Noir's Advance Technique/Reseach and Discussion.

[Dustero]

Great thread! I'm glad that you can now run and use your bair without slowing down.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

I heard Lucas can DJC, can you confirm this? Also heard that Ness can't.
Also wondering if you can still press A or B to attack while from a ledge, X/Y to jump higher from it, or L/R to roll immediately after getting off the ledge. I've seen people ledge hop, but was wondering if the other stuff is still there.
Can you also confirm if analog shielding is out too? (Holding L and R slightly harder in Melee was a stronger shield)

Lucas cannot DJC. No one can.

And yes, you can still do all that good stuff from ledges.

And yes, analog shielding is out =\

 

[Dark Sonic]

I think that's what pivoting is. It's the initial frames of the dash in which you can supposedly do any action.

Not exactly.

In melee, when you dash dance there is one frame between the dashes where your character is in the "standing" position. During that one frame you can input any command. This window can be expanded by simply putting in the command "walk" i.e having the control stick stay somewhere inbetween fully pressed and neutral. This is most easily done by dashing in one direction and the "flicking" the control stick in the other direction. The dash will be canceled and your character will simply stand (and turn do the turning around animation if no further action is inputed.) From this stand you can do any move, but note that you'll be facing the oposite direction as the one you dashed in.

That's pivoting in a nutshell, but with dash dancing so small, and the ability to cancel your dash with smashes, it's pretty much moot.

Can you check something for me? How quickly can you grab out of a fox trot (the standing grab not the dash grab.) Do you have to wait for the full animation to end or can you cancel you next dash with a grab (and get a standing grab)? If you can't then pivoting will still at least have one use.

 

[ph00tbag]

Wow, with JBT, Samus may actually not be crap.

How quickly can you grab out of a fox trot (the standing grab not the dash grab.) Do you have to wait for the full animation to end or can you cancel you next dash with a grab (and get a standing grab)?

I imagine you could still Jump Cancel? Or is that out, too?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Yes, jump canceling is out.

 

[Libomasus]

1. What do you mean?

2. You cannot waveland.

3. Haven't tried sonic too much, I'll have to test it.

1. By grab desyncs, I mean grabbing or attacking during a grab and inputting a command for Nana right after the attack is done to desync. You know, like Nana's Down-B on a grabbed opponent, while Popo attacks.

2.Uh, let me phrase it better. If I'm understanding this right, you can attack in a direction right before you land and you'll gain some momentum right? So can you maybe miss an aerial, but then use its momentum to cover more space while charging a smash?

Also, if your going to test Sonic, can you tell me if his recovery goes up slanted ceilings? Thanks for the info.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

1. By grab desyncs, I mean grabbing or attacking during a grab and inputting a command for Nana right after the attack is done to desync. You know, like Nana's Down-B on a grabbed opponent, while Popo attacks.

2.Uh, let me phrase it better. If I'm understanding this right, you can attack in a direction right before you land and you'll gain some momentum right? So can you maybe miss an aerial, but then use its momentum to cover more space while charging a smash?

Also, if your going to test Sonic, can you tell me if his recovery goes up slanted ceilings? Thanks for the info.

1. Oh, yes, certainly. I have already come up with a Grab combo. D-throw, Nana Fair, Popo Fsmash. 31% damage, works on everyone I'll assume, since I tried it on half the cast.

2. You do not gain momentum from landing from an aerial. So far, I haven't found any "technique" that's similar to wavedashing. I hope I do though, since it feels really crappy not being able to have total control over your character as you could in Melee.

 

[Help!]

Can you go back to my post and answer any of those questions? cuase you kinda just skipped em they were back on the 4th page.

 

[FightingGameGuy]

Since everyone is floatier, I was wondering if any more characters can use rising aerials (from the ground and/or mid-air jumps) to achieve a similar effect tot Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain?

Thanks for all your info and work.

 

[draigaran]

Aw man, I could live with no L-Cancel or WD, but no CC or JC or JC grabs? Crap. Ah well, I'll still love Brawl.

Thanks for posting this summary, it's very informative.

 

[Iceman12]

Noir, you and vx3 should bring your heads together to see what techs you can come up with. Havok physics seem like a tough ***** to crack, but they aren't perfect. If its made by humans, it can be exploited.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Since more everyone is floatier, I was wondering if more anymore characters can use rising aerials (from the ground and/or mid-air jumps) to achieve a similar effect tot Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain?

