes. Hell, if you did want to "fix" the move, then instead of nerfing it, add actual hitstun to it so people can't escape it/absorb it AFTER being hit by it.

 

[ConeZ]

So I just saw/read through this thread and as a result will reply to multiple posts at once:


Clearly you have never been hit by Ganon's Ftilt



Out of curiosity, what do you think makes Olimar so good? I honestly can't see him being anything other than bottom, even after playing against a really good one.






Yo.... You're playing Ganon and claiming Lil Mac is OP? Yeah, you can't shield grab (Lol Ganon's grab range is so bad...), but you do outrange him with Dtilt, choke gives no ****s about super armor, and Ftilt kills him at pretty much any percent.
Also if you hit a dash attack or a Dtilt you can pretty easily combo him into death with Uairs (Outside of low %s he can counter out, but it's not that hard to read when that's his ONLY air option).

Jab gives Ganon issues, but other than that perfect shield/dodge and punish (Some of Mac's moves are punishable on block for Ganon, but most aren't due to his ****-tastic grab range). Bait a roll and punish. Ganon literally needs to hit Little Mac twice to win.





I want to add that it can be absorbed/countered/airdodged/etc ON HIT as well. It is a good move, but it's not GREAT (Hell it's not even in his top 5 moves) but not needing any changes. Hell, if you did want to "fix" the move, then instead of nerfing it, add actual hitstun to it so people can't escape it/absorb it AFTER being hit by it.

I played against a pretty good one 3 times in a row, and then a less good one, and I am convinced that they improved the rest of his kit in return for taking away 3 pikmin in addition to giving him a lineup that he can reliably predict what he gets next.
I dunno. I think people are sleeping on him because people just assumed he is worse because he has less pikmin. It's kinda like Diddy where he lost his banana game, but is still arguably one of the best characters in the game. This is all speculation though.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Right now in the current meta I see no character being OP and I have 220 games online played. I see shulk and Robin being played more in the future by more people.

 

[bluetailsfox11]

I know I am going to get laughed at, but I always seem to have a problem with samus in FG .-.
All the ones I play spam side b and charge b and fire when i'm recovering.

And I think robin is easy to KO if they dont spam thunder and you dtilt in the air and then up smash.

 

[Terotrous]

Before people start saying "oh you can just throw Little Mac off the Stage", please watch at least one video of a good Little Mac, thanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8c4b11oJ0E

Little Mac's recovery is not nearly as bad as people are saying. He has counter and air dodge to escape simplistic "throw off the edge and then aerial", and he can also wall jump. In order to stop him recovering near the stage you need a good read.

 

[XxBHunterxX]

Before people start saying "oh you can just throw Little Mac off the Stage", please watch at least one video of a good Little Mac, thanks:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8c4b11oJ0E

Little Mac's recovery is not nearly as bad as people are saying. He has counter and air dodge to escape simplistic "throw off the edge and then aerial", and he can also wall jump. In order to stop him recovering near the stage you need a good read.

Interesting and I would say they were good players, I think people don't understand mac's strengths well because the wanna believe that every mac player is a scrub who doesn't know how to play the game well

 

[Freduardo]

I played Wario against a Mac pretty recently.

Got my tail handed to me.

Though I started a much stronger comeback when I started attacking him pretty much solely from the air.

I just wish I started doing that two lives before I did. Ah well.

 

[fromundaman]

I played against a pretty good one 3 times in a row, and then a less good one, and I am convinced that they improved the rest of his kit in return for taking away 3 pikmin in addition to giving him a lineup that he can reliably predict what he gets next.
I dunno. I think people are sleeping on him because people just assumed he is worse because he has less pikmin. It's kinda like Diddy where he lost his banana game, but is still arguably one of the best characters in the game. This is all speculation though.

