Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[SKX31]

Kind of random, but I suspect that they'll try and add more characters home to other fighting games in the next Smash. It seemed to be a minor trend in Ultimate, and these characters seem like a natural fit.

I don't see why when they've added Kara Cancels in Ultimate (and even patched in a new form of that in 7.0.0) - if they did that it's certainly possible that if they wanted say Sol in Smash 6 they could add Roman Cancels to go alongside him.

Melee's lineup really is weird, when you think about it. Especially when you discount the clones (who were added in at the tail-end of development as bonuses) and look at the actual unique newcomer lineup.



You do have some obvious no-brainers like Bowser, Peach, Zelda and Mewtwo, but as much as I like them, it's just kinda weird to think that the likes of Sheik, Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch were prioritised over notable omissions like Diddy Kong, Wario, and Dedede. Marth too, but he's kind of a grey area in that Fire Emblem was a big IP in Japan at that time and he was supposed to be expunged from the non-JP versions of Melee anyways.

Well, yeah I always thought Melee's roster was quite lacking, even when I was younger. An obvious missing character lead to me picking my username, yeah am around that long... He's also my favorite character ever, and I was about 13-14, so. Anyway, I do think that Diddy, Wario and Dedede would've been better picks than Ice Climbers, Game & Watch and Sheik. They'd even be better picks than Zelda and Peach I'd say.

However, all had reasons for their exclusion in some way. Diddy was probably in a weird spot with the Rare buyout, it's especially weird how Dixie and K.Rool show up as trophies, and Diddy doesn't. The exact second Event Match in Melee had you fight a big DK in his regular colors, and a smaller red costume DK. I believe Diddy was planned, but dropped. Since his Brawl reveal was a huge day for me (I literally screamed when I saw the Dojo update, it was a midweek day around 7AM) I remember the update saying that it was sort of a late entry for Diddy to be included in Brawl.

Wario I read was sort of planned to be similar to Mario, but they opted for Dr.Mario cause they where aiming for more easy to make clones. Wario was also in a weird spot you could say, they didn't want to make him a clone, and didn't have the resources or time to make him unique. Probably why he was one of the first characters to be revealed in Brawl.

King Dedede was deliberately skipped over, Sakurai didn't want to oversaturate the amount of Kirby characters. I read something about the likes that they would either opt for doing clone characters, or Dedede, and to buff the roster size they choose to add the clones.

The most logical picks for Melee to me where always Bowser, Mewtwo and Marth, even if Marth only made sense retrospectively. Didn't understand why he was picked when I was younger obviously. We all didn't...

Back during Melee Sakurai and HAL really wanted to expand on Smash's scope, variety in characters and their movesets compared to 64 (even as they had very little time to do so). Which is evident not only with the orchestral intro, Adventure mode etc. but also in the inclusion of several new moves (most prominently Side Bs, but also Up / Down Throw and charged Smashes). You have Peach's float, Zelda's transformation - and Sheik just so happens to be her in OoT - ICies' "2-in-1" and G&W's unique absorb / reflector* move in Bucket. Also, RNG in a move (Turnip and Judge). That's in addition to ICs' and G&W being effectively tributes to older hardware.

The incredibly tight development schedule didn't just impact how the newcomers actually wound up in the finished product - but it also very likely affected the newcomer selection as well. A couple of those characters barely missed 64, several polled well in the Smash 2 poll and the retro choices were likely made quickly. There's a strong contrast to be made vis-a-vis Brawl and 4, which both had a much more generous development schedule and thus could afford a more expansive newcomer selection.

* (Of a sort up until Ultimate straight up made it reflect non-energy projectiles, a change G&W did kinda need TBF.)

 

[SPEN18]

I mean, Sakurai added IC because he wanted to add a rep for those one-off NES games.

I know that. And it's still baffling they got picked over several other potential retro characters like even Pit. But the point was that they don't fit into the "can't miss, must have" sort of category that the other user was claiming was the theme for Melee's newcomers.

Marth

I mean, Sakurai wanted Marth in 64 and FE was already a series with 5 mainline games at that point (6 if you include the then-upcoming Binding Blade). Plus FE was a new series whereas characters like Diddy or Dedede were from existing ones. So only weird from a North American point of view.

 

[Dinoman96]

The actual known reason for Wario's exclusion in Melee is because Sakurai did not want to add too many Mario newcomers at once.

速報スマブラ拳!! : アンケート集計拳!!

If I could afford to make one or two more,
I might have put it in.
It is certain that he was in the upper ranks among the characters that became crap.

However, even if you cut the layered model replacement character, it will not enter.
Even if the characters (pudding, luigi) that appeared in the previous work are scraped, they will not enter.
If
you think that it would have been impossible to cut a character that would take one body to develop because it was less than the effort of one body ... Wario appeared unless you cut either Mars and Roy (both) or Mewtwo.
There wasn't. I was also worried that there were too many Mario families, so it
was difficult for Wario to appear in this case .

Super duper rough translation, but the gist of it that Wario was considered but ultimately passed on because, well, Mario already had two newcomers with Bowser and Peach.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

God, I wish that this thread had more structured discussion at points because things have been going in ****ing circles.

You have people that are making posts about cuts, with ranging degrees of reasonability. Sure, you have a few people highlighting that cuts are something that easily could happen and EiH is not set in stone to ever come back, but you have louder voices talking about things like wishing to gatekeep smash so the series is more niche, asking that almost every third party being cut, or other heavily unpopular positions like that. The next page or two will be derailed by people obviously not being in favor of such a radical position, with at least one well written response heavily ratioing the controversial post. Then discussion of something actually different will happen for a few posts, before someone needs to kick the hornet's nest again.

