Not doing anything about mii

[NegaNixx]

Thank you. I will take this as praise considering most of them are useless drains upon society, vastly overpaid for the 'work' they do to establish what amounts to corporatism.



Remaining absolutely patient becomes hard when you have to repeat the same points over and over and over and over and over and over. It becomes hard when people ignore demonstrable evidence ("equipment works on Miis in Customs off!" "No it doesn't, here is proof", then it comes back up again just days later, then again and again?). It becomes hard when people say 'broken' about a character that has no major wins to their name.

It becomes hard when a freaking Sheik player talks about other characters being 'broken.' That requires such an amazing amount of bad-faith that they deserve to be called out.

Mii players are getting angry because they're getting nowhere being nice. Offering calm points, producing verifiable evidence of how Miis actually work, looking at tournament results, cooperating with TOs to reduce logistical/time-using concerns... not a damn bit of it has mattered. We've gone from 'Mii Freedom' to 'Miis locked in to 1111-only 50-50ish size because that satisfies some whiny punk definition of fairness... or outright banned in some venues.' All this, from some of the most absurd justifications I've ever seen frightening TOs into following the will of a very whiny minority.

When a Sheik player comes in to throw fuel onto the fire, they shouldn't be surprised - nobody should - when the previously calm crowd decides to drag him in and let him feel the heat too.

I am done playing 'politics' over this.

You get absolutely nothing out of making yourself look angry they'll take that negative image and turn it against pro Mii players.

Politicians may be useless but they generally know how to present themselves. That's important.

 

[GeneralLedge]

lmao is this how Smashboards normally acts?

Et tu?

You mentioned a character is broken, which is fine; it's your opinion, and you're entitled to your opinion.

However, the solution you mentioned is oblivious to your previous statement: exactly why the character you said was broken, is broken. The general assumption as to why "1122" is "broken" comes down to early kills and crazy mobility.

Of the 1122, the latter two moves, up and down B, are the two moves that offer early kills and additional mobility, respectively. As such, your suggested solution of "1111", "2222", and "3333" isn't so much a frowned-upon decision (in context; it's certainly frowned upon for other reasons), but because "2222" is fundamentally, equally as "broken" as the set you said we should avoid.

As such, you don't appear to know what you're talking about, as you've conveyed a solution to opinion that is contradictory to your own opinion.

It's confusing, and confusion is contagious.

Thank you. I will take this as praise considering most of them are useless drains upon society, vastly overpaid for the 'work' they do to establish what amounts to corporatism.

Politicians may be useless but they generally know how to prevent themselves

Do you guys want me to get an admin in here? I'd say the fault lays on NegaNixx for placing bait, but I can't say I'm terribly impressed with Pegasus taking the bait either.

Keep politics out of the topic, please. I may not be an admin, but I know that road leads to ruin and flame-wars, of which neither are productive in this or any topic.

 

[NegaNixx]

Et tu?

You mentioned a character is broken, which is fine; it's your opinion, and you're entitled to your opinion.

However, the solution you mentioned is oblivious to your previous statement: exactly why the character you said was broken, is broken. As you said, "1122" is "broken", but your assumption as to why it's broken comes down to early kills and crazy mobility.

Of the 1122, the latter two moves, up and down B, are the two moves that offer early kill moves and additional mobility. As such, your suggested solution of "1111", "2222", and "3333" isn't so much a frowned-upon decision (in context; it's certainly frowned upon for other reasons), but because "2222" is fundamentally, equally as "broken" as the set you said we should avoid.

As such, you don't appear to know what you're talking about, as you've conveyed a solution to opinion that is contradictory to your own opinion.

It's confusing, and confusion is contagious.



Do you guys want me to get an admin in here? I'd say the fault lays on NegaNixx for placing bait, but I can't say I'm terribly impressed with Pegasus taking the bait either.

Keep politics out of the topic, please. I may not be an admin, but I know that road leads to ruin and flame-wars, of which neither are productive in this or any topic.

Sorry I didn't know I was starting a flame war my bad. Wasn't trying to bait.

 

[LightLV]

The problem is that those characters aren't Miis. If Miis were other, preexisting characters that had access to all of their specials with customs off, there would be no debate at all.

I find the banning of Mii's absolutely positively deliciously hilarious when Sheik/diddy/rosalina/ZSS are running around invalidating characters in droves with their standard movesets while Miis have yet to place top 10 in anything.

the only argument that makes any sense right now happens to be the setup time argument.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

And even that isn't much of an argument when we've laid out tons of easy, useful tools to massively cut down on Mii setup time.

 

[Rashyboy05]

lmao is this how Smashboards normally acts? You guys need to settle yourselves down, sometimes people don't agree with your opinions on what rulesets should be used.

When people saying again and again that Mii Smaller is it's a proven fact that they aren't. It's natural for anyone to get annoyed if they have to deal with that same argument again.. and again.. and again...

 

[wizrad]

Importing a Mii is as fast as or faster than making one with a guest Mii.

 

[Jigglymaster]

There should be like a competition of sorts where people try to beat me with 2122 Med Brawler against one of my secondaries.

Don't really think the character is viable when you know the MU. Tiny Brawler is a different story tho.

 

[blackghost]

There should be like a competition of sorts where people try to beat me with 2122 Med Brawler against one of my secondaries.

Don't really think the character is viable when you know the MU. Tiny Brawler is a different story tho.

the character is extremely linear. dmaage output, recvery, ect. hes very flowchart based. but dont use logic on players that call for irrational restrictive rules.

 

[wizrad]

There should be like a competition of sorts where people try to beat me with 2122 Med Brawler against one of my secondaries.

Don't really think the character is viable when you know the MU. Tiny Brawler is a different story tho.

You don't think medium 2122 Brawler is viable? Why not? He's certainly not tiny, but I always thought he'd be fine, maybe with a secondary to handle characters who can zone him out.

 

[Jigglymaster]

You don't think medium 2122 Brawler is viable? Why not? He's certainly not tiny, but I always thought he'd be fine, maybe with a secondary to handle characters who can zone him out.

With proper DI (holding towards the stage when being D-thrown) causes a situation where no point in time can Brawler combo AND kill you with his infamous D-throw Helicopter Kick combo. UNLESS, you get grabbed at the very edge of the stage, so far out that your characters body isn't above solid ground anymore. Getting grabbed there actually makes the d-throw's throw distance shorter, allowing Brawler to combo into his Helicopter Kick at higher percents. As long as you don't specifically get grabbed there, you'll be just fine.

To secure things even further, you can avoid getting grabbed at the ledge by simply not ever putting yourself there, even if it means putting yourself in a position where you'll get hit by another move. As long as it's not the grab towards the edge, you're fine. You won't die AND you'll live past the scary percentage that Mii Brawler is known for being good at.

