Noob Sheik Issues

[VinuJ]

Firstly, I am about a month old to smash and I only started playing in smash 4. But I decided to jump straight into the competitive scene. I am playing on a 3DS and I have learnt the most useful of the advanced techniques for Sheik so far BUT I never manage to pull them off. One thing is, whenever I try to combo anything from a grab, the person air dodges. Also, how do I get round all lasers and samus' projectiles?! It is extremely annoying. I also often SD with accidentally doing a down air OR side B instead of up B for recovery. I know Sheik has a steep learning curve but what is the best way to practice these things? Like are there certain drills I could do in practice mode? Finally, baiting....I have seen it in videos and commentators always say "dat bait tho" or "dem reads" but I have no idea how to do any of these with Sheik. I know side smash is one of Sheik's better KO moves and so how would I bait the opponent into a position where I can side smash them?

TL:DR
- What kind of drills to do for: Up B, Short Hopping, Fast Falling, Baiting, Reading? (I can the AT's but not regularly)
- How to get round lasers and other similar projectiles?
- Newer player, excuse my noobness

This is my first post on the forums, extremely sorry if this is either too vague or anything else I may have done wrong!
I have seen False play Sheik and my GAWD, I need to learn how to play like that

 

[Jackson]

ATs require practice to get down. Keep doing them. Once you don't miss them in real matches, you're good.

Luckily, techniques in this game generally (not always) are much easier to get down then techniques in Melee or things like Sheik's DACUS in Brawl. Keep at it.

 

[MarioMan01]

As jackson has said, just keep practicing ATs until it becomes usable in battle. This applies to pretty much anything non-read related, including short hops, b-reversals, etc.

For baiting, its more about reading your opponent and when/how they respond to your attacks and grabs. For instance, a ganon player may use side b when off the edge while recovering to try to ganoncide you. You can then make it seem as though you are going for it to bait the side, and follow up with a grenade, side smash, or BF depending on what height he's at. This is applicable to pretty much all characters and players. The key is to take note of patterns, and abuse them.

As far as projectiles, Sheiks run-to-shield is great for approaching neutral spammers (such as mario or luigi).
Bouncing Fish is also a great way to surprise your opponents as well as hop over projectiles, although you need to be a bit closer for it to be effective
needles are nice when fighting characters that charge a shot, such as samus or lucario. a single needle can undo the whole charge if it lands. Just try not to spam too much or they might catch on.
Sponge nade is useful in close proximity as well

As far as SD'ing, its easy to slip up and have the circle pad be slightly too far and mess up. the most you can do to remedy this is to practice being more precise with circle pad directions.

 

[_Tree]

Drills: The best stuff to practice in the lab is technical things like Short-hopping and Fast-falling. The best way to do this is to put on a podcast or youtube video, and just devote a day or two a week to just doing the same thing over and over again in training mode. Fast-falling and Short-hopping will eventually become muscle memory before long. Use this training regime for other stuff as well, such as B-reverse slide cancelling and the like.

Projectiles: Your character is incredibly fast and mobile, so weaving around projectiles is your forte. A simple but effective method is to do quick full-hops or double jumps to close in on your opponent and come in with an aerial. Sheik's crouch is also pretty low, so you should be able to duck and crawl under most projectiles as well. Finally, you're in possession of probably one of the best anti-projectile moves in the game: Bouncing fish. Throwing that out should take you right over a missile and let you plant your feet right in the opponent's jugular vein. Of course, reading your opponent comes into using BF as well. Don't just throw it out mindlessly, hoping it will hit. Anticipate when your opponent will use a projectile, so you can flip over the move just as they use, securing the hit.

Newer player: Welcome to the Sheik boards! We're a friendly bunch around here, so feel free to contribute or ask a question (in the proper area of course). We'd be happy to answer. A few of us do critiques as well, so if you want advice on your play, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JJBXWs6y-gE

 

[WondrousMoose]

If years of piano have taught me anything, it's that if your goal is to do this, you start by playing those first four notes really slowly. Then you play them again. And again. and again.