At this point I am exhausted because most of the same few people kick the hornet's nest when at this point its clear their beliefs are unpopular. Now, everyone has unpopular beliefs for Smash in some way, shape, or form. If you make a coherent argument, even the most unpopular ideas can become respected and understood. Threads like RTC or Character Exploration were great examples of this, where at one point not as popular ideas or concepts gained a lot of new fans due to good cases and interesting ideas being put forward. But its boring to see the same people make the same arguments and the same counter arguments not even being acknowledged 70% of the time.

If it has not been clear by my posts, I personally think that cuts are not the most likely, and if we do get them we likely wont get the thanos snap of most of the third parties, clones, "irrelevant characters" and what have you that most pro cuts people champion. I obviously have my biases, but it is frustrating to see people act like their niche, unpopular talking points need to be discussed as gospel around here. Could cuts happen? Absolutely, but even if you do think cuts are going to happen, acting like they will just nuke third parties is kind of egregious. We are not losing Cloud and Sephiroth when Hero is one of the most popular and beloved characters in Japan. So long as Sega and Namco are on board with smash, Joker and Kazuya are probably safe since they likely would be negotiating for them at the same time as Sonic or Pac Man.

If there is one thing I think roots this desire for cuts for third parties, it is a distaste for how Ultimate speculation went. I've seen plenty of people talk about how the Ult Speculation scene in DLC was dreadful. If you only wanted first parties, it was obviously going to be dreadful to be in an environment where third parties are king. It can easily be frustrating to support smaller first party choices that could have been cool base game additions when they seem unlikely to end up in the game and are thus ignored. No one likes seeing their most wanted get swept under the rug because they are not uber popular or relevant at the moment. In the past, I have said that I think whining about this situation is not productive whatsoever. I want to stress once again i get not liking the situation. I went through Smash 4 for instance with people not even tolerating a lot of third party picks, and as such held picks I would have gone crazy for like Crash, Cloud, or Sora a bit closer to my chest. When the environment seems against you, it sucks. Plain and simple.

That being said, I still think whining about how things are is the least productive thing you can do. No one is forcing you not to want or talk about your character. I spent a large part of Ultimate talking about how Sephiroth was a dark horse pick. I know plenty of people who pushed characters that were more niche despite them not being seen as likely. You are the master of your own destiny. You do not have to whine about cuts or nuking third parties just to get some idealized version of smash that never truly existed even during Melee's development. While you can always hold onto whatever beliefs you want, sometimes you have to accept some things are not exactly gonna happen while Sakurai is at the helm. We won't see non video game characters, we likely will end up staying somewhat close to his vision of smash, which even in Melee's early days had third parties at a concept he was mulling. The Smash 2 poll did have third parties on it. Sonic and Snake were both considered for Melee. Third parties are clearly part of Sakurai's vision, so while you clearly have the freedom to dislike the fact they are here and have the freedom to hope that they do not take up too much of the base roster, you have to be realistic at the same time.

To be fair, there are plenty of people who do want cuts potentially so Nintendo can focus on other aspects of the game. While I have my own issues with this point of view for a variety of reasons (Smash Ultimate's small base game newcomer number can also be attributed towards when the roster was selected, we did get a lot of new content like Spirits, 50+ HD stages, a whole story mode, and thematic fun classic modes, bringing characters back is easier than making new ones), I get it. I might not agree with everything in it but I get it. Some people have a different design philosophy for smash and what they expect from it. I want a game I can play with my friends or at tournaments with all sorts of characters from all over gaming. Others want a more dynamic single player experience. Other people want to sneak rollback past Harada. People clearly have different expectations for Smash.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is frustrating seeing the same thing happen every week 2-3 times, where we go in circles. I had my beefs with the last social thread for this as well to an extent. It would go through the same motions of Geno discussion, rumor discussion, whether there would be a FP3, the list goes on. But I feel with this it has gotten even worse without any glimmer of a new smash on the horizon. It has only been two months since Sora was added and Newcomer Speculation died. I have my own thoughts on how that all went down, but regardless its taxing to see the same third party bashing nuclear cuts argument for the 15th time at least this month.

 

[HyperSomari64]

The actual known reason for Wario's exclusion in Melee is because Sakurai did not want to add too many Mario newcomers at once.

But Wario has his own franchise apart of Mario.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Circles will happen all the time, there's 90 pages posted already. Can't expect everyone, or anybody really, to read all that. The circles will continue the bigger this thread becomes. Especially since we have zero information, and yeah, cuts are likely.

But Wario has his own franchise apart of Mario.

So does Yoshi frankly, but they're still connected with each other. Even DK, which is maybe why Brawl added only Wario and Diddy ? I never liked this notion, but there could be some truth in this.

 

[Will]

But Wario has his own franchise apart of Mario.

Wario was in more spinoffs than he had his own games in 2001.

 

[chocolatejr9]

God, I wish that this thread had more structured discussion at points because things have been going in ****ing circles.

