Ungodly huge-*** wall o' replies time.
Metaknight
For one thing, certain characters would become God, and we'd have to balance them, but there's no ****ing way we could regulate how, so technically, it could be a different game PER WII. MK would be total ****, because the hitstun would prolly allow him to seriously **** you up, so we'd want to make him less godly. That's just an example.
I really think that MK would be ridiculously broken if hitstun was increased.
His moves have virtually no startup time and virtually no lag. He can just chain moves over and over dealing ****loads of damage and pushing you offstage. Then he Dairs you a couple of times and you're ****ed because an increase of hitstun for MK's Dair will gimp pretty much every single character except for maybe ROB.
MK's Dthrow would turn into an obscenly broken chaingrab that would send anyone offstage and into a WOP with Dairs resulting in easy gimps or an easy kill with Nair if % is high. Thanks to MK's insane dash grab, this is easily possible.
Ftilt would become soooo overpowered. Ftilt into another Ftilt or a grab results in such ridiculous amounts of damage from Ftilt spam or into gimp kills off a Dthrow offstage.
Dtilt would be such a powerful combo starter that it's almost unfair. The IASA frames are crazy and allow you to immediately react and do whatever after a poke that doesn't trip... leading into a grab or maybe something like a Dsmash or Nair to kill.
Uair would be just silly. With increased hitstun, MK could just DI chase you up to the top of the stage and end it with more Uairs, Up B, tornado, whatever. This move comes out frame 2 and has almost no cooldown time to speak of. MK could juggle just about anybody that didn't have a decent Dair to get out of it.
Sure, characters like CF, Sonic, Luigi, etc would become better because of the increased hitstun and more potential for combos. Unfortunately, MK would be in a class of his own because his comboing would be completely unrivaled.
I found out that MK has a ridiculous chaingrab with his Dthrow that will send anyone to the edge of the stage and off with a Fair. From there you can just WOP with Dair for an easy gimp. His Ftilt and Dtilt are borderline broken setup moves that chain into a Dthrow, Dash attack, and much more that would result in insane amounts of damage. The Uair was just... ugh -_-
Granted this was all against test dummies that couldn't react at all, but in my eyes MK+more hitstun would make him the only viable character in the game. He would be the next Akuma.
Meta Knight would be able to carry people out and off the stage with Fair, Fair, Fair them far away enough from the stage that they can't recover or even just finish them off with an Up B.
Ive had discussions with numerous players about hitstun in brawl. The first thing everyone says is MK for god tier. The best thing he could do is combo u air's into up b, which already works. MK would actually be MADE WORSE.
This last quote is absolutely correct - everyone else doesn't understand MK or hitstun (and the fact that modded Brawl would definitely include increased fall speed, nobody likes the floaty **** we have now where anyone can recovery from anywhere).
Let me give you an example: Melee Marth. His fair has more range than Metaknight's fair, and Marth moves about as fast on the ground and in the air, plus he can wavedash. Have you EVER seen a Marth combo an opponent across the entire stage with fairs? Didn't think so. Honestly, I think everyone's getting a bit too used to Brawl to remember how this stuff actually works. I'd suggest that if anyone wants to discuss the effects of increased hitstun they should make sure they play Melee first.
Basically, MK doesn't have enough
speed to chase someone across the stage with fairs (or any other attack). The only character that could go coast-to-coast in Melee was Captain Falcon with uairs and nairs, and that wasn't something that just any casual player could do. Also, it required certain percent ranges, taking DI into account, and some luck.
Factor in faster falling speeds and there is absolutely no way MK could do anything close to what Falcon did sometimes in Melee.
I just want to repeat that Metaknight is NOT going to be made insanely broken from more hitstun. The
only reason he's even good right now is because of Brawl's physics. Thanks to the no-combos exchange-of-blows style of play, MK's just too good.
The few benefits I can see him getting would be that his Tornado would be harder to escape, his uairs would combo easier, and he could combo into his up-B more often. But if he can only do these things while other characters can actually pull of full combos on him, how often do you think they'll even be a concern?
Other Characters
Snake would still be very good, but since faster characters like shiek could build up damage with combos, his tilts wouldn't be nearly the godliness that they are now. DDD's chaingrab wouldn't be as evil, because more characters would be able to chaingrab his fatness. The only thing that would be truly buffed would be things like pikachu's dthrow cg on fox, but fox was more susceptable to combos in melee as well. Fox would be buffed because his shine spiking would work much better and his agility would be much rewarded. Characters like shiek, c. falcon, and sonic would actually be good because of their combo ability. Jigglypuff would actually be a very good character again. Characters could combo into their kill moves which would speed the game up, add more stocks to competitive play, and make the game more fun to watch.
Wow, you're one of the few people here that fully understands this stuff. Pkachu's CG is definitely one of the things I had in mind that would become broken; its knockback would have to be changed or maybe increased fall speed would make it less viable anyways because it wouldn't chain at lower percentages.
I think Snake would be even worse than MK with hitstun. His f-tilt can combo into itself at low percents now...
This is true, at 0% and such two full ftilts could probably hit. Unfortunately cutter misunderstands you...
Actually it'd be way worse. Snake could simply knee lock every single character by just doing the first hit of his Ftilt over and over again for an ungodly amount of damage before the opponent can DI out.
I just tested the Ftilt lock with Snake and it's just gross. He gets a ludicrous amount of damage from a knee lock (remember Ftilt would have increased hitstun) and it comboes into a very easy Utilt kill that can be done on any character. Basically if you get hit by Snake's Ftilt you lose a stock.
The first hit of Ftilt already has crazy hitstun. If it gets more, Snake has a pseudo infinite that can get people up to triple digits and into a Utilt kill.
