Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Gengar84]

Those with the attitude of "I just wanna talk about third parties": yeah, there is definitely that as well. Though what I was alluding to is that Ult's DLC being the most recent cycle also lends itself to discussing those characters and that rostering paradigm more freely than if we're in the thick of base game cycle.

I’ll admit I’m partially guilty of that myself. I love Nintendo and it’s my favorite gaming company but the large majority of my most wanted characters at this point are third party. There are still plenty of first party characters I’d be excited for but many of them aren’t particularly likely.

Some of my top ones that have a somewhat realistic chance are:

Gengar (or another Pokemon I really like)
Impa (Hyrule Warriors version)
Dixie Kong
Medusa
Officer Howard
Jena Anderson
Nia
Noah/Mio (Ouroboros fusion)
Goomba
King Boo
The Black Knight (or another FE character I really like)

 

[smashkirby]

I don’t think there is a hard rule that an echo can’t be brought back without their original. In the case of Roy and Chrom? Roy has the legacy and Smash popularity, but Chrom has massive FE popularity and comes from a far more beloved game. I also look at someone like Roy who’s been in three games and Lucina who has been in two and can’t help but feel like it’s worth letting the new guy stick around for a bit, ya know? Especially since he’s the most distinct from Marth between the three.

Wait... so I'm NOT alone in thinking this way?? Thank goodness!

For the longest while, I've been thinking about how F.E. will be handled in regards to its characters, and it's kind of bummed me out how so many seem to have Roy AND Chrom on the chopping block, despite their popularity in AND out of Smash. I guess it's partially bias on my part, as I definitely prefer them to Marth and Lucina if I'm being honest here.

With all of that being said, I'll admit that in Chrom's case? Him sticking around is partially because I REALLY do want him to stay and partially because... well, after all of the rather mean-spirited jokes made at his expense over missing out on Smash 4, I feel like he deserves to stick around for future games.

Or maybe veterans could be added back in free updates while newcomers get proper Challenger Packs?

Wait a minute, that... actually might not be such a bad idea (provided Nintendo handles it properly, of course).

 

[Gengar84]

Or maybe veterans could be added back in free updates while newcomers get proper Challenger Packs?

I could live with this. I wouldn’t really want to have to pay for veterans again after getting them all back in the last base game but getting them back over time through free updates would be fine. Even a greatly reduced price like $1-2 would be acceptable if they had to charge something.

 

[smashkirby]

I could live with this. I wouldn’t really want to have to pay for veterans again after getting them all back in the last base game but getting them back over time through free updates would be fine. Even a greatly reduced price like $1-2 would be acceptable if they had to charge something.

Yeah, exactly. In the event that Echoes are subject to this, maybe they can be $2-3, while unique veterans can be... $4? You know, if they absolutely HAD to charge for them, of course.

 

[Guynamednelson]

You know, if they absolutely HAD to charge for them, of course.

They charged for them during Smash 4, it's not going to be any different.

 

[TheQuester]

Yeah, especially if they continue with a similar model to Ultimate. It's unlikely that returning veterans would be able to sustain a full challenger pack of content, unless maybe it's a returning third party series absent from base game. If they want to sell off Cloud / Sephiroth or Sora later or something, then by all means I don't think they'll have a problem doing that. If we're talking first party veterans, those would probably be peppered in differently.

Maybe we have one returning veteran alongside each original newcomer, or something. Hard to say how this would operate but I think it'd be difficult to justify selling... let's say Wolf and maybe a returning Star Fox stage for the price of a brand new character, stage and music. So I think the answer would probably be reassessing how they approach the fighters pass and offering bundles of old and new content at once.

I think they could do a fighter pass for newcomers and a fighter pass for veterans. The fighter pass for veterans would be cheaper as some characters would not come with extra music or stages, for example characters like Piranha Plant, Bowser Jr, Incineroar if return as DLC, they would come alone, but characters like MinMin if return as DLC could return with her stage and music.

"Newcomer Pass 1" and "Veteran Pass 1"....etc.

 

[Arcanir]

I could live with this. I wouldn’t really want to have to pay for veterans again after getting them all back in the last base game but getting them back over time through free updates would be fine. Even a greatly reduced price like $1-2 would be acceptable if they had to charge something.

Yeah, exactly. In the event that Echoes are subject to this, maybe they can be $2-3, while unique veterans can be... $4? You know, if they absolutely HAD to charge for them, of course.

They'll charge for them since they still take work, but they may charge less. It's been a while, but IIRC the First Party Veterans did cost less than their Third Party and First Party Newcomer counterparts back in Smash 4.