You have people that are making posts about cuts, with ranging degrees of reasonability. Sure, you have a few people highlighting that cuts are something that easily could happen and EiH is not set in stone to ever come back, but you have louder voices talking about things like wishing to gatekeep smash so the series is more niche, asking that almost every third party being cut, or other heavily unpopular positions like that. The next page or two will be derailed by people obviously not being in favor of such a radical position, with at least one well written response heavily ratioing the controversial post. Then discussion of something actually different will happen for a few posts, before someone needs to kick the hornet's nest again.

At this point I am exhausted because most of the same few people kick the hornet's nest when at this point its clear their beliefs are unpopular. Now, everyone has unpopular beliefs for Smash in some way, shape, or form. If you make a coherent argument, even the most unpopular ideas can become respected and understood. Threads like RTC or Character Exploration were great examples of this, where at one point not as popular ideas or concepts gained a lot of new fans due to good cases and interesting ideas being put forward. But its boring to see the same people make the same arguments and the same counter arguments not even being acknowledged 70% of the time.

If it has not been clear by my posts, I personally think that cuts are not the most likely, and if we do get them we likely wont get the thanos snap of most of the third parties, clones, "irrelevant characters" and what have you that most pro cuts people champion. I obviously have my biases, but it is frustrating to see people act like their niche, unpopular talking points need to be discussed as gospel around here. Could cuts happen? Absolutely, but even if you do think cuts are going to happen, acting like they will just nuke third parties is kind of egregious. We are not losing Cloud and Sephiroth when Hero is one of the most popular and beloved characters in Japan. So long as Sega and Namco are on board with smash, Joker and Kazuya are probably safe since they likely would be negotiating for them at the same time as Sonic or Pac Man.

If there is one thing I think roots this desire for cuts for third parties, it is a distaste for how Ultimate speculation went. I've seen plenty of people talk about how the Ult Speculation scene in DLC was dreadful. If you only wanted first parties, it was obviously going to be dreadful to be in an environment where third parties are king. It can easily be frustrating to support smaller first party choices that could have been cool base game additions when they seem unlikely to end up in the game and are thus ignored. No one likes seeing their most wanted get swept under the rug because they are not uber popular or relevant at the moment. In the past, I have said that I think whining about this situation is not productive whatsoever. I want to stress once again i get not liking the situation. I went through Smash 4 for instance with people not even tolerating a lot of third party picks, and as such held picks I would have gone crazy for like Crash, Cloud, or Sora a bit closer to my chest. When the environment seems against you, it sucks. Plain and simple.

That being said, I still think whining about how things are is the least productive thing you can do. No one is forcing you not to want or talk about your character. I spent a large part of Ultimate talking about how Sephiroth was a dark horse pick. I know plenty of people who pushed characters that were more niche despite them not being seen as likely. You are the master of your own destiny. You do not have to whine about cuts or nuking third parties just to get some idealized version of smash that never truly existed even during Melee's development. While you can always hold onto whatever beliefs you want, sometimes you have to accept some things are not exactly gonna happen while Sakurai is at the helm. We won't see non video game characters, we likely will end up staying somewhat close to his vision of smash, which even in Melee's early days had third parties at a concept he was mulling. The Smash 2 poll did have third parties on it. Sonic and Snake were both considered for Melee. Third parties are clearly part of Sakurai's vision, so while you clearly have the freedom to dislike the fact they are here and have the freedom to hope that they do not take up too much of the base roster, you have to be realistic at the same time.

To be fair, there are plenty of people who do want cuts potentially so Nintendo can focus on other aspects of the game. While I have my own issues with this point of view for a variety of reasons (Smash Ultimate's small base game newcomer number can also be attributed towards when the roster was selected, we did get a lot of new content like Spirits, 50+ HD stages, a whole story mode, and thematic fun classic modes, bringing characters back is easier than making new ones), I get it. I might not agree with everything in it but I get it. Some people have a different design philosophy for smash and what they expect from it. I want a game I can play with my friends or at tournaments with all sorts of characters from all over gaming. Others want a more dynamic single player experience. Other people want to sneak rollback past Harada. People clearly have different expectations for Smash.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is frustrating seeing the same thing happen every week 2-3 times, where we go in circles. I had my beefs with the last social thread for this as well to an extent. It would go through the same motions of Geno discussion, rumor discussion, whether there would be a FP3, the list goes on. But I feel with this it has gotten even worse without any glimmer of a new smash on the horizon. It has only been two months since Sora was added and Newcomer Speculation died. I have my own thoughts on how that all went down, but regardless its taxing to see the same third party bashing nuclear cuts argument for the 15th time at least this month.

So we need to talk about something different, right? Um... Fortnite recently sent out another survey, and they mentioned a bunch of Nintendo stuff on it (even Marth of all characters). Does that mean they'd be willing to be in Smash?

 

[Baysha]

God, I wish that this thread had more structured discussion at points because things have been going in ****ing circles.

You have people that are making posts about cuts, with ranging degrees of reasonability. Sure, you have a few people highlighting that cuts are something that easily could happen and EiH is not set in stone to ever come back, but you have louder voices talking about things like wishing to gatekeep smash so the series is more niche, asking that almost every third party being cut, or other heavily unpopular positions like that. The next page or two will be derailed by people obviously not being in favor of such a radical position, with at least one well written response heavily ratioing the controversial post. Then discussion of something actually different will happen for a few posts, before someone needs to kick the hornet's nest again.

