Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

How would you guys feel if somehow Dr. Mario was never cut in a future Smash game?

One step closer to EiH, forever!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Nah you’re just bad at seeing jokes

It was easy to tell you were joking, but the other guy...

 

[KillerCage]

Yeah. Lucario is the most recognizable Pokémon not from the first gen, who has had his own movie centered around him, used by plenty of trainers in the series (like Maylene, Cynthia, Korrina, Gladion, Volo, and even Ash), and was spotlighted in XY as your introduction to the main new mechanic of the game, Mega Evolution. I highly doubt he's going anywhere unless there's a serious cut down of the roster. I also think that Pokémon Trainer will be cut due to how complex he is to make, and I instead think that they'll just have Charizard on his own again like in Smash 4.

I'll be honest about why I cut Lucario: I constantly forget he's in Ultimate.
I know he's a very popular Pokemon but I don't think he sticks out among Ultimate's roster.
One reason I included Cynthia was to incorporate Lucario into her moveset (yes I'm aware I turned Lucario into Toad).

Spoiler: Also here's version 4.

Unless I boost the base roster size again, this might be my last take on Smash 6 unless you guys have more advice.

 

[Will]

It was easy to tell you were joking, but the other guy...

His name is literally scrimbo blimbo I think that’s on you

I'll be honest about why I cut Lucario: I constantly forget he's in Ultimate.
I know he's a very popular Pokemon but I don't think he sticks out among Ultimate's roster.
One reason I included Cynthia was to incorporate Lucario into her moveset (yes I'm aware I turned Lucario into Toad).

Spoiler: Also here's version 4.

View attachment 386428

Unless I boost the base roster size again, this might be my last take on Smash 6 unless you guys have more advice.

Why is Terry the only FGC?

 

[KillerCage]

Why is Terry the only FGC?

Technically Ryu Hayabusa also counts as a FGC via the Dead or Alive series.

 

[Gengar84]

I'll be honest about why I cut Lucario: I constantly forget he's in Ultimate.
I know he's a very popular Pokemon but I don't think he sticks out among Ultimate's roster.
One reason I included Cynthia was to incorporate Lucario into her moveset (yes I'm aware I turned Lucario into Toad).

Spoiler: Also here's version 4.

View attachment 386428

Unless I boost the base roster size again, this might be my last take on Smash 6 unless you guys have more advice.

I think the idea of a playable Pokemon Trainer is cool but I’m not sure if I’d cut Lucario for one. The problem is with Lucario’s implementation in Smash rather than the character itself. I think it would be easier to go back and fix things that aren’t quite working like they did with Bowser in Smash 4 rather than dropping it altogether.

If they wanted a trainer fighter, I’d personally go with a character that makes sense to physically get involved like a fighting type trainer or an evil team leader like Lysander that can use tools like his Dr. Octopus arms. I think Jessie and James would be perfect for this type of character since they’re always using all kinds of crazy gadgets to try to steal Pikachu. They were also evergreen characters until Horizons and were around from the start in almost every anime season.

 

[Will]

Technically Ryu Hayabusa also counts as a FGC via the Dead or Alive series.

Nice try. Is Noctis a FGC for being in Tekken 7?

You didn’t even attempt to answer my question.

 

[SPEN18]

Please just let Doc be a simple alt costume reference and move on.

Spending all those resources on needlessly differentiating him is like the epitome of worrying way too much about alienating people, and holding far too long onto preserving roster decisions from two decades ago whose original motivations are no longer relevant.

 

[KillerCage]

Nice try. Is Noctis a FGC for being in Tekken 7?

You didn’t even attempt to answer my question.

Ryu has been a playable character in all 6 of the mainline Dead or Alive games so he counts as a FGC (and not a guest character like Noctis.)
A few DOA characters even joined the cast of the Ninja Gaiden games.

 

[Gengar84]

I don’t know if it’s just me but I always try for a good mix of my own personal biases and general popularity when thinking about newcomer lists. The end goal for me is to come up with something at least somewhat realistic that I’d still be really excited for. I personally find it kind of boring to go with a pure prediction list of who I think is the most likely. At the same time, it does feel a bit silly to include some of my favorites that I can’t come up with any kind of argument why they’d ever even be considered. While I’ll concede that cuts are probably inevitable at some point, I’d rather focus on who I’d like to see brought in over who I think will be cut so I tend to leave that part out of my own rosters.