Hmmm okay. Maybe he felt weaker because of the character I played (Megaman), but it seems really easy to eliminate an entire pikmin line with a short combo leaving him more or less helpless until he plucks again (AKA he gets juggled to death without Pikmin). The fact he can only have one purple at a time seemed bad too since the others have pretty ****ty priority.
Finally I could be wrong on this but it felt like they got rid of elemental immunities since Crash Bomb was demolishing all of his Pikmin at once, including the red one.

 

[KingTeo]

I don't think any character is OP. You can find ways to deal with anything. Just adapt

 

[XxBHunterxX]

I don't think any character is OP. You can find ways to deal with anything. Just adapt

I agree but op doesn't necessarily mean you wouldn't find a way to deal with them it's more like if the way you found is the only effective method while they have multiple ways of dealing with everyone else, if they didn't have an effective strat they would be considered broken

 

[Terotrous]

I don't think any character is OP. You can find ways to deal with anything. Just adapt

The problem is that the opponent character can adapt too, and if they have more options than you do you'll run out of adaptations first.

 

[DavemanCozy]

If we look at the previous smash games when their metas started to develop:

Melee had Sheik and Marth, who were nastily better than the rest of the cast. Most wins were coming from these two characters in the first few years of the game. It took a bunch of years to realize Fox and Falco's potential.

Brawl had Snake, who was winning nearly every tourney when the game first came. Then Meta Knight came, and the reign of the King of Mews started.

Smash 4: I've seen ROB, Diddy Kong, Greninja, Robin, Rosalina, Yoshi, Sheik, Ness, Bowser, Little Mac, Sonic, among others, all being played at a high level, with most of them either winning or placing very well in the tourneys so far.

Look at that. The amount of characters that seem viable in this game atm exceed the combined list of viable characters from Melee + Brawl. I think there will be more to emerge eventually too. Let the meta flesh out before you start calling characters OP.

 

[Luggy]

There's no "OP" characters. Sakurai and his team managed to balance the game very well and I think every character can be considered as viable if you play well.

 

[DavemanCozy]

There's no "OP" characters. Sakurai and his team managed to balance the game very well and I think every character can be considered as viable if you play well.

I dunno about that. There are definitely characters like Ganon or Shulk that come short compared to the others.

Not that it's impossible to win with them either. You're right in that this is a well balanced game: no matchup seems to be Luigi vs Meta Knight Brawl hard or Link vs Sheik Melee hard. We'll just have to keep playing and exploring to find out though

 

[Luggy]

I dunno about that. There are definitely characters like Ganon or Shulk that come short compared to the others.

Not that it's impossible to win with them either. You're right in that this is a well balanced game: no matchup seems to be Luigi vs Meta Knight Brawl hard or Link vs Sheik Melee hard. We'll just have to keep playing and exploring to find out though

Of course, some characters seems to be under others, but if the player is good, you can defeat anything.
But yeah, the metagame (and the game itself) is pretty young, so we still need to explore.

 

[ZombieBran]

95% of fighting game tier lists post release start with "this game is so balanced!" and diverse impressions. But eventually, some characters will prove so much better than others.

We already have a pretty good consensus of the top tiers (Sheik, Rosalina, Zamus, Greninja). I can only see the balance flaws becoming more and more prominent.

Of course, some characters seems to be under others, but if the player is good, you can defeat anything.
But yeah, the metagame (and the game itself) is pretty young, so we still need to explore.

Nothing is ever "unbeatable", sure. But you have cases where one player can afford to play much less well and still score a huge win just because his/her choice of character is much better than their opponent's.

 

[Holder of the Heel]

The only character I see earning the title of "OP" right now is Rosalina. Dabuz from the two tourneys I've seen of him has been far and away the most powerful play from someone (which doesn't mean she is OP, just noting the highest level potential witnessed hitherto). And from my personal experience, which is little, it is very frustrating to do anything because my combos and punishes can be ruined (or punished) because of Luma (who is never gone for more than just seconds at a time and you can't exactly focus Luma without Rosalina taking its place and being the punisher instead), her aerials scare me (particularly the Up-air), and gravity pull has good utility. Also the only character that's allowed to combo smashes into smashes but that might just be poor DI in most cases haha.

