Noir's Advance Technique/Reseach and Discussion.

[Flyingmonkey]

I wonder, if you could dash, and then jump and airdodge at the same time. The momentum would send the airdodge in an upwards direction at an angle, and you could dodge straight through an oncoming attack, and then punish their whiff with an aerial

 

[Libomasus]

Why is nobody answering my question? It doesn't seem like it's something hard to test. Just up B with Sonic and see if you can attack afterwards. If you can then up B from the ground again and see if you can attack on the way up. It's not a hard test to do, I just don't have access to brawl to do it myself.

I'm pretty sure you can only attack after you reach the peak height. I'm basing this on lots of videos I've seen. Sorry, guess you can't Up-B and Nair your way up. Would have been a cool lil' technique though.

 

[Crispy4001]

It's sort funny that everyone's whining in other threads about the 'absence of advanced tactics' whereas they're just ignoring this one.

Maybe it's for the better, considering this thread hasn't become derailed with off-topic and over-played casual vs hardcore debates.

 

[Lupo Aro]

Is there any use for crawling in competitive play?

 

[shanus]

It's sort funny that everyone's crying in other threads about the 'absence of advanced tactics' whereas they're just ignoring this one.

Maybe it's for the better, considering this thread hasn't become derailed with off-topic and over-played casual vs hardcore debates.

shhhh don't jinx it.

Can Olimar's pikmin throws be directionalized? I.e. tilted up/down or stuck in that one direction? Also have you tried edgeteching any hits yet? (i.e. training mode having marth just try and edgeguard you repeatedly as fox or something and tried and walltech the edge)

Also, since I imagine your starting to get the hang out of the DD timing, are you able to reproduce the ink drop when you want to? If you can get the timing down, can you trip and then instantly go into a roll or techroll?

 

[Artanisix]

Wowow. RAR is huge.

 

[User33]

Great, Falco's SHL video almost gave me a virus, if it wasn't for my protection software.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm pretty sure you can only attack after you reach the peak height. I'm basing this on lots of videos I've seen. Sorry, guess you can't Up-B and Nair your way up. Would have been a cool lil' technique though.

Naw, I was thinking about this really cool edgeguard. I'd go to the edge and up B to let the spring fall down, then I'd dair to cancel the up B, then I'd jump cancel the dair->land, and do it again.

That reminds me, can Sonic still jump cancel his dair like he could in the demo?

And if you leave a spring with your up B and somebody tech rolls into it, will they bounce too.

 

[Crispy4001]

Going back to this GIF:

I think using it like this near the ledge could be a huge deal. In Melee, you could only give yourself so much momentum when you wanted swat someone back with a back-air. But with this, I bet you could make it out even further, bringing the edgeguarding game further AWAY from the ledge.


Of course, the flying characters already were doing that before this video. Perhaps this could be a way for those only with the stardard jumps to be agressive in the same manner.

 

[Fizz-sama]

No wonder I saw the lag of Ike's fair at times being shortened. I thought it had to do with just landing at the right time. However, I wonder if the attack can still connect...

 

[greenblob]

It's sort funny that everyone's whining in other threads about the 'absence of advanced tactics' whereas they're just ignoring this one.

Maybe it's for the better, considering this thread hasn't become derailed with off-topic and over-played casual vs hardcore debates.

You also don't want Nintendo to find out and change it in future versions/patches.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Postan tiem.

I'd say throw in an extra W, "Reverse Aerial Winning Rush", so we could have a nice RAWR going on

I guess if RAR sounds better, then sure, but it sounds like guilty gear stuff haha.

Noir- Would you mind using Peach and trying to JBT (or RAR, w/e) into a float, then a Bair almost instantly...? Also, were you peach-literate in melee?

Yea, that works. And yes, I think I can use peach decently in melee. I could float cancel n' crap. Her Dsmash is definitely weaker now to no surprise.

BTW, in boss rush mode, use Peach. Float Dairs then use Peach Bomber x__x. (Peach bomber has much more range + rises her pretty high on a hit)

So wait, you're sure nobody can djc? I swear I've seen several movies where Ness and Peach used a DJC effectively. I was also told that Peach could still float cancel...

If this is true, then I apologise for what I said earlier.

Well, I have the game, and so far no DJCing for anyone. And peach can't float cancel. Maybe it just looks like it because her aerials have very little lag / auto-canceling(landing right when the aerial attack starts).