 

[SpecterFlower]

disappointed. for me the novelty of his inclusion only worked in melee. it's tiresome enough when mario kart gives us things like metal mario and pink gold peach and to me doc is no different. the mario series has so many better options than just letting a costume be a character

personally i dont like heavy filler characters.

i get the they're clones they couldn't develop real characters.

but that was back in melee where without clones it was basically smash 64 deluxe featuring marth.
nowadays though rosters are filled with unique characters anyway so i would cut the filler.

dark pit, dr mario, lucina, richter are all kinda expendable and can go, ken, dark samus should be decloned.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I'll be honest about why I cut Lucario: I constantly forget he's in Ultimate.
I know he's a very popular Pokemon but I don't think he sticks out among Ultimate's roster.
One reason I included Cynthia was to incorporate Lucario into her moveset (yes I'm aware I turned Lucario into Toad).

Spoiler: Also here's version 4.

View attachment 386428

Unless I boost the base roster size again, this might be my last take on Smash 6 unless you guys have more advice.

i agree with lucario, other than puff and incenroar the roster is only popular pokemon, and between mewtwo, and greninja (the fan voted best pokemon of all time) yeah lucario falls short.

i wanna make new roster in that style now. with the tier lists and such

 

[Will]

Ryu has been a playable character in all 6 of the mainline Dead or Alive games so he counts as a FGC (and not a guest character like Noctis.)
A few DOA characters even joined the cast of the Ninja Gaiden games.

Let me get this straight: You want Ryu Hayabusa— beloved retro, classic NES, game-innovating platform series and later 3D-innovating hack and slasher… to replace Ryu from Streets as the FGC character?

Because I see no legitimate reason to keep Terry but not keep the genesis of the genre. I can understand cutting Kaz and keeping the other two, but no Ryu makes no sense.

 

[Louie G.]

Will chime in on some of the characters that came up over the last couple pages.

- Full disclosure, I'd probably cut Lucario if push came to shove. I find him tremendously underwhelming in Smash, compared to other Pokemon and compared to other fighters who have realized his core mechanic better. But that's in the vacuum of Smash, where he is not very popular and oft forgotten. In the landscape of Pokemon, he's still one of the most popular and prominent. So it's probably safe to say he'd be a high priority returnee on that front alone, and hopefully he'll be iterated on further to be more compelling or fun but I'm certain Pokemon Company would advise him to stay.

- Ike is Fire Emblem's Lucario - except actually fun to play. Snarkiness aside, anything you can say about Lucario is just as valid here. He's the most popular protagonist in the series and still used heavily in promoting the greater series. I can't see him going anywhere but Fire Emblem is one of the trickiest nuts to crack right now. I can see a world where Ike is cut but I do not think it's the one we're going to live in and certainly would upset a lot of people. From a gameplay perspective Ike is kind of the signature "big sword guy" too, I feel like his role is a valued one and works nicely to stand out against the rest of the FE cast to boot. Byleth kinda does the "hits hard" thing now too so I could understand why it feels like one or the other here, but even if Three Houses is the more successful standalone game Byleth's individual popularity doesn't really hold a candle to Ike.

- There's genuinely no point in replacing them with Impa. What does it accomplish exactly? Impa isn't particularly being plastered on billboards to sell Zelda games, and I feel like the significance of her recurring role is overstated. At least in this context... is that enough to uproot 20 years of Smash Bros history / popularity and Sheik's own role as a major character in OOT? Let Impa join on her own merit, but this isn't an equal exchange really. I guarantee you more people want to continue to play as Sheik given the option, Impa is earnestly not that popular.

