Ninja Clan Here We Stand! Sheik Match-Up Thread

[Anth0ny]

I've played some good Rosalinas online, and I got REKT. Like, it was brutal. It almost felt like when I played Marth vs. Meta Knight in the early days of Brawl. It felt like... nothing works. Every option the opposing character has is better than mine. I can't play my character the same way I do against every other character in the game, Rosalina and Luma is too weird a character for that.

From my experience against the Rosalinas I've faced:

1. Luma is way too good against Sheik. She absorbs needles and every time I landed a grab she was able to break it up before I used a PUMMEL, let alone a throw. Obviously as I get better at the match up I'll learn how to pick my grabs better, but MAN, in these early days, I feel like I can't even grab Rosalina.

2. Rosalina herself is INCREDIBLY strong, especially with Luma, but even without. Her aerials have a ton of range, and a lot of times it felt like she out ranged and out prioritizes Sheik's. All of her smash attacks are strong and fast. Sheik is in kill percent to all of them at 100-110%, and even LOWER if she has Luma to help her. I died at 79% on battlefield to a Rosy up smash (or forward smash, can't remember) with Luma helping her out.

3. Her grabs are really good, and lead to easy combos/kill moves. Especially on battlefield. Rosalina is a giant, and she can punish you on the bottom battlefield platforms SUPER hard. I died a lot because I got stuck on those platforms

tl;dr, I have no matchup advice against this character because I got REKT. I feel like the match up is in her favor at least 60-40. I could just be booty at the matchup, but I feel like on paper she is just a strong character and counters a lot of Sheik's best options.

help me beat this character!

 

[Jackson]

We haven't figured out Rosalina yet. As the character is understood she'll obviously be played better, but at the same time we'll eventually deal with her better.

 

[Dyce]

How do you all deal with Peach and Marth? I've been getting wrecked by my friend's Peach and Marth quite often. I'm getting better at the match-up, anticipating their moves and such, but is there any tips you all can share?

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Opinions on the Jellyfish custom?

 

[ArikadoSD]

How do you all deal with Peach and Marth? I've been getting wrecked by my friend's Peach and Marth quite often. I'm getting better at the match-up, anticipating their moves and such, but is there any tips you all can share?

Against Marth you have to pay close attention to his Fsmashes and aerials, as they outrange Sheik's. You can't blindingly approach with aerials or a dash attack because they're easily punishable. What I usually do is grab them then do all my followups, usually it's dthrow/fthrow followed by 3 or 4 fairs. This often sends them off-stage, you can continue edgeguarding from there.

Needles are also crucial against Marth, they seriously help.

As for Peach, I don't know really, she usually can't do anything to my Sheik lol. Just do the usual dthrow/fthrow with followups. The Peaches I faced all like to hover around waiting to be right above you to do their dair or to sneak in a fair, this is easily punishable. Her side B can be shielded easily and is also easily punishable. It's just an easy match up imo for me, just use Sheik's aerials to your advantage.

 

[Dyce]

Against Marth you have to pay close attention to his Fsmashes and aerials, as they outrange Sheik's. You can't blindingly approach with aerials or a dash attack because they're easily punishable. What I usually do is grab them then do all my followups, usually it's dthrow/fthrow followed by 3 or 4 fairs. This often sends them off-stage, you can continue edgeguarding from there.

Needles are also crucial against Marth, they seriously help.

As for Peach, I don't know really, she usually can't do anything to my Sheik lol. Just do the usual dthrow/fthrow with followups. The Peaches I faced all like to hover around waiting to be right above you to do their dair or to sneak in a fair, this is easily punishable. Her side B can be shielded easily and is also easily punishable. It's just an easy match up imo for me, just use Sheik's aerials to your advantage.

Thanks man, I appreciate it. Do the Peaches you play often use their turnips against you?

 

[KenMeister]

Can I get some help with the Sonic matchup? At this rate, I would much rather be fighting Rosalina than this a******. I feel like everytime he goes into spindash or uses Nair I can't seem to knock him out of it with an aerial or tilt, and when I finally grab the jerk, he just upB's out of it. Is there any way I can properly punish this jerk with waaay too many get out of jail free cards, and is nearly safe on everything he does?

