Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[PeridotGX]

My personal stance is that fourth parties should be allowed so long as they have significant gaming presence. We were talking about him a few weeks ago - there's no reason Geralt, the main character of one of the most beloved games of all time, shouldn't be allowed. Same with characters from last year's near unanimous GOTY, Baldur's Gate 3 (which is apparently a DnD spinoff). And honestly, between the Marvel VS Capcom series and the Insomniac games, Spider-Man wouldn't be entirely unreasonable.

So long as Sakurai is involved, I doubt we're going to get fourth parties. This is just my personal philosophy.

 

[ninjahmos]

I still think Dark Matter would be pretty cool, either as a playable character or a boss.

 

[SharkLord]

How likely do you think a new Zelda character is?

Like... ANY new Zelda character?

Hmm... Hard to say until Smash 6 is actually announced, but Zelda sold gangbusters the past decade even by Switch standards, so someone from the BotW subseries seems pretty reasonable. That said, Zelda's in a weird spot since it's got a rotating cast, but also has a consistent power trio who keep showing up across (almost) every game. Logically, they could just update the main three to whatever the latest installment is and represent it that way. And like others have mentioned, the Smash fanbase is scattered between a bunch of one-shot characters from older titles, without a single focal point like Ridley or K. Rool were.

Although, once Age of Calamity gave us a fairly popular incarnation of Impa, people seemed to cotton on to her pretty well. And for once, Impa's a recurring character, so you could drop her in without worrying about relevancy

 

[Ivander]

It always comes back to non-gaming IPs, eh?

Where else would it go when there is no next Smash to talk about yet? We're stuck on Groundhog Day until next Smash Bros finally happens.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Godwin's Law

You know who else wanted Goku in Smash? inb4 my mom

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Smash speculation has its own version of Godwin's Law.

The longer a discussion goes on, the more likely it is to eventually revolve around Goku

He will ALWAYS come back....

 

[Louie G.]

Ultimate was probably the best bet for an older character due to the Ballot, and the most we got out of it was the Moon as an Assist and a Skull Kid Mii Costume as if to acknowledge he did ok on the Ballot.

Yeah - and with attention put on Everyone Is Here instead, Zelda got the dev time equivalent of a new character with Young Link built from the ground up. Pairing that with the Link, Zelda and Ganondorf visual reworks, as well as Link's slight moveset adjustments the series got a decent amount of "new" compared to other series without actually being "new".

And unfortunately I think this was just in direct opposition with developing a new character with how little space was available. So I'm not sure if I believe Ultimate was the best opportunity for it to happen on paper, but it certainly was the best stars align scenario for an "old" character. Obviously impossible to say but had we gotten the amount of brand new characters we usually do I think there's a decent enough chance Skull Kid would have been one of them. But focus understandably went to representing recent series growth (Splatoon, Animal Crossing, Pokemon) or the biggest of the big fan requests (K. Rool, Ridley).

Time will tell how influential the ballot will be on the next roster since it's been a good while by now, but if demand for someone like Skull Kid or Isaac remains visible that'd be enough for them to surmise that those results are not totally out of date.

And like others have mentioned, the Smash fanbase is scattered between a bunch of one-shot characters from older titles, without a single focal point like Ridley or K. Rool were.

I spoke on this more in my bigger post, but I really don't think this checks out. Skull Kid, Midna... who else? We're looking at two characters, and Skull Kid is, at least the way it looks in communities like this, more popular than Midna in a Smash context. I don't think this is as obtrusive as people think it is, and if anything positive buzz around two Zelda characters is arguably better than one.

At least it feels like a fan of one is typically enough of a fan of the other as well. Again, kinda like K. Rool and Dixie which was not an issue.

 

[WeirdChillFever]

Honestly the Zelda conundrum is easy, the fanbase just needs to rally behind objectively correct pick Master Kohga

 

[SharkLord]

Time will tell how influential the ballot will be on the next roster since it's been a good while by now, but if demand for someone like Skull Kid or Isaac remains visible that'd be enough for them to surmise that those results are not totally out of date.