Thanks for all your info and work.

Marth probably can use his fair.

And can you still attack directly out of or after Sonic's up B? If so, at what point can you do the attack?

 

[Aftermath]

So it seems as though even with L-canceling out, auto-canceling is in. It's done by landing when there isn't a hit box for the move out (ie. the beginnng or end). You've confirmed that it works for the beginning of the move, does it work for the end as well?

It might be that instead of having control over canceling the lag we'll just have to get good at spacing and learning the timing for all the aerials and fallspeeds.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Wave land from E 4 All is not the air dodge land. it's stuff like Mario's b air when landing and it slides him back wards a bit. I think it was also mentions that boozer and peach could do it too. So if you could try that kind of stuff that would be nice and i like the jump backward forward thing. Think you could give some impressions on Mario though? I wanna hear some stuff on him havnt much about him past Gimpy's impressions or at least if he can still do up air blinds and a confirmation on whether or not you can do nuetral b turn around in the air.

It'd be nice if you structured this more x__x

anyways

1. Landing with Mario's Bair does not slide him anywhere. If it does, the movement is nothing notable.

2. Mario's a pretty good character. Spammin' those Bairs. I don't see why people are saying he's godly good though.

3. You can do reverse neutral Bs. Since when was this a problem?

4. Up air blinds? what's that?

So it seems as though even with L-canceling out, auto-canceling is in. It's done by landing when there isn't a hit box for the move out (ie. the beginnng or end). You've confirmed that it works for the beginning of the move, does it work for the end as well?

I think so. I'll have to test it out more. EX: Shuffling Wolf's Fair gets him mean lag, but simply short hopping and doing the attack as soon as possible then regularly landing does not get him any landing lag.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Good job on finding this stuff.

As for suggestions:

Think you can give Edge Canceling some moves a shot? Like Lucario's Bv, or other slow moving attacks?
-DD

 

[shortwanabelaker]

can u explain glide mechanics.. is there glide canceling, can u attack while glinding.. and so on

 

[Dark Sonic]

Mostly edge cancelling. And please check the Sonic thing. I want to know who quickly Sonic can attack after starting his up B. Those two things are very important for an edgeguard I've been thinking about lately. If it works I might even get to name it! That and I want to know if it will be usefull on the stage.

And after that I've got one more Sonic related thing for you to test. If a person tech rolls into a spring left by Sonic's up B will they bounce? If so then I've just found one of the coolest techchases in the game.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Good job on finding this stuff.

As for suggestions:

Think you can give Edge Canceling some moves a shot? Like Lucario's Bv, or other slow moving attacks?
-DD

That's one of my next theories to test, thank you for reminding me.

can u explain glide mechanics.. is there glide canceling, can u attack while glinding.. and so on

Certainly.


To glide, you hold the jump button on your character's second or more jump(assuming the character can glide of course).

You can control the direction of you glide with up or down. If you go up, you will gradually lose speed, but gain altitude. Vice versa for going downward(common sense, right?)

If you direct your glide straight upwards, your glide will cancel.

Any time during the glide, you can press jump to cancel it or A to attack out of it. The gliding A attack is unique and not any of the character's regular aerials.

If your character has a remaining jump after canceling gliding midair, you will be able to do another action after canceling your glide in both ways. This includes using the remaining jump(s). You cannot glide again until you touch the ground EXCEPT for Metaknight, as his up B allows him to glide again.

If your character does not have any remaining jumps after canceling a glide midair, you will enter a falling state.

If you land on the ground while gliding, you will be in a knocked down state.

To avoid this, press jump or A to cancel your glide right before you touch the ground. There will be no landing lag at all.

I feel as if I'm missing something. I'll add this to the game mechanics section and edit it later.

 

[Kokichi]

Great work, Noir. The JTB looks like it'll become a pretty solid adv technique. I really hope we find some more stuff, though. I really love being able to use adv techniques, and if there aren't any in for us to master...well, I feel like it just won't reach Melee's competitive level

But hey, there's always hopes for a patch or for changes in the American / PAL version, no? =)

Edit: I just realized you called it Jump Back Towards, but I dunno, I think Jump Towards Back makes a little more sense, plus JTB rolls off the tongue better than JBT Granted we're not coining terms at this point, but JTB seems like a fitting name.