Probably a matter of playing more, I will admit. Just seems like my options are severely limited in those matches compared to every other match-up, even when the opponent, using someone else, is vastly more skilled than me.

I've heard from Denti, who is either the second or possibly best Smash 4 player so far (Sheik main), that she has counters in the "mid-tier" which is interesting, wish he spoke more on that and why there weren't more Rosalina's at tourneylocator.

Little Mac's recovery is not nearly as bad as people are saying. He has counter and air dodge to escape simplistic "throw off the edge and then aerial", and he can also wall jump. In order to stop him recovering near the stage you need a good read.

So then it's a simplistic predict the air dodge/counter then aerial? It certainly helps since they can read your read and just try to recover, but if that coin flip happens every time he's tossed off stage, then that's not very good. At all.

I'm not saying he's bad, and I'm very sure a decent Little Mac would mop the floor with me, just saying that at no point is handling Little Mac off stage anything but "simplistic".

 

[BioZelink]

Little Mac? All u have to do is trow him off the edge and hit him once, I haven't met a single little mac in for glory to actually beat me. And why would greninja be op? I can't see a single.thing about him that is.

 

[Luggy]

Little Mac? All u have to do is trow him off the edge and hit him once, I haven't met a single little mac in for glory to actually beat me. And why would greninja be op? I can't see a single.thing about him that is.

Yeah, only in the "For Glory" mode that you can see really bad/clumsy Mac. However, really good players that plays Little Mac aren't that "easy" to defeat I think.

 

[ConeZ]

Hmmm okay. Maybe he felt weaker because of the character I played (Megaman), but it seems really easy to eliminate an entire pikmin line with a short combo leaving him more or less helpless until he plucks again (AKA he gets juggled to death without Pikmin). The fact he can only have one purple at a time seemed bad too since the others have pretty ****ty priority.
Finally I could be wrong on this but it felt like they got rid of elemental immunities since Crash Bomb was demolishing all of his Pikmin at once, including the red one.

I mean maybe I am the one that is wrong. I think I'll make an attempt to pick up Olimar, and see how he feels myself. Nothing like a 50-100 game run to see how a character feels.

 

[Terotrous]

So then it's a simplistic predict the air dodge/counter then aerial? It certainly helps since they can read your read and just try to recover, but if that coin flip happens every time he's tossed off stage, then that's not very good. At all.

It depends where he is off stage. If he is close enough to the stage that he can make it back just using his double jump alone, his recovery is pretty free, he has many options to alter where he will recover and you won't generally be able to cover enough of them to have a serious shot at the gimp. Where he starts to become susceptible to the 50/50 is when he has to use a move to recover, because his recovery options can be stuffed, but the way you stuff it depends on which one he goes for and if done properly you can't really react to the one he chooses, you just have to guess. At long distance, he just can't make it back at all, either he only has one recovery option and it's totally obvious and easily stuffed, or he literally just can't make it back period.


Compared to the rest of the cast, this is definitely one of the weakest recoveries. However, it's not no recovery whatsoever, which is how a lot of people treat his recovery. If you just push him over the side, he's going to get back, you have to send him out there with at least a decent amount of force to at least get him to that mid range 50/50 option.

 

[ConeZ]

OR if you are Captain Falcon, you just put him in the air and don't let him get down.
If he starts air dodging/ countering, you just time out it and punish. Falcon is just kinda like I own this place as soon as Mac leaves the ground. Provided, Mac has answers on the ground, I think that the matchup with my main is definitely in Falcon's favor. Just imo xD

 

[Narth]

I don't understand why people are saying Greninja is OP, he's rather challenging to play as, just like Little Mac is. I put him in the class of characters that are difficult to get used to, but are very formidable fighters when used correctly. Mega Man falls into this category, and no one seems to be calling him OP.