Mii Brawler's weakpoint has always been the fact that if you get past 70%, he really struggles to kill you. All of his smash attacks have very bad frame data. His only other kill moves are his ultimate uppercut, Raw Helicopter Kick, or onslaught. All of which are easily baitable since he can't kill you while you're in shield. None of his throws will kill and none of his air attacks besides helicopter kick will kill. Playing defensively in the air and on the ground creates a situation where he has to land a really risky/hard read in order to kill you. Then you just rack up damage by countering his attacks and suddenly the MU is easy peasy. He doesn't even have a decent projectile option to camp you out with, he HAS to approach, and he's not even good at it. His n-air only leads into grab, so he won't be n-airing you into F-smash. If he jumps you just have to meet him in the air and trade.
Brawler mains have to get really creative in order to find their kills when they don't get the standard stuff.

Tiny Brawler is a whole different case because he has d-throw to U-air or F-air into Up B, which expands that kill combo much further than what Med Brawler can do.

It honestly doesn't matter which character I use, I'm hardly even have secondary characters, I just know the MU so well that I'm confident I could exploit it's weakness and render Brawler useless.

 

[wizrad]

So I'm guessing you're back to the opinion that Smawler is best, then? The only reason I've ever doubted it is because it's a little harder to do the pillaring thing with short Miis.

 

[Jigglymaster]

So I'm guessing you're back to the opinion that Smawler is best, then? The only reason I've ever doubted it is because it's a little harder to do the pillaring thing with short Miis.

Smawler has always been better. But to utilize him better than Med Brawler you have to understand enough about the character to be able to handle his decreased range, increased speed, and new combos.

Med Brawler is probably better at a lower level of play where it's easier to control the character and your opponent doesn't understand the MU. In top level of play, Smawler is the only one who will have a chance. Sure Med size still has a chance currently, but if people were to learn the MU over the course of say, a year or so of having to fight against it, pretty much every single top player will understand it by then.

 

[Pazx]

Smawler has always been better. But to utilize him better than Med Brawler you have to understand enough about the character to be able to handle his decreased range, increased speed, and new combos.

Med Brawler is probably better at a lower level of play where it's easier to control the character and your opponent doesn't understand the MU. In top level of play, Smawler is the only one who will have a chance. Sure Med size still has a chance currently, but if people were to learn the MU over the course of say, a year or so of having to fight against it, pretty much every single top player will understand it by then.

Do you think Smawler is ban-worthy? (by virtue of either being too good or being a hassle to set up)

 

[Jigglymaster]

Do you think Smawler is ban-worthy? (by virtue of either being too good or being a hassle to set up)

Smawler is not better than Shiek. You can generally use the same stat of avoiding getting grabbed near the ledge and taking damage on purpose. If he runs at you and jumps, you do the same thing and trade with him. Smawler may have a better d-throw u-air/f-air helicopter kick combo, but he has to hard read your DI since the timing to combo with it is strict. If he doesn't kill with the move when he goes for it, he's now just as screwed as Med Brawler.

The only problem with Smawler is that he basically requires a 3DS transfer, but I'm in support of the 3DS transfer in general, mostly because I'm sick of playing boring looking miis or guest miis. I want to play as the mii fighter that I specifically created. That's what makes the character in my eyes.

 

[wizrad]

In my opinion, Smawler sits just outside the top 5. I used to think he was only worse than Sheik, but, with the rise of Pikachu and Luigi and with basically everyone learning how simple the matchup is, I've seen the light. Some (including me) have said Smawler doesn't even crack the top 10, but the fact is that having a kill combo at 40% is crazy and demands respect. Smawler is great, but no better than Sheik, Rosalina, Pikachu, Luigi, ZSS, or Sonic (or maybe even Ness), and he certainly does not warrant any sort of ban or restriction.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Frankly, I have to agree with the sentiment that 0-0 Brawler is no worse than Sheik/ZSS/etc. If they're not a problem, Smawler isn't a problem either. 'False equivalency' fallacy, perhaps, but if we're letting one form of early-KO combo rock then we ought to let the other form of it go too, esp. since Smawler's is somewhat able to be mitigated by stage choice.

 

[ZarroTsu]

What people need to realize is Smawler doesn't so much kill you at 40%, as he forces you into a situation where he can kill you at 40%.

You need to learn to play your game, not theirs. Playing their game and losing and then ******** about it is what school children do when someone tries to tell you "Pokemon weakness in Pokemon cards? You see this resistance -30? That means weakness only does 30 more damage, not double!"

(This actually happened back when I was in elementary school. ****** in the playground was stealing people's cards in "take-all battles")

But I digress, at the moment everyone is playing ZeRo's (meta-)game and losing. It doesn't so much boggle my mind that they seek his advice for rules and regulations for his game, but it boggles my mind that nobody realizes they're playing his game.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

But he's a top player, and if I've learned anything about Smash over the years it's that we will allow top players to get away with anything. Anything.

 

[John12346]

I'm posting this to a lot of social media outlets, but I figure why not post it here too, eh? Keep in mind the formatting might be a little funky, that's just for the sake of other sites being able to display it.

For this post, I’m going to refer to the Specials that Mii Fighters have as Mii Specials, because one of the points I intend to argue is that they are NOT Custom Specials, which is what I argue every other character has, and that unfortunately includes Palutena.
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Alright, so we seriously need to talk about the legality of Mii Fighters and their Specials in Smash 4.

I’m gonna go ahead and get right to the point, and state that Miis should have full, legal access to all of their Special moves, rather than constantly being restricted to “1111” or worse, the super arbitrary “1111, 2222, and 3333.” Not only are they allowed by the game’s internal logic when the Customizations setting is set to “Off,” but they fulfill all the requirements needed to be competitively sound in the scope of tournament play. Of course, I intend to prove all of that in due time, but we first have to ask ourselves, why are a good deal of U.S. tournaments disallowing Mii Specials from use in the first place? If we answer that question, we can start to unravel the problems surrounding this controversial topic.
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Now, before I get into things, as far as height and weight settings, Guest Miis CAN be used as a standard, because Guest Miis are the only Miis that remain a constant throughout each individual Wii U. If customized height and weight combinations are used, there is obviously no guarantee that they are going to be on every single Wii U, and that could cause a few hiccups at a tournament event, so it’s fine for the most part to leave it like that. This is all stated from a logistics standpoint and it’s a perfectly valid stance to have.
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So first and foremost, let’s talk about why U.S. tournaments are generally banning Mii Specials. We just recently finished EVO 2015, and as a result, a lot of American regions have begun to disallow Custom Specials from use in tournament play. However, for a lot of these regions, that also went on to include Mii Specials in the list of exclusions. My guess is as good as anyone’s on this topic, but I believe that the reason for this is that there’s simply a stigma against ANY kind of alternative Special move usage, be it Custom Specials or something else. It’s a pretty simple conclusion to extrapolate from, considering all of the controversy that surrounded Custom Specials before they more or less met their end at the conclusion of EVO 2015. However, what a large proportion of the U.S scene doesn’t understand is that Mii Specials are a completely separate matter from Custom Specials in many regards. I’m going to be explaining my reasoning more in-depth below, but Mii Specials are extremely far removed from Custom Specials in many ways, and the differences they have will help demonstrate why Mii Specials are far more suited for competitive play than Custom Specials are.

