Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[HyperSomari64]

Every Kirby character that people speculate about for Smash has the power of flight. It comes free with being playable.

But Adeleine is a puny human, how do she fly without the help of her paintings? Spinning her paintbrush at mach speed?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But Adeleine is a puny human, how do she fly without the help of her paintings?

That's why Ribbon came along

 

[Perkilator]

Every Kirby character that people speculate about for Smash has the power of flight. It comes free with being playable.

Actually, I just remembered that in Magolor Epilogue, Magolor floats whenever you hold A after a jump, but unless you upgrade the levitation to maximum, Magolor gets tired if you hold A too long. If Magolor was playable in Smash, would you guys be okay with Magolor's "double jump" having him levitate for a bit before getting tired and gliding back down?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Actually, I just remembered that in Magolor Epilogue, Magolor floats whenever you hold A after a jump, but unless you upgrade the levitation to maximum, Magolor gets tired if you hold A too long. If Magolor was playable in Smash, would you guys be okay with Magolor's "double jump" having him levitate for a bit before getting tired and gliding back down.

Honestly, this sounds more like an Up B to me. Bringing back Pit's recovery from Brawl and giving it to Magolor.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

Some opinions on current characters:

Spoiler

Ganondorf is extremely fun, and I think he's half right on showing off what the character can do, but has some weird stuff, and doesn't explore him fully. Volcano Kick has very little point to it since Warlock Punch exists, and is way flashier for a "haha funny slow move". He also has almost 0 options for dealing with zoning, and while that should always be a weakness of the character, he should at least have a good option, even if it's a risky one. I like MockRock's suggestion of making Wizard's Foot projectile invincible. Wouldn't help him against Min Min, but that's a Min Min problem. Beyond that, I think giving him a nerfed version of Peach float would be neat. Definitely don't give him float cancel aerials, but giving him some air stalling capabilities would be cool. Don't make it his neutral special though. Mods seem to do that a lot, but I don't think that would feel all that great to play.
Make the command menu pop up on top of Hero as well as over his UI, and add icons. Beyond that, I'd be interested to see the mechanic reworked slightly, taking inspiration from Asuka R# and allowing him to store command options or something. If that doesn't work, then I'd be fine with just the changes from my first sentence.
Please do something with the dead buttons duo. Characters should not have special moves that aren't useful in any context, including casual play.
I imagine the state he's in is because Copy Abilities ruin everything. Even so I'd at least like Inhale to be a functional move outside of casual play. Let him combo into it or something.
Little Mac is weird. His ground game isn't actually better than everyone else's, but it does feel like it is, so people are incentivized to camp him, and he straight up loses to circle camping. Aside from tightening up his ground game, I'd say give him a way to meet opponents on platforms that isn't just burn your double jump and hope they don't stop you.
A little weird to see him popping up, but with Rage being a thing I guess it makes sense. Honestly the move set itself is solid, it's Aura that's causing problems. From what I've been told, it was perfectly fine in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, but ruined by the extremes it went to afterward. If you wanted the extremes, I'd make it so that Lucario is really good at comboing at low percents, and sacrifices combos for raw damage at high percents when you'd generally want that K.O. power anyway (doesn't quite work if you're behind but eh).
With readability issues and mechanics that incentivise killing Pikmin, Olimar has some big problems. My only idea on how to help with one of those problems would be a new up special: Pikmin Rocket. The backpack the captains wear turns into a rocket belt looking thing, and after a slight delay, launches them upward (could have a hitbox, could not). The more Pikmin you have, the higher you go.
OK we've had so many tap = this and hold = that moves that Spin Dash and Spin Charge being two separate moves feels super freaking dated. If you must keep both, just have him hold the button for Spin Dash and rapid tap it for Spin Charge. After that, I don't really know what to do with him exactly, but you'd probably have to also do something else. Hit and run makes sense for his playstyle, but his ability to stop approaches by curling up into a ball is really silly, and that's on top of being able to disingage super quickly.
I actually like Monado Arts. If you wanted to make a change to them you could, but I think they work pretty decently as they are. There are a lot of thoughts that go into this, so if you want I can elaborate, but for now I'll just say that my only hang up is that Vision is kinda boring compared to how it works in the original game. There's not too much that can be done about that though.
He tries to emulate Kirby bosses, but only takes the part where they do chonky damage and are slower than cold molasses. Unsurprisingly, he's got just about only one tool that can be considered good and even that is a double edged sword. I honestly feel like King Dedede should have a great neutral as a swordfighter, but make it really easy for him to overextend, and extremely punishable if/when he does. That way he takes the dynamic of Kirby Bosses who throw out huge and uncontestable attacks, but leave themselves wide open when they miss.

 

[Ivander]

Up B is Rollout except it goes up.

So shouldn't it be called Rollup?

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

So shouldn't it be called Rollup?
View attachment 388654

And it looks like a strawberry cream puff, so does that make it a fruit rollup?

 

[UserKev]

Personally I think some of the reworks people suggest aren't good ideas. There are veterans that need changes, but I dunno if say, removing FLUDD is a good idea. The move does it's intended purpose fine and it works. It's fun to use in casual and competitive settings and it's a clear reference to a popular game. I'd argue it even teaches new players about windboxes.