If you want to play competitively, the most important thing that you can have is experience. When it comes to mastering advanced techniques (and more basic ones, for that matter), Training Mode is your best friend. I've only been playing Smash for a few months, and when I started out I couldn't short hop to save my life (often literally ). Of course, Sheik short hops all the time, so I made myself get 5 short hops in a row, and if I messed up at all, I'd start over the count. Over time I got better with it and now go for 20-30 in a row, often throwing in aerials.

You just need to set goals for yourself and motivate yourself to get better. Find little issues like the ones that you mentioned in your post, and focus on them for a while in Training. Use up-B and down-B a ton to get used to the direction and distance they cover. For projectiles, understand that you can actually crouch under a lot of them (@ _Tree made a great video on that which covers everything she can avoid, including most of Samus' projectiles).

Edit: Wow, @ _Tree has already responded before I finished typing this. So yeah, do what I said about what he said. Yeah.

As for reads and baiting, your best bet is to get experience playing with other players in-person. The fighter NPCs are great for some training, but they react in very unrealistic ways, especially at higher levels. This will also give you opportunities to get first-hand advice from those who have been playing for years.

Most importantly, remember to have fun. If you make improving a chore, you'll hate it and will eventually quit playing. Make little games for yourself, like only fighting with Bouncing Fish and Vanish or trying to keep away from level 9 NPCs for a 2-minute match. Also, use the resources all over YouTube and Smash Boards, and just watch/read a lot.

If you do it right, you have no choice but to get better.

 

[_Tree]

If years of piano have taught me anything, it's that if your goal is to do this, you start by playing those first four notes really slowly. Then you play them again. And again. and again.

If you play an instrument VinuJ comparing it to Smash is actually a great way of putting technique practice in perspective. Nobody likes sitting on a piano and practicing scales over and over, or the painfully slow process of learning a piece. Likewise, sitting in the lab doing repetitive tech practice ain't any fun. But after hours of practice and dull monotony, hitting those keys on time and letting your fingers play on their own is nearly unrivaled in satisfaction. Something that comes close though is Smash, and putting all those techs, nuances and knowledge to work creates an on-screen interaction that is close to a symphony, and the euphoria that comes from an earned victory is extraordinary.

Playing piano for a few years has taught me that, and new players should do well to remember that while the practice can often seem insurmountable, the payoff is more than worth the lab time.

 

[alightbulb]

I just outspeed them and annoy them with needles... That works pretty well

 

[Wasserwipf]

If you play an instrument VinuJ comparing it to Smash is actually a great way of putting technique practice in perspective. Nobody likes sitting on a piano and practicing scales over and over, or the painfully slow process of learning a piece. Likewise, sitting in the lab doing repetitive tech practice ain't any fun. But after hours of practice and dull monotony, hitting those keys on time and letting your fingers play on their own is nearly unrivaled in satisfaction. Something that comes close though is Smash, and putting all those techs, nuances and knowledge to work creates an on-screen interaction that is close to a symphony, and the euphoria that comes from an earned victory is extraordinary.

Playing piano for a few years has taught me that, and new players should do well to remember that while the practice can often seem insurmountable, the payoff is more than worth the lab time.

While I do agree with the instrument playing stuff, I have to say that is not true for everyone, or let's say, there are better learning methods for some... Well, here's how I learned the basics and quite a few of the techs. Styling.
When I started competetive Smash (I started with brawl competitivly...) I coudn't do a single tech. However, my training partner was as bad as me, so it didn't really concern me. Then, whenever I got a kill (or a break from battle) I would try to do all that fancy stuff people in YT vids do (Shff ing was the first). I would just sh nair ff all over the place whenever I could (was playing marth, back then with no lag, so it was pretty stylisch). Over time, it kinda worked itself into my playstyle and became natural movement. I was able to do it this way since I had alot of fun playing, and I enjoy showing off a bit. Same with Dashdancing (yes, DD is useful in both brawl and Sm4sh) and over time, it almost became my signature move (or well, my DD-foxtrott-RAR mixups, and of course, local community...). I did the same with Wavedashing in P:M, worked out perfectly fine.