At this point I am exhausted because most of the same few people kick the hornet's nest when at this point its clear their beliefs are unpopular. Now, everyone has unpopular beliefs for Smash in some way, shape, or form. If you make a coherent argument, even the most unpopular ideas can become respected and understood. Threads like RTC or Character Exploration were great examples of this, where at one point not as popular ideas or concepts gained a lot of new fans due to good cases and interesting ideas being put forward. But its boring to see the same people make the same arguments and the same counter arguments not even being acknowledged 70% of the time.

If it has not been clear by my posts, I personally think that cuts are not the most likely, and if we do get them we likely wont get the thanos snap of most of the third parties, clones, "irrelevant characters" and what have you that most pro cuts people champion. I obviously have my biases, but it is frustrating to see people act like their niche, unpopular talking points need to be discussed as gospel around here. Could cuts happen? Absolutely, but even if you do think cuts are going to happen, acting like they will just nuke third parties is kind of egregious. We are not losing Cloud and Sephiroth when Hero is one of the most popular and beloved characters in Japan. So long as Sega and Namco are on board with smash, Joker and Kazuya are probably safe since they likely would be negotiating for them at the same time as Sonic or Pac Man.

If there is one thing I think roots this desire for cuts for third parties, it is a distaste for how Ultimate speculation went. I've seen plenty of people talk about how the Ult Speculation scene in DLC was dreadful. If you only wanted first parties, it was obviously going to be dreadful to be in an environment where third parties are king. It can easily be frustrating to support smaller first party choices that could have been cool base game additions when they seem unlikely to end up in the game and are thus ignored. No one likes seeing their most wanted get swept under the rug because they are not uber popular or relevant at the moment. In the past, I have said that I think whining about this situation is not productive whatsoever. I want to stress once again i get not liking the situation. I went through Smash 4 for instance with people not even tolerating a lot of third party picks, and as such held picks I would have gone crazy for like Crash, Cloud, or Sora a bit closer to my chest. When the environment seems against you, it sucks. Plain and simple.

That being said, I still think whining about how things are is the least productive thing you can do. No one is forcing you not to want or talk about your character. I spent a large part of Ultimate talking about how Sephiroth was a dark horse pick. I know plenty of people who pushed characters that were more niche despite them not being seen as likely. You are the master of your own destiny. You do not have to whine about cuts or nuking third parties just to get some idealized version of smash that never truly existed even during Melee's development. While you can always hold onto whatever beliefs you want, sometimes you have to accept some things are not exactly gonna happen while Sakurai is at the helm. We won't see non video game characters, we likely will end up staying somewhat close to his vision of smash, which even in Melee's early days had third parties at a concept he was mulling. The Smash 2 poll did have third parties on it. Sonic and Snake were both considered for Melee. Third parties are clearly part of Sakurai's vision, so while you clearly have the freedom to dislike the fact they are here and have the freedom to hope that they do not take up too much of the base roster, you have to be realistic at the same time.

To be fair, there are plenty of people who do want cuts potentially so Nintendo can focus on other aspects of the game. While I have my own issues with this point of view for a variety of reasons (Smash Ultimate's small base game newcomer number can also be attributed towards when the roster was selected, we did get a lot of new content like Spirits, 50+ HD stages, a whole story mode, and thematic fun classic modes, bringing characters back is easier than making new ones), I get it. I might not agree with everything in it but I get it. Some people have a different design philosophy for smash and what they expect from it. I want a game I can play with my friends or at tournaments with all sorts of characters from all over gaming. Others want a more dynamic single player experience. Other people want to sneak rollback past Harada. People clearly have different expectations for Smash.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is frustrating seeing the same thing happen every week 2-3 times, where we go in circles. I had my beefs with the last social thread for this as well to an extent. It would go through the same motions of Geno discussion, rumor discussion, whether there would be a FP3, the list goes on. But I feel with this it has gotten even worse without any glimmer of a new smash on the horizon. It has only been two months since Sora was added and Newcomer Speculation died. I have my own thoughts on how that all went down, but regardless its taxing to see the same third party bashing nuclear cuts argument for the 15th time at least this month.

Extremely well said. I support cuts mainly because I like fighting games with smaller character counts. (I consider NASB's 22 characters a big roster.) But I want this thread to talk about literally anything else. Plus everyone gets so mad around here and hurls insults when you disagree with them about what direction the funny Nintendo fighting game should take.

 

[Chuderz]

Here are some ideas I have to freshen up an Ultimate DX's gameplay.

Introducing Super Smash Attacks!
Everybody gets Terry's GO! Meter! To keep it short and sweet everybody gets two (Terry's) command input attacks when their GO! meter activates like Terry. Doing the attack damages your character some (think Pichu) and fatigues your character (whether you landed it or not) for a set amount of time determined by both how much you mash out and how damaged you are. They're about as fast and accurate as Terry's two special command input GO! moves. I thought maybe Fighting Game Characters (Kazuya, Terry, Ryu/Ken) wouldn't get fatigued using these moves as well to keep it a little bit more special for them but I'd offset this by having them damage themselves more to compensate for this perk.