Edit: Found it. Roy, Mewtwo, and Lucas cost $3.99, Corrin cost $4.99, and Bayonetta, Cloud, and Ryu cost $5.99. The latter group also came with their own stages which likely pushed their pricing up a dollar vs. Corrin. So, if they do follow Smash 4's model they'd be slightly cheaper than the newcomers, with the stages being a variable.

 

[Louie G.]

I think we need to be ready to pay for veterans again in some capacity. Probably at a docked price compared to newcomers, unless they are third party veterans who will come with full series representation, but I don't see Smash adopting a free character update model as nice as that would be. We did pay for returning characters in Smash 4, even Lucas who was in the previous game and didn't see any drastic changes, so I think the message has more or less been sent that we'd still buy them. Obviously I wish I was getting them for free but it's just not very realistic to me.

In my most idealistic mind, I suppose something like a Forbidden 7 of low priority veterans could come to fruition as progressive updates post launch before DLC is being properly developed. Getting Jigglypuff a month after release would not be the end of the world. But I'm not certain how much I anticipate this kind of thing happening, I'd sooner be inclined to just believe they just put those characters aside for purchase. Would be nice if the extra time in the oven could result in characters seeing more drastic changes than usual... we did see that with Roy, at least. But Lucas and even Mewtwo remained fundamentally the same (just that Mewtwo was actually a functional character this time around).

 

[ScrubReborn]

They'll charge for them since they still take work, but they may charge less. It's been a while, but IIRC the First Party Veterans did cost less than their Third Party and First Party Newcomer counterparts back in Smash 4.

That said, Third Parties also came with new stages which may've also affected their pricing, though Corrin didn't and still cost one dollar more.

You'd be right, the Smash 4 veterans cost 4-5$ (depending on if you brought them for one version or both), the first party newcomer cost 5-6$ and the third party newcomers cost 6-7$.

edit: oh you already found it while i was typing. lol

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

They'll charge for them since they still take work, but they may charge less. It's been a while, but IIRC the First Party Veterans did cost less than their Third Party and First Party Newcomer counterparts back in Smash 4.

Edit: Found it. Roy, Mewtwo, and Lucas cost $3.99, Corrin cost $4.99, and Bayonetta, Cloud, and Ryu cost $5.99. The latter group also came with their own stages which likely pushed their pricing up a dollar vs. Corrin. So, if they do follow Smash 4's model they'd be slightly cheaper than the newcomers, with the stages being a variable.

Corrin also did come with music and trophies compared to the three veterans, so I'm going to assume the fact there was extra content at all played a factor.

 

[Guynamednelson]

I think they could do a fighter pass for newcomers and a fighter pass for veterans.

"Newcomer Pass 1" and "Veteran Pass 1"....etc.

That's not how it works. Fighting games make you pay for veterans and newcomers in the same pass.

 

[SPEN18]

I’ll admit I’m partially guilty of that myself. I love Nintendo and it’s my favorite gaming company but the large majority of my most wanted characters at this point are third party. There are still plenty of first party characters I’d be excited for but many of them aren’t particularly likely.

Some of my top ones that have a somewhat realistic chance are:

Gengar (or another Pokemon I really like)
Impa (Hyrule Warriors version)
Dixie Kong
Medusa
Officer Howard
Jena Anderson
Nia
Noah/Mio (Ouroboros fusion)
Goomba
King Boo
The Black Knight (or another FE character I really like)

I’ll admit I’m partially guilty of that myself. I love Nintendo and it’s my favorite gaming company but the large majority of my most wanted characters at this point are third party. There are still plenty of first party characters I’d be excited for but many of them aren’t particularly likely.

Some of my top ones that have a somewhat realistic chance are:

Gengar (or another Pokemon I really like)
Impa (Hyrule Warriors version)
Dixie Kong
Medusa
Officer Howard
Jena Anderson
Nia
Noah/Mio (Ouroboros fusion)
Goomba
King Boo
The Black Knight (or another FE character I really like)

It's fine to talk about whichever characters.
I'm not really any different in that I'd rather talk about the cycle where more of the picks and features I'd like to see are more likely, though at least the base games don't depend on the DLCs in the same way that the DLCs depend on what happens in base. That and while I'm not surprised, even expecting, to see some people talking about future cycles beyond the most immediate one, it is kinda funny to see that attitude so widespread.

 

[Chuderz]

I still believe a double game launch would be a great strategy if we're talking about Nintendo's profit margins.

Like Pokemon does only where that's a blatant zero-effort cash grab this one would be substantial.