 

[DarkDragoon]

=P Kokichi! Don't be so pessimistic!
It took years before Wave Dashing showed up, and advanced techs weren't really prevalent in any form for some time.
Sure, lack of L Cancels is an interesting twist, but the actual hand-to-hand combat lasts longer, because of **SEEMINGLY** better recovery and jumps for all.

I mean, SHEIK HAS A TETHER RECOVERY!
>.> If we get a patch, then heck, we're lucky. If not, then we'll just adapt. It won't be an issue =).
-DD

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Thanks, preciate it.

And I guess whatever sounds catchier should be the word haha. But JTB reminds me of Jake The Boy haha.

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Since everyone is floatier, I was wondering if any more characters can use rising aerials (from the ground and/or mid-air jumps) to achieve a similar effect tot Jigglypuff's Wall of Pain?

Thanks for all your info and work.

Yes, it seems like the better characters are proficient at this, such as Metaknight, Toon Link's Bair(link:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QdrdPYuKus), Wolf's Bair(with shuffles), ROB's Fair, DeDeDe's Bair, and more.

 

[Andrew Ott]

Yeah, awesome how fast this stuff is coming out. I guess if you think about it, Melee's techs took longer to come out because we barely lost anything from 64 and thus weren't really looking for anything.

And in my opinion, something like, "Reverse Dash Jump" sounds better because jumping backwards towards someone is possible normally if you're just standing there with your back to them. Just my thought.

 

[Help!]

Thanks a lot.

And up air blinds in melee was when mario short hopped and immediatly did his up air from the short hop and fast falled and there would be absolutely no land lag. I think it's because the move ended before he would hit the ground. I think this would be in since it seems as though a lot of aerial attacks have been sped up and that short hopping has been nerfed although i do not know which characters.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Peach's float cancel is out and so is JC grab?

Really?

 

[ph00tbag]

Edit: I just realized you called it Jump Back Towards, but I dunno, I think Jump Towards Back makes a little more sense, plus JTB rolls off the tongue better than JBT Granted we're not coining terms at this point, but JTB seems like a fitting name.

Really? I think JBT sounds more fluid. Jump Back Towards makes no sense whatsoever in any English grammar I'm familiar with, but in a way, that facet has endeared me to the name.

Then again, I'm a nobody, and no one has to listen to me. Still. I prefer JBT.

 

[K1T3]

How are characters standing to you so far. Who's really good, who looks to be badish, etc?

Also Jump back towards makes more sense as it describes what to do, you jump > turn back(around) > hold foward again so you get the momentum of the dash.

 

[DarkDragoon]

How are characters standing to you so far. Who's really good, who looks to be badish, etc?

Don't ask those kind of questions for a while.
Marth wasn't considered very good in Melee until Ken came along and practically invented his Metagame.
=P When something like that happens, it looks like an embarrassing oversight for those crafting the list, and we don't want THAT to happen.

Besides, there has yet to be any stand out advantage towards one kind of character- Speedy, powerful, etc.

It looks relatively balanced so far.

-DD

 

[OoNoiRoO]

How are characters standing to you so far. Who's really good, who looks to be badish, etc?

Also Jump back towards makes more sense as it describes what to do, you jump > turn back(around) > hold foward again so you get the momentum of the dash.

Good so far:

Toon Link - Back air links like crazy, one combo = 50%, quick and strong normals

Metaknight - Silly aerial priority, can literally throw random crap out, but lacks a killing move aside from UpB.

Squirtle - All aerials are very good(notably Bair/Fair), fast and floaty.

Diddy - Strong and fast, plain and simple. Bair/Fair is strong and gets good range.

ROB - Strong and good range, Up B can be reused(to an extent), and during your Up B you can perferm aerial attacks. You can literally Fair someone out the stage. I'll put up a vid later.


Crappy so far:

Samus: Just junk... slower, bigger most moves lost lots of knockback(notably Nair, literally has no knockback), hard to cancel missiles to hit chest area, homing missiles blow up on platforms.

CF: Yes, very unfortunate. CF's game was all about Shuffles and juggling, but his aerials get very noticable landing lag, making a juggle across the screen almost impossible.