Finally here's a Final Smash rework:
Meter no longer builds on its own at all. You fight to build your meter. If you have exactly or over half your meter when you lose a stock (or get KO'd in stamina mode) you lose half of that meter and if you have less than half your meter you lose ALL of your meter when losing a stock. Make Final Smashes blockable but of course if your shield is weak it's either a break or a confirm, whatever Smash team thinks would be best. Assign a specific button (X preferably) to Final Smash attacks so that you can use your specials in the charged state. All characters get a competitive Final Smash so some characters will have two Final Smashes, this can be addressed in advance rules (i.e. locking characters to their competitive Final Smash). Competitive Final Smashes are essentially cutscenes/inescapable-attack-sequences that do a fixed amount of damage across the entire cast (I'd keep it a strict 30 damage) and knockback is exclusively determined (balanced) by the exact weight of the character on the receiving end. Some characters already have competitive Final Smashes (based on my criteria) so they're fine as is and just need the updates everyone else is getting. Some characters' "uncompetitive" Final Smashes can be incorporated into Super Smash Attacks instead in some cases. Peach's and Daisy's heals would be an example of NOT fitting either a retooled Super Smash Attack or a competitive Final Smash. All of these competitive Final Smashes will be Neutral-X inputs or whatever you decide to set the button to.

Give everyone a counter. Not a special attack but just a button input in the same way grab functions currently. This'll create a positive feedback loop in defensive gameplay between parries, blocks (shield), and counters!

Do aerial Smash attacks Sakurai! It's a sick idea!

 

[Megadoomer]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

 

[skylanders fan]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

Toon Zelda and just like Zelda but no I think skull kid could be pretty fun and play somewhat like Mewtwo

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

Tingle, easily.

Though I don't know the best moveset options. Definitely the Balloon Trip Up B, and he can drop bombs while in the air. That's all I got. XD

 

[Rie Sonomura]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

Impa deserves it tbh. Technically recurring in many games like the main three. I’d say go for her Skyward Sword design or even AoC since there was a Spirit of that version in Ultimate

 

[Diddy Kong]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

I've always advocated for Impa. She's the longest standing character, outside Ganon who's already sort of there anyway. Shouldn't matter much cause they both debuted in the first Zelda. Impa should be based around her Age of Calamity move set, having a small kodachi as her weapon, and having a clone mechanic that increases her overall reach, damage output and KO power significantly. Her regular attacks and aerials are all fast and relatively safe, think of a slower Mytrha and Sheik hybrid, her Specials can trigger her clone mechanic. She also throws kunai as projectiles, and moves and jumps very quickly in the air, but slightly less on the ground. Very combo orientated , lacks KO power if she doesn't have her clones. Clones can be dispatched by the enemy by attacks that to over 25% damage.

 

[Trevenant]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

Have a darknut that loses armor and becomes lighter as it gets hit. Wacky, but it's more interesting than your usual Zelda discussion lol... Impa, champions, Ghirahim, Midna and wolf link as well as a reworked Ganondorf with the occasional mentions of Tingle, Ganon, stuff like Hilda, Ravio and Demise as echoes, with the very few memes surrounding Groose and the token new design discussion Zelda characters get when a new Zelda game has released, barring Sheik who doesn't really show up in person, other designs of Link, and kinda dorf

 

[SPEN18]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

Impa, Skull Kid, and BOTW rep are at the top of the pile I think, in some order. Ghirahim and Midna are also there.
I know it's tough to choose between the Champions, and choosing one doesn't feel right to some people, but they choose between Pokemon starters practically every gen so I don't see why they couldn't do it. Mipha is my pick for a nice spear+healer moveset, but people are welcome to field arguments for the others. Maybe BOTW2 will cause an obvious new rep to surface, idk.

--

Also, I'm going to keep discussing cuts when they come up in the thread in part because it's a big piece of what I think could make the next Smash a better overall game with a more fair roster selection than just pushing auto-include when a character has been here before. I don't just resign myself to total agreement when Sakurai or Nintendo decides on a character, and historically I feel there has been way too much pandering to veterans among Smash fans to the point that it clouds vision of what other possibilities there are for the roster and the game as a whole.

And I'm going to continue discussing cuts for third parties in particular (when relevant, which in a general speculation thread it often is), regardless of how likely it is; I recognize many of the third parties are probably gonna come back and they're probably going to keep adding more, but that doesn't stop me from disliking it or actively advocating against it on a character-by-character basis. It's not "gatekeeping" or whatever you wanna call it any more or less than not wanting any other character for any other objective or subjective reason. Of course if people want to root for or make arguments in favor of any particular third party character, that is totally fine. There are even a few such cases where I'd probably agree. But I'm not just going to shut down discussion of possibilities that, frankly, I enjoy talking about after a few years of them not even being on the table.

I recognize it may be unpopular to talk about for people who loved EiH and actively fear cuts during every single base game speculation cycle, but at the end of the day these are just opinions that we're discussing, hopefully, for fun. Besides, nobody is obligated to read or respond to every single post in a general thread like this.

 

[Sucumbio]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

I'd love a stalfos, moblin or darknut

They could be heavies with generally slow movement but with burst options, kinda like when you can only hit darknuts in back or side on LoZ for nes but they'll do sudden direction changes that surprise you and you get hit.

They should have anti camping mechanics too like giant shields or good projectiles.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

I wanna say Tingle, but (hot take) I feel it'd be more interesting if he got added as a rep for his spinoff series, rather than as a Zelda rep. Kinda like what happened with DK, Yoshi, and Wario.

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

If I had to be objective, I’d say Impa is the most likely pick given the direction Nintendo as of late has gone with her.

But if I had full say, Skull Kid. I’d love to see them because I’d love another villain and the idea of a trickster kind of character just tickles my fancy. We have magic users but I’d love one that is more of a jester than a sorcerer if that makes sense.