There'd be a base game and an expansion both fully priced. The base game would include mostly Nintendo stuff but some third parties like Sonic, Megaman, Pacman, Banjo maybe even the likes of Knuckles, Tails and Bomberman would also be included. Cutesy fun third-parties that fit in better with Nintendo's line up. Any veteran missing from this base game will be replaced by a newcomer. You have to buy the base game in order to unlock the ability to purchase the expansion pack.

Then you have the expansion pack which would include any veteran missing from the base game first and third parties alike. This pack would also include Nintendo deep cuts like Isaac, Mach Rider and Donkey Kong Jr. This would help supplement the gains in the roster by getting the expansion pack and thus sweeten the deal because the expansion pack would have a similar amount of content but less overall than the base game acting more as access to the full experience rather than a separate game in and of itself.

I wish this was the way they'd do it actually because Nintendo would probably would give Sakurai and team a insane amount of resources/budget if the idea was to make Smash a 140$ game with a planned DLC cycle. That's the most likely avenue to retaining Everyone is Here while also heavily expanding upon Smash's gameplay/modes without sacrificing a modicum the quality. I could see them also making it 120$ in a bundled price but 70$ individually. If this were the release model then it'd probably have to be a rare exemption from Nintendo's voucher program as well in order to make all of this justifiable from the company's financial standpoint.

Some noteworthy "problems" with this model besides it be unprecedented for Smash specifically (but not Nintendo themselves since they already do this with Pokemon) is it'd basically invite pay to win accusations from people disgruntled about the pricing. These accusations really don't matter but these misgivings would definitely be used as a launch pad for some easy bad press by a press that's always desperately eager to milk any online buzz for engagement. In my humble opinion it'd mostly just be something you'd have to ride out. The game would eventually go on sale and that'd be that.

The final problem would be the physical release. I don't think there would be a physical version of the full package would be released on a single cartridge. Nintendo is super stingy about cartridge sizes and this game would be massive and there's also the risk of secondhand sales cheapening the value of the full package. I think it'd be a situation where the base game was on the cartridge and a digital code for the expansion pack in the box. This would piss off "preservationists" (tots) and also come with some bad press. Again though I think it's just something you ride out. Simply even having a DLC cycle kind of already ****s over people that want the full game post-DLC support as we've seen with both Smash 4 and Ultimate at this point so it's just more of the same.

 

[Scrimblo Bimblo]

I have to say recent Nintendo hasn't done much for me to be honest.
Spent most of my time on Switch, aside from Smash of course, with 3rd party ports like Dark Souls, all the Doom games, classic Neo Geo stuff, Crash games, SNES/N64, now Red Dead Redemption...
So yeah I'm generally more inclined towards non-Nintendo characters now. Unless it's a classic one like Dixie or Skull Kid and/or some really out there stuff

 

[SPEN18]

I have to say recent Nintendo hasn't done much for me to be honest

Though recent Nintendo has done quite a lot for Nintendo
Tbh idk how they're going to maintain all of this momentum into the next system. There might be somewhat of a drop-off from the Switch era I am guessing; hopefully not but we'll see.

 

[TheQuester]

That's not how it works. Fighting games make you pay for veterans and newcomers in the same pass.

Who says Smash has to do what other figthing games do through? If they cut like 15 character or so, a veteran pass it's definitely possible, specially because some veterans have no stage, so it would be weird to have them in the same pass with newcomers that have a full pack.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Who says Smash has to do what other figthing games do through?

The simple fact that they won't have enough resources to simultaneously work on veteran and newcomer passes. DLC isn't made on a big enough budget for that, even Mortal Kombat with its AAA budgets only works on 6 characters at a time per pass.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Who says Smash has to do what other figthing games do through? If they cut like 15 character or so, a veteran pass it's definitely possible, specially because some veterans have no stage, so it would be weird to have them in the same pass with newcomers that have a full pack.

How would you suggest they do it? Are they running both passes simultaneously, meaning they have even more workload at once? Are they alternating, creating a moment where we don't get any newcomers ever?

It's not just a matter of "doing what everyone else does", but rather that mixing new and returning faces is the more effective way to do it. Especially since post-launch development typically has either less staff, less budget or both.

 

[TheQuester]

How would you suggest they do it? Are they running both passes simultaneously, meaning they have even more workload at once? Are they alternating, creating a moment where we don't get any newcomers ever?

It's not just a matter of "doing what everyone else does", but rather that mixing new and returning faces is the more effective way to do it. Especially since post-launch development typically has either less staff, less budget or both.