We should be focusing on moves that don't work or are mostly just filler.

Think of things like Jigglypuff's Rollout. It has no real place in Jigglypuff's design as an air focused character, it doesn't see much use in general and unlike Sing, it's not super important to the character.

There are some characters that need an overhaul like Ganondorf or Sonic, but I think characters like Olimar or Lucario could just use some new animations while keeping the core moveset the same. Someone like Little Mac just needs rebalancing and tweaking.

Well written analogy but I have to disagree. Fludd is very outdated that you can make it a alternate custom. Give Mario his ground pound.

 

[StrangeKitten]

One thing that makes Olimar frustrating to play against is when you throw out an attack that seems like it would get the Pikmin off of you. Then it doesn't. I suppose there does need to be some kind of line between keeping Pikmin useful and making them too easy to kill, but something about it feels very unclear.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

One thing that makes Olimar frustrating to play against is when you throw out an attack that seems like it would get the Pikmin off of you. Then it doesn't. I suppose there does need to be some kind of line between keeping Pikmin useful and making them too easy to kill, but something about it feels very unclear.

We could just reduce the Pikmin damage.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think at this point there’s going to be a contingent of fans that would prefer changes to fighters because they’re simply bored with them. For some the Smash conception of what Mario or Samus are has just ceased being interesting and some new approach to them from the vast amount of games is just going to be more interesting than select nerfs/buffs.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

One thing that makes Olimar frustrating to play against is when you throw out an attack that seems like it would get the Pikmin off of you. Then it doesn't. I suppose there does need to be some kind of line between keeping Pikmin useful and making them too easy to kill, but something about it feels very unclear.

Some of this I bet is due to how swordfighters work. They have a lot of disjointed range, but generally have no hitboxes on their body which can sometimes give them blindspots if you're too close, and since latched Pikmin are literally on top of them...

Oddly enough, Wii Fit Trainer is like this, but no disjoints. Combined with their weird attack angles it makes moves miss a lot more than it would if they were built like a normal brawler.

 

[Idon]

I do think the conversation surrounding changing movesets increasing moveset complexity ignores a lot of the details about the characters and simplifies the actual reality of the game.

For one, I don't think there is a straight correlation with having more moves explicitly translates to more complexity. If we define complexity by how difficult it is to grasp a character's fundamental traits and then begin to perform with them confidently, there are many characters that don't follow the trend.
For example, compare Hero to Sheik. Despite having the most special moves in the game, I find that he is very simple to play as his overall moveset is very basic and his Menu options are all simple despite their variety. Meanwhile Sheik has retained most of her moveset since Melee and despite that requires so much basic knowledge of every single one of her moves and how they perform at different enemy percentages to even be at a baseline level with her.

Secondly, most characters don't even make full use of the movesets they already have. If you look at the roster as a whole, there are very many characters that ignore several of their moves in most circumstances or are just... unusable at all.
Even ignoring obvious examples like Little Mac's aerials, think about how many moves are useful in very specific circumstances like being a projectile reflector or only being usable on the ground or being only useful to recover. For most of the game, those moves are dead slots. I doubt it would break Villager players' minds if their upB did a different move on the ground ala Link than just being a misinput.

Personally I think with a wide roster like this having differing complexity for different characters is totally fine and should actually be encouraged. While there's an appeal in characters that are easy to pick up, having a character that demands as much from the player as the player asks of the character is pretty important in maintaining long-lasting appeal. A "solved" game is close to a dead one.

Besides, even if you personally don't care about the bells and whistles, there's nothing stopping you from enjoying just what you can grasp and not going to the deep-end. The people that do like the additional features of a character will appreciate it themselves. Casual smash fans aren't exactly pissed they took out tripping to appease the competitively minded and I don't think I've turned on singleplayer in years.

 

[Kirbeh]

The practical difference between Melee adding side specials and up/down throws and a new Smash adding a new, universal tool like, say, an air grab is the scale of work that would need to be done to implement each change. Melee only had to update 12 characters to add new moves, the next Smash would need to update 40+ characters to give a new tool even half of Ultimate's roster. That's at least one full new character in terms of hitboxes, hurtboxes, and animations and even that would mean that a massive chunk of Ultimate's cast wouldn't be able to return for the base game.

Kneecapping the roster like this in the interest of having gameplay options for hardcore fans is getting dangerously close to "These characters are just functions" territory. It doesn't have the same element of being influenced by corporate politics, but it does repeat the same neglect for casual audiences that are primarily tied to the series for its characters rather than gameplay that we saw in MvCI. "Mario can now do this new thing" is of little solace to players who lose their favourite characters and now have to find a new one, especially if the number of characters is notably thinner relative to Ultimate.

I can understand the appeal of reworks in the abstract, but it's one of those things that comes with too much baggage at a large scale to be practicable.

I mean, I would argue Smash Bros. itself has the reached the point of being too large scale to be practicable. It's why Sakurai has spent the past 5-ish years telling people not to expect EiH or a roster of such size again.

