Nicknyte talks about Luigi: The Thread - Luigi Discussion

[Thoraxe]

what do you guys think is the best general luigi map? I'm leaning towards FD right now, although i love flying off platforms with fireballs as much as the next weegy main, the ability to juggle heavies across stage and space out fellow floaties is pretty rad. second best is probably DL.

 

[Winston]

I hate FD vs. Falco. (I can't powershield though, maybe that makes it good)

I'm not a big fan of FD vs. Marth.

I don't think it's his best stage vs. Falcon.

I dunno, I feel like Luigi's aerial mobility is so damn awful that not giving him platforms to work with makes him even more one dimensional than he already is. Then again, platforms + space also lets fast opponents (fox, falcon) camp him if they choose to.

Yoshi's is a great stage for Luigi against characters without ******** aerial control above them imo because he covers the stage in like a single ledgedash and it's a lot easier for him to control space and reach platforms with his aerials.

I like Yoshi's AND DL a lot, strangely enough.

So...

Jigglypuff, Samus, Peach, ICs: Yoshi's and DL. It may be contradictory but both stages seem to work out. Early KOs and survivability are both great in these matchups because Luigi is better at both than these characters, generally.

Falcon: Yoshi's. Discussed previously. FD should be fine but I feel like Falcon players are more comfortable on FD.

Falco: Yoshi's or DL. Either you want to give him less space to camp or give yourself more space for you to escape pressure, depending on how they play.

Fox: probably FD. the CG is pretty valuable, and he's real good at jumping on platforms.

Marth: DL by a mile. Too bad they always ban it. I end up going to Battlefield cause seriously, I need some options if they ever hit me into the air. FoD might be the best neutral if I didnt suck *** on it, not sure. Stadium's the second choice if it's a CP, of course.

Sheik, Ganon: FD. Sheik abuses platforms way better than you and Ganon swats you out of the sky if you attempt to go above him ever. Again I have no idea how these matchups go on FoD.

IN CONCLUSION I think it's too close to call one "best stage". Most Luigi players just auto pick FD though if you want to say that then go ahead. I auto-pick DL a lot out of comfort, but it's not theoretically correct a lot of the time.

I think factoring your opponent's style should determine your choice in a lot of the matchups.

 

[Pakman]

I agree with pretty much everything Winston said, except for the floaties stages. I have a habit of killing floaties with up smash and the occasional shoryuken. I'd much prefer a stage with a lower ceiling. Yoshis, FD and Battlefield are my goto stages.

 

[Winston]

I think Luigi kinda runs circles around the slower floaties on DL. The extra space + high platforms let him get out of most pressured situations. They also have a pretty hard time KOing him because they're usually KOing off the side, while you KO off the top. It does add an extra... 15%? compared to FD for your usmash KOs, but it adds like 50% sometimes for their horizontal KOs. Peach and Samus are pretty bad at edgeguarding Luigi.

Jiggs is pretty good at edgeguarding Luigi though so I could see FD being a better stage in the matchup. I feel like DL platforms give you options for attacking at different heights, which is valuable since it's hard to challenge Jiggs' bair if you're on the same horizontal plane. It's probably my personal bias that's making me think DL is a better stage.

If you are comfortable with close quarters combat though I would agree Yoshi's is the best vs. the floaties

this is probably why I'm uncomfortable with the idea of not having space vs. Peach

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7_2Y6_h8XM#t=4m17s

 

[Thoraxe]

lol armada, gg on DL though, minus the SD. i'm tellin ya, FD is a good choice for just about all floaties, especially peach imo. Do you still play luigi Winston, or are you exclusively foxin in tourney?

 

[Winston]

I go Fox and a little Marth now, no Luigi. I feel like my Luigi is pretty bad now because it's out of practice, plus I want to learn all the matchups as Fox so I don't use him to counterpick.

Why is FD better than DL necessarily? slightly earlier KOs? I think Luigi's survivability makes up for it, and I think he uses the platforms a lot better than Peach does.

 

[Thoraxe]

Why is FD better than DL necessarily? slightly earlier KOs? I think Luigi's survivability makes up for it, and I think he uses the platforms a lot better than Peach does.

