NO PUNCH OUT! IN SSB4 (and here's why).

[The Real Gamer]

I almost feel bad for the OP... Got torn a new one by multiple posters at once.

Almost.

 

[Deleted member]

...
Did this really warrant a thread? Most of your arguments are rather weak and it mostly goes on the basis of you pretty much saying, "I hate Little Mac, so please don't put him in the game, Sakurai!"

While there is a Smash symbol in that stage doesn't mean it can't be Little Mac's home stage. In fact, it could be called "Super Smash Bros. Circuit." Also, Little Mac is recent and popular enough for having his series revived and he is an incredibly hard character for Sakurai to ignore. In fact, Sakurai called Little Mac "legendary" on his Assist Trophy page, so he obviously likes Little Mac.

Also, on the basis of the reveal time, we don't have a Fire Emblem rep yet and we got a Fire Emblem stage. The notion of "veterans being an exception" in it of itself is a rather weak argument. Sakurai can do whatever he wants and if he wants to include that boxing arena stage and not Little Mac first, then by all means he can do it.

Little Mac is a character that deserves to be in SSB4 and he has absolutely nothing opposing him.

 

[TewnLeenk]

After reading the title:

Little Mac is in the game. That's a Punch-Out!! stage. You look very silly right now.

 

[AEMehr]

Every character had a stage

Smash 64:
Melee:
Brawl:


Your stage argument is moot. Besides, even if the stage isn't a Punch-Out!! Stage (which every little detail really suggests that it is related to the franchise) Little Mac's home stage would still be the boxing ring. Much like how Ness had Dreamland in 64, Falcon had Sector Z (IIRC) in 64, Marth + Roy had Temple in Melee, and R.O.B. had Mario Bros. in Brawl.

So your reasoning for no Little Mac is flawed.

 

[Ascended]

To the TC:

In Smash 64, Captain Falcon used Planet Zebes for his stage, and Ness used Dreamland for his stage.

In Melee, Marth and Roy had to use Hyrule Temple, and some characters when fought in All-Star Mode don't use stages from their series. (For example, Ganondorf is fought on Final Destination in All-Star.)

In Brawl, R.O.B. is fought on Mario Bros. despite having games to pull stages from (Gyromite and Stack-Up.) Plus, don't forget that there's just a generic Castle Siege stage for the Fire Emblem characters when we could have had something from Shadow Dragon, Mystery of the Emblem, or the Radiant duology.

As has been pointed out, the Boxing Ring does have details that are seen in the Punch-Out games (especially the Wii game.) Also, Arena Ferox from Fire Emblem: Awakening has been shown, yet shouldn't we have seen Chrom fighting on it since it's from his game?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Oh well, I guess Chrom and Ridley are out the window too.

Dude, Ike's stage was revealed in the launch trailer for Brawl, but Ike himself wasn't revealed until much later. It wouldn't be a first, actually, it doesn't affect Lil' Mac's chances really. Furthermore, there's too much evidence that it is a Punch Out stage. I'm not sure where you get your logic from, but what you're stating simply isn't true.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

Yes, but that's because it's a veteran's stage. Luigi wasn't announced for a while, but obviously there were stages from his franchise revealed already. Veterans are exceptions.

I'm curious to what dictates this rule. I was unaware that sakurai had any specific rules he had to follow in what he reveals and when. Each game seems to have been widely different in creation and revelation. Not that the stage being punchout or not has anything to do with Lil Mac's chances of making the roster.

Well that is until smashboards starts making pretenses and facts based on fruitless speculation per the norm.

 

[Berserker.]

Little Mac is a shoo-in irrespective

Let us try to avoid using the word shoe-in.

I mean Mac is likely. No doubt about it.

But.... The last time we used shoe-in for a certain character, that didn't end well

 

[Frostwraith]

Regarding the Boxing Ring stage, I can't say for sure whether or not it's a Punch-Out!! stage, but there are many details that weren't overlooked when designing this stage and Smash Bros. puts a lot of small details in the stages that are allusions to the source games.