Honestly I wouldn't be too surprised if there's some lingering ballot influence. We got, what, eleven newcomers in base, with half of them being Echoes? And a lot of popular requests could only get in as Assist Trophies or Mii Costumes rather than full-fledged fighters. Sure, we got guys like Banjo and Sora as DLC, but the likes of Min Min or Byleth weren't even created when the poll was held, and I feel like the likes of Joker or Kazuya weren't super big requests back in 2016. I'm sure there's a fair bit of popular ballot picks left who could be added to the next Smash game.

 

[HyperSomari64]

What if we merge the non-video game disscussion with zelda discussion
equals, Cartoon Ganon as a dlc skin. :v

 

[Stratos]

The video game characters I want to come as newcomers to the Super Smash Bros. series is 89 if I counted correctly, but I don't think I need to show the list, anyway it's a matter of which ones will come.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Sora

The final DLC character was a ballot pick, I guess that's something to consider?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

He will ALWAYS come back....

I'm going to choose to blame this for the recent crashing of the boards because that image just radiates too much power

 

[SharkLord]

The final DLC character was a ballot pick, I guess that's something to consider?

I suppose so, but it's also worth mentioning Sora wasn't originally planned and was a last-minute addition who came about because Sakurai bumped into a Disney executive and the chips all fell into place. Had that not happened, we probably would've ended with Kazuya; I'm sure Heihachi had some votes on the ballot, at least, but I feel like Tekken as a whole wasn't a super high priority back in the day (Though I could be wrong), and Kazuya in particular went under almost everyone's radars. Either way, not exactly a SUPER fan-favorite in the vein of Ridley or Banjo

 

[pitchfulprocessing]

The exact numbers weren't released, but according to Sakurai, Sora was Number 1, with Banjo & Kazooie not far from them(They were the 2nd character behind Sora that was picked, meaning either they were 2nd place or there were characters between Sora and Banjo that they couldn't get, so Banjo & Kazooie were the 2nd highest they could get).
That said, if the rumors are true that Nintendo was very surprised at King K. Rool's popularity, he probably was one of the highest voted 1st Party fighters, if not the highest 1st Party, to get in.

2nd highest Fighter they could get. Banjo & Kazooie were not confirmed to be 2nd place. Just that out of the fighters behind Sora, Banjo & Kazooie were the 2nd highest that they got in Smash Bros. They could've been 2nd place, but it's also possible that there were characters between Sora and Banjo that they couldn't get.

I'm responding a bit late but I think something that tends to get overlooked is that Sakurai specifies Sora was the most requested among new characters specifically, not just in the English version but the original Japanese as well

"新規参戦" = new participants

Given that, the fact that he mentioned that some old characters were above Bayonetta in his book from 2019, specifically namedropping Snake, and the ballot results influencing Ultimate's design, I kind of think Snake was probably the number one most voted character globally, or at least like, very close to Sora. It's a minor thing, but I think it's interesting.

On the Zelda thing, I get the idea behind rallying behind one single character, and I agree that would probably help, but I also don't think it's like necessary or anything. It's not like Sakurai and the dev team are blind lol, if a bunch of people are requesting Zelda in general but not agreeing on who, that still gives the impression a Zelda character is wanted. That's pretty much exactly what happened with Castlevania, where the series as a whole was requested a lot on the ballot and Sakurai had to choose. Don't think it'd be the end of the world in any case.

 

[Perkilator]

Here's an interesting game: cut 14 veterans from Ultimate and add 14 newcomers in their place. For me:

Spoiler: Cuts

1. Dark Samus
2. Dr. Mario
3. Pichu
4. Lucina
5. Young Link
6. Roy
7. Chrom
8. Squirtle
9. Ivysaur
10. Lucas
11. Wolf
12. Corrin
13. Richter
14. Piranha Plant

Spoiler: Newcomers

1. Waluigi
2. Dixie Kong
3. Rauru
4. Raven Beak
5. Bandana Waddle Dee
6. Meowscarada
7. Oatchi
8. Noah & Mio
9. Octoling
10. Officer Howard
11. Ring Fit Trainee
12. Alucard
13. Dr. Eggman
14. Chun-Li