 

[Yamat08]

Melee's lineup really is weird, when you think about it. Especially when you discount the clones (who were added in at the tail-end of development as bonuses) and look at the actual unique newcomer lineup.



You do have some obvious no-brainers like Bowser, Peach, Zelda and Mewtwo, but as much as I like them, it's just kinda weird to think that the likes of Sheik, Ice Climbers and Mr. Game & Watch were prioritised over notable omissions like Diddy Kong, Wario, and Dedede. Marth too, especially when you consider that he was just gonna be expunged from the non-JP versions of Melee anyways.

The most logical picks for Melee to me where always Bowser, Mewtwo and Marth, even if Marth only made sense retrospectively. Didn't understand why he was picked when I was younger obviously. We all didn't...

I actually liked the inclusion of Marth, even though I was just hearing about what Fire Emblem for the first time much like everyone else in the west. His Japan-only status showed that Melee was truly going all-in on the Nintendo references, something which I thought was only further helped by the addition of Mr. Game & Watch and the trophies (incidentally, I was familiar with Game & Watch through the Gallery games on Game Boy, but it was crazy to see them actually represent the LCD line-up as a character).

The exact second Event Match in Melee had you fight a big DK in his regular colors, and a smaller red costume DK.

Now I'm curious. If there was a return of specific Event Matches and other content from older games, how could they potentially be updated now that the roster has increased significantly?

God, I wish that this thread had more structured discussion at points because things have been going in ****ing circles.

You have people that are making posts about cuts, with ranging degrees of reasonability. Sure, you have a few people highlighting that cuts are something that easily could happen and EiH is not set in stone to ever come back, but you have louder voices talking about things like wishing to gatekeep smash so the series is more niche, asking that almost every third party being cut, or other heavily unpopular positions like that. The next page or two will be derailed by people obviously not being in favor of such a radical position, with at least one well written response heavily ratioing the controversial post. Then discussion of something actually different will happen for a few posts, before someone needs to kick the hornet's nest again.

At this point I am exhausted because most of the same few people kick the hornet's nest when at this point its clear their beliefs are unpopular. Now, everyone has unpopular beliefs for Smash in some way, shape, or form. If you make a coherent argument, even the most unpopular ideas can become respected and understood. Threads like RTC or Character Exploration were great examples of this, where at one point not as popular ideas or concepts gained a lot of new fans due to good cases and interesting ideas being put forward. But its boring to see the same people make the same arguments and the same counter arguments not even being acknowledged 70% of the time.

If it has not been clear by my posts, I personally think that cuts are not the most likely, and if we do get them we likely wont get the thanos snap of most of the third parties, clones, "irrelevant characters" and what have you that most pro cuts people champion. I obviously have my biases, but it is frustrating to see people act like their niche, unpopular talking points need to be discussed as gospel around here. Could cuts happen? Absolutely, but even if you do think cuts are going to happen, acting like they will just nuke third parties is kind of egregious. We are not losing Cloud and Sephiroth when Hero is one of the most popular and beloved characters in Japan. So long as Sega and Namco are on board with smash, Joker and Kazuya are probably safe since they likely would be negotiating for them at the same time as Sonic or Pac Man.

If there is one thing I think roots this desire for cuts for third parties, it is a distaste for how Ultimate speculation went. I've seen plenty of people talk about how the Ult Speculation scene in DLC was dreadful. If you only wanted first parties, it was obviously going to be dreadful to be in an environment where third parties are king. It can easily be frustrating to support smaller first party choices that could have been cool base game additions when they seem unlikely to end up in the game and are thus ignored. No one likes seeing their most wanted get swept under the rug because they are not uber popular or relevant at the moment. In the past, I have said that I think whining about this situation is not productive whatsoever. I want to stress once again i get not liking the situation. I went through Smash 4 for instance with people not even tolerating a lot of third party picks, and as such held picks I would have gone crazy for like Crash, Cloud, or Sora a bit closer to my chest. When the environment seems against you, it sucks. Plain and simple.

That being said, I still think whining about how things are is the least productive thing you can do. No one is forcing you not to want or talk about your character. I spent a large part of Ultimate talking about how Sephiroth was a dark horse pick. I know plenty of people who pushed characters that were more niche despite them not being seen as likely. You are the master of your own destiny. You do not have to whine about cuts or nuking third parties just to get some idealized version of smash that never truly existed even during Melee's development. While you can always hold onto whatever beliefs you want, sometimes you have to accept some things are not exactly gonna happen while Sakurai is at the helm. We won't see non video game characters, we likely will end up staying somewhat close to his vision of smash, which even in Melee's early days had third parties at a concept he was mulling. The Smash 2 poll did have third parties on it. Sonic and Snake were both considered for Melee. Third parties are clearly part of Sakurai's vision, so while you clearly have the freedom to dislike the fact they are here and have the freedom to hope that they do not take up too much of the base roster, you have to be realistic at the same time.

To be fair, there are plenty of people who do want cuts potentially so Nintendo can focus on other aspects of the game. While I have my own issues with this point of view for a variety of reasons (Smash Ultimate's small base game newcomer number can also be attributed towards when the roster was selected, we did get a lot of new content like Spirits, 50+ HD stages, a whole story mode, and thematic fun classic modes, bringing characters back is easier than making new ones), I get it. I might not agree with everything in it but I get it. Some people have a different design philosophy for smash and what they expect from it. I want a game I can play with my friends or at tournaments with all sorts of characters from all over gaming. Others want a more dynamic single player experience. Other people want to sneak rollback past Harada. People clearly have different expectations for Smash.