This said, while not 100% confirmed as a Punch-Out!! stage, it is very likely that it is given some details that match many rings in Punch-Out!! and they're likely deliberate. This is just like Castle Siege from Brawl's first trailer, because nothing in Castle Siege explicitly tells us that it's a Fire Emblem stage, but has elements from the series nonetheless.

And, Punch-Out!! stage or not, this stage is absolutely no indication that Little Mac is in or not, since we had characters without a home stage (Ness and Falcon in 64, Marth and Roy in Melee and R.O.B. in Brawl) and we also had stages with no character associated (Smashville, PictoChat and Hanenbow).

Another tidbit: check the Mario Circuit stage in Brawl and look at the screen with the karts' position. As you can observe, it's based on Mario Kart DS, having both the racetrack's layout, the racers' positions and their placement. Notice that it has a blue background with some symbols scrolling infinitely. Originally in Mario Kart DS, the background displayed the course's cup by looping the cup's symbol such as a Mushroom for Mushroom Cup or a Star for Star Cup. This is retained in Brawl, but you know what is the cup symbol instead of mushrooms or stars? None other than the Smash Bros. symbol, implying a "Smash Cup."

This same argument could be used to explain the symbol on the boxing ring stage, so there's nothing stopping it from being a Punch-Out!! stage: not even the Smash emblem. Despite all this, it's still too early to call it a Punch-Out!! stage without official word from Sakurai, but there are many details that indicate a good chance at this being a Punch-Out!! stage.

 

[PlayerXIII]

I think we can all agree on one thing: We CAN'T guess who is in and what is in since it's Sakurai we are talking about. Hell, he could remove Ganondorf and add Goku as a complete replica of Lucario if he so wished (to the distaste of us all) and we wouldn't be able to do squat about it. No one knows what is inside Sakurai's mind - and no one ever will except for the man himself. Even when he no longer is the director for Smash, I am pretty sure we will still have him have a role in the making of the game and that is making us spin heads. Give up on predicting if the stage is or isn't a Punch Out! Stage, give up on predicting if Mac is in or not, same for Ridley and what not, or at least do it somewhat calmly and not with claws and fangs like some are doing. I am a Ridley supporter and a Mac supporter (and I am no retro gamer: I never played a Punch Out! game but I already knew Mac before Brawl and wished for him to be playable) but I won't be mad if neither get in - Dissapointed, maybe. Mad? Nope. Will it stop me from getting the game and trying to become competitive on it? Nope.

 

[peeup]

ROB was an exception

Pretty sure that's a exception.

Veterans are exceptions.

Maybe Little Mac is an exception.

 

[Banjodorf]

As if the all the Punch-Out!! details were put into that stage by accident. I'm not really sure what the OP is on about.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

There's a reason why the term, "Think before you post" exists. Peach never got her castle in Brawl, but that didn't keep her from being playable; this can also apply to Little Mac.

 

[No Control]

From http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/66465585

Whenever I would post tidbits about this, I got a couple of requests to make this its own thread, so I decided to go ahead go through with it.

So, the boxing ring stage. You've seen it, I'm sure. Some people aren't exactly sure if it's a Punch Out related stage, if it's a Kirby themed stage, or just a generic new boxing ring stage just for kicks. Well, I'm gonna tell you that this stage is a Punch Out themed stage for a multitude of reasons. So let's begin I guess...

First off, the audience is human, so you can rule out any possibility that this is a Kirby themed stage (all Kirby boxing rings have Kirby characters instead). The marquee's in the background are all dot styled, which is consistent with the marquees in Punch Out Wii, and even the title screen and round indicators for Mike Tyson's Punch Out.

Various dot styled marquee screens: http://i.imgur.com/sgmo0ru.png

All logos in Punch Out Wii are adorned with clusters of stars, which are usually in 3's because triple star punches are the most powerful punch in the game, as well as the "leaf vines" on the sides (forgive me; I don't know the term for this) and a giant star somewhere in the middle. The logo in the ring, while being smash themed, shares all of these characteristics.

3 star cluster on bottom: http://i.imgur.com/QSCAXpe.jpg
Minor/Major/World Circuit Emblems: http://i.imgur.com/oWzpteX.jpg

The ring ropes are also identical in both color and configuration as the Major Circuit ring in Punch Out Wii. Similarly, the corners are all identical colors and positions as the Punch Out Wii corners. The logo in Smash also features a ribbon at the top, which is a direct throwback to the World Circuit ribbon at the top and bottom of the logo.