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Here's an interesting game: cut 14 veterans from Ultimate and add 14 newcomers in their place. For me:

Spoiler: Cuts

1. Dark Samus
2. Dr. Mario
3. Pichu
4. Lucina
5. Young Link
6. Roy
7. Chrom
8. Squirtle
9. Ivysaur
10. Lucas
11. Wolf
12. Corrin
13. Richter
14. Piranha Plant

Spoiler: Newcomers

1. Waluigi
2. Dixie Kong
3. Rauru
4. Raven Beak
5. Bandana Waddle Dee
6. Meowscarada
7. Oatchi
8. Noah & Mio
9. Octoling
10. Officer Howard
11. Ring Fit Trainee
12. Alucard
13. Dr. Eggman
14. Ring Fit Trainee

I know Ring Fit was a success but does it really need to have its Trainee in two separate slots?

 

[DarthEnderX]

....that is such a weird thing to try and spin into an exception.

Yes, Lucario technically debuted in a movie, but he was still originally designed with Gen 4 in mind before anything else, making him a gaming character. The movie just happened to be completed and released before Diamond and Pearl did.

And it doesn't change the fact that Pokemon itself was still originally a video game property.

 

[Gengar84]

My personal stance is that fourth parties should be allowed so long as they have significant gaming presence. We were talking about him a few weeks ago - there's no reason Geralt, the main character of one of the most beloved games of all time, shouldn't be allowed. Same with characters from last year's near unanimous GOTY, Baldur's Gate 3 (which is apparently a DnD spinoff). And honestly, between the Marvel VS Capcom series and the Insomniac games, Spider-Man wouldn't be entirely unreasonable.

So long as Sakurai is involved, I doubt we're going to get fourth parties. This is just my personal philosophy.

Anything that allows for the TMNT in Smash is good in my book. TMNT is my favorite franchise ever and has pretty significant history in gaming. They’ve also been in at least three Smash clones (Smash Up, Nick All-Stars, and Brawlhala that I know of) so Smash itself would be awesome.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

And it doesn't change the fact that Pokemon itself was still originally a video game property.

Yeah, but there's a difference between a video game character showing up in the anime and Ash Ketchum.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

On the topic of pushing for a priority Zelda newcomer... well, I may not have a horse in this race, but I must object to the idea. On paper, the notion of keeping a top spot sound fine and dandy, until it doesn't happen for over a decade and shows no sign of improving. I won't go too far into my previous ramblings on a certain franchise's candidate bottlenecking, but bottom line, keeping a high candidate on full force actually can hinder the discussion the longer the choice goes on standby. Zelda may be remarkably dormant with newcomers right now, but I believe it is technically in a better spot leaving its newcomer options more loosely oriented.
Also, when HAS pushing for the best conceivable option resulted in the fighter people wanted? I can name a couple of fighters that got in with synchronized expectation, but none of which I consider being all that exciting in the long run. And remember, characters such as Ridley were deemed impossibilities at points, yet got pushed despite the visible odds.

 

[Will]

On the topic of pushing for a priority Zelda newcomer... well, I may not have a horse in this race, but I must object to the idea. On paper, the notion of keeping a top spot sound fine and dandy, until it doesn't happen for over a decade and shows no sign of improving. I won't go too far into my previous ramblings on a certain franchise's candidate bottlenecking, but bottom line, keeping a high candidate on full force actually can hinder the discussion the longer the choice goes on standby. Zelda may be remarkably dormant with newcomers right now, but I believe it is technically in a better spot leaving its newcomer options more loosely oriented.
Also, when HAS pushing for the best conceivable option resulted in the fighter people wanted? I can name a couple of fighters that got in with synchronized expectation, but none of which I consider being all that exciting in the long run. And remember, characters such as Ridley were deemed impossibilities at points, yet got pushed despite the visible odds.

I’ll take this as Tingle propaganda and label you a man of culture.