- I'm not sure if Palutena will return or not. I hope she will, because I adore Uprising and I adore her. I consider her to be one of the more on the bubble picks right now but I do believe if Palutena's Guidance returns (which I think would be likely) then she will be added at some point (could be DLC). I know that really just boils down to voice lines, but if you're continuing to provide her with a prominent role in the game like that then I unno I just expect she would still be fresh on the team's mind and they would want to reinstate her as playable. A bit arbitrary but her roots are pretty firmly planted by now.

if push comes to shove (like if they had to go for a VERY small roster) I honestly don't even think Pit would be able to make it

I think Kid Icarus has established itself as a mainstay about as well as Mother or F-Zero up to this point, with how massive of a footprint it has across nonplayable content and how prominently Pit has stood with the series staples. Up to you to decide how valuable that is but to me that means Pit is about as fundamental as you can get outside of the standard evergreen Nintendo series. This very small roster scenario would have to be the most corporate pandering milquetoast roster possible for us to see any of Ness, Falcon or Pit expelled, so maybe that's what you're proposing. I don't think that would ever happen under Sakurai.

- I like Dr. Mario well enough but I think it becomes harder to justify him returning as his own individual character when we're threatened with as many plausible cuts as we are next time. If he returns it will either be as a downgraded costume, or more likely just as a last minute addition like he was in both Melee and Smash 4. There has never really been a situation where Dr. Mario was treated as a high priority returnee so I don't expect that to start now, and that low priority role is going to hurt him even more this time than ever.

- One of my favorite characters who unfortunately I could understand being snubbed if we were seriously pressed for space or time. But I think K. Rool may have been one of the most successful new entrants in the series with how many people fell in love with him. In a roster as small as KillerCage's maybe not, but in a larger (and imo more practical) roster scenario he definitely gets to stay. I would love for him to appear in a new DK game and put any of that doubt to rest but for now we have to work with what we've got. I think his strong game presence, inarguable popularity and how clearly defined he is against the existing characters in his weight class are all great reasons for K. Rool to become a proper mainstay.

Would I prioritize him as a DLC returnee over Ike? Well... I don't know. As feedback for Cage, if you're going to add veterans to DLC I don't think you should stop with one. You could probably splice one or two more in there over a couple of the newcomers. I like Dark Matter but five Kirby characters is a lot, so I might start there. Also... just kinda weird to neglect Konami so hard. They were very cooperative in Ultimate, and they even got a new spirit recently. I have to doubt that collaboration with them would just completely stop next game. Thanks for having Arle on there though.

 

[Sucumbio]

Isn’t moveset feasibility the reason Sakurai went with Kazuya over Heihachi? I think it’s also the main reason that Chrom didn’t make the cut for Smash 4 and Villager didn’t make it for Brawl. Captain Falcon, Fox, and now Villager show that it isn’t really a requirement to make it in but I wouldn’t say it doesn’t matter at all. I think an easily translatable moveset that’s unique and interesting is helpful even if it’s not essential.

True, I guess as you said in hindsight Sakurai eventually figured it out, but yeah at the time of their initial consideration it may have been a matter of not being able to conceptualize a moveset. I'm just of the opinion there's no reason to shut down a character fanbase over moveset because we see he did figure it out eventually. Heihachi makes sense but then again if Sakurai was told, no it has to be Heihachi, I think he would have figured it out. The main issue he cited was recovery which Devil granted in an obvious way, but he does have some interesting moves that could have been translated to Smash like his Jumping Powerbomb.

 

[SpecterFlower]

well i made one

im only going to explain i think if people actually ask cause there is, a lot to explain.

to be honest who would make the most money while adding in some fan favs and returning characters was what i was going for with the dlc.
so most of the characters i want didnt make it in cause they wouldn't make money.

Spoiler: roster

the base roster cut isnt giant because i do think they will be given a bigger budget bigger team and more time to make this one.

and licensing issues aside from square enix are basically moot, smash ultimate made too much money for that.

we even saw with sephiorth, for basegame ultimate they couldn't do anything with FF, during Dlc though they could get remixes and everything.

 

[Idon]

Yeah, Lucario in Smash is a travesty of game design, especially when in all other media- the anime, Pokken, Unite, (maybe even the TCG I'm not sure), he's this all-rounded offensive powerhouse with this wicked mobility and speed.

In Smash he is sluggish and has a really clunky disconnected moveset with a gimmick that's reliant on getting beat up to improve the power/range of his moves while still remaining sluggish. It feels like such a gimmick would belong on a pokemon that's down for masochism like lycanroc midnight than the zen martial artist jackal.

... At the very least can we finally give him his damn blue spirit bone staff? It's kinda a huge part of his image by now and we're still rocking the wack ass double-team counter.