A good chunk of Ultimate's cast is already unlikely to return for the next roster's base game. This thread already spends all day, every day arguing about what that exact number (and who that) might be, but cuts are bound to happen regardless.

I also disagree with the notion that wanting more for characters is viewing them as "functions." I wouldn't care to give characters new options if I wasn't already invested in them, let alone play the game. Plus, there are plenty of cases where one might like a character but dislike their execution in Smash.

I also disagree with trying new things in gameplay to be neglectful of casuals. New tools/gameplay features do not, and generally have not, been for the competitive audience when it comes to Smash. Final Smashes in their original form were purely for casual play and tripping was- a mechanic...

Even the additions of new attacks from 64 to Melee would be neutral additions in terms of casual/competitive. Characters being able to do "cool new thing" services players of all skill levels.

I don't want them to cull the roster in service of new mechanics, but I would just as easily say that it'd be kneecapping the rest of the game to focus solely on the roster size. The massive roster is one of Smash's major selling points now, but I don't think it's quite fair to say that casuals (or any player really) wouldn't be concerned about gameplay or other content.
As for the last point, generally speaking I do agree. I'm one of the people you're talking about in fact. And I have been consistently ().
I'm already expecting to go into next game missing some combination of most of my favorite characters, (like )

Again, I don't want a huge roster culling for the sake of it (nor do I expect one honestly), but if cuts are already going to happen, I simply disagree with the idea that they shouldn't try new things because it might take resources away from the old. That was already a given.

Last thing I'll add is that you could still add a new move or mechanic or what have you without completely decimating the roster. Adding several changes like past games did with a smaller roster is probably unlikely but I think you're overestimating how intensive it'd be to add just one thing (maybe two if you're feeling spicy.) Especially so if they do wind up using Ultimate as a base, which I imagine they might, given the time they spent recreating all the stages and updating characters, etc. (And historically they've always reused/recycled when they could.)

To be perfectly honest, your comment kind of reads like overcorrecting for the sake of protecting the roster size. They couldn't possibly do "x" because "y" has to remain untouched. No offense intended. I just feel people will just have to make peace with an odd 10 or dozen or so cuts (give or take), and I do expect Sakurai to try something new, even if it's some small baby step change or revisiting an earlier idea like air smashes or something.

 

[Idon]

To be perfectly honest, your comment kind of reads like overcorrecting for the sake of protecting the roster size. They couldn't possibly do "x" because "y" has to remain untouched. No offense intended. I just feel people will just have to make peace with an odd 10 or dozen or so cuts (give or take), and I do expect Sakurai to try something new, even if it's some small baby step change or revisiting an earlier idea like air smashes or something.

I want to highlight this part because this is what I feel a lot of these arguments devolve into:

 

[Kirbeh]

I want to highlight this part because this is what I feel a lot of these arguments devolve into:

I'm guilty as charged myself. There have been a few times where I somehow skipped a whole sentence and misinterpreted things.

I do feel like people tend to jump to conclusions regarding certain topics though. Like, with character reworks for example, you might say "it'd be nice if they tweaked Sonic and Ganon" (which is pretty common) and the response you might get is "do you realize how much work it'd be to completely overhaul every move on every character on the roster!"

Though sometimes it's not really going straight from one post to another. You'll get cases of multiple responses slowly losing the plot and moving into that direction, with someone then making a response to a game of telephone more or less.

 

[ScrubReborn]

A little weird to see him popping up, but with Rage being a thing I guess it makes sense. Honestly the move set itself is solid, it's Aura that's causing problems. From what I've been told, it was perfectly fine in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, but ruined by the extremes it went to afterward.

Oh man, Lucario... They destroyed him. If any Smash character got flanderized, it was him. This set of sentences sums him up well enough, but I feel like doing a extended cut because man, the devs throttled him after Brawl.

Spoiler: Lucario rant, kinda long

His Aura gimmick was, like you said, perfect in Brawl. It worked as a boost for him, but it wasn't overwhelming and he wasn't helpless without it. It wasn't his entire Smash personality. That was perfect. They didn't need to do anything else.

But in Smash 4... man, I can't stress how much I hate Smash 4 Lucario. It's like they saw the strawmen of him being a flea at 0% and a nuke at 100% some casuals spread and thought "yeah let's make it real." Playing him at 0% in 4 feels like playing a mentally challenged toddler, its staggering how useless he is. Then they try to make up for it by ramping aura up to where he can KO Bowser at like 50% when he's at like 120% or so, which just makes it worse, because when you go from 0 to 100 that fast it just does not feel like you earned it, it's like your dad came on the field to bail you out.

Like I said, Brawl Aura was a supplement that was appreciated but he didn't need. He still functioned as a fighter without it. In Smash 4 tho? He dosen't. The mechanic is literally just coddling him. You can't do anything without aura and you become busted with it. It literally is just "you need to run around like a baby and get hurt a lot to actually be useable." No substance at all, its mindless and shallow. He felt like a meme fighter to me, just a ridiculous caricature of his Brawl self from someone that didn't understand what made it work.