 

[aesahaettr]

Can I get some help with the Sonic matchup? At this rate, I would much rather be fighting Rosalina than this a******. I feel like everytime he goes into spindash or uses Nair I can't seem to knock him out of it with an aerial or tilt, and when I finally grab the jerk, he just upB's out of it. Is there any way I can properly punish this jerk with waaay too many get out of jail free cards, and is nearly safe on everything he does?

Man, I went through this same frustration last night against a Sonic named "leroy". He was essentially unpunishable while EASILY racking up big damage. The good news is that after nearly 10 losses, I understood the match up better. The bad news is that I still don't really know what to do. First things first, you are entirely safe in your shield. If he is going to spam spin-dash to u-air, shield and punish with your own u-air. It hits if you're quick enough. Shielding his neutral B is kind of a wash. He is in no position to punish your shield but he recovers too quickly to punish, too. If his spacing his poor, when starting up his neutral B, you can sweet-spot u-smash pretty effortlessly. Otherwise, you can aerial or, probably, bouncing fish.

Sonic is really tough for me. I tried retreating defensively with n-airs against the spin-dash but those seem to unfavorably trade. Attacking the spin-dash head on is hard because if you miss, you'll eat a lot of damage and maybe get KO'd with his u-air combo. Trying to punish a neutral B shield bounce got me f-smashed a few times. His spring KO'd me while edge guarding more than once. That won't be a problem when I am more familiar with the match up but that stupid trick got me good.

I did win a match and I think I won it playing aggressively. I think if you don't get sonic the time to breathe, he can't screw with any of his spinning moves.

 

[Wasserwipf]

Can I get some help with the Sonic matchup? At this rate, I would much rather be fighting Rosalina than this a******. I feel like everytime he goes into spindash or uses Nair I can't seem to knock him out of it with an aerial or tilt, and when I finally grab the jerk, he just upB's out of it. Is there any way I can properly punish this jerk with waaay too many get out of jail free cards, and is nearly safe on everything he does?

Man, I went through this same frustration last night against a Sonic named "leroy". He was essentially unpunishable while EASILY racking up big damage. The good news is that after nearly 10 losses, I understood the match up better. The bad news is that I still don't really know what to do. First things first, you are entirely safe in your shield. If he is going to spam spin-dash to u-air, shield and punish with your own u-air. It hits if you're quick enough. Shielding his neutral B is kind of a wash. He is in no position to punish your shield but he recovers too quickly to punish, too. If his spacing his poor, when starting up his neutral B, you can sweet-spot u-smash pretty effortlessly. Otherwise, you can aerial or, probably, bouncing fish.

Sonic is really tough for me. I tried retreating defensively with n-airs against the spin-dash but those seem to unfavorably trade. Attacking the spin-dash head on is hard because if you miss, you'll eat a lot of damage and maybe get KO'd with his u-air combo. Trying to punish a neutral B shield bounce got me f-smashed a few times. His spring KO'd me while edge guarding more than once. That won't be a problem when I am more familiar with the match up but that stupid trick got me good.

I did win a match and I think I won it playing aggressively. I think if you don't get sonic the time to breathe, he can't screw with any of his spinning moves.

Luckily I was able to play against a few sonic's online, and even fought a decent one (well the best I had played against to this point at least). I'll go through what I noticed.

Needles are the key. You can hit Sonic out of everything with a single needles. Charges are always better, but you won't have much time to do so. His Neutral B is actually easy to punish. If it hits your shield you can follow up with a fast aerial. Also, if you don't think that'll work, you can try to spotdodge it, causing sonic to suffer from so much lagg. I think you could DACUS into it, but a fast aerial does the job anyway.
In addition, Sonic's moves are pretty easy to Vektor out, so he shoudn't be able to get long strings. On the other hand, you should be able to do so. Sonic is pretty much combo fodder for Sheik once she gets in. Just string everything together you have.
Also, his recovery is very predictable. Bouncing Fish overpowers his neutral B (you want to spam the B button when doing so however...). Then, hes Up-B is almost vertically... get the timing down and you'll be able to edgeguard sonic so effectivly that they can do nothing against it.
On a last note, since its for Glory... Sheiks running grab and reverse grab are extremly important. You can punish them for rolling. Don't forget that.