It’s important to note that, in most non-American countries, Custom Specials were never really adopted as a standard in rulesets for any measure of time, but Mii Special legality was (Note: I said MOST, not ALL. I know Umebura just happened, and they didn’t allow Mii Specials there). This is especially prevalent in Europe, where a good amount of their countries (Apparently, Germany, France, Spain, and Norway, noted here: http://smashboards.com/threads/zeros-current-position-on-mii-rulings.413815/page-3#post-20094148 There are probably other countries too.) follow the free Mii Special legality format. I understand that we shouldn’t just blindly follow other countries in terms of ruleset decisions, but this just feels like a natural progression we would have had in our own rulesets if we were Customization free from Day 1. Just think about it, if we, the U.S., had never run Custom Specials in our tournaments by any measure, I’m certain that we would have been allowing full legality for Mii Specials to this day. It’s only because we ran Custom Specials in the first place, and came to understand what was wrong with them, that we started to develop this aversion to Mii Specials too, since they are similar in some regards, admittedly (primarily how they are accessed through the game’s UI).
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So, to argue that Mii Specials should be legal in a Custom Specials banned environment, two points need to be proven:

- Mii Specials and Custom Specials are not the same.
- Mii Specials are perfectly viable for competition.

To do this, we need to examine the differences between the Default Specials, Mii Specials, and Custom Specials. Allow me to bullet these points down…
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1. Mii Specials and Custom Specials are not the same:

* * * Mii Specials are allowed even if Customizations is set to “Off.” * * *

So, this is the obvious point that a lot of people bring up when arguing for Mii Special legality, and it’s a valid one. When you’re on the character selection screen, if Customizations are “Off” and Mii is chosen, you still get the drop down menu to choose your customized loadout. If you try this with any other character, you don’t get to choose from any such menu. That character is simply defaulted to their 1111 moveset. Building on this, it has to be mentioned that there is NO instance in the game where you can choose Mii and you get their 1111 loadout of Specials by default. In addition, when Customizations are “Off,” and you choose a Mii, if you pick a loadout that has Equipment attached to it, that Equipment actually gets disabled for the match!

And that’s not all. In the latest update of Smash 4, which would be version 1.1.0, we obtained the ability to host online tournaments. And in these tournaments, players are allowed to set a wide variety of toggles. One of them is Customizations, of course, but interestingly, there was a new toggle added that has never been present in the offline Rules menu, named “Mii Fighters.” And it goes without saying, if Customizations are set to “Off,” and Mii Fighters are set to “On,” players participating in the tournament are completely free to choose Mii and any combination of Mii Specials that they desire, all the while with their Equipment being disabled.

When you put all of this information together, it tells us that the game’s definition of “Customizations” extends to Equipment attached to any character, and Custom Specials for all of the other characters. Mii Specials, however, are treated in a much different fashion. Regardless of whether or not Customizations are present, Mii Fighters with any combination of Mii Specials are treated the EXACT SAME WAY as a default character locked to their 1111 moveset. They are NOT considered in the same way as Custom Specials.

The game holds such a huge distinction between Mii Specials and Custom Specials. And by the way the UI handles the selection of Miis, it tells us that each individual Mii Fighter, with their own individual combinations of Mii Specials, should be treated as their own individual default character. They are not “Custom” in the same way Custom Specials are.
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* * * A massive proportion of Mii Specials are being balanced in addition to Default Specials, whereas Custom Specials are seeing very little in terms of balance adjustments. * * *

So let’s talk about balance updates. Since the game’s release, many, many Default Specials have been receiving changes with each balance update, whereas very few Custom Specials have received the same kind of treatment. You can actually see a tabulated list of changes to Default Specials and Custom Specials between 1.0.4 and 1.0.8 here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...edition-evo-sets.395721/page-18#post-19549768 There are 58 changes to Default Specials, and 11 changes to Custom Specials. And don’t forget, there are TWICE as many Custom Specials as there are Default Specials, so that puts these numbers into perspective. It’s plain to see that Default Specials are receiving much more care and attention in the balancing department, especially when you take into account that most changes to Custom Specials are bugfixes or infinite removals, rather than actual balance adjustments.

With the latest update of 1.1.0, this trend continues, with a wide array of Default Specials being touched up for competitive play, and Custom Specials being relatively unchanged for the most part. You can view a complete changelog here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/ What’s interesting about this latest update, however, is that many of the Mii Specials, including the 2s and 3s Specials have received actual balance adjustments. A total of 14 out of the 36 available Mii Specials got this treatment, and if you’ll notice, 12 out of those 14 were 2s and 3s Specials! You’ll also note that these changes were actual balance adjustments, rather than the extremely sparse “bug fixes and infinite removals” you see with Custom Specials (Case in point: one of the only changed Custom Specials in 1.1.0 was Pikachu’s Thunder Wave, and its only change was to remove its ability to infinite opponents).

With all of this in mind, there’s a reason why these moves in particular are receiving balance adjustments. It implies that the developers’ intent was for players to take ALL of the available Mii Specials as seriously as Default Specials, unlike Custom Specials where it is difficult to pinpoint exactly how competitive they were intended to be.
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2. Mii Specials are viable for competition:

* * * Mii Specials are being balanced. * * *

So, I just went through this point, but MII SPECIALS ARE BEING BALANCED. Regardless of whether or not you want to take them as seriously as Default Specials, it’s undeniable that the development team is actually fine tuning them for competition. Custom Specials aren’t being balanced, and I suppose that’s part of the reason why we ultimately dropped them after EVO 2015 concluded… But Mii Specials are receiving the same amount of fine-tuning and care that any other character and their Default Specials are receiving. There’s not much else to say about this, but I would hope this counts as a huge point in favor of Mii Special legality.
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* * * None of the 2s or 3s of Mii Specials warrant a ban. * * *

This is somewhat an obvious point, but not a single Mii Special is even close to being overpowered enough to warrant a ban from competitive play. If nothing about these moves comes across as broken or overpowered, then there really should be no reason for them to be banned in the first place. That’s pretty much all that needs to be said on the matter, but regardless, I suppose this point is also worth mentioning…

The only Mii Special you COULD make a case for being overpowered is Mii Brawler’s Helicopter Kick, with its high base knockback and ease of comboability. However it’s severely underwhelming when compared to a lot of other characters’ “finisher” Special moves, and harmless once you know how to work around it. Aaand… I might as well just tell you how to do that right now. If you get grabbed and Dthrown by Mii Brawler at the following percents:

0% to 30% - There’s not much you can do to avoid the Helicopter Kick follow-up, but you won’t die no matter where on the stage you’re caught with this.

30% to 60% - You still can’t avoid the Helicopter Kick follow-up, but now it may kill you at this percentage range if you’re caught close to the edge of a stage. So… stay away from the edges of stages at all costs.