Major Circuit ropes and World Circuit ribbon: http://i.imgur.com/UV4O3mB.png

Also, as a random tidbit, the ribbon in the Smash Punch Out stage says "CHAMPIONSHIP" on it, which is probably because if it straight up said "Major Circuit" on it, it would be flat out obvious. Plus since Smash Bros doesn't have "circuits", championship makes more sense in the context of the game.

The final fight in Punch Out Wii, Mr. Sandman, has a very particular entrance for both his Title Defense and Contender fights. He approaches the ring while there's a green laser light show that goes on behind him. Well, check this out...

Sandman intro: http://i.imgur.com/hvnTGDl.png
Mario in the ring: http://i.imgur.com/Odu2I7I.jpg

Same green laser show.

But yeah, there are an abundance of intentional details that suggest this stage is designed to be a Punch Out stage. There may be a few details that I'm missing, but those were all the details I seemed to notice. Unsure if this confirms Mac being a character, but at the very least there's a stage from the Punch Out series in the game.

OP do you deny this? In fact does anybody on this board deny this is a Punch-Out stage after reading this? If the Smash logo is an issue for you, there's two things that debunk that too:
1. The Punch-Out series has different logos on the mat depending on the circuit. This is the Smash Bros Circuit, so has the Smash Bros logo.
2. The Mario Kart stage in Brawl featured the Smash logo too.

How is this not a Punch-Out stage?!

 

[Deleted member]

Signs point to it being a "Smash Circuit" for Little Mac, but until we get more information it cannot be definitively claimed either way.,

 

[Arcadenik]

So... Animal Crossing gets a town called Smashville... and Punch-Out!! might get a circuit called Smash Circuit... sounds good to me.

 

[JamesDNaux]

It is extremely likely that it is a Punch-Out stage, however, we also got an Animal Crossing stage in Brawl. I'm still skeptical about Little Mac becoming playable, he's hardly a "shoe-in" hell, weren't there a handful of "shoe-ins" for Brawl that didn't make it? I'm quite sure he could be playable, there's no question about that. I hardly believe he's likely, however, for anything other than returning as an assist trophy. The boxing ring will likely be Smashville 2.0.

 

[~ Valkyrie ~]

Now that we have droven our point home, can we lock this topic?

...

Why is everyone staring at me?

 

[Arcadenik]

It is extremely likely that it is a Punch-Out stage, however, we also got an Animal Crossing stage in Brawl. I'm still skeptical about Little Mac becoming playable, he's hardly a "shoe-in" hell, weren't there a handful of "shoe-ins" for Brawl that didn't make it? I'm quite sure he could be playable, there's no question about that. I hardly believe he's likely, however, for anything other than returning as an assist trophy. The boxing ring will likely be Smashville 2.0.

That's only because Villager was planned/considered for Brawl at one point.

 

[JamesDNaux]

That's only because Villager was planned/considered for Brawl at one point.

So you're saying an Electroplankton character was planned at one point?

 

[BlitznBurst]

Unfortunately a boxing ring is simply too generic a stage to point out any major defining features, so until the stage is given a name or Little Mac is confirmed I remain skeptical. It could very well be a generic boxing ring

 

[Maricalistaro]

So you're saying an Electroplankton character was planned at one point?

Are you seriously trying to compare Elecroplankton to Animal Crossing and Punch Out... Because I am quite certain Electroplankton was not know for it's memorable characters.

 

[BlitznBurst]

Are you seriously trying to compare Elecroplankton to Animal Crossing and Punch Out... Because I am quite certain Electroplankton was not know for it's memorable characters.

How do you even begin to think this is what he was getting at

He was saying that "Smashviille doesn't count because Villager was planned for Brawl" is a bull**** argument because there are other characterless stages that obviously weren't going to have playable representation

 

[Morbi]

Just going to come out of nowhere with this one: there will be no Punch Out! characters in SSB4, and on top of that, the new boxing ring stage is not a Punch Out! stage - assuming that it being a Punch Out! stage means a Punch Out! character will be in the game; now here's why.