Hope this helps a bit. Keep in mind this is only forgory knowledge, I haven't had the honour to play a good sonic local yet.

 

[KenMeister]

Man, I went through this same frustration last night against a Sonic named "leroy". He was essentially unpunishable while EASILY racking up big damage. The good news is that after nearly 10 losses, I understood the match up better. The bad news is that I still don't really know what to do. First things first, you are entirely safe in your shield. If he is going to spam spin-dash to u-air, shield and punish with your own u-air. It hits if you're quick enough. Shielding his neutral B is kind of a wash. He is in no position to punish your shield but he recovers too quickly to punish, too. If his spacing his poor, when starting up his neutral B, you can sweet-spot u-smash pretty effortlessly. Otherwise, you can aerial or, probably, bouncing fish.

Sonic is really tough for me. I tried retreating defensively with n-airs against the spin-dash but those seem to unfavorably trade. Attacking the spin-dash head on is hard because if you miss, you'll eat a lot of damage and maybe get KO'd with his u-air combo. Trying to punish a neutral B shield bounce got me f-smashed a few times. His spring KO'd me while edge guarding more than once. That won't be a problem when I am more familiar with the match up but that stupid trick got me good.

I did win a match and I think I won it playing aggressively. I think if you don't get sonic the time to breathe, he can't screw with any of his spinning moves.

Wait, you played leroy? Somehow I feel like I played the same guy too. He also absolutely murdered me with Up airs, going as far as springing up to the very top of the ceiling and finishing from there, like holy flid. And speaking of spring, that caused issues for me too when punishing him. He kinda has an equivalent of Rush Cancel like Mega Man only he doesn't get trapped easily like MM does, so he tends to get out grab combos easily and it infuriates me. lol

 

[saviorslegacy]

Sorry for being gone for so long. The Navy giveth and the Navy taketh away.
I will go through and update the thread in the next couple of days with all of the information that everyone has contributed. Thank you all for your patience and help.

In the mean time would you guys mind discussing Sonic.
With current interest in the character and people like M2K looking to main him I believe he is currently a possible threat of being used often.
After that I believe we should discuss ZSS for the same reason.

 

[?.?]

Just to pitch it for sonic I thought Nair beat out both his spindashes? heck even sourspot seems to do nicely for me, maybe I'm just spacing it well on accident.

 

[KenMeister]

Just to pitch it for sonic I thought Nair beat out both his spindashes? heck even sourspot seems to do nicely for me, maybe I'm just spacing it well on accident.

Every time I land a nair, I feel like the trade ends up being in Sonic's favor as I get beat out by it, but I might just be landing the late hit of it, I dunno.

 

[?.?]

Every time I land a nair, I feel like the trade ends up being in Sonic's favor as I get beat out by it, but I might just be landing the late hit of it, I dunno.

What are you trading with because I wasn't even trading... maybe my memory is fuzzy. Or I'm confusing my sheik matches with my purin matches. Woops

 

[Tristan_win]

Sheik can crouch under Zero suit

Fsmash
Utilt(It has huge nerfs on its hit boxes)
Neutral B
Jab1
The beginning part of her grab.

So if you land in front of a Zero suit as you fair/nair their shield you should almost always use dtilt as it's very difficult for Zero suit to punish. I'm unsure if Zero Suit OoS up B can hit low enough to hit Sheik but if it can't then Zero suit has no fast offensive option when we are applying shield pressure. That's pretty big and can really help sway this match up in our favor.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zelda boards are beginning our discussion on Sheik, an input would be greatly appreciated here

 

[ROOOOY!]

Every time I land a nair, I feel like the trade ends up being in Sonic's favor as I get beat out by it, but I might just be landing the late hit of it, I dunno.

If you're hitting him during the hop on spindash (side b) part of that is invincible. Could be that. Cos a Sonic wouldn't outright approach with a roll ( I know all the for glory ones do, from like 2/3rds of an omega stage away lol, I mean a competant one).