It seems like the devs realized they meme-ified him in Ultimate and tried to make him a serious fighter again but they didn't go far enough. The tweaks they made were passive and now it just feels weird. He still feels useless without aura but he doesn't feel ridiculous at max either. He feels like the devs were fighting with each other when developing him about wheter he should be a real fighter or a meme again, and he just ends up the worst of all worlds.

TLDR: Lucario is a cautionary tale in when you take a good gimmick that added depth to a fighter and make it their entire identiy. The fighter just becomes a parody of themselves. Honestly I want them to just wipe out everything they've done with him and revert him to his Brawl self, he's a lost cause now. If they really want the gross excess of Smash 4 "MAX AURA" 'cario, idk, just let him keep slowly going up in power past 172% all the way to 999%. At least that way it'd just be a fun Easter egg.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I dunno if say, removing FLUDD is a good idea.

It's a great idea. It's a reference nobody likes and a mechanic that doesn't belong on the guy that's basically the default character.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I do think the conversation surrounding changing movesets increasing moveset complexity ignores a lot of the details about the characters and simplifies the actual reality of the game.

For one, I don't think there is a straight correlation with having more moves explicitly translates to more complexity. If we define complexity by how difficult it is to grasp a character's fundamental traits and then begin to perform with them confidently, there are many characters that don't follow the trend.
For example, compare Hero to Sheik. Despite having the most special moves in the game, I find that he is very simple to play as his overall moveset is very basic and his Menu options are all simple despite their variety. Meanwhile Sheik has retained most of her moveset since Melee and despite that requires so much basic knowledge of every single one of her moves and how they perform at different enemy percentages to even be at a baseline level with her.

Secondly, most characters don't even make full use of the movesets they already have. If you look at the roster as a whole, there are very many characters that ignore several of their moves in most circumstances or are just... unusable at all.
Even ignoring obvious examples like Little Mac's aerials, think about how many moves are useful in very specific circumstances like being a projectile reflector or only being usable on the ground or being only useful to recover. For most of the game, those moves are dead slots. I doubt it would break Villager players' minds if their upB did a different move on the ground ala Link than just being a misinput.

Personally I think with a wide roster like this having differing complexity for different characters is totally fine and should actually be encouraged. While there's an appeal in characters that are easy to pick up, having a character that demands as much from the player as the player asks of the character is pretty important in maintaining long-lasting appeal. A "solved" game is close to a dead one.

Besides, even if you personally don't care about the bells and whistles, there's nothing stopping you from enjoying just what you can grasp and not going to the deep-end. The people that do like the additional features of a character will appreciate it themselves. Casual smash fans aren't exactly pissed they took out tripping to appease the competitively minded and I don't think I've turned on singleplayer in years.

Piggybacking off this, Ultimate's newcomers are seen as being filled with as many bells and whistles as possible, most of their gimmicks aren't that difficult to get a handle on:

• Hitting people makes me do more damage.
• Counter makes me stronger.
• I get free buffs after a while.
• I have an invincible tackle, but only a few times per stock.
• Haha disjoints go brrrr! Also I literally have less moves to learn than everyone else.
• Speed and damage!
• Air combos made easy! Also my neutral special rotates between three projectiles.

Other than that, Hero's gimmick makes him more clunky to use than anything else, and King K. Rool's gimmick is more confusing for his opponent than his player. Kazuya and Terry's motion inputs are hard to master but they both hit like trucks so casuals really won't care about that. Really Steve is the only one who's actually hard to grasp, but I think it has more to do with how much there is and how different his game plan is, as it can be boiled down to sitting in a corner holding B, building diamond tools, and having fun abusing swordfighter hitboxes with brawler frame data.

So yeah, adding gimmicks doesn't necessarily make them more complicated to understand. It's one of the reasons why I think even with reworks, most characters would end up with mostly the same move sets as they already have.

EDIT:

Oh man, Lucario... They destroyed him. If any Smash character got flanderized, it was him. This set of sentences sums him up well enough, but I feel like doing a extended cut because man, the devs throttled him after Brawl.

Spoiler: Lucario rant, kinda long

His Aura gimmick was, like you said, perfect in Brawl. It worked as a boost for him, but it wasn't overwhelming and he wasn't helpless without it. It wasn't his entire Smash personality. That was perfect. They didn't need to do anything else.

But in Smash 4... man, I can't stress how much I hate Smash 4 Lucario. It's like they saw the strawmen of him being a flea at 0% and a nuke at 100% some casuals spread and thought "yeah let's make it real." Playing him at 0% in 4 feels like playing a mentally challenged toddler, its staggering how useless he is. Then they try to make up for it by ramping aura up to where he can KO Bowser at like 50% when he's at like 120% or so, which just makes it worse, because when you go from 0 to 100 that fast it just does not feel like you earned it, it's like your dad came on the field to bail you out.

Like I said, Brawl Aura was a supplement that was appreciated but he didn't need. He still functioned as a fighter without it. In Smash 4 tho? He dosen't. The mechanic is literally just coddling him. You can't do anything without aura and you become busted with it. It literally is just "you need to run around like a baby and get hurt a lot to actually be useable." No substance at all, its mindless and shallow. He felt like a meme fighter, just a ridiculous caricature of his Brawl self from someone that didn't understand what made it work.