No. The first hit of Snake's ftilt (the "knee") doesn't use normal hitstun because the characters don't leave the ground. It just has a semi-trip mechanic that would never be increased. As it is, you can combo the first hit of the ftilt into the first jab repeatedly infiniting an opponent until they figure out that they have to shield in between the two hits (I've done this often to newbies online for upwards of 50% at a time). Anyways, my point is that the mechanics of Snake's ftilt stun are irrelevant with the hitstun changes we're talking about.
what about BS, with Hit Stun Ivysaur would be Over Powered @_@ Wouldnt' be able to get out of BS. Heavy Characters would fail hard.
God, this is a concern. Coupled with fallspeed there would be no option for dealing with BS other than to nerf it, hard. Well... we'll see.
I can't say this enough times: don't increase the hitstun. If you hated Falco's 0-45 chaingrab, wait until it's a 0-100 chaingrab. Chances are, everyone would get a 0-death grab. It would be much worse.
With faster fall-speed broken chaingrabs wouldn't really be possible. Also, it's usually not the lack of hitstun that allows characters escape from the current CG's so it's unlikely that more hitstun would buff those one's any more. However I expect there to be a number of semi-infinite CG's popping up with more hitstun anyways and those would need to be dealt with as-is.
And if I'm wrong, lemme know, but isn't modding like this illegal? And we go out in large groups with these modded wii's, so it's not like the police couldn't crack down on it.
What ShadowLink was talking about it just modding your Wii in order to play hacked/illegal copies of games, which is as he says not truly illegal but Nintendo can brick your Wii for it.
However, actually modding the game itself I believe (and then distributing it) is probably fully illegal. But huge Smash tournies take place where underage kids participate in what is usually considered "gaming" (gambling, etc) by putting money towards a pot and competing for it. So as we can see, if something that obvious hasn't caught the attention of anyone yet, there's no way someone's going to notice or care that someone's playing a tweaked version of Brawl.
Dont change the game you hate, DEMAND a better one, Sakurai basically wanted to screw us, and so far, he's been rewarded. If you want the next Smash to be better, make your opinion voiced to him, I doubt he ever comes over here.
Wait, are you kidding me? It's been clear from the development of Brawl that not only does Sakurai ignore (or work in opposition to) competitive aspects but he also pays next to no attention to community input. Plus, the next game is rumored to be on the DS, which isn't hard to believe but will be a nightmare. Do NOT put your hopes on Nintendo for making the Smash good again.
I think we'd need to at the least, make a huge analysis of how hitstun would affect characters, and which ones it would affect most, before we do anything.
The BEST way to do this is to actually change the hitstun and play with it. It's impossible to just imagine scenarios and base the possible quality of a hitstun mod off of that.
i vote earlier ledge dropping, less ledge invincibilty, more edge time while rolling up, and grabbing the edge w/ a tether and a regular grab at the same time
Yep, these are all good ideas that we're probably going to try out because Brawl's edge game is ridiculous.
Brawl has hitstun, it's just that you can dodge during it. That's the problem.
Actually, this isn't necessarily true. You can also attack during it (the source of a lot of M2K's complaints) ridiculously early. Basically the only thing you can't do immediately is jump, and if that's the measure of the hitstun then it's STILL lower than in Melee.
Now that tripping can be removed, people will want hitstun to be increased (too bad it would destroy the game). I can only imagine people hacking Brawl to get wavedashing and L-canceling back as well as other things like shieldstun, nerfing/buffing characters and moves. And so the slippery slope begins.
This is why if Brawl ever makes progress in serious modding it's going to be one group with a single vision and plan working on it and finally releasing it to the public. If it became a community project all hell would break loose. Some input would be nice, but honestly, the amount of personal opinions and people whining would just be a madhouse.
Do you have an idea on how to program djc'ing?
If we ever figure out how to edit the actual source code of Brawl this would probably be one of the easier things to change.
The best solution, IMO, is to alter specific character properties, e.g. increased hitstun for Falcon's Dair, Sheik's throws, etc. Although this would take f*cking FOREVER to figure out, it'll probably be required if we are to alter hitstun at all. Then you'd have to get the SBR involved and yea...wow. Maybe not the best idea after all.
Rather we would change general hitstun first and then, after extensive test play, change specific moves that need to be nerfed.
And I might as well say now that I don't want the SBR involved with this; it wouldn't be beneficial at all.
Airdodging
How about instead of changing hitstun, we just completely get rid of airdodging.
I'm up for testing that.
Instead, if you really want to change anything about the physics, get rid of airdodging.
It has no offensive uses. You can't approach with it, because you can't control its direction. If you could control its direction, everyone could hover off the stage indefinitely with their infinite airdodges, so that is a pointless road to take. Instead, airdodging allows everyone an easy way to avoid attacks while in hitstun. It makes camping easier. It is the main reason you can't combo. If you can't airdodge, you have to attack. It heats things up.
Try getting rid of airdodging. Leave hitstun alone.
This is an absolutely fantastic idea and I'd love to try it but I would have already if getting rid of airdodging wasn't something that I really have no idea how to do.
I've always assumed that hitstun is indeed a value and can be changed with a basic code patch, but removing a whole mechanic? I'm not sure if that's what they did with tripping, I know the first code just altered the chance for it to happen which is what I'd expect, but if the second actually got rid of the mechanic like they said then I'd probably want to speak with the creator of the code to figure out how they found it...
So, basically, if I can figure out how to do it then expect removed airdodging first. (Though that would result in annoying counter-attacks to break out of combos. Imagine a game where great combos exist but the number one escape method is to mash your highest-priority aerial to kick your opponent in the face as soon as you can. Fun, right?)