60% and higher – DI towards Mii Brawler’s back and Helicopter Kick will become impossible to connect with at this point. You can also use this DI at the previous damage ranges to make it harder (but not impossible) for him to land the combo.
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So… that’s really all I had to say on the matter. Mii Fighters truly are a unique group of characters. With the ability to mix up their Special moves on the fly, they are characters that can be customized to a player’s tastes, and it's a really interesting concept, even if I and many others don’t use these guys in tournament play. However, I hate to see their potential squandered just because TOs are so super afraid of anything that even resembles Custom Specials. I hope you all can understand my point of view, and hopefully help change the “official” ruling on Mii Fighters for the best.
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tl;dr: We have a stigma against Mii Specials because of Custom Specials and really need to cut it out. The developers designed Mii Specials to be something completely different from Custom Specials and Customizations in general. Mii Specials are also completely sound for competitive play, and there’s absolutely no reason to disallow them.

Social Media Mirrors:
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JohnGNumbers/posts/10205295112402659
Twitter: https://twitter.com/JohnNumbers/status/646832517828493312
Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3m4ubu/john_numbers_here_with_some_candid_thoughts_on/

 

[Pegasus Knight]

(Pretty much everything we've been saying for a while, but now it's being said by a high-level, well-regarded player)

THANK YOU

JohnNumbers for best John and best Numbers 2015 and 2016

 

[san.]

I'm posting this to a lot of social media outlets, but I figure why not post it here too, eh? Keep in mind the formatting might be a little funky, that's just for the sake of other sites being able to display it.

For this post, I’m going to refer to the Specials that Mii Fighters have as Mii Specials, because one of the points I intend to argue is that they are NOT Custom Specials, which is what I argue every other character has, and that unfortunately includes Palutena.
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Alright, so we seriously need to talk about the legality of Mii Fighters and their Specials in Smash 4.

I’m gonna go ahead and get right to the point, and state that Miis should have full, legal access to all of their Special moves, rather than constantly being restricted to “1111” or worse, the super arbitrary “1111, 2222, and 3333.” Not only are they allowed by the game’s internal logic when the Customizations setting is set to “Off,” but they fulfill all the requirements needed to be competitively sound in the scope of tournament play. Of course, I intend to prove all of that in due time, but we first have to ask ourselves, why are a good deal of U.S. tournaments disallowing Mii Specials from use in the first place? If we answer that question, we can start to unravel the problems surrounding this controversial topic.
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Now, before I get into things, as far as height and weight settings, Guest Miis CAN be used as a standard, because Guest Miis are the only Miis that remain a constant throughout each individual Wii U. If customized height and weight combinations are used, there is obviously no guarantee that they are going to be on every single Wii U, and that could cause a few hiccups at a tournament event, so it’s fine for the most part to leave it like that. This is all stated from a logistics standpoint and it’s a perfectly valid stance to have.
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So first and foremost, let’s talk about why U.S. tournaments are generally banning Mii Specials. We just recently finished EVO 2015, and as a result, a lot of American regions have begun to disallow Custom Specials from use in tournament play. However, for a lot of these regions, that also went on to include Mii Specials in the list of exclusions. My guess is as good as anyone’s on this topic, but I believe that the reason for this is that there’s simply a stigma against ANY kind of alternative Special move usage, be it Custom Specials or something else. It’s a pretty simple conclusion to extrapolate from, considering all of the controversy that surrounded Custom Specials before they more or less met their end at the conclusion of EVO 2015. However, what a large proportion of the U.S scene doesn’t understand is that Mii Specials are a completely separate matter from Custom Specials in many regards. I’m going to be explaining my reasoning more in-depth below, but Mii Specials are extremely far removed from Custom Specials in many ways, and the differences they have will help demonstrate why Mii Specials are far more suited for competitive play than Custom Specials are.

It’s important to note that, in most non-American countries, Custom Specials were never really adopted as a standard in rulesets for any measure of time, but Mii Special legality was (Note: I said MOST, not ALL. I know Umebura just happened, and they didn’t allow Mii Specials there). This is especially prevalent in Europe, where a good amount of their countries (Apparently, Germany, France, Spain, and Norway, noted here: http://smashboards.com/threads/zeros-current-position-on-mii-rulings.413815/page-3#post-20094148 There are probably other countries too.) follow the free Mii Special legality format. I understand that we shouldn’t just blindly follow other countries in terms of ruleset decisions, but this just feels like a natural progression we would have had in our own rulesets if we were Customization free from Day 1. Just think about it, if we, the U.S., had never run Custom Specials in our tournaments by any measure, I’m certain that we would have been allowing full legality for Mii Specials to this day. It’s only because we ran Custom Specials in the first place, and came to understand what was wrong with them, that we started to develop this aversion to Mii Specials too, since they are similar in some regards, admittedly (primarily how they are accessed through the game’s UI).
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So, to argue that Mii Specials should be legal in a Custom Specials banned environment, two points need to be proven:

- Mii Specials and Custom Specials are not the same.
- Mii Specials are perfectly viable for competition.

To do this, we need to examine the differences between the Default Specials, Mii Specials, and Custom Specials. Allow me to bullet these points down…
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.
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1. Mii Specials and Custom Specials are not the same:

* * * Mii Specials are allowed even if Customizations is set to “Off.” * * *

So, this is the obvious point that a lot of people bring up when arguing for Mii Special legality, and it’s a valid one. When you’re on the character selection screen, if Customizations are “Off” and Mii is chosen, you still get the drop down menu to choose your customized loadout. If you try this with any other character, you don’t get to choose from any such menu. That character is simply defaulted to their 1111 moveset. Building on this, it has to be mentioned that there is NO instance in the game where you can choose Mii and you get their 1111 loadout of Specials by default. In addition, when Customizations are “Off,” and you choose a Mii, if you pick a loadout that has Equipment attached to it, that Equipment actually gets disabled for the match!

And that’s not all. In the latest update of Smash 4, which would be version 1.1.0, we obtained the ability to host online tournaments. And in these tournaments, players are allowed to set a wide variety of toggles. One of them is Customizations, of course, but interestingly, there was a new toggle added that has never been present in the offline Rules menu, named “Mii Fighters.” And it goes without saying, if Customizations are set to “Off,” and Mii Fighters are set to “On,” players participating in the tournament are completely free to choose Mii and any combination of Mii Specials that they desire, all the while with their Equipment being disabled.

When you put all of this information together, it tells us that the game’s definition of “Customizations” extends to Equipment attached to any character, and Custom Specials for all of the other characters. Mii Specials, however, are treated in a much different fashion. Regardless of whether or not Customizations are present, Mii Fighters with any combination of Mii Specials are treated the EXACT SAME WAY as a default character locked to their 1111 moveset. They are NOT considered in the same way as Custom Specials.