It seems like the devs realized they meme-ified him in Ultimate and tried to make him a serious fighter again but they didn't go far enough. The tweaks they made were passive and now it just feels weird. He still feels useless without aura but he doesn't feel ridiculous at max either. He feels like the devs were fighting with each other when developing him about wheter he should be a real fighter or a meme again, and he just ends up the worst of all worlds.

TLDR: Lucario is a cautionary tale in when you take a good gimmick that added depth to a fighter and make it their entire identiy. The fighter just becomes a parody of themselves. They should make Lucario a serious fighter again in Smash 6. Honestly I want them to just wipe out everything they've done with him and revert him to his Brawl self, he's a lost cause now. If they really want the gross excess of Smash 4 "MAX AURA" 'cario, idk, just let him keep slowly going up in power past 172% all the way to 999%. At least that way it'd just be a fun Easter egg.

Lucario is my second favorite Pokémon behind only the best one of all time ( can you tell I like dogs?) and IIRC he was my least played of my main four Smash 4 characters. I didn't notice how bad Aura was, but I did notice just how difficult he was to play, and that's comparing him to Mega Man, Duck Hunt, and Shulk, some of the higher skill floors on the roster. And that stupid parabola recovery. Like, no Lucario. I didn't want to do a u-ie into the blast zone. I wanted to grab the ledge.

I will never be able to do it, but I do enjoy his Aura Sphere canceling shenanigans. I hope they keep that.

 

[Kirbeh]

Oh man, Lucario... They destroyed him. If any Smash character got flanderized, it was him. This set of sentences sums him up well enough, but I feel like doing a extended cut because man, the devs throttled him after Brawl.

Spoiler: Lucario rant, kinda long

His Aura gimmick was, like you said, perfect in Brawl. It worked as a boost for him, but it wasn't overwhelming and he wasn't helpless without it. It wasn't his entire Smash personality. That was perfect. They didn't need to do anything else.

But in Smash 4... man, I can't stress how much I hate Smash 4 Lucario. It's like they saw the strawmen of him being a flea at 0% and a nuke at 100% some casuals spread and thought "yeah let's make it real." Playing him at 0% in 4 feels like playing a mentally challenged toddler, its staggering how useless he is. Then they try to make up for it by ramping aura up to where he can KO Bowser at like 50% when he's at like 120% or so, which just makes it worse, because when you go from 0 to 100 that fast it just does not feel like you earned it, it's like your dad came on the field to bail you out.

Like I said, Brawl Aura was a supplement that was appreciated but he didn't need. He still functioned as a fighter without it. In Smash 4 tho? He dosen't. The mechanic is literally just coddling him. You can't do anything without aura and you become busted with it. It literally is just "you need to run around like a baby and get hurt a lot to actually be useable." No substance at all, its mindless and shallow. He felt like a meme fighter, just a ridiculous caricature of his Brawl self from someone that didn't understand what made it work.

It seems like the devs realized they meme-ified him in Ultimate and tried to make him a serious fighter again but they didn't go far enough. The tweaks they made were passive and now it just feels weird. He still feels useless without aura but he doesn't feel ridiculous at max either. He feels like the devs were fighting with each other when developing him about wheter he should be a real fighter or a gimmick again, and he just ends up the worst of all worlds.

TLDR: Lucario is a cautionary tale in when you take a good gimmick that added depth to a fighter and make it their entire identiy. The fighter just becomes a parody of themselves. They should make Lucario a serious fighter again in Smash 6. Honestly I want them to just wipe out everything they've done with him and revert him to his Brawl self, he's a lost cause now. If they really want the gross excess of Smash 4 "MAX AURA" 'cario, idk, just let him keep slowly going up in power past 172% all the way to 999%. At least that way it'd kinda be a fun Easter egg.

Personally, I'd prefer if they just got rid of Rage. If Sakurai keeps adding characters with built in comeback mechanics Rage will just make them more egregious. In Lucario's case, if they only have to balance around Aura, they could probably make the mechanic work better again.

Overall, though, a lot of the more recent Smash characters/mechanics feel like a bunch of odd compromises.

Let's add EX moves, but only for Cloud.
Let's add supers, but only for Terry.
Should Final Smashes be geared for casual or competitive play? Let's try for both but please neither.

The duality of man (Sakurai) = I really like fighting games, but won't someone think of the casuals?

And just so this doesn't get misinterpreted, that last sentence is in fact a joke.

I've got nothing against casual players, I'm a casual for some other fighters/games too. I think fighting games can and should be enjoyed by players of all skill levels, and Smash has been successful at this for 20+ years already.

I just think it's equal parts funny and unfortunate (as someone who prefers competitive play) that Sakurai just can't help himself and continually introduces more elements from standard fighting games including plenty of things I'd argue are not casual friendly in the slightest. Despite this he always manages to stop just short of doing things competitive players might actually want. That or we get a weird monkey's paw version like "You want more viable stages?" = "Oops, all FD!" Which I do still appreciate mind you, as having FD/BF versions of stages lets me enjoy the aesthetic and song selection of stages I would otherwise never play on, but its still kinda funny/frustrating all the same.