 

[Kirbeh]

Are we making wish lists or attempts at realistic predictions though? Obviously, you never know, but when I see picks like Grovyle/Celebi from Mystery Dungeon, Mike Jones and Quote/Curly I auto default to wish list. I like a lot of the newcomer choices mind you, but then the vet cuts/priorities seem a bit odd as well. Bias will always make its way into it of course, but some cuts like Ryu or Ike stand out especially.

 

[Perkilator]

SpecterFlower What Tiermaker program did you use to create your roster?

 

[SpecterFlower]

Are we making wish lists or attempts at realistic predictions though? Obviously, you never know, but when I see picks like Grovyle/Celebi from Mystery Dungeon, Mike Jones and Quote/Curly I auto default to wish list. I like a lot of the newcomer choices mind you, but then the vet cuts/priorities seem a bit odd as well. Bias will always make its way into it of course, but some cuts like Ryu or Ike stand out especially.

mine was at least an attempt at continuing the direction ultimate had.

3rd party dlc will always be more hype than first party and same with newcomers, king k rool, ridley, geno and waluigi would be the outliers
and that means more successful so I heavily favoured 3rd party, there will be licensing stuff to sort out but overall the reward would be higher.

which was at least m y thought process and why i spread the fighters out so you never get too many nintendo or returning characters in a row.
every 3rd party they can get back will be back imo.

it also makes zero sense to cut kazuya when bandai namco and some tekken devs are literally developing the game

SpecterFlower What Tiermaker program did you use to create your roster?

https://tiermaker.com/create/ssbu-tier-list-300-17194

i took the time to add the images for the newcomers. so they wont be there

there was one i originally put there, kiana kaslana but removed in favour of dainsleif as he could mark an "event end"
(i tried to make every fighters pass end with a big WTF"

 

[Gengar84]

well i made one

im only going to explain i think if people actually ask cause there is, a lot to explain.

to be honest who would make the most money while adding in some fan favs and returning characters was what i was going for with the dlc.
so most of the characters i want didnt make it in cause they wouldn't make money.

Spoiler: roster

View attachment 386433

the base roster cut isnt giant because i do think they will be given a bigger budget bigger team and more time to make this one.

and licensing issues aside from square enix are basically moot, smash ultimate made too much money for that.

we even saw with sephiorth, for basegame ultimate they couldn't do anything with FF, during Dlc though they could get remixes and everything.

I think I can get behind this one. Still pretty far off from my ideal roster but I at least get to keep my favorites and I’d be pretty hyped about Jinx as a newcomer. The other newcomers could be fun too and I’d be happy to see a lot of them but none are really at the top of my list outside Jinx. I will say that Rathalos would be a really cool playable character even though the only Monster Hunter game I’ve played is Stories 2.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Lucario is fun, y'all are just bad. LMAO



But in all seriousness, I do think the next Smash is going to have revisions. Lucario could easily get changed, cause he isn't going anywhere.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I think I can get behind this one. Still pretty far off from my ideal roster but I at least get to keep my favorites and I’d be pretty hyped about Jinx as a newcomer. The other newcomers could be fun too and I’d be happy to see a lot of them but none are really at the top of my list outside Jinx.

i tried to force my most wanted in but none of them really i cant see them happening until we start scraping the bottom of the barrel.

no Adol yet.
no 3rd FF character either, rip.

I really want more FF than, just 7.
and I couldn't put okami on there, i meant to put it on but then was like "no monster hunter would come first, ace attorney as well, dmc as well... even dragons dogma..."

i really wanted to put asterion on, but hey, theres always the next game. same with crash bandicoot.

 

[Gengar84]

i tried to force my most wanted in but none of them really i cant see them happening until we start scraping the bottom of the barrel.

no Adol yet.
no 3rd FF character either, rip.

I really want more FF than, just 7.
and I couldn't put okami on there, i meant to put it on but then was like "no monster hunter would come first, ace attorney as well, dmc as well... even dragons dogma..."

i really wanted to put asterion on, but hey, theres always the next game. same with crash bandicoot.