The game holds such a huge distinction between Mii Specials and Custom Specials. And by the way the UI handles the selection of Miis, it tells us that each individual Mii Fighter, with their own individual combinations of Mii Specials, should be treated as their own individual default character. They are not “Custom” in the same way Custom Specials are.
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* * * A massive proportion of Mii Specials are being balanced in addition to Default Specials, whereas Custom Specials are seeing very little in terms of balance adjustments. * * *

So let’s talk about balance updates. Since the game’s release, many, many Default Specials have been receiving changes with each balance update, whereas very few Custom Specials have received the same kind of treatment. You can actually see a tabulated list of changes to Default Specials and Custom Specials between 1.0.4 and 1.0.8 here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...edition-evo-sets.395721/page-18#post-19549768 There are 58 changes to Default Specials, and 11 changes to Custom Specials. And don’t forget, there are TWICE as many Custom Specials as there are Default Specials, so that puts these numbers into perspective. It’s plain to see that Default Specials are receiving much more care and attention in the balancing department, especially when you take into account that most changes to Custom Specials are bugfixes or infinite removals, rather than actual balance adjustments.

With the latest update of 1.1.0, this trend continues, with a wide array of Default Specials being touched up for competitive play, and Custom Specials being relatively unchanged for the most part. You can view a complete changelog here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/ What’s interesting about this latest update, however, is that many of the Mii Specials, including the 2s and 3s Specials have received actual balance adjustments. A total of 14 out of the 36 available Mii Specials got this treatment, and if you’ll notice, 12 out of those 14 were 2s and 3s Specials! You’ll also note that these changes were actual balance adjustments, rather than the extremely sparse “bug fixes and infinite removals” you see with Custom Specials (Case in point: one of the only changed Custom Specials in 1.1.0 was Pikachu’s Thunder Wave, and its only change was to remove its ability to infinite opponents).

With all of this in mind, there’s a reason why these moves in particular are receiving balance adjustments. It implies that the developers’ intent was for players to take ALL of the available Mii Specials as seriously as Default Specials, unlike Custom Specials where it is difficult to pinpoint exactly how competitive they were intended to be.
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2. Mii Specials are viable for competition:

* * * Mii Specials are being balanced. * * *

So, I just went through this point, but MII SPECIALS ARE BEING BALANCED. Regardless of whether or not you want to take them as seriously as Default Specials, it’s undeniable that the development team is actually fine tuning them for competition. Custom Specials aren’t being balanced, and I suppose that’s part of the reason why we ultimately dropped them after EVO 2015 concluded… But Mii Specials are receiving the same amount of fine-tuning and care that any other character and their Default Specials are receiving. There’s not much else to say about this, but I would hope this counts as a huge point in favor of Mii Special legality.
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* * * None of the 2s or 3s of Mii Specials warrant a ban. * * *

This is somewhat an obvious point, but not a single Mii Special is even close to being overpowered enough to warrant a ban from competitive play. If nothing about these moves comes across as broken or overpowered, then there really should be no reason for them to be banned in the first place. That’s pretty much all that needs to be said on the matter, but regardless, I suppose this point is also worth mentioning…

The only Mii Special you COULD make a case for being overpowered is Mii Brawler’s Helicopter Kick, with its high base knockback and ease of comboability. However it’s severely underwhelming when compared to a lot of other characters’ “finisher” Special moves, and harmless once you know how to work around it. Aaand… I might as well just tell you how to do that right now. If you get grabbed and Dthrown by Mii Brawler at the following percents:

0% to 30% - There’s not much you can do to avoid the Helicopter Kick follow-up, but you won’t die no matter where on the stage you’re caught with this.

30% to 60% - You still can’t avoid the Helicopter Kick follow-up, but now it may kill you at this percentage range if you’re caught close to the edge of a stage. So… stay away from the edges of stages at all costs.

60% and higher – DI towards Mii Brawler’s back and Helicopter Kick will become impossible to connect with at this point. You can also use this DI at the previous damage ranges to make it harder (but not impossible) for him to land the combo.
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So… that’s really all I had to say on the matter. Mii Fighters truly are a unique group of characters. With the ability to mix up their Special moves on the fly, they are characters that can be customized to a player’s tastes, and it's a really interesting concept, even if I and many others don’t use these guys in tournament play. However, I hate to see their potential squandered just because TOs are so super afraid of anything that even resembles Custom Specials. I hope you all can understand my point of view, and hopefully help change the “official” ruling on Mii Fighters for the best.
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tl;dr: We have a stigma against Mii Specials because of Custom Specials and really need to cut it out. The developers designed Mii Specials to be something completely different from Custom Specials and Customizations in general. Mii Specials are also completely sound for competitive play, and there’s absolutely no reason to disallow them.

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Nice post. I hope others read this. I think Mii sizes are up to the logistics of the tournaments being held and whether they think they'll be able to support it/ allow transferring.

 

[19_]

I'm posting this to a lot of social media outlets, but I figure why not post it here too, eh? Keep in mind the formatting might be a little funky, that's just for the sake of other sites being able to display it.

For this post, I’m going to refer to the Specials that Mii Fighters have as Mii Specials, because one of the points I intend to argue is that they are NOT Custom Specials, which is what I argue every other character has, and that unfortunately includes Palutena.
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Alright, so we seriously need to talk about the legality of Mii Fighters and their Specials in Smash 4.

I’m gonna go ahead and get right to the point, and state that Miis should have full, legal access to all of their Special moves, rather than constantly being restricted to “1111” or worse, the super arbitrary “1111, 2222, and 3333.” Not only are they allowed by the game’s internal logic when the Customizations setting is set to “Off,” but they fulfill all the requirements needed to be competitively sound in the scope of tournament play. Of course, I intend to prove all of that in due time, but we first have to ask ourselves, why are a good deal of U.S. tournaments disallowing Mii Specials from use in the first place? If we answer that question, we can start to unravel the problems surrounding this controversial topic.
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Now, before I get into things, as far as height and weight settings, Guest Miis CAN be used as a standard, because Guest Miis are the only Miis that remain a constant throughout each individual Wii U. If customized height and weight combinations are used, there is obviously no guarantee that they are going to be on every single Wii U, and that could cause a few hiccups at a tournament event, so it’s fine for the most part to leave it like that. This is all stated from a logistics standpoint and it’s a perfectly valid stance to have.
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So first and foremost, let’s talk about why U.S. tournaments are generally banning Mii Specials. We just recently finished EVO 2015, and as a result, a lot of American regions have begun to disallow Custom Specials from use in tournament play. However, for a lot of these regions, that also went on to include Mii Specials in the list of exclusions. My guess is as good as anyone’s on this topic, but I believe that the reason for this is that there’s simply a stigma against ANY kind of alternative Special move usage, be it Custom Specials or something else. It’s a pretty simple conclusion to extrapolate from, considering all of the controversy that surrounded Custom Specials before they more or less met their end at the conclusion of EVO 2015. However, what a large proportion of the U.S scene doesn’t understand is that Mii Specials are a completely separate matter from Custom Specials in many regards. I’m going to be explaining my reasoning more in-depth below, but Mii Specials are extremely far removed from Custom Specials in many ways, and the differences they have will help demonstrate why Mii Specials are far more suited for competitive play than Custom Specials are.