I've only got FG sheik experience so I can't contribute anything not dumb. Just thought I'd try to answer that bit. Take him to battlefield though, Sonic is kinda limited on there and I imagine Sheik benefits from people stuck on platforms. Both characters play similarly, I'd almost look at it in the same sort of way as a ditto. Sheik is basically Sonic in a gimp mask.

 

[ArikadoSD]

So, tell me about that Yoshi match up.

 

[BadKarma]

Who would you guys consider to be shieks worst matchups or 50/50 matchups?

 

[Dyce]

So, tell me about that Yoshi match up.

I have a friend that mained Yoshi ever since Smash 64. From what I can tell, I believe that Sheik has the advantage. Gimping has been a little difficult as Yoshi has super armor in his 2nd jump. Try not to be above Yoshi. Needles work really well against Yoshi. Eventually, the Yoshi will probably start the egg camping. I've been grabbed many times as a result of shielding away the eggs. Yoshi does not do too well against pressure, so that's the most important part of the matchup. Of course, I've only played a few on FG and my friend. Any more input would be quite valuable.

Also:

ZeRo has a video discussing Rosa and Sheik ditto MUs.
http://youtu.be/nPBl2oWQjCk?list=UUc8JKj5y6NVUd7RooLMvjdQ

Here's his video about Link MU:
http://youtu.be/j1UuVMZBoZM

In regards to the Sonic MU, I've benefited from not being provoked by spin dash spam. Read and punish Sonic's follow ups. Here's his video about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlcN0yzAz2s&index=4&list=UUc8JKj5y6NVUd7RooLMvjdQ

^These were from the 1.0.3 patch.
Within the new patch, I've noticed an ease in the Greninja match-up. Perhaps it is because of their nerfs, but regardless, it is something to discuss.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Alright, I done my best to update the OP.
We are now discussing Bowser. Please give your input.

Yes I know that my images are broken. It is driving my OCD crazy but I cannot for the life of me locate where I originally got them.

Quite frustrated about that.

 

[B!squick]

Bowser is cake. Just keep him off the ground and you shouldn't have any trouble. I wish could expand on that in some way or tell you something you should watch out for, but it really is that simple. Keep in mind you don't want to attack his shield, so either make liberal use of grabs or use those annoying grenades.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Dash Attack puts Luma into a tumble. You can follow up with a fair if he does not quite reach the pit.

 

[Orion*]

Sheik might beat sonic in all honesty. It's kinda even feeling atm because sonic has dumb reward sometimes for fishing things. But Sheik definitely wins in neutral.

Rosa is pretty difficult, but the matchup is also in no way horrible. It's probably 6:4 in rosas favor, Rosa in particular is bad in dealing with pressure, and if you can get momentum on her it's kind of a big deal.

I feel like both mu's require you to really pick your spots when you decide to approach, and just carefully zone most of the time. It's a bit counter intuitive because sheik gets to apply a lot of pressure for free vs many characters in this cast, but it's just what it is. Running in recklessly just makes you eat massive damage or die vs these chars.

I'm not really interested in writing out a handbook on what to do in each and every situation, but sheik actually can win either of these matchups just fine with some effort. The metagame may change but it's not worth complaining about atm until you have looked at your options

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Bowser is cake. Just keep him off the ground and you shouldn't have any trouble. I wish could expand on that in some way or tell you something you should watch out for, but it really is that simple. Keep in mind you don't want to attack his shield, so either make liberal use of grabs or use those annoying grenades.

Expanding on what is said already:

• Dash grab constantly. There is nothing Bowser can do to punish your dash grab. If we spot dodge, our spot dodge is so bad that you'll be able to act before we can. You basically pressure Bowser for free and Bowser has no answer outside a lucky jab. Even Fortress is bad against Shiek now because it no longer has invulnerability on start up. Your jabs will beat Fortress after a clank.
  
• Do not throw a grenade. Good Bowsers will be conditioned to run up to you to either klaw (percent lead only) or grounded bomb. Both options defeat the pull of the grenade while heavily punishing a move that is useless in this matchup.
• Just pressure with needles and watch for what Bowser does. If he shields, dash grab. If he jumps, roll and punish or chase into the air. Unless Bowser is bombing from the air, all of your aerials beat ours in terms of priority and speed.