Having Nair, Usmash, Dsmash and pings kill at 100-140 is really nice compared to having peach climb around 200 on DL. Luigi's survivability is nicer on DL but it benefits the other floaties with better recoveries more than luigi. I respect your argument, but i think peach is much stronger on a platform than weegy with her Dsmash, float cancels and turnips, although WL and WD off of plats does help his approaches slightly, you're better off staying grounded and trying for the grab (Jab pressure! ) aside from that, having a flat stage helps luigi because other chars can't really out maneuver him there due to the lack of platforms. WDing around the entire stage faster than fox and maybe falcon can get around, and just using his huge vertical distance to meet opponents in the air usually works out pretty well for me (excluding obvious **** like challenging falco's dair, peach's bair, etc). So without all of those nifty platforms, spacing around the other chars with WD becomes a whole lot easier and turns more into a punishing game with weegy's awesome combos out of upthrow. tech chasing and CG has never been so fluid. but yeah, that's just my opinion on it.

lol fox and marth are my secondaries as well, my fox is only good if i'm "in the zone" though, and i start to feel bad after playing marth too long,although he probably has the slickest combos in the game on heavies (excluding )

 

[Thoraxe]

shout out to Abate at sudden death 4, throwing out so many shoryukens that somewhere ryu is filing a law suit for copy right infringement. represent

 

[Rubyiris]

Great advice if you like winning.

 

[pingding]

lol i knew this has nothing to do with this but playing zelda has taught how to play defensive against marth so now i can finally beat marth with luigi i have make him come to me

 

[*georgeH]

I feel like sheik and falcon really destroy luigi in "defying" him of approach options cuz of how hard her ftilt and his nair can outrange and how falcons uair combos him badly. I happen to have no experience against sheik so I dont quite know how bad grab and tilt combos are against him, but how do you guys handle/use proper defense against these characters, like, what openings should I look for in neutral to start a punish + pressure game?

 

[Wenbobular]

Having Nair, Usmash, Dsmash and pings kill at 100-140 is really nice compared to having peach climb around 200 on DL. Luigi's survivability is nicer on DL but it benefits the other floaties with better recoveries more than luigi. I respect your argument, but i think peach is much stronger on a platform than weegy with her Dsmash, float cancels and turnips, although WL and WD off of plats does help his approaches slightly, you're better off staying grounded and trying for the grab (Jab pressure! ) aside from that, having a flat stage helps luigi because other chars can't really out maneuver him there due to the lack of platforms. WDing around the entire stage faster than fox and maybe falcon can get around, and just using his huge vertical distance to meet opponents in the air usually works out pretty well for me (excluding obvious **** like challenging falco's dair, peach's bair, etc). So without all of those nifty platforms, spacing around the other chars with WD becomes a whole lot easier and turns more into a punishing game with weegy's awesome combos out of upthrow. tech chasing and CG has never been so fluid. but yeah, that's just my opinion on it.

lol fox and marth are my secondaries as well, my fox is only good if i'm "in the zone" though, and i start to feel bad after playing marth too long,although he probably has the slickest combos in the game on heavies (excluding )

Not that I play Luigi but having platforms seems way better for Luigi when it comes to getting around ... everything you mentioned

It's not like Peach is Dsmashing on platforms hoping Luigi is going to jump into it like she does vs fastfallers (still not very legitimate but sometimes you just get gotten by Peach on a platform)

 

[Thoraxe]

I feel like sheik and falcon really destroy luigi in "defying" him of approach options cuz of how hard her ftilt and his nair can outrange and how falcons uair combos him badly. I happen to have no experience against sheik so I dont quite know how bad grab and tilt combos are against him, but how do you guys handle/use proper defense against these characters, like, what openings should I look for in neutral to start a punish + pressure game?

i don't know about sheik, but for falcon grabs help a **** load, so if he throws out a smash or sideB or whatever, WD grab his *** and upthrow and juggle him. if he's playing defensively enough, don't bother approaching him with anything slower than your jab/grab, because he will punish Oos. if he approaches with nairs, shield them, the gentlemen and grab his *** after that third punch. as far as the upair combos go, sometimes i'll take the risk and use my second jump away, and if he isn't completely underneath you, its possible to trade his upair with dair, if he isn't tipping you with his long *** legs.
Who has good sheik experience here, how do you get by her fairs, bairs, needles, and edge guarding?

 

[Winston]

short version:

try to get under her jumps with uair/utilt, space hella bair/ftilt, maybe do some weird empty hop grab/ftilt stuff as a mixup, CC, use tornado to try to confuse them when you're in a bad spot.

long version:

Sheik isn't going to approach you very much so think like you're a Falcon player - fake a lot of attacks but don't actually commit, and then occasionally you actually do the attack. Use all the tools at your disposal (empty hops, wavelands, wavelanding on platforms, delayed aerial timings) to make your movement and attack patterns less predictable.

Keep the easily punishable stuff to a minimum. This means don't do early aerials when she's on the ground, and try not to throw out stuff she can punish by shielding. If you do want to attack her while she's on the ground with something laggy at least try to do the wd smash so you go past her shield and she can't grab you.

