Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Swamp Sensei]

Wolf, Ganondorf, and Sephiroth are right there.

Ganondorf would have gotten into Brawl if he skipped Melee.

Wolf was appearing regularly in Star Fox at the time.

I don't see how Sephiroth relied on luck... At all...

Dark Samus is canonically dead, made by a Western studio, had their last appearance ten years before their inclusion and was from a franchise that already got a character in Ultimate.

She's pretty lucky.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Does the Luminary count?

He was announced in July 2019, but Dragon Quest XI for Switch didn’t release until September 2019. I remember this because I bought DQ11 on release day.

What about the 3DS release?

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Can't have a discussion about bending the rules without Dragon Ball!

Kind of an offshoot from that question though, I was thinking about a weird hypothetical earlier and I want to know what the consensus is. You know how Super Mario Maker had those weird crossovers referencing manga, cartoons or musical groups? Or how Mario Kart had that Mercedes crossover?

I will not endorse any non-video game characters being playable on the roster, but would it be acceptable to get external multimedia or brand oriented content via Mii Costumes? Adding a bunch of anime may be opening the floodgates, but I imagine it would be some really strange unpredictable crossovers like Shaun the Sheep and BABYMETAL were in Mario Maker instead. I think it'd be pretty funny to be able to dress your Mii in a band t-shirt or wear some merch from a random restaurant cross-promo.

Personally I'd be fine with it, would definitely surprise me at first but I think it would be okay so long as it doesn't relate to the roster directly.

As much as I would love a Godzilla outfit for Miis since Toho basically does a lot of promotions with the franchise especially nowadays, I don't think rules should be "bent" for content outside the roster if the roster itself is not allowed.
It really makes no sense to go through the legal hoops to get, for example, a Goku costume instead of having the damn monkey join the battle.

Now, if it was like, this is what both sides agree to, like Godzilla where Toho might actually have issues with him being a fighter with what that entails (shrinking him down, having him pick up and use the weapon-based items which as a side note is probably something that will prevent him from being playable in Fortnite, etc.) but are ok with his likeness used as a costume, then it would make sense, but it would still require the floodgates being open in general for someone like Goku being eligible now.

 

[cashregister9]

Can't have a discussion about bending the rules without Dragon Ball!

Kind of an offshoot from that question though, I was thinking about a weird hypothetical earlier and I want to know what the consensus is. You know how Super Mario Maker had those weird crossovers referencing manga, cartoons or musical groups? Or how Mario Kart had that Mercedes crossover?

I will not endorse any non-video game characters being playable on the roster, but would it be acceptable to get external multimedia or brand oriented content via Mii Costumes? Adding a bunch of anime may be opening the floodgates, but I imagine it would be some really strange unpredictable crossovers like Shaun the Sheep and BABYMETAL were in Mario Maker instead. I think it'd be pretty funny to be able to dress your Mii in a band t-shirt or wear some merch from a random restaurant cross-promo.

Personally I'd be fine with it, would definitely surprise me at first but I think it would be okay so long as it doesn't relate to the roster directly.

I would be fine with something like the Squid Girl outfit from Splatoon being added

 

[Will]

What about the 3DS release?

Ah, ****. You’re totally right.

You can’t blame me for forgetting the demake.

 

[CannonStreak]

Well just because there are characters added that break fan rules doesn't mean they deliberately target breaking fan rules either. Min Min breaks a few fan rules as the ARMS rep, and Spring Man would break more, that didn't give Spring Man the edge.

What are you talking about? I don't think that is what I was aiming to talk about.

I mean, the fan rules are something that don't actually exist. Why then, should we treat them as real?

 

[Gorgonzales]

Sakurai should just release a video of him going down the list of fan rules and saying they’re wrong.

Not even giving a reason why. Just stating that they’re wrong.

I'd unironically love this so much, it'd get annoying people who say that "assists/cameos/whatever deconfirm characters" to finally shut their yap

 

[CannonStreak]

I'd unironically love this so much, it'd get annoying people who say that "assists/cameos/whatever deconfirm characters" to finally shut their yap

I do wonder if Sakurai is the kind of person who would care enough to do that, though? I ask because I don't think he is, unfortunately.

 

[Wonder Smash]

Ah, ****. You’re totally right.

You can’t blame me for forgetting the demake.

"Demake"?

 

[Shinuto]

How do you think or EXPECT the next smash to officially reveal itself? Ultimate did it via Inkling debut trailer and Smash 4 with Villager Animal Crossing into general Smash 4 itself reveal ending with Megaman.

 

[Louie G.]