That about sums it up. I play against a skilled Japanese/Korean friend and those are the walls that deny Bowser victory in this matchup. A Shiek of equal skill should have no problems unless something else comes in to play (controller issues or player tilt). Everything else mentioned by people in this thread are completely true. Learn the matchup, never lose, and, if you do manage to mess up, just come back and 3 or 2 stock the Bowser next game. You will always have this one in the bag. Just believe in yourself. Believe and you will succeed.

 

[B!squick]

Or don't and be a bro and let Bowser win.

 

[Shack]

Any Yoshi MU advice? The OP doesn't really say much besides pressure him and that you will get grabbed for trying to block eggs... How do you begin pressure if there is an endless stream of eggs? If you try to short hop in you will get hit by the eggs or up smashed. Dashing is just asking to get punished. So far the only thing I can think of is out lame him and spam needles while dodging his eggs.

Also what is the best way to get out of his B? Mach all buttons, wiggle the stick, both?

 

[Dyce]

Any Yoshi MU advice? The OP doesn't really say much besides pressure him and that you will get grabbed for trying to block eggs... How do you begin pressure if there is an endless stream of eggs? If you try to short hop in you will get hit by the eggs or up smashed. Dashing is just asking to get punished. So far the only thing I can think of is out lame him and spam needles while dodging his eggs.

Also what is the best way to get out of his B? Mach all buttons, wiggle the stick, both?

In my experience, needle spam is definitely our best bet against egg camping. Try to manipulate Yoshi into situations where it's is in range for a grab > fair, just to say an example. If you get the chance, I've found that upairs work really well, just make sure you read whether or not the Yoshi will use it's down B.

And yes, mash the hell out of your controller to get out of its Egg lay.

I apologize for the lack of information. This match up is definitely a hard one at the moment.

 

[Shack]

In my experience, needle spam is definitely our best bet against egg camping. Try to manipulate Yoshi into situations where it's is in range for a grab > fair, just to say an example. If you get the chance, I've found that upairs work really well, just make sure you read whether or not the Yoshi will use it's down B.

And yes, mash the hell out of your controller to get out of its Egg lay.

I apologize for the lack of information. This match up is definitely a hard one at the moment.

Thanks, any info is good info. And I have to test mashing some more. I know against Master Hand's grab move, I actually get out of it at the same speed if I just wiggle the stick vs mashing the buttons and wiggling.

What is Yoshi's strength? Is it mis range, close, far? I can't really tell. He has priority and hard hitting fast attacks, but the egg spam lets him control above and in front of him as well. Maybe if we can define his role as a fighter we can come up with a better strategy.

 

[Conker534]

I was redirected here to ask for indepth help about fighting luigi. I have a specific question about him, how do you guys manage when luigi is spamming fireballs, while shorthopping towards you. I don't really know how to react to it so I end up retreating to the back of the stage where I am cornered. I try shielding the fireballs, but then he runs in and grabs me for free, rolling leaves me open too.

 

[Wasserwipf]

I was redirected here to ask for indepth help about fighting luigi. I have a specific question about him, how do you guys manage when luigi is spamming fireballs, while shorthopping towards you. I don't really know how to react to it so I end up retreating to the back of the stage where I am cornered. I try shielding the fireballs, but then he runs in and grabs me for free, rolling leaves me open too.

Ok, got a few things.
-If you Shield them, ONLY go for powershield. This means popping up your shield the moment you would get hit, shield, and then drop it right away. This should not leave you open. In addition, if you decide to shield longer, learn your out of shield options. You can jump out of a shield and then punish. If hes going for grab, block the fireball and then SHNair oos and he will be the one asking for advice.
-You should be able to crouch under his fireballs (at least when he shorthops them, when he does them groundet, he should have lots of lag, time for you to punish.). This should bring you in a position from where you can approach him (just crawl towards him...) and then attack. Also, it brings you in perfect position for...
-Bouncing Fish. The move is gold against any kind of projectile (-spammer). While they input the Projectiles, you SH BF over it and hit them in lag. They won't see it coming or cannot react to it. Free damage. If the spam is as horrible as you descrie, just spam your BF at him. This should work pretty well, at least until he stops.
-needles. Your Needles are faster and have more range then his fireballs. Let him eat his own medicine.