Getting directly under her is really good. Whenever you get into that position, patiently move around under her and try to poke her with uairs. You can also try to CC the move that she tries to get down with (probably bair) and dsmash her.

If their DI sucks you can probably spam Luigi moves and **** them whenever you get a combo starter, but if their DI sucks somewhat less the best combos are things like utilt -> uair -> something. (doesnt have to be that exact string but you get the idea). If they go behind you from the utilt then backwards uair -> dj bair -> waveland off the platform to another bair raaapes.

When she has you cornered and shielding and is doing good shield pressure (repeated spaced fairs), chill out for a moment and don't always roll; that's what most decent to good sheiks are looking for. It's a pretty bad position but you can retreat to the edge and ledgedash to give yourself some options. Once you've established that you won't roll every time like a noob you can start getting away with more rolls.

If she's doing bad pressure (unspaced ftilt/jab) shieldgrab while CCing and then punish.

CC her stuff but don't always expect to be able to get a direct reward if they are good. A CCed ftilt should get you a dsmash, but they can often shield before you can dsmash them if its an AC fair and you fake CCed it. Still, the more stuff you CC, the less reward she gets off of hitting you.

Try to nair out of her combos if they're bad but if they aren't don't always nair cause that's what they're waiting for

when recovering, save your double jump and use side Bs to get close to the stage, then use your DJ/tornado stuff once you're near the stage and really low and hope she messes up the edgehogging. They probably will most of the time. If they try to edgeguard you from onstage you'll make it back every time.

 

[pingding]

I feel like sheik and falcon really destroy luigi in "defying" him of approach options cuz of how hard her ftilt and his nair can outrange and how falcons uair combos him badly. I happen to have no experience against sheik so I dont quite know how bad grab and tilt combos are against him, but how do you guys handle/use proper defense against these characters, like, what openings should I look for in neutral to start a punish + pressure game?

my friend plays shiek as his main so i had to learn to fight shiek what i do is approach wavedash in to a downsmash or upsmash and try to follow those up either an utilt or uair
it works for a while but i cant manage to get a kill hit that much

 

[*georgeH]

I like the idea of fake approaches against sheik or as a general tactic so i'll see how that goes. also, how do you guys decide when you want to pressure with jab as opposed to grabs, tornado, or whatever else?

 

[Pakman]

Against competent players, they will CC your tornado and punish you. I would not rely on that.

 

[Wenbobular]

Or just shield -> wavedash OoS

 

[McNinja]

Umm newbie here. How do you drop cancel? Is it just a luigi thing?

 

[Ch3s]

Someone will probably post the video for it, because there is a very good one. However in short the idea is that upon dropping from a platform, use bair or nair extremely quickly, and IF IT HITS SOMETHING then luigi will remain on the platform, and the moves hitbox will have come out. It works with certain moves, such as falcos bair and quite a few other bairs, but like i said when someone posts the video for it it shows all that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORiX3B9aiaE

I've never seen someone really apply it effectively but on paper it gives more power to his platform combos, which is kind of cute I guess.

 

[Ch3s]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn7ZdA-dTx4

Here is a more luigi specific one with different situations. The beginning is the best way to practice it, training mode with stars so that you are making contact without the enemy moving. Shield Dropping is becoming more and more popular, so its possible that this becomes less situational, but it is certainly still not the most practical of things to practice. (I've heard a lot of people who play with abate say that he uses it a lot, maybe check his vids out)

 

[McNinja]

Oh ok awesome. I can understand how it would be hard to apply. Thanks!

 

[pingding]

wow ive never seen drop cancelling actually being used that amazing

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Drop canceling can be mastered fairly quickly with Luigi. Just remember that you have to make contact with an opponent for it to work. Really, if you can rise with the cyclone, you can do this

Yeah, it's very situational. But still, it's good to keep in mind that it's an option.

 

[pingding]

speaking of the cyclone whats a good way to practice that

 

[Wenbobular]

Mash B a lot
Don't worry Eddy Mexico sucks at it and he's like the best Luigi around

 

[Ch3s]

speaking of the cyclone whats a good way to practice that

One way is to try to use a green missile, and then start mashing b while the animation is still going on. That always helps me to get height on it, because I always start off fairly slowly. Otherwise besides making sure to use your whole arm to mash rather than just your finger, there isn't much to do. Just make sure you can get a bit of height, I usually use it if I am too close for a missile but far enough away from the ledge that I can't upb to it, so it's usually just horizontal distance

 

[*georgeH]