I guess what I am trying to say is it is frustrating seeing the same thing happen every week 2-3 times, where we go in circles. I had my beefs with the last social thread for this as well to an extent. It would go through the same motions of Geno discussion, rumor discussion, whether there would be a FP3, the list goes on. But I feel with this it has gotten even worse without any glimmer of a new smash on the horizon. It has only been two months since Sora was added and Newcomer Speculation died. I have my own thoughts on how that all went down, but regardless its taxing to see the same third party bashing nuclear cuts argument for the 15th time at least this month.

Yet another reason why I don't like that all of this is being relegated to a single thread. If we're not gonna have character-specific discussion threads again, can we at least relegate the potential future status of Everyone Is Here to its own thread? I'd say that's what's dragging out this thread the most.

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

Even though it's another version of one of the triforce-wielders, I would advocate for Ganon, namely his trident-wielding version from games like Link To The Past. I mean, technically it's Ganon who's the series' main antagonist, not Ganondorf (who'd only appeared for one game and a Space World demo at the time of his debut). Also, the Triforce of Power is still the only one with a single rep (and he's a semi-clone).

And for my not-too-likely pick, I'm really fond of Lana from Hyrule Warriors. She has a good variety of options by default (being one of the only characters in that game with three weapons), and I think she's a good rep for Koei Tecmo's line of Nintendo-based crossovers (being an original character from their most popular entry, as well as the one that the story most heavily centers around along with Cia). Plus, she a cutie. ^^ But I wouldn't hold my breath on her being playable, though I do think it's criminal that she (and anything else from the first Hyrule Warriors) doesn't at least have a Spirit. Meanwhile, the sequel (which is story-wise more of an expansion on Breath of the Wild and Breath of the Wild alone), got to have its own Spirit Board event, and that saddens me.

 

[ZelDan]

The only Zelda character I really have any interest in seeing now is Impa. She could always echo Sheik or be her semi-clone if Sheik sticks around the next game. of course I wouldn't be against Impa being unique either.

or if Sheik doesn't stick around, well, then I guess it doesn't matter as much how similar to sheik she'd be.

 

[Guynamednelson]

3rd party characters typically brings the hype and sales. Banjo...brought the hype

Is this yet another one of those cases where people forget Banjo's popularity in the Smash community was from a desire to have him not be third-party once again?

 

[Gengar84]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

I think it’s a bit late for her but I would still really love to see Impa based on her original Hyrule Warriors design and moveset. She looked so cool in those games and I thought both the great sword and the naginata would make for really great Smash movesets.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Is this yet another one of those cases where people forget Banjo's popularity in the Smash community was from a desire to have him not be third-party once again?

Wait, what do you mean?

 

[Guynamednelson]

Wait, what do you mean?

Banjo-Kazooie should be proof that hype isn't as simple as "first-party bad, third-party good". They were well received because they were a part of millions of N64 owners' childhoods, failed to continue appearing on Nintendo systems because of Rare's MS buyout, and FINALLY got to appear on a Nintendo system once more thanks to Fighters Pass 1.

In other words, because their fans wish they were first party.

 

[Yamat08]

Wait, what do you mean?

I think he's saying that the main reason for Banjo&Kazooie's demand was because they had a history as Nintendo characters, which hardly makes them some random third-party requests (in fact, they're only popular for their Nintendo-published games..... their stint under Microsoft hasn't been great).

 

[Perkilator]

So anyways, who do you generally wish was in Smash?

I have a whole Google Doc about that.

 

[Gengar84]

I think he's saying that the main reason for Banjo&Kazooie's demand was because they had a history as Nintendo characters, which hardly makes them some random third-party requests (in fact, they're only popular for their Nintendo-published games..... their stint under Microsoft hasn't been great).

Yeah, that’s a big reason why I support Rare in Smash so much. Rare has such a great history with Nintendo during the SNES and N64 generations making some of the most iconic games on those consoles. The Battletoads are my brother’s favorite video game characters ever and Killer Instinct has always been my favorite fighting game franchise and has so many awesome characters.

 

[Will]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

Tingle.

In my head, he'd play like the Zelda archetypal version of Wario; with Rupees and bombs and balloons and all that.

 

[Yamat08]

Yeah, that’s a big reason why I support Rare in Smash so much. Rare has such a great history with Nintendo during the SNES and N64 generations making some of the most iconic games on those consoles. The Battletoads are my brother’s favorite video game characters ever and Killer Instinct has always been my favorite fighting game franchise and has so many awesome characters.

To be fair, Battletoads has never been published by Nintendo. They're kinda like HAL with Eggerland/Adventure of Lolo, only indirectly related to Nintendo by proxy (something I think I brought up WAY earlier in this thread). I think Killer Instinct was a Nintendo game, though.

Though while we're on the subject of "honorary Nintendo characters", does anyone have any particular ones in mind? I still view KOS-MOS in a similar situation as Bayonetta, personally (Bayonetta=series continuation funded by Nintendo, KOS-MOS=creators bought by Nintendo).

 

[chocolatejr9]

To be fair, Battletoads has never been published by Nintendo. They're kinda like HAL with Eggerland/Adventure of Lolo, only indirectly related to Nintendo by proxy (something I think I brought up WAY earlier in this thread). I think Killer Instinct was a Nintendo game, though.