Imagine this scenario; Sakurai reveals that a certain Punch Out! character is a newcomer - would you really be willing to believe that the boxing ring stage was a Punch Out! stage all along, and consequently, that it was shown off before the actual newcomer? Can you really justify the thought of Sakurai saying "Oh, and Lil Mac's stage? You've actually already seen it - it was that boxing ring stage shown off in the very first trailer"? That would be some strange decision-making on Sakurai's part; to reveal a character's stage before the character himself. I think THAT very point, is what makes it certain, that the stage is not Punch Out! related.

Simply wouldn't make sense, now would it? Now if it was, let's say, a non-series stage like Final Destination or Battlefield, it would be practical to show off exactly how it was shown off in the trailer (since it's not tied to any franchise, besides I guess SSB). Heck, it could be argued/theorized that the same way Brawl introduced a new non-series stage, Battlefield (as an actual selectable stage), SSB4 would introduce a new non-series stage as well, "Boxing Ring" or whatever.

If you take a good look at the boxing ring stage, it's not even themed well enough to be a Punch Out! stage, in my opinion. Nintendo always does an excellent job at representing the franchises in SSB, down to the little things (like Tails, Knuckles, and Silver in Green Hill Zone). I don't think that this time around they've decided to be subtle about what game is being represented in the stage. Sure, even as a Punch Out! stage they'd maybe add a SSB logo on the stage, but to only use SSB themes in the stage and no direct references to the Punch Out! series? Nintendo wouldn't ever do their own property such a disservice; it'd be pretty half-*****. Go ahead and consider that.

MegaMan was shown alongside his stage, and so was Villager - Lil Mac isn't going to be in SSB4 because 1) if the boxing ring stage were a Punch Out! stage, it would've been revealed along with him 2) if it's not a Punch Out! stage, considering that each character gets their own stage, what are the odds of SSB4 having a non-series boxing ring stage and a Punch Out! stage?

I feel that a Punch Out! newcomer would be neither recent & relevant enough (like Villager in SSB4 or Sonic in Brawl) or a forgotten classic making an unforeseen return (like Pit or ROB in Brawl), therefore, probably not being such a great character choice. Heck, those two criteria are the reason why Wii Fit Trainer was a great choice: it's both relevant and unforeseen! Punch Out! is a classic, but it's last iteration was on the Wii, so it's not like anyone has forgotten about it.

Punch Out! fans just have to realise that they may really WANT a Punch Out! character in the game, but it doesn't mean it's a strong possibility - possible isn't the same as likely. I can admit though: the boxing ring stage, all doubts aside, COULD be a Punch Out! stage, but only if there is no Punch Out! newcomer. You obviously understand why now (I've presented the logic behind that already), but not having a Punch Out! newcomer would be the only way it could be possible. Again, I stress that possible isn't the same as likely.

Thank you for your time, let me know what you think.

If the stage was indeed a "Punch Out" stage, there would be some objective rationale behind it. However, there is no evidence to suggest that this notion is feasible, just as there is no evidence to contradict the legitimacy of the premise. Simply put, it is not a Punch Out stage, we would have reasons to support that argument if it was. We must not forget the preclusion rule. That is duly noted. It doesn't change that fact that the stage could be a generic boxing stage to represent Smash AND allude to Little Mac. At this point, it should not be evidence for his case, it should not be evidence supporting the opposing side.

It is just a stage. Any interpretation is subjective.

 

[Banjodorf]

Altruism, did you even notice that post a few posts up, that HIGHLIGHTS all the reasons we're about 99% sure it's a Punch-Out!! stage? I know people love to post contrary things for the sake of discussion, but c'mon man.

 

[Morbi]

Altruism, did you even notice that post a few posts up, that HIGHLIGHTS all the reasons we're about 99% sure it's a Punch-Out!! stage? I know people love to post contrary things for the sake of discussion, but c'mon man.