 

[Arcanir]

I'm going to concur with what's being said on Lucario. While I would like a couple new moves like Bone Rush for him, I feel what Lucario needs first and foremost is a rework to Aura. This is a character that was voted the second most popular of his franchise some years back, and yet in Smash could be among the least played as he's not very popular among Casual or Competitive fans. The Aura as it is, is just not generally appealing to many players as it makes him unwieldy and off-putting for many. Whether it requires adjustments or even a complete overhaul, something needs to be done to make the character more appealing to play.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I like the aura mechanic in itself. But it definitely needs to be better. It's a great way to represent the anime version, but adding some more stuff related to the games to help balance it out wouldn't be a bad idea. It was so fun in Brawl, but yeah, 4... oof. I forgot how it fared in Ultimate overall. I do see the crutch argument point, which is why I do think giving Lucario a few more tools is better, but not too much of a change to its core.

As for Jigglypuff, as much as I have fun with Rollout, it's definitely not that great. I'd like to see something better. The rest feels just right. Samus I do want to see get buffs and perhaps a few counter-style moves to match her newer abilities. For Ganondorf, where's his reflector option? That's his outright missing tool that makes him such a great character. Smash at least still makes a lot of sense with his moveset in retrospect, as he focused heavily on physical-style magic in many cases(and that's not really off from the kind he used even in OOT to a partial degree). But we still got some moves from the games too. As said above with Sonic, his core made sense at the time. But having a more unique Side B would make him feel a bit more varied than currently.

I don't like trying to rebuild a character's playstyle. That just doesn't work in the context of Smash. It's understandable if some changes somewhat forces you to play them a bit differently, but it's never that far off the mark(Link's minor reworks do matter, but they're very adjustable. Ganondorf's Swords are just an evolution of his powerful blows, etc). Bowser is now more agile(he was never that slow in his own franchise, still having some athletic capability, so the changes in 4 make sense). Though that said, some did drop hard in a later game after getting a good viable buff when being returned. If, for instance, Pichu returned in the next game, it might suddenly not work so well(and to be fair, it did get some nerfs over the patches. Yes, Pichu needed nerfs. And unlike Jigglypuff, kept the original Joke Character status fully in its first appearance).

------------------

I see we're exaggerating again. Plenty of people like F.L.U.D.D. It's honestly a great tool for Mario and really helps him overall. We don't have that many powerful edgeguarding tools as is. Outdated cause of relevance is, well, not really a good reason to remove a move. It's only outdated if it actually makes the character completely unplayable(See: Volcano Kick) in its execution. And while Warlock Punch isn't the best either, it does have better uses and doesn't leave him wide open due to Super Armor. It's a blatantly better move. Volcano Kick barely has an edgeguarding niche, and it really needs to go for a much better type of move. Slow and powerful moves are okay, but they can't just be "I can barely use it". A lot of stuff often has super armor or ways to cancel it, or it's somewhat easier to set up. Unfortunately, Volcano Kick just isn't one of them(and yes, it feels great to land it).

Mario works wonderfully and is one of the better characters in the game, and that one move is part of why. It's only Brawl where he was actually bad while having it among his moves. In 4, he's among the top tiers, and Ultimate he's in the higher set, in the A Rankings. It should be noted that he's normally been in the lower areas until 4. Where they made him really good, with a much better combo game. In addition, while F.L.U.D.D. was actually bleh in Brawl, it got major buffs in 4(and it's still a bit niche as an edgeguard in that game), but come Ultimate, it got even more significant buffs. It doesn't "need to go". It clearly showed it helps his game, and there's... really no reason to remove it when it actually works well for his overall playstyle. There's no need to reinvent the wheel or throw in new stuff solely for the sake of it. It was first added in a way you could call a risk. But instead of removing it, they figured out how to make it pretty damn good. ...Why remove a good tool just for the sake of "new modern tech". That's a really bad reason to overhaul or update someone. At least with characters being really bad, it can overall add to their options. Good moves should not be removed for the sake of it(and yes, again, during Brawl it was a risk. They instead fixed the issues and made it good instead of trying to reinvent the wheel yet again. Something that should happen more often).

 

[Guynamednelson]

Like, with character reworks for example, you might say "it'd be nice if they tweaked Sonic and Ganon" (which is pretty common) and the response you might get is "do you realize how much work it'd be to completely overhaul every move on every character on the roster!"

Which is weird to me when I think Sonic and Ganondorf are the only ones who really, really need a rework.

 

[TheQuester]

It's a great idea. It's a reference nobody likes

I mean there's people who like Balan Wonderworld....

 

[SpecterFlower]

To be honest, character reworks as a major selling point of the next Smash always feels like a ~~Smash fan~~ street fighter dev designing what a follow-up to Ultimate would look like rather than Sakurai designing what a follow-up to Ultimate would look like.