I can see Amaterasu getting in before Phoenix. I know the Ace Attorney games are more popular but I think Okami translates better to a platform fighter like Smash. Capcom did make Phoenix work in MvC but I just feel like Amaterasu would be much more interesting from a gameplay perspective. I don’t think character selection should be entirely based on sales. Popular characters are important too but I’d love to see more characters added primarily because they’d be unique and fun to play even if they don’t quite reach the same levels of popularity as some others.

My top Capcom pick is Zero from Mega Man X. I think he has a real shot too since he’s had both a Mii costume and Assist Trophy. His abilities also translate perfectly into a game like Smash.

 

[SpecterFlower]

I can see Amaterasu getting in before Phoenix. I know the Ace Attorney games are more popular but I think Okami translates better to a platform fighter like Smash. Capcom did make Phoenix work in MvC but I just feel like Amaterasu would be much more interesting from a gameplay perspective. I don’t think character selection should be entirely based on sales. Popular characters are important too but I’d love to see more characters added primarily because they’d be unique and fun to play even if they don’t quite reach the same levels of popularity as some others.

My top Capcom pick is Zero from Mega Man X. I think he has a real shot too since he’s had both a Mii costume and Assist Trophy. His abilities also translate perfectly into a game like Smash.

I think both factor in.

but okami also just has two games compared to the

like 10ish AA games. I just feel even now it’s more relevant, and the moveset potential isn’t so bad that he’d be a disaster to design.

and also Ace attorney is at its peak popularity rn, the trilogy sold like crazy and now you can get most of the other games with AA7 coming in a few years probably, imo it makes more sense that if they were decide by characters in a year or 2 that AA would be chosen for dlc.

 

[Arcanir]

Yeah, Lucario isn't going anywhere. On the PotY poll that is brought up for Greninja he was #2 right behind him, and he still remains one of the most prominent and promoted Pokemon in the entire franchise, especially outside of Gen 1. I don't think Sakurai or TCPi would make him low priority, he's a character that has many reasons to remain due to just how important he is to his home franchise.

That said, it is true that his moveset is seemingly unpopular and I doubt that slipped their notice. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets adjusted in the next game to make him more welcoming as a fighter.

 

[fogbadge]

well i made one

im only going to explain i think if people actually ask cause there is, a lot to explain.

to be honest who would make the most money while adding in some fan favs and returning characters was what i was going for with the dlc.
so most of the characters i want didnt make it in cause they wouldn't make money.

Spoiler: roster

View attachment 386433

the base roster cut isnt giant because i do think they will be given a bigger budget bigger team and more time to make this one.

and licensing issues aside from square enix are basically moot, smash ultimate made too much money for that.

we even saw with sephiorth, for basegame ultimate they couldn't do anything with FF, during Dlc though they could get remixes and everything.

bayo isn't first party

 

[SpecterFlower]

Yeah, Lucario isn't going anywhere. On the PotY poll that is brought up for Greninja he was #2 right behind him, and he still remains one of the most prominent and promoted Pokemon in the entire franchise, especially outside of Gen 1. I don't think Sakurai or TCPi would make him low priority, he's a character that has many reasons to remain due to just how important he is to his home franchise.

That said, it is true that his moveset is seemingly unpopular and I doubt that slipped their notice. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets adjusted in the next game to make him more welcoming as a fighter.

Really the issue with him is he is number amongst giants.

As smash goes on slots will be harder and harder to get with new iOS blows ig up and 3rd gradually getting a larger and larger portion of the roster.

you aren’t cutting pikachu, jigglypuff, new two or greninja before him.

He’s next up on the chopping block after incenroar.

 

[Will]

Lucario is fun, y'all are just bad. LMAO

But in all seriousness, I do think the next Smash is going to have revisions. Lucario could easily get changed, cause he isn't going anywhere.

Me at 100% (I’ve conditioned you to shield my safe jabs) (you are about to explode)

 

[SpecterFlower]

bayo isn't first party

I put her there anyway.

while sega owns the ip nitnendo publishes and owns the content of 2,3 and origins. She essentially is at this point.

Same Reason I put genocide there he technically isn’t but he’s a Mario character so just simplify it.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Same Reason I put genocide there

[Sans noises intensifies]

 

[Perkilator]

Alright, here's mine:

Spoiler

 

[fogbadge]

I put her there anyway.

while sega owns the ip nitnendo publishes and owns the content of 2,3 and origins. She essentially is at this point.