 

[Perkilator]

I know Ring Fit was a success but does it really need to have its Trainee in two separate slots?

Whoops. Fixed it.

 

[Ivander]

And it doesn't change the fact that Pokemon itself was still originally a video game property.

So is this. Surprisingly

This is how we get Transformers into Smash Bros.

Spoiler

That's all I have to add. Just thought I'd mention a fun fact just because I thought I would and not because I was reminded of this series when I have been going through my back catalogue and one of the recent ones I did was the GBA Metabots game, the Metabee version.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Yeah, but there's a difference between a video game character showing up in the anime and Ash Ketchum.

Even so, Smash hasn't shied away from directly referencing anime-original aspects, including namedropping Ash himself in 's Smash 4 Trophy. And then there's the fact Ash-Greninja exists in Ultimate as well.

But of course, special treatment from Nintendo having ownership of the IP (and before someone points it out, yes I am aware Nintendo isn't the sole owner; not the point) and the fact Pokémon is a gaming IP to start with is at play.

Only other case I think something similar could happen would ironically be Digimon, given it's a property owned by Bandai Namco and is a virtual pet IP first.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

As far as Zelda newcomers go, my votes still go to either Tetra or Skull Kid.

Better yet, why not just add both?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Even so, Smash hasn't shied away from directly referencing anime-original aspects, including namedropping Ash himself in 's Smash 4 Trophy. And then there's the fact Ash-Greninja exists in Ultimate as well.

But of course, special treatment from Nintendo having ownership of the IP (and before someone points it out, yes I am aware Nintendo isn't the sole owner; not the point) and the fact Pokémon is a gaming IP to start with is at play.

Only other case I think something similar could happen would ironically be Digimon, given it's a property owned by Bandai Namco and is a virtual pet IP first.

The rule has always been that characters MUST be from video games, but with Pokemon getting very liberal with anime references, both FF7 reps bringing Advent Children representation and even Tekken getting in on the action with Nina's spirit artwork being from the Blood Vengeance movie, I don't think non-video game content has ever been entirely off the table.

It's only in terms of playable character slots and likely stage and item slots that this type of content is off-limits.

 

[Will]

As far as Zelda newcomers go, my votes still go to either Tetra or Skull Kid.

Better yet, why not just add both?

What would Tetra do? She’s cool, but I seriously don’t know what to make of her in a moveset.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

What would Tetra do? She’s cool, but I seriously don’t know what to make of her in a moveset.

Treat her the same way they treated Shiek; instead of going for references since there's really nothing for her to pull from, just go with the overall theme.

Make her fight like a pirate with a cutlass sword and a pistol.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

The rule has always been that characters MUST be from video games, but with Pokemon getting very liberal with anime references, both FF7 reps bringing Advent Children representation and even Tekken getting in on the action with Nina's spirit artwork being from the Blood Vengeance movie, I don't think non-video game content has ever been entirely off the table.

It's only in terms of playable character slots and likely stage and item slots that this type of content is off-limits.

I'm not saying we should expect like Ash or Jessie and James to show up (there's a reason we got the actual protagonist of (Fire)Red and (Leaf)Green instead of Ash in the first place).

I'm just saying there's a difference between someone like Ash and someone like Goku.
And that's the source IP being a gaming one.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Here's an interesting game: cut 14 veterans from Ultimate and add 14 newcomers in their place.

Remove
1. Dark Pit
2. Dark Samus
3. Daisy
4. Richter
5. Ken
6. Lucina
7. Chrom
8. Roy
9. Dr. Mario
10. Piranha Plant
11. Ice Climbers
12. ROB
13. Duck Hunt
14. Wii Fit Trainer

Add
1. Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
2. Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
3. Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
4. Kunio/Riki [River City]
5. SV-001 Metal Slug [Metal Slug]
6. Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
7. Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
8. Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
9. Kazuma Kiryu [Like a Dragon]
10. Raiden [Metal Gear]
11. Zero [Mega Man X]
12. Alucard [Castlevania]
13. Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
14. King Hippo [Punch-Out]

But of course, special treatment from Nintendo having ownership of the IP (and before someone points it out, yes I am aware Nintendo isn't the sole owner; not the point) and the fact Pokémon is a gaming IP to start with is at play.