TLDR What I want to say with this, to me it mattered alot being able to play and figuring stuff out while doing so, since that was optimal time using, I got to play, I got to practice and it was alot of fun so I was able to stick to it. I can't say this'll work for anyone, but I believe it's something worth trying out.

On a sidenote, as for playing instruments, I played guitar for like 7 years, went to courses and stuff, did all the basics etc, but it just didn't work out. However, I bought an E-Bass a year ago and leaned it on my on, watching YT videos and trying the most fancy stuff. Funny thing, I can pull of that stuff now, I can play pretty properly. Then and again, I often notice how much of the basics I lack (I can't string-mute at all).

@ VinuJ As for the recovering issues, there one thing that relly helps. Calm down, focus. Vanish Takes forever to activate. In addition to that, no matter where you're stick is, the initional of vanish will always go straight up (except glides or you got hit before but thats already pretty advanced). So when inputting vanish, make sure your stick points straight up. AFTER you see it activated, angle the stick to the necessary direction. Practise that, whenever using Vanish remind yourself "Stick first up, then angle". You should get used to it pretty quickly. Same goes for Boucing fish, where you don't gain much from pre angling your stick (of course, you can enlengthen and shorten, or even reverse it but again ,thats pretty advanced.) Also, for Bouncing fish, make sure to use the Attack / A key if you want to kick early, or use the second kick. With this, you make sure to not Side-B after BF (if anything, you'll just fair...).

Last note, baiting and reads are super hard and often require you to understand your character pretty good already (as in, what does it matter if you read the roll, if you have no clue how to punish). Ok, that goes hand in hand, but still. This is something lvl 9 CPUs are actually pretty useful. Techskill practice. Since you can't read a CPU, you have to rely on you techskill in order to beat them (ok, even the CPU have silly patterns that you can figure out but thats usually not worth long-term wise).

 

[Uncertain Title]

I can't really say anything that hasn't been said. I mainly use Zelda, and picked up Shiek in the past couple of months. Their playstyles are EXTREMELY different, and it did take me a while to finally start getting good. And since Robin and Zelda are both slow and their moves have quite a bit of ending lag, I know how you feel. It's a bit weird going from slow to a character that's agile and fast.

As previously stated by other Smash players, Bouncing Fish works wonders against projectiles. Also, her crouch let's her duck under most of them too. It's extremely useful against players who like to spam their projectiles, like Falco. There are a few she can't duck under, though, so try testing it out.

For fast falling and short hopping, I practiced in training for a little bit until I could do it consistently, and now I just try to do it as much as I can during matches so I can get used to using it when under pressure.

I don't really have anything to add to what's been said about Vanish. Like I said, I use Zelda a lot, and since their moves are mechanically similar, it didn't take long for me to adapt. Their recoveries do have a bit of starting lag, though, so practice a bit so you get used to inputting the direction DURING the startup rather than before or after. Eventually, you'll be able to perform it effortlessly even under competitive pressure

 

[VinuJ]

Thanks to everyone! All of this has helped, I'm going to go take it on board, better get training!

Newer player: Welcome to the Sheik boards! We're a friendly bunch around here, so feel free to contribute or ask a question (in the proper area of course). We'd be happy to answer.

Thanks! I will try and get some visible footage of me playing later on!

Last note, baiting and reads are super hard and often require you to understand your character pretty good already (as in, what does it matter if you read the roll, if you have no clue how to punish). Ok, that goes hand in hand, but still. This is something lvl 9 CPUs are actually pretty useful. Techskill practice. Since you can't read a CPU, you have to rely on you techskill in order to beat them (ok, even the CPU have silly patterns that you can figure out but thats usually not worth long-term wise).

Ok, thanks! I will master the advanced tech till I can do it in battle first. Also, False and Keitaro just came out with a reads video on their Rush Hour Smash channel, what timing!

 

[WondrousMoose]

Oh, how did I not already mention this?

Replays. Record your games and re-watch them, whether you won or not. Watch yourself and notice little ways in which you performed well or poorly in the match. Professional athletes do this, so hey, why wouldn't you?