I didn't read most the thread. I have been on the forums since the game was announced, so naturally I assumed that I was current and relevant in regards to Smash. Everytime the discussion is brought to fruition, it is simply ignored. I have never actually read anything that makes the stage a Punch Out stage (aside from the premise that boxing= Punch Out). I will actually have to go back and find it, it still seems a little unsatisfactory. I didn't see anything on the stage alluding to anything Punch Out related. There are some overt signs that the stage is generic. Either way, my post still stands. Unless there is a preponderance of the evidence, the stage could be either/or.

 

[mimgrim]

I didn't read most the thread. I have been on the forums since the game was announced, so naturally I assumed that I was current and relevant in regards to Smash. Everytime the discussion is brought to fruition, it is simply ignored. I have never actually read anything that makes the stage a Punch Out stage (aside from the premise that boxing= Punch Out). I will actually have to go back and find it, it still seems a little unsatisfactory. I didn't see anything on the stage alluding to anything Punch Out related. There are some overt signs that the stage is generic. Either way, my post still stands. Unless there is a preponderance of the evidence, the stage could be either/or.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/66465585

That's the thread with why the Boxing Stage might be a Punch Out. Make of it what you will.

 

[Morbi]

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/66465585

That's the thread with why the Boxing Stage might be a Punch Out. Make of it what you will.

It seems fairly circumstantial, I am not necessarily sure why this wouldn't apply to a generic stage either. It is not a preponderance of the evidence, so I will disregard it. I will keep the similarities in mind. I wish to make it overt that I do believe that Little Mac will be playable, and I do believe that the stage is an allusion to him. I have difficulty believing it is a Punch Out stage though. I am not going to make objective statements regarding this stage based on some minor detail replications.

 

[Spazzy_D]

The fact that only die-hard retro nerds know who he is or that he even has a name, let alone exists?

Even the average person nowadays knows who Wii Fit Trainer and even the Villager are and what they come from.

Meanwhile, Little Mac doesn't look distinguishable from any other average boxing character or even real guy. Not much appeal going for him either. I doubt most people even know about Punch Out's Wii game. I sure didn't. XD

Punch-Out Wii sold over a million copies (more then the Kid Icarus revivial, and it was treated as a major franchise during the Smash reveal), so I guess at least a few people have heard of it......

 

[EddyBearr]

-Smashville is 100% animal crossing. Smashville is loaded with Smash logos.
--Boxing Ring is a Punch-Out!! Stage. From the crowd, to the color patterns on the ropes, and to everything else.

-Punch-Out!! is a modernized franchise now, not in the same boat as retros (though could be part of it.
--Of modern (truly unique) franchise, Punch-Out!! is the best-selling / most-widely-played / most-widely-known (2nd & 3rd intuitive) franchise. The 2nd is Golden Sun.

-Little Mac has huge support in the West.
--Little Mac's "huge western support" is regularly acknowledged in the East.
---Any PR representative working on this game who reads posts on forums from either region will say "Little Mac is big." This would get relayed to decision makers in the game, like Sakurai.

-Little Mac has been acknowledged as existing in Smash Bros. Sakurai said that many AT's were characters that almost made it but didn't. This is obviously not true for Excitebike, but for Little Mac, it almost definitely would be.

-Little Mac would be very easy to implement in the game. He is a very basic character, with no special games, with no need for flashy animations, with a moveset that is very easily taken from his games and innovated on the spot considering it's a well-defined style of fighting in the first place. He lacks fancy animation, fancy artwork, and has already been given a modern image.

-I am not a Punch-Out!! fan, and I didn't come close to supporting Little Mac before E3. I am now thoroughly convinced that he is in the game, perhaps even already developed.

-Sakurai revealing the stage early on has brought more people personally involved into hyping SSB4's release than any other stage. This stage has generated more thought, more ideas, more speculation, more support, and more general interest than any other stage. This is what you call "Amazing marketing skill." This is to be expected from a top-level businessman like Sakurai.

-Considering some inaccurate absolutes and hard-to-deduct-deductions in your post, I think you're projecting your point about "folks wanting Mac in." On the contrary, I think you've got tunnel vision, and that despite all this very clear evidence (and again I was neutral to begin with, maybe slightly against due to being so basic,) you're only seeing "He's not there. It's not his stage. No, No, and No."