As much as I would love a Godzilla outfit for Miis since Toho basically does a lot of promotions with the franchise especially nowadays, I don't think rules should be "bent" for content outside the roster if the roster itself is not allowed.
It really makes no sense to go through the legal hoops to get, for example, a Goku costume instead of having the damn monkey join the battle.

Now, if it was like, this is what both sides agree to, like Godzilla where Toho might actually have issues with him being a fighter with what that entails (shrinking him down, having him pick up and use the weapon-based items which as a side note is probably something that will prevent him from being playable in Fortnite, etc.) but are ok with his likeness used as a costume, then it would make sense, but it would still require the floodgates being open in general for someone like Goku being eligible now.

Now I'm a little bit sad this will never happen because a Godzilla costume resembling the original suit would be hilarious. You make good points though, for a lot of these it would probably be more effort than it's worth. Probably less so for cross promo with more generalized concepts like brands, restaurants or bands but certainly for intellectual property.

I would be fine with something like the Squid Girl outfit from Splatoon being added

This is definitely the kind of thing I had in mind, these were adorable and I wonder what a similar left field crossover may look like if it was allowed into Smash. Let it be known I'm not especially counting on it, but I wouldn't consider it an affront to the series. Even a smidge of anime content in Smash under any capacity would probably entail a whole lot of roster discussion I'd rather not have though, LOL.

 

[Gorgonzales]

How do you think or EXPECT the next smash to officially reveal itself? Ultimate did it via Inkling debut trailer and Smash 4 with Villager Animal Crossing into general Smash 4 itself reveal ending with Megaman.

I think it'll be a surprise announcement for sure. I'm not certain they'll want to reveal it with another fakeout like Inkling but I don't suppose it's completely out of the question.

 

[7NATOR]

How do you think or EXPECT the next smash to officially reveal itself? Ultimate did it via Inkling debut trailer and Smash 4 with Villager Animal Crossing into general Smash 4 itself reveal ending with Megaman.

Honestly, If they have Master Chief in the game, they should reveal Smash by Masking it as some type of Halo on (Switch 2) trailer, but have the Nintendo, and perhaps other 3rd party characters coming in. That would be like a Fever dream

 

[Noipoi]

How do you think or EXPECT the next smash to officially reveal itself? Ultimate did it via Inkling debut trailer and Smash 4 with Villager Animal Crossing into general Smash 4 itself reveal ending with Megaman.

During the Switch 2 presentation they announce they’re working on the next Smash, just to drum up hype.

They’ll announce it before telling Sakurai.

Again.

 

[superprincess]

I'd unironically love this so much, it'd get annoying people who say that "assists/cameos/whatever deconfirm characters" to finally shut their yap

Not to be that person but... assists do deconfirm. So far, at least. Spirits were always more of a grey area for some people, but if the Mewtwo and Lucas trophies in SSB4 were anything to go by, they never really deconfirmed.

Assists are different, because the character appears in-game. If there are plans to include a fighter as playable, it'd make sense to remove every other reference to them in the game, right? If that wasn't the case, they wouldn't have gotten rid of the Daisy and Dark Samus recolors or the Isabelle AT. So by extension, if a fighter appears in those roles, it's pretty logical to assume they won't also make a playable appearance.

I know someone will bring up the Toon Link stage cameo now, but that's a different incarnation with a different outfit, and he also gets switched out when Toon Link the fighter is present. Alfonzo: Leave it to me!

The only exception is Robin using the Smash Ball to summon Chrom in order to beat up echo fighter Chrom. But Chrom's a special case.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Assists are different, because the character appears in-game. If there are plans to include a fighter as playable, it'd make sense to remove every other reference to them in the game, right?

Ultimate already disables a lot of assists during battles for a lot of reasons: Not wanting you to be screwed over by Palkia and Skull Kid simultaneously, not wanting two Moons on Great Bay, Nikki's drawings being hard to see on dark backgrounds, not wanting two assists to override the background, not wanting Alucard to be reflected in the Wii Fit mirror.

 

[superprincess]

Ultimate already disables a lot of assists during battles for a lot of reasons: Not wanting you to be screwed over by Palkia and Skull Kid simultaneously, not wanting two Moons on Great Bay, Nikki's drawings being hard to see on dark backgrounds, not wanting two assists to override the background, not wanting Alucard to be reflected in the Wii Fit mirror.

Yeah there's a lot of special little situations like that, but none of them accommodate fighters also being present.

If Waluigi for example was planned from the get go, his AT would be removed. Period. DLC may have taken a different approach, but look at Spring Man.

 

[Guynamednelson]

but none of them accommodate fighters also being present.

Gray Fox is programmed to say different things if Snake is present, I'm sure they could do something similar with a playable DLC character if they wanted to.

look at Spring Man.