 

[Othayuni]

I wanna comment on read theory a little bit since it's hard to understand. Almost all of competitive smash is reads. Tech and skill are just what let you make finer reads faster or obscure your own body language/positioning/timing and throw off their ability to read. Reads are defined as predicting an opponent's behavior and using it to exploit the correct weakness in whatever they're doing. Talking about it that way, it seems as though readers have tremendous foresight. Maybe we do, but I gotta tell you everything happens so fast that most of it feels like either reflex, or just throwing out an educated tactic that we have no idea if it will work but works sometimes and feels reasonable to try. Reads are your instinctive sense of what "works" or "might work". Therefore, reads primarily come from experience. Your best friend for learning to read will be meeting characters that kick your ass and losing but retrying ad nauseum and trying to figure out how to win. You'll probably learn to "read" naturally as you become more proficient at covering your openings and exploiting theirs. Keep in mind it has to be done with every character individually for the most part. Take triple caution with characters you don't know. I hope this demystifies it a little!

edit: typos and phrasing

 

[VinuJ]

I wanna comment on read theory a little bit since it's hard to understand. Almost all of competitive smash is reads. Tech and skill are just what let you make finer reads faster or obscure your own body language/positioning/timing and throw off their ability to read. Reads are defined as predicting an opponent's behavior and using it to exploit the correct weakness in whatever they're doing. Talking about it that way, it seems as though readers have tremendous foresight. Maybe we do, but I gotta tell you everything happens so fast that most of it feels like either reflex, or just throwing out an educated tactic that we have no idea if it will work but works sometimes and feels reasonable to try. Reads are your instinctive sense of what "works" or "might work". Therefore, reads primarily come from experience. Your best friend for learning to read will be meeting characters that kick your *** and losing but retrying ad nauseum and trying to figure out how to win. You'll probably learn to "read" naturally as you become more proficient at covering your openings and exploiting theirs. Keep in mind it has to be done with every character individually for the most part. Take triple caution with characters you don't know. I hope this demystifies it a little!

edit: typos and phrasing

Ahh thanks, that makes sense. Experience is key!

 

[VinuJ]

Oh, how did I not already mention this?

Replays. Record your games and re-watch them, whether you won or not. Watch yourself and notice little ways in which you performed well or poorly in the match. Professional athletes do this, so hey, why wouldn't you?

Thanks for the idea! I will record them, its not so obvious that you have to press Y to save a replay is it ;P

 

[Phoenix502]

it's even less obvious online where pressing X at the results screen provides options toward your opponent, viewing their profile, then deciding whether to block or friend request...

 

[NightOvvl]

Hello Everyone, i'm new here, new to SSB 3DS and i choose Sheik as my main.
i've been stalking this forum for the past week and decided to pitch in

one of the issues i'm having is that sometimes i get juggled in the air and however i choose to land i keep getting interrupted this is especially coming from Derpton Falcon and his long range kick smash, it's also trouble when i try to counter in the air -playing against lv.9 falcon in training and he always get the hit even though i'm using the Down kick. any ideas what i'm doing wrong?

 

[_Tree]

Hello Everyone, i'm new here, new to SSB 3DS and i choose Sheik as my main.
i've been stalking this forum for the past week and decided to pitch in

one of the issues i'm having is that sometimes i get juggled in the air and however i choose to land i keep getting interrupted this is especially coming from Derpton Falcon and his long range kick smash, it's also trouble when i try to counter in the air -playing against lv.9 falcon in training and he always get the hit even though i'm using the Down kick. any ideas what i'm doing wrong?

Yo, welcome to the boards NightOvvl.

Getting out of a juggle and back onto the ground depends on the current circumstances, as you need to choose the right option for the situation. I'll cover both mid-air and on-ground retaliation. If the opponent is intercepting you BEFORE you land, then you either need to A) Time your airdodge so you aren't hit by the attack, or B) Throw out a move of your own to hit them before they hit you. Whichever option you choose generally depends on your opponent's habits, as some will be proficient at punishing airdodges, while others will generally attack you with very high priority moves. Airdodging often allows aversion of a skirmish altogether, allowing you to return the match pace to neutral and catch your breath. Executing an aerial such as Nair or Fair can allow you to direct the match in your favor however, as you will become on the offensive. This requires more insight and better judgement though. It's your call on what to use.