Great finds and great vids!

Im wondering what are your impressions so far on snake? He seems alot diffrent from most of the other characters so far. Any info would be great really.

I don't like him, but my friend seemed to fair pretty well with him against my ROB, and I think ROB is a good character. Maybe he just got lucky? I'm not sure, I have to test moar.

No djc is automatically a bad thing for Lucas and Ness...what actually happens instead? Do they just continue along their curved jump paths? It may be possible to turn this loss into a win if they can attack effectively this way.

Concerning Fox's up b. Does it start "burning" sooner? As in, if you activate it right next to an opponent, does it start doing damage sooner than it did in Melee?

On top of that, is it still possible to do the "levitating Firefox trick?"

1. Yea, the continue along their curved jump path. Watch : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URRciCDt9dU

2. I think so. This is also true with Falco's.

So, how do you feel about Ike? It looks to me (from videos) that he's a tough customer in a 1 on 1 despite being one of the slower characters.

Moves come out very slow, but he's very strong and has very good range. Jab A combo is very crucial.

Does anyone know of a write up about the new air dodge? All I know is that it's different, and I'm super curious >.<

Maybe we can find some techniques that take advantage of it.

Go to GimpyFish's topic. He has lots of basic and interesting game mechanic explanations.

Can you please check the Sonic thing? I want to know how quickly Sonic can attack after his up B, since he was the only character described to have that feature. Can he attack right in the middle of it? Does he have to wait till the peak? Does the spring hold the same properties if other characters bounce on it?

Not sure. I think you can attack at the peak though.

*AWESOME IDEA INCOMING*

Does Ganondorf's Uair still reverse spike?

If so, try using it after a JBT/RAR
This will be so awesome if it works.

Yes, it does, I've tried it.

Hey Noir Can you PLEASE try to find a video of Samus Bomb Recovery...

I don't think I'll find one, but I'll make one.

Juicy, good stuff man.

Is that supposed to be an example of the backwards jumping (FTB, RAR) thing?

Is dash canceling still in?

Did the downward auto ledge grabs (Fox, Falco, Sheik, etc... recovery moves) get taken out?

1. Yes

2. No

3. No

With the "Jump back towards" tecnique

I dash towards opponent.

Quickly turn around and then hit the jump

And attack backwards?

Pretty much

Gif of Foxtrotting

hot

RAR + WoP = Pwnage?

Anyway, I'm especially curious about combos. Do standard Melee combos such as utilt chains, aerial chains, stupidly easy Sheik combos, etc. still work? Are there any new combos?

Uhhh, to an extent. It's a whole new game, so that's such a broad topic. And of course there are new combos!

I wonder, if you could dash, and then jump and airdodge at the same time. The momentum would send the airdodge in an upwards direction at an angle, and you could dodge straight through an oncoming attack, and then punish their whiff with an aerial

For the "Rising Dash" thread, I'm the one who even supplied pictures for that thread.

IMO it's not reliable. You can just regularly jump instead.

Is there any use for crawling in competitive play?

Probably not. I guess to go under SHLs, but... yea...

 

[Piratey_Critter]

*AWESOME IDEA INCOMING*

Does Ganondorf's Uair still reverse spike?

If so, try using it after a JBT/RAR
This will be so awesome if it works.

Haha, good idea!

That would be sick.

 

[greenblob]

Maybe I should've been more specific. When I mean "combos," I mean "something between ~50% and death."

 

[joenopride]

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but could you experiment with "wall cling" or whatever it's called supposedly characters like Lucario can hold on to walls?

 

[Lance87]

Noir- Would you mind demonstrating an attempt to directional influence after being hit by a move that sends you straight up (just to make it easier to notice)? Doing it once to show no DI, and another time to show it with DI? I'm not sure I've seen any vids where it was noticeable...

 

[shadydentist]

Any info on powershielding?

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Maybe I should've been more specific. When I mean "combos," I mean "something between ~50% and death."

Well, I've only had the game for like 3 days... But oddly enough I can tell you some killing combos.

Metaknight - Fair enemy off the stage, finish with reverse Up B

Toon Link - Short hopped Bairs x 5 (shuffle the last one), Full jump Bair, double jump Bair, UpB (0%-70%-90%, possibly death)

Rob - Fair your heart out. Continue with Up B to Fair.

I'm not sure if this has been asked, but could you experiment with "wall cling" or whatever it's called supposedly characters like Lucario can hold on to walls?