It's not special treatment though. Smash content has to come from video game properties. But it doesn't have to come from just the video game part of that property.

That's why we have Advent Children Cloud.

 

[Pupp135]

How likely do you think a new Zelda character is?

Like... ANY new Zelda character?

I’m unfortunately leaning towards unlikely given the weird nature of The Legend of Zelda. The main cast usually revolves around some version of Link, Zelda, and Ganon, and there is typically a character or two who also plays a major role in one or two games. If we’re going off of popularity, I think Skull Kid or Midna would probably be the two frontrunners, but I’m unsure if the developers are aware of their popularity. In terms of one-off characters, I think they’d get in because of their popularity as I assume the developers would probably just update Link to the newest version instead of adding a new fighter. While Sheik was added, it was a weird case where the two most viable Legend of Zelda newcomers for Melee were one-offs (Sheik and technically humanoid Ganondorf), and Sheik was Zelda’s first major role with agency.

For recurring characters like Impa, they do have a chance given the series’s popularity, but I could also see the developers prioritizing other characters over a recurring Legend of Zelda character in a similar vein to Toad or Eevee.

Regarding non-video game parties, I’d rather leave them out and leave it exclusive to video game characters, but I understand the appeal of them, and they’re cool to see in fangames.

 

[KingofPhantoms]

What would Tetra do? She’s cool, but I seriously don’t know what to make of her in a moveset.

Treat her the same way they treated Shiek; instead of going for references since there's really nothing for her to pull from, just go with the overall theme.

Make her fight like a pirate with a cutlass sword and a pistol.

In addition, there's also the fact that Tetra does use both of these weapons in Hyrule Warriors. Spin-off it may be, but it's some official source series material for her to pull from nonetheless.

I've also envisioned her making use of the larger bombs seen in Wind Waker, but depicted as being much smaller in Toon Link's moveset. They're often fired out of cannons throughout the game, and Tetra has a pirate ship.

Give her a cannon as one of her specials. The rest of her potential heavily ties into her character and skills as a pirate and her weapons from the games themselves, namely a speedy skilled sword fighter who also alternatively uses a flintlock pistol just as effectively. And if Joker using a gun for various ranged moves works, so would Tetra using a gun for ranged attacks as well.

You don't have to base everything directly off of her one playable appearance in a spin-off (Sheik certainly didn't even have most of her moves based off what was originally her one appearance in a mainline game at all, as Uni mentioned), but her appearance in that game is an example of what she can do, and Tetra's potential for a creative and viable pirate-based moveset is absolutely there.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It made sense in Brawl that it would be Toon Sheik, as you already had a clear moveset to take from. She only needed a new model, retooled from Sheik's. Tetra had no clear abilities and would require suddenly figuring out an all new moveset overall. This makes it much harder than just making a model in a new artstyle. Now Tetra has been given enough to actually have a comprehensive moveset made, regardless of it being a spin-off where she fights. It's at least something.

Likewise with Toon Zelda in the same way. It was clone or nothing at the time. Nowadays she has a few more defined traits(though some of it still needs more, like the Light Force. It'd be great to see what it is, since it would very much help her feel more unique~).

 

[SPEN18]

One thing to point out is that we already know they looked at the performances of series as a whole on the ballot, with Castlevania and FF. It's unclear how much this helps Zelda in the fan demand department, esp. since some of the bigger current requests like Skull Kid and Impa in particular seem to have come on much more post-ballot, but it's something that evidences split fandom possibly not being a death knell.

Anyway I do think we might be slaving a bit too much to precedence when it comes to the chances of a Zelda newcomer. On paper, things looked primed for a brand new representative from the BotW/TotK era after its breakout success (and at that, a breakout for a series that was already big). People are only skeptical because original Zelda newcomers haven't been happening, but again in a vacuum it seems to make a ton of sense. I could even see Rauru or whoever as one of the first characters revealed if they are in (could be a surprising first reveal for a lot of people, but also from a big series with a lot of recent success that most of the audience will recognize).
As for an older rep, the likelihood is more questionable but again with characters like Skull Kid, Midna, and Impa maintaining enough momentum I think there's a chance they might just peer into that well at some point. In any case all you can do is keep pushing for it, maybe catch a couple more breaks like Skull Kid did in base Ult cycle that help snowball the idea.