So far, that's my analysis.

 

[Phyvo]

(blah blah glide stuff, point down go faster).

Would it be possible then to use gliding in order to fall faster than a normal fast fall? Can you glide straight down?

Just a thought.

 

[SpicierMooMoo]

I think at least one of these new techniques should be named after noir since he was the first one to find these.

I mean other techniques got named after the person who found them(hugging, inkdrop?)

It's only fair

Maybe something like noir bair?LOL iunno but atleast give the man some credit!

Great work and keep finding those adv techniques!

 

[KJC2004]

noir should dub these adv techs as noirism hahahaha

good job noir, keep it up!

 

[DarkDragoon]

I say if the "Glide Straight Down Faster than a FastFall" works, we call it a Noir Drop!

Part of the reason I think some characters are having harder times than others is that we may be having trouble transitioning out of the Melee play style for characters and adjusting to the possible new ones.

For example:
How high is the stun on a hit from Samus' new charge shot? The knock back is nearly gone from what I hear, so possibly could it be a finishing combo opener?

-DD

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Would it be possible then to use gliding in order to fall faster than a normal fast fall? Can you glide straight down?

Just a thought.

To be honest, I have no clue. I'll have to test that out. The most downward gliding angle is at around a 20 degree angle.

It's just more convenient to drop down regularly. Activating gliding takes a bit of time as the game has to register that you are holding the jump button. Not to mention that if you still have any jumps left, you'll have to use it to activate gliding.

Although that's not ENTIRELY sure though. That's just from what I remember for now.

Part of the reason I think some characters are having harder times than others is that we may be having trouble transitioning out of the Melee play style for characters and adjusting to the possible new ones.

For example:
How high is the stun on a hit from Samus' new charge shot? The knock back is nearly gone from what I hear, so possibly could it be a finishing combo opener?

-DD

I can tell you this much. The game is very floaty and involves lots of air to air combat, just as Sakurai wanted. But in all, I guess it just depends on how you want to play yourself.

Don't remember, I'll test some samus comboes later. I don't have the game with me as of now.

 

[LeeHarris]

Good so far:

Metaknight - Silly aerial priority, can literally throw random crap out, but lacks a killing move aside from UpB.

Squirtle - All aerials are very good(notably Bair/Fair), fast and floaty.

ROB - Strong and good range, Up B can be reused(to an extent), and during your Up B you can perferm aerial attacks. You can literally Fair someone out the stage. I'll put up a vid later.


Crappy so far:

Samus: Just junk... slower, bigger most moves lost lots of knockback(notably Nair, literally has no knockback), hard to cancel missiles to hit chest area, homing missiles blow up on platforms.

CF: Yes, very unfortunate. CF's game was all about Shuffles and juggling, but his aerials get very noticable landing lag, making a juggle across the screen almost impossible.


So far, that's my analysis.

You forgot about Meta's fsmash. It is a decent kill move.

Squirtle does rock

Even though I initially thought ROB was the worst character ever I am starting to like him.

I have to disagree about Samus. Her dair has NO landing lag and you can combo it directly int a dtilt or dsmash. Her bair is still really strong. The missiles aren't nearly as bad as you make them out to be and they are significantly faster.

CF's uair is still very fast with no landing lag. His bair is still good too. I think you think he's worse because hes so much slower compared to Melee but you have to remember everyone in Brawl is slower so relatively he's not bad at all.

 

[cyberdemon]

subscribing...

 

[DstyCube]

Good job on finding this stuff.

As for suggestions:

Think you can give Edge Canceling some moves a shot? Like Lucario's Bv, or other slow moving attacks?
-DD

That's one of my next theories to test, thank you for reminding me.

Could you try out Yoshi's edge canceled egg throws when you do these tests?

 

[Kimosabae]

Could you please check for these techniques:

Platform Cancel and Isai Drop.


Thank you.


-SynikaL

 

[OoNoiRoO]

Maybe I just think they're bad because we're trying to play them like we do in Melee lol. I guess I just have to try more new things out.

IMO Meta's Dsmash is better than his Fsmash. Fsmash takes a while to come out, but Dsmash comes out very fast. The range is about the same, too.

 

[Kimosabae]

Also PC drop.

Sorry.


-SynikaL