The character whose reasons for not being chosen are confirmed to be everything but his assist?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

This is why an AT having playable status as DLC would've been neat. That said, yeah, they'd probably disable the AT(depending things like the design, how the AT acts, etc.) Though I do admit it's silly to disable Conductor Link when another Link is there outside of Toon Link at least(since Conductor Link is treated as a Toon Link design).

Albeit, Fighter's Pass 1 was figured out while the base game was finishing up, so it makes sense it wouldn't go for an AT at all. A Spirit wouldn't matter, as that can be given a new Spirit or even the core Spirit could be moved to DLC in return. That kind of thing.

 

[Louie G.]

I think with Assist Trophies, it's just safe to say if a character was deliberately added into an active role like an AT or a Boss on the base roster that there is probably no further plan for them beyond that. And this would probably extend out to the first wave of DLC as well, which I'm just gonna speculate was determined somewhere alongside the base game's development cycle.

Past that is where I feel like this can be contested a little harder. Personally I choose not to buy into it very much, but they could certainly find a workaround if they really wanted to. Chrom is a special case, but he is in fact a case - if his presence was that much of a distraction, they might have skipped out on him altogether. So I think there's some wiggle room for that decision to be walked back on later, but only once enough time has passed to reassess... like a Fighter Pass 2 minimally. Unless we're talking an echo like Chrom, but even so I think an AT would outright be removed if they were making the jump over to being playable. Dark Samus says hi. Robin's Final Smash would have just been kinda weird without Chrom and it was probably too late to reverse.

DLC may have taken a different approach, but look at Spring Man.

Honestly, say what you will about Min Min, but I feel like this was a blessing in disguise for ARMS if that was truly the reason he was ignored. I have nothing against Spring Man but it's so much nicer to have one of their more dynamic character designs showcased over the poster boy... even if his toothpaste hair is funny, you just aren't getting the charm and creativity of a girl with ramen arms, dragon hands and a little ramen bowl hat. Those are the kind of endearing supporting characters that Smash always ends up missing out on otherwise.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Chrom is a special case, but he is in fact a case - if his presence was that much of a distraction, they might have skipped out on him altogether. So I think there's some wiggle room for that decision to be walked back on later, but only once enough time has passed to reassess... like a Fighter Pass 2 minimally. Unless we're talking an echo like Chrom, but even so I think an AT would outright be removed if they were making the jump over to being playable. Dark Samus says hi. Robin's Final Smash would have just been kinda weird without Chrom and it was probably too late to reverse.

Well it is easier to delete an assist than change a Final Smash. Granted SSBU did change a lot of FS's already, but my guess is Robin's fell into the category of old FS's they thought were okay with the new gameplay style.

 

[Perkilator]

Re: AT's
Call me a negative Nancy but I'm still not a fan of the idea of promoting AT's to playable as DLC in the same game as being an AT in the first place. Promoting an AT to playable in the game after, however, is totally fine.

 

[Chuderz]

I'd Definitely say Adult Goku, Since Dragon Ball Z Specifically is the Most Iconic part of the Brand, as well as the fact that he can use all the Transformations more than Kid Goku can, even taking into Account GT.

Now I would want to say that since you Got both Akira Toriyama and Bandai Namco on Board with Smash already (Akira with Dragon Quest, and Bandai Namco having the Game rights to the series) that Goku can be in prime position to break the "Non Video Game Rule" but it might seem like it's not the case

Dragon Ball shakes up: Editor breaks with Shueisha and takes over rights to the saga

Dragon Ball editor Akio Iyoku resigns and says he will keep the license for his new company Capsule Corporation Tokyo.

en.as.com

Who owns DragonBall? Toriyama? Toei? Squidward? • Kanzenshuu

www.kanzenshuu.com

The Mess of "Who owns Dragon Ball?" • Kanzenshuu

www.kanzenshuu.com

https://comicbook.com/anime/news/dragon-ball-super-anime-rights-toei-shueisha/

Shueisha seems to be the Ultimate rights holder of Dragon Ball, but It seems currently there were some Negotiations about the rights since the Chief editor quit from Shueisha and seems to have started his own Capsule Cooperation.