Same Reason I put genocide there he technically isn’t but he’s a Mario character so just simplify it.

She’s still 3rd party. Nothing changes

 

[Kirbeh]

I guess I'll give it a shot as well. My attempt at a veteran breakdown based on what I think would be considered acceptable to the widest possible audience.

61 (base roster) veterans (including Miis) or up to 67 if the low priority club makes it in.

Please note:

• Newcomers are not listed; this is strictly focused on the veterans.
• Miis are separated from the rest of the cast but are assumed to be safe/base roster.
• I tried to minimize full on cuts (though some did still occur), and many vets wound up as DLC to make space for a healthy/sizable newcomer selection.
• The number of vets as DLC is proportional to a hypothetical longer DLC cycle more common for the genre.

Spoiler

I'll provide reasoning if anyone wants it.

 

[SpecterFlower]

She’s still 3rd party. Nothing changes

Yeah she’s not owned by nitnendo.

But she’s going to be treated like a 1st party Bassicaly owns her.

they find publish and own everything that isn’t 1 Bassically.

also finally if you have problem make your own, my list I can do whatever I want regardless of your “um akshuallly”

 

[fogbadge]

Yeah she’s not owned by nitnendo.

But she’s going to be treated like a 1st party Bassicaly owns her.

they find publish and own everything that isn’t 1 Bassically.

also finally if you have problem make your own, my list I can do whatever I want regardless of your “um akshuallly”

Don’t start with the attitude just cause you made a mistake. Knowing who owns what character is important

 

[Gengar84]

I guess I'll give it a shot as well. My attempt at a veteran breakdown based on what I think would be considered acceptable to the widest possible audience.

61 (base roster) veterans (including Miis) or up to 67 if the low priority club makes it in.

Please note:

• Newcomers are not listed; this is strictly focused on the veterans.
• Miis are separated from the rest of the cast but are assumed to be safe/base roster.
• I tried to minimize full on cuts (though some did still occur), and many vets wound up as DLC to make space for a healthy/sizable newcomer selection.
• The number of vets as DLC is proportional to a hypothetical longer DLC cycle more common for the genre.

Spoiler

View attachment 386436

I'll provide reasoning if anyone wants it.

I’d be okay with that one too. I do like a lot of the cuts but there are few enough that the newcomers should more than make up for it. That does seem like a lot of veterans for DLC but as long as they’re cheaper than actual newcomers and don’t take away from how many we get, I’m more than happy to see as many back as we can get.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Are we doing roster mock-ups again? We should just have a dedicated thread for it at this point. I’ll just submit this one. I can go over some of the changes if some people are interested. It’s got one more character, and it’s less vague than before. (And also takes into account the ESRB situation).

 

[Will]

I’m gonna start throwing hands if I see Charizard segregation propaganda one more time.

 

[Kirbeh]

I’d be okay with that one too. I do like a lot of the cuts but there are few enough that the newcomers should more than make up for it. That does seem like a lot of veterans for DLC but as long as they’re cheaper than actual newcomers and don’t take away from how many we get, I’m more than happy to see as many back as we can get.

The cuts suck, but they were always going to no matter who. In my case, most of my favorite characters to play wouldn't make base and I'd be outright losing 5 of them via actual cuts.

Ideally the veterans would be cheaper (and with the absence of additional stages and music this would likely be the case.) In this hypothetical scenario, the first party vets at least would also be released outside of the proper Fighters Pass bundles.

Third party vets would still take up slots within these passes due to the nature of being, well, third party. There's more time and money spent on negotiating/acquiring and as guests it stands to reason you'd want to give them that red carpet treatment and maximize what you get out of the deal. Third parties get more profit, and then Ninty and by proxy the player get potentially more content out of it this way.

Additionally, with the longer DLC cycle you'd naturally end up with more DLC characters than Ultimate anyway. If we're looking at a 3-5 season DLC cycle (and removing the 1st party vets from the equation,) that's just 7 third party vets to account for. With 5-6 characters per pass, you're looking at those vets being just under half at minimum (3 passes of 5.) Not too bad imo, and assuming it's on the longer end then there'll be plenty of spots of available with a max of 25-30. 18-23 of those going to new characters. And again, the base roster would have also had a healthy dozen or so newcomers already.