You can infinitely wall cling, jump off, then wall cling to where you first wall clung.

Noir- Would you mind demonstrating an attempt to directional influence after being hit by a move that sends you straight up (just to make it easier to notice)? Doing it once to show no DI, and another time to show it with DI? I'm not sure I've seen any vids where it was noticeable...

I did make a vid on DI. I should post it.

Any info on powershielding?

Haven't deflected any projectiles with the shield lately. I have to test that moar.

 

[The Great Leon]

Re: DI
in one of the space animal vids, someone di's right from a space animal up throw.

Re: Dark Sonic
i havent played sonic since e4all, but from what i remember when sonic up-b's he gets stuck in a looking up animation until his upward momentum wears off. in other words, the peak of the jump.

Re: naming the JBT/RAR
why not just stay simple and call it a forward backair?

 

[greenblob]

Well, I've only had the game for like 3 days... But oddly enough I can tell you some killing combos.

Metaknight - Fair enemy off the stage, finish with reverse Up B

Toon Link - Short hopped Bairs x 5 (shuffle the last one), Full jump Bair, double jump Bair, UpB (0%-70%-90%, possibly death)

Rob - Fair your heart out. Continue with Up B to Fair.

Nice, thanks for the info. Hopefully you won't be able to escape from too many combos.

 

[Eaode]

Re: DI
in one of the space animal vids, someone di's right from a space animal up throw.

Re: Dark Sonic
i havent played sonic since e4all, but from what i remember when sonic up-b's he gets stuck in a looking up animation until his upward momentum wears off. in other words, the peak of the jump.

Re: naming the JBT/RAR
why not just stay simple and call it a forward backair?

JBT/JTB/RAR/RAWR/WinRAR isnt just a Bair, its simply the act of turning around when you jump and keeping momentum. you can do whatever you want after that, like Bair, Reverse Uair spikes (<3) or probably even edgehog easily (if hugging isn't already faster)

 

[Crispy4001]

Can't wait to see the DI video.

 

[Yeroc]

Or something like simply Reverse Jumping.

Alright, so the ground movement game is markedly similar to 64 in all respects except one: You say you have to do a bunch of weird stuff to get a turn around initial dash. Why? What's preventing you from just running the other way once you come to a standstill, or does it take ages to actually stop from an ID? If it's the tripping thing that's going to be extremely disappointing.

 

[Phyvo]

About the usefulness of crawling, I think I've seen a couple places in vids where people using characters with low crouches (like Snake or Kirby) could have just crouched and made the other guy whiff his aerial, since people are doing their SH aerials higher now to autocancel.

Better than shielding/spot dodging? Probably not. >.>

 

[ShumPenPo]

This is more of a character info request but, could you look at Olimar's pikmin and if then changing from BUDS-> LEAF -> FLOWER has any affect at all on dmg/knockback/effects?

 

[Andrew Ott]

I'd still say Reverse Dash Jump, cause it doesn't necessarily involve attacking, and it sounds more like Melee's old tech names a bit. =/

I see in some videos that the animations for Marth's upwards and downwards variations of side-b look different (up on the fourth swing looks like a no-jump dolphin slash?) Can you confirm this?

You say C. Falcon's Melee combos aren't working too well, and in my experience, in the transitions from SSB64 to Melee, if a character's SHFFL was nerfed, tilts to full jump aerials were better for combos (Pikachu, Kirby, their aerials got weaker), and vice versa (Link, Fox, their ground attacks got worse and now they mostly SHFFL). So if you're having trouble with characters, I'd try this as a second or third resort. A lack of L-cancelling also promotes staying in the air for a long time while keeping them from hitting you, which may be a reason why Marth still is decent (usually one would do an aerial at the beginning or the end of his jump, now we just cut out the end, and replace it with a land or double jump, etc (and he was one of the few Melee chars to have godly SHFFLs AND tilts...)).

Jump after air-dodge and backwards ledge grabs seem to help here as well. In Melee, approaching was super-important, but was normally done with REALLY fast SHFFLs to avoid punishment, or grabs. This is kinda why fast, long ranged characters seemed to be better in general the first two games I guess.

Brawl WAS balanced for heavy characters, so maybe approaching can be more like two people jumping at each other rather than crazy dash dance mindgames.

Everyone looks like they can be air-controlled more now too.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Kay, so does crouching still cancel the dash-stopping animation?