Though while we're on the subject of "honorary Nintendo characters", does anyone have any particular ones in mind? I still view KOS-MOS in a similar situation as Bayonetta, personally (Bayonetta=series continuation funded by Nintendo, KOS-MOS=creators bought by Nintendo).

Would Sonic count? He was basically sleeping on Mario's couch for awhile...

 

[Gengar84]

To be fair, Battletoads has never been published by Nintendo. They're kinda like HAL with Eggerland/Adventure of Lolo, only indirectly related to Nintendo by proxy (something I think I brought up WAY earlier in this thread). I think Killer Instinct was a Nintendo game, though.

Though while we're on the subject of "honorary Nintendo characters", does anyone have any particular ones in mind? I still view KOS-MOS in a similar situation as Bayonetta, personally (Bayonetta=series continuation funded by Nintendo, KOS-MOS=creators bought by Nintendo).

I always associate Crono with Nintendo since Chrono Trigger originally released on the SNES. Chrono Trigger is one of my favorite games ever and I’d love to see a character from it in Smash. Magus is one of my top three most wanted but I’d still be really happy with Crono himself.

Another character I still associate with Nintendo is Bill Rizer. There have been Contra games on other consoles but the games for the NES and SNES were the most memorable to me.

 

[Wonder Smash]

To be fair, Battletoads has never been published by Nintendo. They're kinda like HAL with Eggerland/Adventure of Lolo, only indirectly related to Nintendo by proxy (something I think I brought up WAY earlier in this thread). I think Killer Instinct was a Nintendo game, though.

Though while we're on the subject of "honorary Nintendo characters", does anyone have any particular ones in mind? I still view KOS-MOS in a similar situation as Bayonetta, personally (Bayonetta=series continuation funded by Nintendo, KOS-MOS=creators bought by Nintendo).

Ryu Hayabusa. His situation is the same as Mega Man and Simon's.

Also, never forget the history Koei Tecmo has with Nintendo.

Of course, this could use an update now that there's even more games between them (Age of Calamity, Marvel Ultimate Alliance 3, and Buddy Mission BOND).

 

[chocolatejr9]

Ryu Hayabusa. His situation is the same as Mega Man and Simon.

Also, never forget the history Koei Tecmo has with Nintendo.

View attachment 340775

Of course, this could use an update.

Man, if Nintendo ever woke up one day and decided "hey, I wanna buy a big name third party", I would not be surprised if they went with Koei Tecmo...

 

[Wonder Smash]

Man, if Nintendo ever woke up one day and decided "hey, I wanna buy a big name third party", I would not be surprised if they went with Koei Tecmo...

Neither would I.

This also makes it all the more questionable why a Koei Tecmo character isn't in Smash already. And I'm not saying this just because he's one of my MW characters but Hayabusa's absence from Smash is definitely a glaring one. It's a shame, really.

Also, just to add something else not mentioned in that pic, Dynasty Warriors Vs., a 3DS exclusive game that featured Link and Zero Suit Samus as costumes and Hayabusa as a playable character, also featured the Smash 64 version of the Zelda theme. So yeah, a Koei Tecmo game even features Smash content...just like a lot of companies that have characters in Smash.

 

[ARandomFruit]

Let's say we got a new Legend of Zelda character in the playable roster of the next Smash game (it's certainly long overdue) - who would you want to see? How could they work in terms of gameplay?

I'd want Vaati the most out of any Zelda character. I'd imagine him in his minish form with some lightning and wind attacks for specials maybe summoning the mini Vaati's for a neutral special, also him using his stretchy arms from four swords as a special or some neutral attacks. The only thing I can't think of is a Final Smash. I doubt he'd ever be added considering he hasn't appeared since Minish Cap but I can still hope,

 

[Yamat08]

Honestly, I'm really intrigued about stories of third-party IPs eventually becoming Nintendo franchises (things like Fatal Frame, kinda things like Glory of Heracles and Bayonetta, and what WOULD have been Rare as a whole had things gone differently). I mean, not that I particularly advocate for monopolies, but the Smash roster sure gives the sense of Nintendo being this big, warm family. Probably one reason I'm a little obsessed with the idea of KOS-MOS in Smash, it'd be a rough confirmation that she, much like Monolith Soft itself, is now under the Nintendo umbrella (though I guess for what it's worth, the KOS-MOS Re: design from Xenoblade 2 specifically is a Nintendo copyright).

Neither would I.

This also makes it all the more questionable why a Koei Tecmo character isn't in Smash already. And I'm not saying this just because he's one of my MW characters but Hayabusa's absence from Smash is definitely a glaring one. It's a shame, really.

Also, just to add something else not mentioned in that pic, Dynasty Warriors Vs., a 3DS exclusive game that featured Link and Zero Suit Samus as costumes and Hayabusa as a playable character, also featured the Smash 64 version of the Zelda theme. So yeah, a Koei Tecmo game even features Smash content...just like a lot of companies that have characters in Smash.

Can't forget about Samurai Warriors 3. Initially developed as a Wii exclusive AND it featured Takamaru from The Mysterious Murasame Castle (ironically, one of his first major presences in the west, years before the WiiU Virtual Console release).

 

[Perkilator]

Would Sonic count? He was basically sleeping on Mario's couch for awhile...

Not really. He's also been sleeping on other console makers' couches since SEGA stopped making their own consoles.

 

[Geno Boost]

I am surprised we haven’t gotten Ryu Hayabusa mii costume despite Tecmo close relationship with Nintendo