It’s important to note that, in most non-American countries, Custom Specials were never really adopted as a standard in rulesets for any measure of time, but Mii Special legality was (Note: I said MOST, not ALL. I know Umebura just happened, and they didn’t allow Mii Specials there). This is especially prevalent in Europe, where a good amount of their countries (Apparently, Germany, France, Spain, and Norway, noted here: http://smashboards.com/threads/zeros-current-position-on-mii-rulings.413815/page-3#post-20094148 There are probably other countries too.) follow the free Mii Special legality format. I understand that we shouldn’t just blindly follow other countries in terms of ruleset decisions, but this just feels like a natural progression we would have had in our own rulesets if we were Customization free from Day 1. Just think about it, if we, the U.S., had never run Custom Specials in our tournaments by any measure, I’m certain that we would have been allowing full legality for Mii Specials to this day. It’s only because we ran Custom Specials in the first place, and came to understand what was wrong with them, that we started to develop this aversion to Mii Specials too, since they are similar in some regards, admittedly (primarily how they are accessed through the game’s UI).
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So, to argue that Mii Specials should be legal in a Custom Specials banned environment, two points need to be proven:

- Mii Specials and Custom Specials are not the same.
- Mii Specials are perfectly viable for competition.

To do this, we need to examine the differences between the Default Specials, Mii Specials, and Custom Specials. Allow me to bullet these points down…
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1. Mii Specials and Custom Specials are not the same:

* * * Mii Specials are allowed even if Customizations is set to “Off.” * * *

So, this is the obvious point that a lot of people bring up when arguing for Mii Special legality, and it’s a valid one. When you’re on the character selection screen, if Customizations are “Off” and Mii is chosen, you still get the drop down menu to choose your customized loadout. If you try this with any other character, you don’t get to choose from any such menu. That character is simply defaulted to their 1111 moveset. Building on this, it has to be mentioned that there is NO instance in the game where you can choose Mii and you get their 1111 loadout of Specials by default. In addition, when Customizations are “Off,” and you choose a Mii, if you pick a loadout that has Equipment attached to it, that Equipment actually gets disabled for the match!

And that’s not all. In the latest update of Smash 4, which would be version 1.1.0, we obtained the ability to host online tournaments. And in these tournaments, players are allowed to set a wide variety of toggles. One of them is Customizations, of course, but interestingly, there was a new toggle added that has never been present in the offline Rules menu, named “Mii Fighters.” And it goes without saying, if Customizations are set to “Off,” and Mii Fighters are set to “On,” players participating in the tournament are completely free to choose Mii and any combination of Mii Specials that they desire, all the while with their Equipment being disabled.

When you put all of this information together, it tells us that the game’s definition of “Customizations” extends to Equipment attached to any character, and Custom Specials for all of the other characters. Mii Specials, however, are treated in a much different fashion. Regardless of whether or not Customizations are present, Mii Fighters with any combination of Mii Specials are treated the EXACT SAME WAY as a default character locked to their 1111 moveset. They are NOT considered in the same way as Custom Specials.

The game holds such a huge distinction between Mii Specials and Custom Specials. And by the way the UI handles the selection of Miis, it tells us that each individual Mii Fighter, with their own individual combinations of Mii Specials, should be treated as their own individual default character. They are not “Custom” in the same way Custom Specials are.
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.
* * * A massive proportion of Mii Specials are being balanced in addition to Default Specials, whereas Custom Specials are seeing very little in terms of balance adjustments. * * *

So let’s talk about balance updates. Since the game’s release, many, many Default Specials have been receiving changes with each balance update, whereas very few Custom Specials have received the same kind of treatment. You can actually see a tabulated list of changes to Default Specials and Custom Specials between 1.0.4 and 1.0.8 here: http://smashboards.com/threads/offi...edition-evo-sets.395721/page-18#post-19549768 There are 58 changes to Default Specials, and 11 changes to Custom Specials. And don’t forget, there are TWICE as many Custom Specials as there are Default Specials, so that puts these numbers into perspective. It’s plain to see that Default Specials are receiving much more care and attention in the balancing department, especially when you take into account that most changes to Custom Specials are bugfixes or infinite removals, rather than actual balance adjustments.

With the latest update of 1.1.0, this trend continues, with a wide array of Default Specials being touched up for competitive play, and Custom Specials being relatively unchanged for the most part. You can view a complete changelog here: http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/ What’s interesting about this latest update, however, is that many of the Mii Specials, including the 2s and 3s Specials have received actual balance adjustments. A total of 14 out of the 36 available Mii Specials got this treatment, and if you’ll notice, 12 out of those 14 were 2s and 3s Specials! You’ll also note that these changes were actual balance adjustments, rather than the extremely sparse “bug fixes and infinite removals” you see with Custom Specials (Case in point: one of the only changed Custom Specials in 1.1.0 was Pikachu’s Thunder Wave, and its only change was to remove its ability to infinite opponents).

With all of this in mind, there’s a reason why these moves in particular are receiving balance adjustments. It implies that the developers’ intent was for players to take ALL of the available Mii Specials as seriously as Default Specials, unlike Custom Specials where it is difficult to pinpoint exactly how competitive they were intended to be.
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2. Mii Specials are viable for competition:

* * * Mii Specials are being balanced. * * *

So, I just went through this point, but MII SPECIALS ARE BEING BALANCED. Regardless of whether or not you want to take them as seriously as Default Specials, it’s undeniable that the development team is actually fine tuning them for competition. Custom Specials aren’t being balanced, and I suppose that’s part of the reason why we ultimately dropped them after EVO 2015 concluded… But Mii Specials are receiving the same amount of fine-tuning and care that any other character and their Default Specials are receiving. There’s not much else to say about this, but I would hope this counts as a huge point in favor of Mii Special legality.
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* * * None of the 2s or 3s of Mii Specials warrant a ban. * * *

This is somewhat an obvious point, but not a single Mii Special is even close to being overpowered enough to warrant a ban from competitive play. If nothing about these moves comes across as broken or overpowered, then there really should be no reason for them to be banned in the first place. That’s pretty much all that needs to be said on the matter, but regardless, I suppose this point is also worth mentioning…

The only Mii Special you COULD make a case for being overpowered is Mii Brawler’s Helicopter Kick, with its high base knockback and ease of comboability. However it’s severely underwhelming when compared to a lot of other characters’ “finisher” Special moves, and harmless once you know how to work around it. Aaand… I might as well just tell you how to do that right now. If you get grabbed and Dthrown by Mii Brawler at the following percents:

0% to 30% - There’s not much you can do to avoid the Helicopter Kick follow-up, but you won’t die no matter where on the stage you’re caught with this.

30% to 60% - You still can’t avoid the Helicopter Kick follow-up, but now it may kill you at this percentage range if you’re caught close to the edge of a stage. So… stay away from the edges of stages at all costs.