 

[greenblob]

SHFFL didn't exist in Smash 64 though...

For CF, his combos were mostly nair/uair chains with maybe a grab here or there--see if those work. I'm hoping that the King of Combos will still reign in Brawl.

 

[Andrew Ott]

I know SH and L-cancel were in 64, the only one I'm not sure about 100% is fast falling during aerial, but I'm pretty sure that was in too...

Either way, I mean "using a low aerial as an approach," and the most sensibly way to do that was to SH, and you'd want to L-cancel/FF to make it faster anyways.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Can't wait to see the DI video.

Coming up

This is more of a character info request but, could you look at Olimar's pikmin and if then changing from BUDS-> LEAF -> FLOWER has any affect at all on dmg/knockback/effects?

I'll test that out.

Or something like simply Reverse Jumping.

Alright, so the ground movement game is markedly similar to 64 in all respects except one: You say you have to do a bunch of weird stuff to get a turn around initial dash. Why? What's preventing you from just running the other way once you come to a standstill, or does it take ages to actually stop from an ID? If it's the tripping thing that's going to be extremely disappointing.

I think reverse jumping would be the best name for it. Not too complicated of a name and makes sense.

Anyways, you can't turn around regularly as fast as you can with the dash dance turn. But, this differs between characters. One character who doesn't really need the dash dance turn to do this is Lucario and somewhat Olimar. Everyone else is yea...

 

[Libomasus]

Naw, I was thinking about this really cool edgeguard. I'd go to the edge and up B to let the spring fall down, then I'd dair to cancel the up B, then I'd jump cancel the dair->land, and do it again.

I was thinking about this too actually, but without the Dair canceling. I don't think he JC's his Dair either, more like he goes down a certain amount then slowly jumps up by himself.

Does his bumper even hurt anybody on its way down?

 

[AshtonDragon]

Reverse Jumping looks pretty cool. I imagine that will be really useful for all kinds of stuff.

 

[Hmaal]

I have some question if thats okay?

Is their any kind of effects when dealing with Pkmn and their types?
Is it possible to go under a platform when sheilding like in SSB?

 

[LoserNumber2]

nice videos man

if you don't mind me asking, how are the stages, like the hazards on them, are any of them to crazy to even be played on?

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think the spring from Sonic's up B could hit people if you used it in the air. Too bad my fancy edgeguard won't work though. But At least I have an amazing tech chase.

Sonic's uair is one of his killing moves right? If it is then you could use your up B to tech chase, so that at the end of the tech the opponent follows you up and you can Uair them as you're comming back down. The height of the up B will make killing them pretty easy.

Now I just need a name for this. How about "DS Lock (Dark Sonic Lock)?"

I had read somewhere he could JC his dair, but it's not exactly the most reliable source. Would you mind testing that OoNoiRoO?

 

[Allin]

Hey can you test some spikes out for us :D

Marth's Dair-still there? gone? turned into meteor smash?

Lucario's D-air- Is it a spike or meteor smash?


Any i missed that could spike
also how hard is Reverse Jumping and Fox Trotting
Also sweet vid's :D

 

[Ced The Lad]

Uhh question. Is hugging still in the final version of the game? You know . . . you run off the edge of the platform yet by holding the direction towards the platform as you fall off you can grab the edge?

This seems like the viable replacement for the back-wavedash into the edge in order to edgeguard. I'm not sure how "advanced" this is per say, but it would still be very effective.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Uhh question. Is hugging still in the final version of the game? You know . . . you run off the edge of the platform yet by holding the direction towards the platform as you fall off you can grab the edge?

This seems like the viable replacement for the back-wavedash into the edge in order to edgeguard. I'm not sure how "advanced" this is per say, but it would still be very effective.

Yes. Hugging still works exactly as described at E 4 All. I've seen it plenty of times in vids.

 

[Dark Sonic]

@Allin-Marth's dair is still a spike, but it has less stun than in melee, so it's not as effective

@Ced The Lad- Yes, it's still in. You can see it being used in a couple of videos.

 

[Ced The Lad]

Cool thanks for the fast replies guys. Out of sheer luck none of the dozens of videos I've seen had anyone using that tech. Oh sure, I've seen plenty of videos with people recovering from under the stage and grabbing the edge at the opposite angle, but for some reason no hugging. And I couldn't just assume it was in because of the automatic recovery sweetspots.