Fixed it for you, and yeah casuals probably don’t care.

 

[Kirbeh]

I mean there's people who like Balan Wonderworld....

Sakurai reveals the next Squeenix guest in the new Smash and he proudly introduces: Not Geno, nor Chrono, or even Tifa or 2B, but child from Balan Wonderworld. Every move is a different costume, only half of them do something.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

There are a lot of Smash characters I’d like to see get some changes, but Samus is the (non derivative) character I think needs it the most. There’s a pretty recent Smash mod for her and that’s more or less what I’d like to see, just some of those special moves probably need to be nerfed.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

One of my best friends plays Little Mac because he never wanted to learn how to jump in Smash and would rather run around in free-for-alls spamming smash attacks through the chaos.

Your friend can't learn to press the X button?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

It's a great idea. It's a reference nobody likes and a mechanic that doesn't belong on the guy that's basically the default character.

But people like Sunshine?

I'm baffled by this one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

But people like Sunshine?

I'm baffled by this one.

Let me say as someone who didn't enjoy it that much due to odd physics, and much prefers Super Mario 64.

Sunshine is still a very good game. It's still got great bits, music, cool mechanics, and loads of fun with the Nozzles. Like, the only part I actively found annoying was having suddenly two meters. It made it much harder than Super Mario 64. That said, they still make sense. Sure it has a stinker of a level here and there, but it's not like Super Mario 64 didn't too. There is no such thing as a perfect game.

Only thing I really wanted more with Smash's take on F.L.U.D.D.(at the time) was allowing you to use more nozzles akin to a temporary moveset switch(but only for specials). It sounds cool on paper, but it'd be an awful idea that makes him too complicated. They kept it simple. And with some tweaking, made Mario, well, good with it in mind.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

I see we're exaggerating again. Plenty of people like F.L.U.D.D. It's honestly a great tool for Mario and really helps him overall. We don't have that many powerful edgeguarding tools as is. Outdated cause of relevance is, well, not really a good reason to remove a move. It's only outdated if it actually makes the character completely unplayable(See: Volcano Kick) in its execution. And while Warlock Punch isn't the best either, it does have better uses and doesn't leave him wide open due to Super Armor. It's a blatantly better move. Volcano Kick barely has an edgeguarding niche, and it really needs to go for a much better type of move. Slow and powerful moves are okay, but they can't just be "I can barely use it". A lot of stuff often has super armor or ways to cancel it, or it's somewhat easier to set up. Unfortunately, Volcano Kick just isn't one of them(and yes, it feels great to land it).

Mario works wonderfully and is one of the better characters in the game, and that one move is part of why. It's only Brawl where he was actually bad while having it among his moves. In 4, he's among the top tiers, and Ultimate he's in the higher set, in the A Rankings. It should be noted that he's normally been in the lower areas until 4. Where they made him really good, with a much better combo game. In addition, while F.L.U.D.D. was actually bleh in Brawl, it got major buffs in 4(and it's still a bit niche as an edgeguard in that game), but come Ultimate, it got even more significant buffs. It doesn't "need to go". It clearly showed it helps his game, and there's... really no reason to remove it when it actually works well for his overall playstyle. There's no need to reinvent the wheel or throw in new stuff solely for the sake of it. It was first added in a way you could call a risk. But instead of removing it, they figured out how to make it pretty damn good. ...Why remove a good tool just for the sake of "new modern tech". That's a really bad reason to overhaul or update someone. At least with characters being really bad, it can overall add to their options. Good moves should not be removed for the sake of it(and yes, again, during Brawl it was a risk. They instead fixed the issues and made it good instead of trying to reinvent the wheel yet again. Something that should happen more often).

F.L.U.D.D. is actually good now? I remember being so confused by it since it seemed to not do anything for you (probably because it didn't back in Brawl), and in SSB4 I didn't like it because it tended to just yeeted people into air for some reason (instead of out like you'd want it to). I think I straight up just never touched it in Ultimate because of that.

But people like Sunshine?

I'm baffled by this one.

I've seen it get roasted hard and I've seen it get lots of praise. My only conclusion is that it's polarizing.

I myself didn't really care for it or Super Mario 64. Both are way too clunky when you're used to smooth 3D controls.

 

[Idon]

But people like Sunshine?

I'm baffled by this one.

Of the 3D Mario collectathons, it's definitely the most divisive though I wouldn't call it disliked.

I do somewhat agree it is an oddity to see Mr. Jump Man with light fire flower powers suddenly pull out a super-soaker gizmo from nowhere with a more unintuitive use case than the rest of his moves.

I wouldn't exactly be heartbroken to see it swapped but I'm not exactly clamoring for Mario changes to begin with.

F.L.U.D.D. is actually good? I remember being so confused by it since it seemed to not do anything for you (probably because it didn't back in Brawl), and in SSB4 I didn't like it because it tended to just yeeted people into air for some reason (instead of out like you'd want it to). I think I straight up just never touched it in Ultimate because of that.