If your opponent is waiting for you to land and then punishing you, then you need to make sure to you aren't landing with overly-laggy moves. Airdodging to avoid a move is great, but don't do it too close to the ground if you have other options. Airdodging while landing will put you into 22 frames of lag, which is a great opportunity for your opponent to attack. Likewise, don't get back to the ground with D-air. Sure, the move shoots you towards the ground pretty quickly, but it's landing lag makes you very vulnerable. Probably the best option for landing it to simply empty land. There's minimal landing lag, and once you land you'll have the option to dodge or shield, which are the two best defensive options and can prevent punishes. I'd recommend learning how to fastfall on a whim to help get you to the ground quickly.

It's 5 AM where I am now and I need to sleep, so that's what I'm writing up for now. If you have any questions though please ask away.

 

[NightOvvl]

Hi _Tree I watched some of your videos, appreciate the input.

I've just learnt about air dodging life is easier now but there are some techniques I've been seeing on videos of Sheik gameplay by False such as the small jump and downwards kick (nair?) -sorry I'm not cought up on the SSB terms- and other things such as perfect pivoting and reverse B cancel which seems necessary for a Sheik player, and my question is, are they possible on 3DS? And how dangerous is the input for the stick? I usually play fighting games with the dpad but it's not possible here :X

 

[_Tree]

are they possible on 3DS? And how dangerous is the input for the stick? I usually play fighting games with the dpad but it's not possible here :X

Anything that doesn't require the C-stick can be done on the 3DS. Would I recommend pushing your 3DS circle pad to pull off all this stuff? ...Not really. Smash is the main culprit for breaking people's circle pads. I played it relatively safe with mine and I still managed to make the rubber cover fall off.
You can still play a decent Sheik without stuff like B-reversing however. Stuff like fast-falling, stringing moves together etc won't really impact the circle pad durability. Just save all the fancy stuff for a gamecube controller. Perfect pivoting on the 3DS will bust your circle pad up pretty badly.

 

[BlastHappyNinja]

Pew pew lazers? It varies. Sheik can duck under certain things. Fox's lazer doesn't really pose a threat for example; you can just crouch under it and crawl over to him and punish, which is rather fun to do. Samus's projectiles, aside from a fully charged charge shot, are generally slow. Sheik has no trouble jumping over them/ pulling off aerial needles against a campy Samus. I suppose that it all depends on the character.

Fast-falling and shorthopping are generally things that you just have to go into training mode and do on your own free time. I sat down for a good hour at Apex and just practiced shorthopping the day before the tournament: it helped out a lot. Even if it's just for an hour a day, go into training mode and practice these advanced techniques. Baiting and reading should come naturally if you have someone else to practice with. It's all about mindgames. Try mixing up your follow-ups after approaching with a shorthop for starters, f-air or an empty shorthop, or even a grab when you land. It's all about mixups to throw your opponent off.

 

[NightOvvl]

@ BlastHappyNinja Fast falling I get but the length the character must reach to execute is far longer so i think it's shorthopping that I'm looking for. What is the input for that ? And is there something like a jump cancel involved? @ _Tree I want to enjoy the game but I'd rather still have my 3Ds working for others I'll take your word for it

[edit]
looked that up, it's a light X press... better than what i expected, i've always pushed it all the way >_<

 

[WondrousMoose]

@ BlastHappyNinja Fast falling I get but the length the character must reach to execute is far longer so i think it's shorthopping that I'm looking for. What is the input for that ? And is there something like a jump cancel involved? @ _Tree I want to enjoy the game but I'd rather still have my 3Ds working for others I'll take your word for it

[edit]
looked that up, it's a light X press... better than what i expected, i've always pushed it all the way >_<

It has nothing to do with how hard you press it, as it's a digital input. You short hop when you press the button really quickly.

 

[NightOvvl]

It has nothing to do with how hard you press it, as it's a digital input. You short hop when you press the button really quickly.

Yeah, i probabely meant in duration, and it's really really quickly. I'm not a proud owner of a Wii u yet but if anything I'll be glad to be able to practice all Sheik's AT if I get one. Every other character seems so slow.