Alternating, 4 characters in each pass (Street Fighter 6 had a FP with 4 character, so it's not impossible to have less than 5)

For example:
In August 2027 we could get NP1, idk let's say Zagreus, which would come with stage and music.
In October 2027 we could get VP1, idk let's say Ike, which would not have added content.
In January 2028 we could get NP2, idk let's say Ahri, which would come with stage and music.
In March 2028 we could get VP2, idk let's say Sephiroth, which would come with Northern Cave and missing FF7 tracks.
...etc

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Alternating, 4 characters in each pass (Street Fighter 6 had a FP with 4 character, so it's not impossible to have less than 5)

For example:
In August 2027 we could get NP1, idk let's say Zagreus, which would come with stage and music.
In October 2027 we could get VP1, idk let's say Ike, which would not have added content.
In January 2028 we could get NP2, idk let's say Ahri, which would come with stage and music.
In March 2028 we could get VP2, idk let's say Sephiroth, which would come with Northern Cave and missing FF7 tracks.
...etc

Okay. Now tell me why this can't just be one combined pass instead of two alternating passes.

Because this sounds like a scheme to make even more money by selling two batches separately instead of together.

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

For what it's worth Sakurai mentioned in an interview a bit after Smash 4 came out that the code from Melee was so antiquated that it was essentially unreadable, and Mewtwo had to be built from the ground up like a newcomer. The same would apply to Roy, though probably not Lucas since 4 copies a bunch of code from Brawl already. With Studio S being formalised, it would likely mean that a good chunk of the development team is the same between games and working in the same offices with all their past code readily available, which would certainly make bringing back old characters easier, though obviously still a huge time investment. I think it would depend on what engine a next Smash game runs on and how much of it is built from the ground up. We don't know what engines Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate use aside from the first two using Havok for physics.

Bringing back veterans as free DLC would be nice but very idealistic, I don't see that happening. I imagine they would most likely just not come as full challenger packs unless they're third parties and be priced lower.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Bringing back veterans as free DLC would be nice but very idealistic, I don't see that happening. I imagine they would most likely just not come as full challenger packs unless they're third parties and be priced lower.

So exactly how Mewtwo, Roy and Lucas were handled in Smash 4.

I think that's a fair take due to the precedence.

 

[TheQuester]

Okay. Now tell me why this can't just be one combined pass instead of two alternating passes.

Because this sounds like a scheme to make even more money by selling two batches separately instead of together.

FP1 was 24$ with 5 fighters.
A NP with 4 fighters would be roughly 19$, a VP with 4 fighters and some not include stages or music could be around 15$, which would be around 34$ in total, not that much more expensive than FP2 which was 6 fighters for 29$, so it wouldn't be much more expensive at all lol, since you'd be getting 8 fighters for like 34$ if you buy both NP and VP.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

FP1 was 24$ with 5 fighters.
A NP with 4 fighters would be roughly 19$, a VP with 4 fighters and some not include stages or music could be around 15$, which would be around 34$ in total, not that much more expensive than FP2 which was 6 fighters for 29$, so it wouldn't be much more expensive at all lol, since you'd be getting 8 fighters for like 34$ if you buy both NP and VP.

My point is there's no reason to separate them. And besides, only four dollars of difference when a NP has so much more content feels rough.

Not sure if the newcomers are really cheap or the veterans are really expensive in your example...

 

[TheQuester]

My point is there's no reason to separate them. And besides, only four dollars of difference when a NP has so much more content feels rough.

Not sure if the newcomers are really cheap or the veterans are really expensive in your example...

Maybe some people don't want to buy the entire fighter pass for 34$ at a time and prefer to pay for NP or VP, which are cheaper individually and buy the other later, i'd say that's enough reason.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Maybe some people don't want to buy the entire fighter pass for 34$ at a time and prefer to pay for NP or VP, which are cheaper individually and buy the other later, i'd say that's enough reason.

Or maybe each pass is a 6 character pack with half veterans and half newcomers.

If you really want to, they can be separate to be cheaper to offer options, but removing the option of having one combined pass where you get all of them is a strange one. Ever thought that maybe some people want everything?

 

[Hadokeyblade]

I have to say recent Nintendo hasn't done much for me to be honest.
Spent most of my time on Switch, aside from Smash of course, with 3rd party ports like Dark Souls, all the Doom games, classic Neo Geo stuff, Crash games, SNES/N64, now Red Dead Redemption...
So yeah I'm generally more inclined towards non-Nintendo characters now. Unless it's a classic one like Dixie or Skull Kid and/or some really out there stuff

Thats just gaming in general for me nowadays, i barely play new stuff and mostly go with old stuff

 

[TheQuester]

Or maybe each pass is a 6 character pack with half veterans and half newcomers.