Kinda. It doesn't do anything on its own but used right it can position your opponent in a more disadvantageous position which could lead to good stuff.
Oh, and if you have a bad recovery it can just completely kill you since there's no hitstun to refresh your up B, though that's character specific.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

F.L.U.D.D. is actually good? I remember being so confused by it since it seemed to not do anything for you (probably because it didn't back in Brawl), and in SSB4 I didn't like it because it tended to just yeeted people into air for some reason (instead of out like you'd want it to). I think I straight up just never touched it in Ultimate because of that.

If a Mario player fights against a character with a recovery that can't snap to ledges, they win solely because of that one move.

It's not the best thing about him but when it's good, it's good.

 

[Kirbeh]

But people like Sunshine?

I'm baffled by this one.

To be fair he said people don't like the reference. People can like Sunshine and dislike the way it got represented. Also it's Darth, I feel like most people here should recognize his posting style by now, he tends to use a lot of hyperboles.

And in this case I would say it's still pretty accurate. Most of the time I see/hear mention of FLUDD down special it's people expressing their dislike for it.

Also, Sunshine is kinda regarded as the black sheep of Mario. The people who like it, absolutely adore it but it's more polarizing to the wider audience of Mario games.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

If a Mario player fights against a character with a recovery that can't snap to ledges, they win solely because of that one move.

It's not the best thing about him but when it's good, it's good.

Hm. The only character that I know of that has this issue is Little Mac, as unless I misinterpreted that Beefy Smash Dudes video (or they were wrong), Spiral Uppercut is the only up special that didn't snap in SSB4, and I imagine that hasn't changed.

I'm sure there are more characters that have this property now if the move is considered good, but the idea of Little Mac specifically being weak to a spray bottle is really funny.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hm. The only character that I know of that has this issue is Little Mac, as unless I misinterpreted that Beefy Smash Dudes video (or they were wrong), Spiral Uppercut is the only up special that didn't snap in SSB4, and I imagine that hasn't changed.

I'm sure there are more characters that have this property now if the move is considered good, but the idea of Little Mac specifically being weak to a spray bottle is really funny.

Well, it's true that most if not all recoveries in Ultimate can snap to ledges, but a lot of the more vulnerable ones cannot do it unless you are positioned properly.

Cloud and Chrom are very big examples of people who can get destroyed by Mario for doing their Up B wrong.

 

[AreJay25]

Hm. The only character that I know of that has this issue is Little Mac, as unless I misinterpreted that Beefy Smash Dudes video (or they were wrong), Spiral Uppercut is the only up special that didn't snap in SSB4, and I imagine that hasn't changed.

I'm sure there are more characters that have this property now if the move is considered good, but the idea of Little Mac specifically being weak to a spray bottle is really funny.

Terry is another character that infamously can't snap to ledge. Granted, his recovery has a lot more going for it than Mac's, but it's still a clear weakness of his.

 

[SMAASH! Puppy]

One thing I will note is that while Ground Pound is a really natural choice for a down special it has a high potential to be really awful as well, since most if not all special moves of the ground pound variety are pretty garbo. I think it could work as a mobility tool given some of the options you get out of it in Super Mario Odyssey, but if it's like Bowser Bomb it wouldn't really be an upgrade for the character.

I do still kinda want Mario to be able to ground pound, but I don't quite trust the devs to make it an actually good move.

EDIT: You could make it a down aerial as instead, and stall & fall aerials have been seeing more success lately, but I also think Mario having a normal-ish down aerial is kinda important.

 

[Louie G.]

My stance on FLUDD is simply that I don't love how it gels with Mario's current kit and that it doesn't act as a natural extension of the character. Mario Tornado / Galaxy Spin, or even a Cappy throw utilizes an extension of Mario's body or design. Let alone Ground Pound, one of Mario's most fundamental utilities, but that probably just gets gated out because so many other characters have similar options already. But anyway, letting prominent design elements dictate a character's moveset is pretty fundamental to Smash's philosophy and I think the addition of FLUDD is kind of clumsy in this respect.

The same can be argued of Cape, kinda. Although I think I give Cape a bit of leeway having come first, and being more functionally relevant. To give a beginner character a reflector and a stall tool is certainly valuable. In FLUDD's defense from a general design standpoint, if you want to really sell the fact that Smash is about getting your opponents offstage... FLUDD sends a pretty clear cut message. That's its entire function. If that's the mentality behind the move then I understand it, although Cape also has a similar gimping capability and I'd honestly prefer Mario encourage people to experiment offstage. Maybe that's what Kirby is for. Hell, same with the fast fall down special vs Ground Pound.

So yeah, I get why some would defend it, but I still wouldn't especially miss FLUDD. "Inessential" is the word I'd probably use to describe it.

 

[Perkilator]

As far as Mario is concerned, I think he should have the Roll for Super Mario 3D Land onward as his side special and the Star Spin from Galaxy as his down special. Roll would be a forward-moving attack with an aerial variant where Mario bounces in an upward curve while rolling. Star Spin would be a "get off me" move that also reflects projectiles, in a way also serving as the spiritual successor to the Cape.

Essentially, Roll and Star Spin would be references to Mario's source material that also tie back into Mario's beginner-friendly design in Smash.