I hate to ask about marth knowing how its probably been talked about, but how you do you deal with the defensive ones that pretty much wont approach? I've been doing kind of an in n out wd approach with varied moves to see how they respond and pretty much using that to read habits and hopefully read a roll/punish a missed sword swing, but I doubt this is the most effective

 

[Ch3s]

I hate to ask about marth knowing how its probably been talked about, but how you do you deal with the defensive ones that pretty much wont approach? I've been doing kind of an in n out wd approach with varied moves to see how they respond and pretty much using that to read habits and hopefully read a roll/punish a missed sword swing, but I doubt this is the most effective

Actually, you are pretty close. Try spacing sh->fair->nair or dair->nair, or just replace nair with waveland. That is especially good if Marth starts dtilting you. Also, if you get into the air, just di to one ledge or the other and make it back from there. Lots of other small tips are very player-specific, I play against Taj and Tai mostly so I actually havent completely figured out what to do. Scare him into shield with jab->dsmash mix ups then start grabbing is usually the best way to do it. Attacking his shield with ftilt or dsmash and letting him grab is bad, so I use quite a few jab mix ups.

Also can someone please check out my videos and give me tips? They are in the thread right below this. I saw Pakman on here the other day, it would be great if you could look at them.

 

[Vist]

Actually, you are pretty close. Try spacing sh->fair->nair or dair->nair, or just replace nair with waveland. That is especially good if Marth starts dtilting you. Also, if you get into the air, just di to one ledge or the other and make it back from there. Lots of other small tips are very player-specific, I play against Taj and Tai mostly so I actually havent completely figured out what to do. Scare him into shield with jab->dsmash mix ups then start grabbing is usually the best way to do it. Attacking his shield with ftilt or dsmash and letting him grab is bad, so I use quite a few jab mix ups.

Also can someone please check out my videos and give me tips? They are in the thread right below this. I saw Pakman on here the other day, it would be great if you could look at them.

I just posted some things. It's not very thorough since I'm pretty lazy when it comes to posting lol.... I think it covers most of the real fundamental things I would change tho

 

[*georgeH]

Good to know I'm on the right track. Getting dtilted isnt a problem for me but rather getting grabbed and uptilted sucks, so I'm gonna follow that jab/dsmash/intimidation advice to see how it goes. Actually, getting dtilted is a problem for me but only when I'm getting edgeguarded, them edgetechs feel impossible. Any good ways to practice them?

As for your video critique, I'm a pretty inexperienced player, especially to Luigi but a couple things:
as you said in your thread, you do ledgehop fair quite alot. I don't think you hit any on Okami; he more than likely expected you to do that each time which is why he spaced pretty well whenever you got on the ledge. Try to think how a sheik might want to defend when they see you on the ledge and plan it 2 moves ahead. Also in your match against him, most of your cyclones didn't hit and seemed random, but I have nothing more to really add since I dont know much about the better times to use it, just something to think about. Against Frosty, you missed a couple edgeguards I noticed that probably could've been handled with ftilt or even a fireball to throw them off. Against both of them, I noticed you tend to use wd oos in neutral position when attempting to approach but you never used it when you were under shield pressure, so that might be worth experimenting with.

 

[Vist]

Actually, getting dtilted is a problem for me but only when I'm getting edgeguarded, them edgetechs feel impossible. Any good ways to practice them?

best way imo:

- go to training mode on FD
- get a motion sensor bomb
- roll towards edge
- jump -> dthrow bomb (should hit the edge)
- recover

 

[Blea Gelo]

best way imo:

- go to training mode on FD
- get a motion sensor bomb
- roll towards edge
- jump -> dthrow bomb (should hit the edge)
- recover

i've spent to many hours of my life doing this bruh. lol

 

[Winston]

Actually, getting dtilted is a problem for me but only when I'm getting edgeguarded, them edgetechs feel impossible. Any good ways to practice them?

Sweetspot with up B better. It'll miss.

 

[*georgeH]

Forward smash and dair get me alot too, but vists helpful practice method already has me teching a good amount of the time, just gotta work on other nuances in the matchup

 

[Wenbobular]

Good sweetspotting gets past like everything though

 

[condemned_soul]

how do you buffer luigis down B and how do you hold the controller when yo do luigi's down B

 

[Vist]

i've spent to many hours of my life doing this bruh. lol

lol yea man same here

how do you buffer luigis down B and how do you hold the controller when yo do luigi's down B

hmmm I don't think you can buffer the down b

also I just hold it like normal but I've seen some people like boss take his right hand off the controller and just tap with the side of his index finger + thumb. whatever works for you is best

 

[Blea Gelo]

how do you buffer luigis down B and how do you hold the controller when yo do luigi's down B

i let off the controller, throw myself to the floor and start rolling, that works