For the Luigi matchup overall I can't give much advice, except that his recovery is really bad, so you can play the little mac game with him.

 

[Conker534]

Awesome! I'll do that as much as possible, I can't wait to try it on him. Thanks a lot Wasserwipf

 

[suarsuar]

what is diddy kong.

what. even.

 

[-Se7en-]

Just leaving a note about Sheik vs Rosalina.

When Rosalina charges Luma shot, it will only fire Luma if it was unharmed throughout the charge animation. In other words, if we hit Luma as it's being charged Rosalina has to stop charging Luma shot because it won't be effective which gives us time for a quick Bouncing Fish.

Simply put : Throw a needle at Luma when Rosalina charges Luma Shot. Luma will remain by her side instead of being thrown out. (Free Bouncing Fish).

 

[saviorslegacy]

Thank you everyone for contributing. I will go through and update the thread with all of the new info from this thread and the ZSS thread that was made momentarily.
I have been hearing a lot of talk about Diddy Kong. Please give you input on him.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Diddy is the matchup I struggle most with. I feel like it's pretty much impossible to win agai nst a Diddy with equal skill, or a good one at lease (that would imply diddy requires any skill, heh). In all occasions that he manages to grab me, I couldn't vector out of his dthrows and a uair or bair is always followed. I just can't escape it. Banana is extremely annoying. He's so agile that Bouncing Fish is very hard to land, and his Side B is extremely annoying. Additionally, Sheik can't kill him with uair or something unless its at least 150% (assuming no rage on Sheik I guess), while Diddy has a lot of easy kill moves, and that really hurts.

I feel like it's an easy 70:30 for Diddy. The ******'s dthrows are ridiculous.

 

[Dyce]

I feel like the matchup is really difficult for Sheik. I don't have much advice other than to watch those down throw to uair combos. I can beat my friend's diddy, but I've seen some crazy players that just constantly 2 or 3 stock other players.

 

[Dissent]

This is my personal hardest matchup as a Diddy. Her shield pressure is strong when used properly and she does well with a banana in hand. If Diddy is above Sheik she can easily juggle him, so he's going to want to try his best to stay grounded with a banana in hand/go for the ledge when recovering. I'm unsure of her barrel gimp options in S4, but it's something for you mains to look in to if you want an upper hand in that scenario. She can definitely DI out of DThrow to UAir at typical kill percents, from my experience. I believe your rising FAir picks up our bananas if I'm remembering correctly, so if we're next to it you can pick it up and pressure at the same time. Keep us near the edge and FTilt/Jab/risingFAir responsibly for pressure. Warning; At high percents, we can SDI your rapid jab in to an out prioritizing BAir that can kill you.

This matchup feels very close to even, I wouldn't say it's anything more than +1 Diddy's favor. Sheik getting through a peanut/banana camp needs smart reads and timing to break through when not in the lead, but when she gets in she certainly can do a lot of damage and ruin our stage control.

 

[Orion*]

diddys main weakness imo is lack of a non committed approach. So imo sheik just needs to zone until you have stage control and bait out diddys bananas so shield pressure becomes a lot easier. Once you're inside it's essentially the same as brawl in terms of covering diddys landing options, and imo sheik does a really good job at it.

I feel like atm it's 6:4 but only because uair but lol that's what it is. Sheik can definitely win, and i could see the mu being even if I labbed my followups better, there are a lot of mistakes on both sides here but it's not a bad set to watch regardless

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suLObPPSSAk

 

[Absol]

We can also use bouncing fish to attempt to get out of Uair strings so we arent killed around 95% when they are trying to sweet spot it. I know our nair can challenge Diddy's side b pretty effectively if timed corrected. Other than that you know Diddy has good throws so a lot of diddys will be grab happy. Simply bait out their grabs and punish. I honestly dont think the match up is that terrible. Speed is what will be our saving grace in this match up. I agree with 60-40 Diddy.