 

[Ivander]

Remove
1. Dark Pit
2. Dark Samus
3. Daisy
4. Richter
5. Ken
6. Lucina
7. Chrom
8. Roy
9. Dr. Mario
10. Piranha Plant
11. Ice Climbers
12. ROB
13. Duck Hunt
14. Wii Fit Trainer

Add
1. Ryu Hayabusa [Ninja Gaiden]
2. Bill Rizer/Lance Bean [Contra]
3. Arthur [Ghosts ‘n Goblins]
4. Kunio/Riki [River City]
5. SV-001 Metal Slug [Metal Slug]
6. Jill Valentine [Resident Evil]
7. Nightmare [Soulcalibur]
8. Morrigan [Darkstalkers]
9. Kazuma Kiryu [Like a Dragon]
10. Raiden [Metal Gear]
11. Zero [Mega Man X]
12. Alucard [Castlevania]
13. Captain Toad/Toadette [Treasure Tracker]
14. King Hippo [Punch-Out]

You replaced the Echo Fighters, Roy and Dr. Mario?! All you just did was switch the most fitting Echo Fighters with characters who don't fit the characters they are an Echo/Clone of. Morrigan, Jill and Nightmare all fight like Marth! Kunio and Riki are Simon Echoes! Arthur is a Peach Echo!! The Metal Slug is a Ryu Echo!!! And what's worse?! They are now subject to the "keep the moveset and feel of the characters the same for the players since there are those players who like those movesets" deal like Ganondorf! You've replaced the most fitting Echo Fighters and Clones with characters who don't fit those movesets and took away their chance for an original moveset like Ganondorf!

 

[Sucumbio]

You replaced the Echo Fighters, Roy and Dr. Mario?! All you just did was switch the most fitting Echo Fighters with characters who don't fit the characters they are an Echo/Clone of. Morrigan, Jill and Nightmare all fight like Marth! Kunio and Riki are Simon Echoes! Arthur is a Peach Echo!! The Metal Slug is a Ryu Echo!!! And what's worse?! They are now subject to the "keep the moveset and feel of the characters the same for the players since there are those players who like those movesets" deal like Ganondorf! You've replaced the most fitting Echo Fighters and Clones with characters who don't fit those movesets and took away their chance for an original moveset like Ganondorf!

Oh I took it he was erasing the 14 least to him to be lost and adding 14 unique characters...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Oh I took it he was erasing the 14 least to him to be lost and adding 14 unique characters...

The original question didn't say anything about them having to still be clones, echoes, etc. It's a pipe dream-based question, instead of going for a more realistic-style roster where everyone has about the same role given in development. Which is generally more interesting since you have to justify an odder choice at times. It's really easy to throw in unique ideas, since you don't have to worry about things like Bodyshapes(Echoes) or general animations working(Clones).

That said, there's still some potentially cool ideas you might not see otherwise without these kind of questions.

 

[Ivander]

Oh I took it he was erasing the 14 least to him to be lost and adding 14 unique characters...

The original question didn't say anything about them having to still be clones, echoes, etc. It's a pipe dream-based question, instead of going for a more realistic-style roster where everyone has about the same role given in development. Which is generally more interesting since you have to justify an odder choice at times. It's really easy to throw in unique ideas, since you don't have to worry about things like Bodyshapes(Echoes) or general animations working(Clones).

That said, there's still some potentially cool ideas you might not see otherwise without these kind of questions.

Until Equivalent Exchange forces itself into the equation. That's the problem with dreams. They are more vague on the details that hide the terrible cost behind them.

 

[Gorgonzales]

I wonder how many times the discussion has looped back to talking about cuts, really thought we would've exhausted every talking point about them by now