60% and higher – DI towards Mii Brawler’s back and Helicopter Kick will become impossible to connect with at this point. You can also use this DI at the previous damage ranges to make it harder (but not impossible) for him to land the combo.
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So… that’s really all I had to say on the matter. Mii Fighters truly are a unique group of characters. With the ability to mix up their Special moves on the fly, they are characters that can be customized to a player’s tastes, and it's a really interesting concept, even if I and many others don’t use these guys in tournament play. However, I hate to see their potential squandered just because TOs are so super afraid of anything that even resembles Custom Specials. I hope you all can understand my point of view, and hopefully help change the “official” ruling on Mii Fighters for the best.
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tl;dr: We have a stigma against Mii Specials because of Custom Specials and really need to cut it out. The developers designed Mii Specials to be something completely different from Custom Specials and Customizations in general. Mii Specials are also completely sound for competitive play, and there’s absolutely no reason to disallow them.

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Nice post but I think one you forgot to mention: counterpicking. I think the thought of mii's counterpicking moves sets during a set may seem unfair to those against mii specials legality. I remember the idea only one moveset per set kinda solves this issue, but that anti players may still say it's unfair. Just a Devils Advocate here; I really want to mess with mii gunner.

 

[san.]

Nice post but I think one you forgot to mention: counterpicking. I think the thought of mii's counterpicking moves sets during a set may seem unfair to those against mii specials legality. I remember the idea only one moveset per set kinda solves this issue, but that anti players may still say it's unfair. Just a Devils Advocate here; I really want to mess with mii gunner.

When Mii players blindpick, they must state their set.

Mii players can only switch sets during the character switch choice.
-If the Mii player loses, he can indeed make sure his move choice is optimal. The mii player already lost, so there's not a big chance that switching moves will help much, especially if the opponent doesn't switch.
-If the Mii player wins, the opponent can counterpick the Mii player. This means that the Mii will have to settle with a more general set instead of an optimized one for the MU or possibly be stuck with a useless downB for example.

 

[19_]

When Mii players blindpick, they must state their set.

Mii players can only switch sets during the character switch choice.
-If the Mii player loses, he can indeed make sure his move choice is optimal. The mii player already lost, so there's not a big chance that switching moves will help much, especially if the opponent doesn't switch.
-If the Mii player wins, the opponent can counterpick the Mii player. This means that the Mii will have to settle with a more general set instead of an optimized one for the MU or possibly be stuck with a useless downB for example.

This really needs to be a thing that should be pushed. I know many mii fighters mains may complain but compromise is needed at this point.

Also, lets notice that helicopter kick on brawler is holding miis back. I know it is not broken but I wonder if it could changed in some way to make it seem less polarizing.

Jigglymaster Is there a way that downthow or helicopter kick can be changed so 50/50 Mii brawler's kill conform comes later rather than earlier? Since I know the Miis are being changed in patches asking nintendo for a "nerf" on the character could be helpful.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Helicopter Kick is fine. Tiny is what even makes the character good. 50/50 is only good because the character is never properly exposed enough.

What could actually be buffed instead is maybe Soaring Axe Kick, like idk. Make it properly combo into itself, grab while facing away from the ledge, and autosnap to the ledge.

If you want to change Brawler completely, you increase the knockback on his d-throw and one of his other throws. So you know, he has a kill throw but can't d-throw Up B anymore. Then he'll properly kill at higher percents like most other characters. Heck, just let him have a throw that kills at 150%. None of his throws currently even kill at 200+ percent.

Another poopy "default" move is head on assault. Why it doesn't break shields when Yoshis and Bowsers do is beyond me. Another thing that boggles me is that it buries the opponent in the ground instead of KO's them. Mii Brawler has nothing in his arsenal to follow up after the burial. It makes no sense.

XX11 has to be the two most dysfunctional standard moves I've ever seen. Give me something USABLE to work with and the character actually might be worth using.

Lets be real though, Nintendo is never going to fix any of this, I probably have a better chance at getting my favorite characters as DLC.

 

[wizrad]

If the burial worked like Lucas's d-throw (read: well), it would be great. HOA > Fsmash to kill? Yes, please.

Also, I could deal with 1111, 2222, 3333 if it meant we got sizes. Sizes have much more impact. I'd still rather my standard Mii idea, though.

 

[Raijinken]

If the burial worked like Lucas's d-throw (read: well), it would be great. HOA > Fsmash to kill? Yes, please.

Also, I could deal with 1111, 2222, 3333 if it meant we got sizes. Sizes have much more impact. I'd still rather my standard Mii idea, though.

As a player of all three Mii types, I've gotta say, I'd far prefer movesets over being stuck with default up-B moves for Brawler or Swordfighter. I could live with Gunner's.
In fact, I think the only Mii I like playing 1111 is Gunner >.<

 

[Jams.]

Someone in my community brought up an argument supporting a ban on all Mii characters in response to the "Mii alternate specials can be used with customs off" argument, and I wasn't sure how to address it. I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts.

His argument has to do with the unlocking process for Miis, which is unique among the cast. Instead of being unlocked by doing challenges or playing games, you "unlock" Miis by creating them. To create a Mii, you have to go into this menu, called "Custom."

Spoiler: Big Image

Since Miis must be created by going into this customs menu, he argues that the characters themselves are considered customs, and should be banned in a customs off ruleset.

 

[ZarroTsu]

And you have to "unlock" other characters and stages too, I hear.

 

[19_]

Someone in my community brought up an argument supporting a ban on all Mii characters in response to the "Mii alternate specials can be used with customs off" argument, and I wasn't sure how to address it. I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts.

His argument has to do with the unlocking process for Miis, which is unique among the cast. Instead of being unlocked by doing challenges or playing games, you "unlock" Miis by creating them. To create a Mii, you have to go into this menu, called "Custom."

Spoiler: Big Image

Since Miis must be created by going into this customs menu, he argues that the characters themselves are considered customs, and should be banned in a customs off ruleset.

People wanting to outright ban Mii fighters is not surprise to me. At least people saying this are honest about not giving a **** about Mii mains.

In fact, I won't be surprised this becomes standard, mainly because 1111 miis are pretty much non existant anyways (with the exception of trella, wonder what he would think of this).

 

[Jams.]

And you have to "unlock" other characters and stages too, I hear.

The point is, unlocking Miis requires going into a specific menu called "Custom." I don't see this argument being that different from other arguments based on game settings, such as Miis being allowed their other specials with customs off or having a separate setting from customs in tournament mode.

 

[wizrad]

An action having valid reasons does not make the action itself valid...

 

[Raijinken]

The point is, unlocking Miis requires going into a specific menu called "Custom." I don't see this argument being that different from other arguments based on game settings, such as Miis being allowed their other specials with customs off or having a separate setting from customs in tournament mode.