 

[mimgrim]

It seems fairly circumstantial, I am not necessarily sure why this wouldn't apply to a generic stage either. It is not a preponderance of the evidence, so I will disregard it. I will keep the similarities in mind. I wish to make it overt that I do believe that Little Mac will be playable, and I do believe that the stage is an allusion to him. I have difficulty believing it is a Punch Out stage though. I am not going to make objective statements regarding this stage based on some minor detail replications.

Which is why I consider it as a Punch Out reference kind of stage instead of just a flat out Punch Out stage and will continue to see it like that until it gets officially stated otherwise.

 

[Morbi]

Punch-Out Wii sold over a million copies (more then the Kid Icarus revivial, and it was treated as a major franchise during the Smash reveal), so I guess at least a few people have heard of it......

You forgot to mention his status as an assist trophy in Brawl. Anybody that played Brawl should be familiar with Little Mac, Starfy, or Issac (even if they didn't play any of their games).

Which is why I consider it as a Punch Out reference kind of stage instead of just a flat out Punch Out stage and will continue to see it like that until it gets officially stated otherwise.

This is essentially what I believe.

 

[Zonderion]

You forgot to mention his status as an assist trophy in Brawl. Anybody that played Brawl should be familiar with Little Mac, Starfy, or Issac (even if they didn't play any of their games).

He alluded to it.

-Little Mac has been acknowledged as existing in Smash Bros. Sakurai said that many AT's were characters that almost made it but didn't. This is obviously not true for Excitebike, but for Little Mac, it almost definitely would be.

 

[Morbi]

He alluded to it.

I was responding to Spazzy_D, not EddyBearr. Haha.

 

[JamesDNaux]

How do you even begin to think this is what he was getting at

He was saying that "Smashviille doesn't count because Villager was planned for Brawl" is a bull**** argument because there are other characterless stages that obviously weren't going to have playable representation

Thank you. I'm all for this being a Punch-Out ring, it'd be nice to play on the "Smash Circuit", but I'm not jumping the gun on Little Mac being playable. A stage doesn't need a character, and a character doesn't need a stage, as evidenced by Smashville and R.O.B.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

-Little Mac has been acknowledged as existing in Smash Bros. Sakurai said that many AT's were characters that almost made it but didn't. This is obviously not true for Excitebike, but for Little Mac, it almost definitely would be.

This actually was the case for Excitebike. Sakurai said the aforementioned BMXer almost made it in, but couldn't jump in a believable way. EB is one of the only characters Sakurai specifically said was an almost-not-rejected character.

 

[Deleted member]

This actually was the case for Excitebike. Sakurai said the aforementioned BMXer almost made it in, but couldn't jump in a believable way. EB is one of the only characters Sakurai specifically said was an almost-not-rejected character.

Not exactly.

Excitebiker was just among a list of NES characters Sakurai went over through process of elimination while deciding upon the NES character he planned to "revive" for Melee.
He wasn't "almost" in.

 

[MopedOfJustice]

Not exactly.

Excitebiker was just among a list of NES characters Sakurai went over through process of elimination while deciding upon the NES character he planned to "revive" for Melee.
He wasn't "almost" in.

I'm pretty sure EB was what Sakurai was going to pick, until the jumping thing, at which point he ironically settled for the IC. This is what I remember, I may be completely wrong, but I don't think I am.

 

[Jumpman84]

You know, during all this arguing over whether it's a Punch-Out stage or a Smash stage, a shocking revelation hit me...

It's neither. It is, in fact, a Wii Boxing stage. And Miis are going to be playable.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty sure EB was what Sakurai was going to pick, until the jumping thing, at which point he ironically settled for the IC. This is what I remember, I may be completely wrong, but I don't think I am.

You are.

On the Ice Climber's page on the Japanese Melee site, he states that he went through a process of elimination to decide the "NES Ambassador" from among a list of NES stars.
He then gave an example of how he went through elimination, using Excitebiker, Balloon Fighter, Bubbles, and Urban Champion as examples and giving their reasoning (would have to install ramps on each stage, useless if balloons popped, questioned how she work as a fighter, doesn't have anything to make him interesting, etc.), and ended it by saying that the Ice Climbers had no such reasoning.