 

[ConeZ]

I don't understand why people are saying Greninja is OP, he's rather challenging to play as, just like Little Mac is. I put him in the class of characters that are difficult to get used to, but are very formidable fighters when used correctly. Mega Man falls into this category, and no one seems to be calling him OP.

That is because Megaman is not hard to deal with. Megaman is overall underwhelming.
Littlemac is not OP because he has a very defined weakness that is pretty easy to exploit.
Greninja is not OP, but he IS definitely high/top tier. The reason people have a hard time with him is because he has more options in any given situation than most characters, so it is hard for a lot of people to deal with him. (I.E. his neutral game is above average)

 

[Narth]

That is because Megaman is not hard to deal with. Megaman is overall underwhelming.
Littlemac is not OP because he has a very defined weakness that is pretty easy to exploit.
Greninja is not OP, but he IS definitely high/top tier. The reason people have a hard time with him is because he has more options in any given situation than most characters, so it is hard for a lot of people to deal with him. (I.E. his neutral game is above average)

Mega Man can be a formidable fighter in the right hands, trust me.

 

[ZombieBran]

Mega Man can be a formidable fighter in the right hands, trust me.

Formidable, but still very underwhelming.

Even his much touted Metal Blade is just not as effective as many other projectiles some characters (who are not even projectile focused!) have.

 

[Terotrous]

OR if you are Captain Falcon, you just put him in the air and don't let him get down.
If he starts air dodging/ countering, you just time out it and punish. Falcon is just kinda like I own this place as soon as Mac leaves the ground. Provided, Mac has answers on the ground, I think that the matchup with my main is definitely in Falcon's favor. Just imo xD

The ledge is always an option vs anybody you really don't want to try to recover onstage against. Little Mac has a pretty fast fastfall, so unless you're right in his face he can usually get to the ledge pretty safely, and if you are right there he can attempt to go over you with his double jump or side B.

 

[fromundaman]

Mega Man can be a formidable fighter in the right hands, trust me.

Shhhhh... let him stay slept on for now so I can keep fishing for props when I win.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

95% of fighting game tier lists post release start with "this game is so balanced!" and diverse impressions. But eventually, some characters will prove so much better than others.

We already have a pretty good consensus of the top tiers (Sheik, Rosalina, Zamus, Greninja). I can only see the balance flaws becoming more and more prominent.

Of those four, it seems like Sheik and Greninja are tougher to use right than Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus.

 

[ConeZ]

The ledge is always an option vs anybody you really don't want to try to recover onstage against. Little Mac has a pretty fast fastfall, so unless you're right in his face he can usually get to the ledge pretty safely, and if you are right there he can attempt to go over you with his double jump or side B.

I just think from experience against Mac's here at GSU and online thusfar, the matchup is easy for Falcon imo. Granted, it is not unwinnable for Mac, he has a very hard time getting down once he is above Falcon because Falcon also has a fast fast fall, and if he uses the side b to avoid being juggled, Falcon's dash speed is fast enough to punish that move.
I think time will better tell the matchup, and we will better be able to see as the meta unfolds, but the match really does feel like it favors Falcon in my experience.

I will say I am interested to play a good set of games against a skilled Mac.
And I am also excited to be a part of the community while the meta develops xD
I wanna see what characters are used in any major tournaments over the course of the next year. I am honestly hoping to see more Falcon. I love Falcon dittos xD

 

[BLUJAY]

i dont think little mac is op sure hes a monster on thje ground but in the air hes the worst in my opinion middle of mid hes a glass canon

 

[KenMeister]

Of those four, it seems like Sheik and Greninja are tougher to use right than Rosalina and Zero Suit Samus.

Agreed, getting a KO setup with Sheik can be difficult when your opponent has a god-like recovery. lol

 

[BLUJAY]

but as far as op
Getting close:
Just high tier:
keep in mind i dont know much about tiers so theres that and i guess to each its own