Unlocking Smashville requires single-player content clearing that takes several minutes. Unlocking DLC characters requires an internet connection, money, AND can't actually even be done directly in Smash 4 (on the U version, works in the 3DS version though). Having full access to all Omega Stages requires you to play (or let the game time out through) three full rounds of Smash Tour.

It's an irrelevant argument that only holds weight to people who want to use it against something. And, nobody uses "You have to set it up through the Custom menu" as an argument against customs (especially since you don't if you transfer from the 3DS, a fact that incidentally works for Miis as well). People have plenty of their own reasons for hating whatever they hate, but in the end most of the anti-customs/anti-mii people are having to fall back on "I don't find it fun and people don't play unfun rulesets" as their only functional (and also not competitively nor objectively grounded) argument.

This really needs to be a thing that should be pushed. I know many mii fighters mains may complain but compromise is needed at this point.

Also, lets notice that helicopter kick on brawler is holding miis back. I know it is not broken but I wonder if it could changed in some way to make it seem less polarizing.

Jigglymaster Is there a way that downthow or helicopter kick can be changed so 50/50 Mii brawler's kill conform comes later rather than earlier? Since I know the Miis are being changed in patches asking nintendo for a "nerf" on the character could be helpful.

People who sincerely complain about Helicopter Kick kill confirms yet don't complain about Sheik and Zamus having similar confirms with fewer DI escapes are either ignorant, hypocritical, or both, and should not be taken seriously.

That move is the subject of so much blatant ignorance that it's painful.

 

[Pegasus Knight]

Someone in my community brought up an argument supporting a ban on all Mii characters in response to the "Mii alternate specials can be used with customs off" argument, and I wasn't sure how to address it. I was wondering if anyone here had any thoughts.

His argument has to do with the unlocking process for Miis, which is unique among the cast. Instead of being unlocked by doing challenges or playing games, you "unlock" Miis by creating them. To create a Mii, you have to go into this menu, called "Custom." [/spoiler]

Since Miis must be created by going into this customs menu, he argues that the characters themselves are considered customs, and should be banned in a customs off ruleset.

Sure, I'll be glad to tear this line of thinking apart on multiple levels.

First off, your friend is rules-lawyering. 'Well, it SAYS Customs...!' is the kind of behavior that, if you pulled it at a typical Dungeons & Dragons table, would get you thrown out of the group for trying to apply super-literal ruling better suited to iron-clad contracts and courthouse proceedings to something that is supposed to be fun. He is acting in bad faith from the start.

Let's go further than that, though.

Next is the matter of 'conservation of menu design.' The Miis, as 'build-a-character', make the most sense under the 'custom' listing. Sakurai could have added another menu heading labeled 'Build A Character', but why? This is just wasting work and menu layout space when sticking it under Custom is reasonably intuitive. Playing 'gotcha' games over which part of the menu it's listed in is disingenuous, because Sakurai did not design the menu based around foreseeing us having an argument over it!

Moving on.

If he wants to use the game's interface as the basis of his argument, I'll note the Character Select Screen contradicts him. The Miis remain, in full functionality (albeit with their Equipment being disabled, as it should be!) if you select Customs Off there. This is no accident. That Equipment is turned off, but their specially defined sizes and chosen moves remain, is clear evidence Sakurai thought about this situation and decided that a 'competitive Mii' is one that has no benefits from Equipment but retains their other unique aspects... just as Rosalina retains her unique puppet, and Little Mac retains his armored smashes, in Customs Off play.

In quick summary, your fellow player is rules-lawyering. He is making bizarre arguments based on menu layout. He is doing them in the face of clear game design decisions made by Sakurai as to what puts forth a fair, competition-oriented Mii Fighter. He is doing all these things in order to prevent fans of three interesting characters from having fun, and playing along with his 'gotcha game' of 'Well, they're in the CUSTOMS Menu' when the Customs Off button shows evidence of clear, intentional design in how it behaves is disappointing. He is arguing in favor of making the game less fun, and presenting no argument for how this ban based on semantics improves the game.

I am not impressed, and frankly upset with this community-mate for what they're doing. They are trying to take away my fun, when my fun is not hurting his fair and balanced 1 on 1 competitive fighting game in any way. Evo 2015 proves this.

 

[Pazx]

What's with this concern about Mii players changing moves mid set or mid tournament? That is a complete non-issue and I'm amazed I've seen it brought up so many times when the solution (to this non-existent problem) is so simple. Choosing a character involves choosing a moveset.

Game one:
Both players choose their characters simultaneously. That includes moveset. Can be blind pick, whatever.

Subsequent games:
Winner bans stage(s).
Loser picks stage.
Winner announces character INCLUDING MOVESET if applicable.
Loser announces character INCLUDING MOVESET if applicable.

19_

 

[wizrad]

I don't see any issues either, but I'm not familiar with the Evo ruleset, so I assumed it had something to do with that.

 

[san.]

What's with this concern about Mii players changing moves mid set or mid tournament? That is a complete non-issue and I'm amazed I've seen it brought up so many times when the solution (to this non-existent problem) is so simple. Choosing a character involves choosing a moveset.

Game one:
Both players choose their characters simultaneously. That includes moveset. Can be blind pick, whatever.

Subsequent games:
Winner bans stage(s).
Loser picks stage.
Winner announces character INCLUDING MOVESET if applicable.
Loser announces character INCLUDING MOVESET if applicable.

19_

People don't realize how screwed a Gunner would be if she blindpicked reflector/Psi magnet vs. Ike or Mario.

The most miis can really counterpick for if they're winning are stages. Brawler will occasionally switch to upB3 for short ceiling stages, but he loses a lot from that change.

 

[19_]

What's with this concern about Mii players changing moves mid set or mid tournament? That is a complete non-issue and I'm amazed I've seen it brought up so many times when the solution (to this non-existent problem) is so simple. Choosing a character involves choosing a moveset.

Game one:
Both players choose their characters simultaneously. That includes moveset. Can be blind pick, whatever.

Subsequent games:
Winner bans stage(s).
Loser picks stage.
Winner announces character INCLUDING MOVESET if applicable.
Loser announces character INCLUDING MOVESET if applicable.

19_

Honestly I'm not against Mii being able to counterpick sets, but I am really keen on playing devils advocate and trying to make compromises.

Look, anti-mii's are not going to budge in the manner the way we are talking about this. Talking people down won't solve ANYTHING because just like customs it will be dismissed as the minority/reddit/ect. whining again. I don't care what way mii's get full access to there moves, just letting people play there character is good enough for me.

My argument is not only about making Mii freedom happen, it is also about having it stay. May I ask everyone for free miis: How can you make this work? Because if you don't have an answer than miis will be banned.

PSA to all Mii fighter players....

Shut up and pick a real character <3

— MVD(Free Agent) (@MVD731) August 14, 2015

Find a way to change this before you even think about anything else.

@Thinkaman @ChiboSempai John12346 @SmashCapps

 

[san.]

I don't think there's any way to appeal to someone who believes you don't play a real character, so there's no point in trying. Easiest way is to speak to people in person.