If you really want to, they can be separate to be cheaper to offer options, but removing the option of having one combined pass where you get all of them is a strange one. Ever thought that maybe some people want everything?

You can just buy both passes individually.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You can just buy both passes individually.

There's no way they wouldn't do a combined pass. It's just convenient.

Even Smash 4, which didn't even have any fighter passes, eventually ended up doing fighter bundles.

 

[TheQuester]

There's no way they wouldn't do a combined pass. It's just convenient.

Even Smash 4, which didn't even have any fighter passes, eventually ended up doing fighter bundles.

Was an idea anyways.
Im not an expert at creating fighter passes.

 

[Ivander]

Thats just gaming in general for me nowadays, i barely play new stuff and mostly go with old stuff

If anything, the major thing that keeps me from playing newer stuff is prices, since I'm Canadian and so one game at launch is around $90 to $100. But in terms of playing them, I've still been playing both old and new stuff recently. Been going through my back catalogue of games.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Was an idea anyways.
Im not an expert at creating fighter passes.

I think the idea of separating newcomers and veterans in separate bundles is not a bad idea, let me be clear on that.

I just don't think it should come at the cost of NOT having the option of an all-in-one bundle.

 

[Perkilator]

All this talk has given me a new roster idea: try to sort out which veterans would return in the base game, and which ones would be scrapped for being lower priority and could come back as DLC.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

All this talk has given me a new roster idea: try to sort out which veterans would return in the base game, and which ones would ideally be sold as DLC.

This is just a "who's getting cut" topic with extra steps.

Barring 3rd parties with how those work, no character is going to be "held off" for DLC.
What you're asking for is "which characters will be scrapped for being low priority that MIGHT come back as DLC".

 

[Perkilator]

This is just a "who's getting cut" topic with extra steps.

Barring 3rd parties with how those work, no character is going to be "held off" for DLC.
What you're asking for is "which characters will be scrapped for being low priority that MIGHT come back as DLC".

Alright, I fixed my original post for more clarity.

 

[Hadokeyblade]

If anything, the major thing that keeps me from playing newer stuff is prices, since I'm Canadian and so one game at launch is around $90 to $100. But in terms of playing them, I've still been playing both old and new stuff recently. Been going through my back catalogue of games.

Yeah thats the predominant reason, among other things i wont mention have made me at least for now skip on every major release this year so far.

 

[BritishGuy54]

All this talk has given me a new roster idea: try to sort out which veterans would return in the base game, and which ones would be scrapped for being lower priority and could come back as DLC.

I suspect Square will be late to the party and relegate to DLC.

I also think will miss the boat for the base roster, but be a fan favourite pick for veteran DLC.

 

[Idon]

Not sure how hot of a take this is, but I'd rather straight up purchase DLC veterans if they had the modern sensibilities to actually update them in new and exciting ways as is the trend with most modern fighters instead of just being the simplest possible forward port like Smash is wont to do.

There's a reason the most hyped up character trailer in EVO Japan was Akuma, a man who's had a perfect attendance in every Street Fighter for 30 years straight. Because he was not only done justice each time but constantly exceeds expectations as well.

I guarantee if Smash did crazy **** like this for someone like Ganondorf, it would more than justify a full-price DLC newcomer pricetag.

 

[Perkilator]

All this talk has given me a new roster idea: try to sort out which veterans would return in the base game, and which ones would be scrapped for being lower priority and could come back as DLC.

I'm going to lay out my ideal DLC roadmap for the next Smash:

Season 1	Season 2	Season 3	Season 4
Veteran​	Newcomer​	Veteran​	Newcomer​
Newcomer​	Veteran​	Newcomer​	Veteran​
Veteran​	Newcomer​	Veteran​	Newcomer​
Newcomer​	Veteran​	Newcomer​	Veteran​
Veteran​	Newcomer​	Veteran​	Newcomer​

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Not sure how hot of a take this is, but I'd rather straight up purchase DLC veterans if they had the modern sensibilities to actually update them in new and exciting ways as is the trend with most modern fighters instead of just being the simplest possible forward port like Smash is wont to do.

There's a reason the most hyped up character trailer in EVO Japan was Akuma, a man who's had a perfect attendance in every Street Fighter for 30 years straight. Because he was not only done justice each time but constantly exceeds expectations as well.


I guarantee if Smash did crazy **** like this for someone like Ganondorf, it would more than justify a full-price DLC newcomer pricetag.

Hot take or not, you are SPITTING, Idon.

I would absolutely be down for crazy shenanigans like that to expand on old characters.