All Toriyama can do is sit on the Sidelines for now, so as Much as I want it to happen, I don't think Goku is in a good position to break this Limit. I actually think the character right now most likely to do that is Mickey Mouse

Yes my guess would be Adult Goku has the best shot by being the safer choice but I think relatively the "safeness" between Kid Goku and Adult Goku isn't too vast because it's still Goku at the end of the day with his super recognizable attitude and hair. I mostly would like my concept of Kid Goku with GT characteristics because it would kind of be a best of all worlds sort of concept for him. As an adult he loses his tail and his powerpole and I'd like to incorporate that into his moveset. Then there's also the fact that the Dragon Ball anime Dragon Ball Daima is going to use his kid form (unfortunately still without his tail) so at least Kid Goku has that going for him now and Toriyama did make a specific mention of doing this because he wanted Goku to use his powerpole again. Sakurai also seems to like to go for the "classic" approach to characters in Smash as we see with the likes of Sora, Megaman and Pacman and well Goku's manga debuted with him as a child and to add to that his first ever video game exclusively has you play as him as a child. I personally also think the cuteness factor fits in better with Smash but there's also plenty of serious adult characters in the game already that he'd fit right in with as well.

I remember seeing that a while ago and I'd love a legal expert to weigh in on that whole situation. I don't for the life of me understand how presumably an employee, even a very important employee within a company, can just take the rights of Dragon Ball with them when they leave. Even him naming his new company directly after the brand is insane and obviously demonstrates a position of strength so I guess he does have these rights. The only way I can rationalize it is if somehow he's the direct representative of Toriyama's rights to the series, something that Toriyama would have had to legally sign off on, and that's more or less what he's doing. He's simply taking Akira Toriyama's rights with him to this new company.

 

[BuckleyTim]

I fully believe that if Spring Man skipped out on base game Ultimate we still would've gotten Min Min as the DLC pick for the reasons that always brought up when she's talked about. I like Spring Man, but he's a nothing character that blatantly nobody cares about, especially if popularity polls are brought into discussion.

That said, if Waluigi's reaction in 2018 wasn't enough to move the needle and get him in fp2, I can't see a mid-game AT promotion ever happening then. Maybe if Smash adopts a more live-service season-based approach like SF/Tekken, but nah. It's unfortunate though now that the AT pool is including characters I really want like Bomberman, Alucard, you name it...

 

[HyperSomari64]

" why can't Smash have Rollback? "
Then there will be things like this:

and not to mention the

Look, all I'm saying is that if we'd gotten Maximo in Brawl like we should have this whole debate could have been settled right then and there:

He's a cartoon swordsman. His addition would confuse Smash fans.

 

[Ivander]

He's a cartoon swordsman. His addition would confuse Smash fans.

That's not a cartoon swordsman...

Spoiler: This is a Cartoon Swordsman.

Now he would be the true definition of a video game character no one would see coming.

 

[Guynamednelson]

That said, if Waluigi's reaction in 2018 wasn't enough to move the needle and get him in fp2

I think some of the work on FP2 had already started by then, actually. Minecraft World's backgrounds are based on how Minecraft was generating worlds as of the Update Aquatic, which is from 2018.

 

[Sucumbio]

It's not really the same thing. The 3DS game was how he got in. Persona 5 was why.

Wait, I can't. Bro stop lol this is dumb. You and I both know a down low Japan only handheld game is not how Joker "got in" to Ultimate. The "Appearance" was a COINCIDENCE not the other way around! D:

 

[Shinuto]

Anyone else wish Pyra and Mythra used the Blade Shields? Like blades in XC2 literally make shield in lore and they just DONT have em in Smash is a huge missed opportunity, for a Yoshi like shield or something.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Frankly debates on whether or not AT promos or more western third parties can happen are why I've become more interested in PMEX Remix anyway. No need to worry if the next character could possibly be Lara Croft or Saki Amamiya when it's confirmed we'll get both anyway.

Well that and I have a new neighbor who's interested in playing Melee casually albeit without items. Might as well play something like Melee but with a much bigger roster...that doesn't play nice with items. Not every character that's been added has item animations or a proper Final Smash, for one thing.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You should not focus on the "It has not happened yet" and, with that, you should not wait for something to actually happen that either proves or disproves your claims, anyway.

Except it's impossible to disprove a negative.

No matter how much a thing doesn't happen, someone can always just say "Hasn't happened YET." Regardless of how unlikely it becomes that it's ever going to happen.

Does the Luminary count?

No, because he's still part of Dragon Quest, which is all over Nintendo's systems.

 

[SPEN18]

I could say a lot more but my basic stance is that being an AT in base does not rule you out for DLC. There's enough uncertainty surrounding when the DLC is finalized relative to the ATs that we can't make a final statement of disconfirmation. Even knowing some DLC characters were in ongoing negotiations earlier doesn't mean the whole pack was finalized at that point (especially the first party slots). Same-game AT promos just haven't happened yet; I think the biggest reason why is simply that the majority of characters who end up as ATs are usually not the types that end up taking DLC spots (i.e. main characters from large third party franchises and Nintendo games too recent to make base, or veterans for that matter).

 

[DarthEnderX]

Kind of an offshoot from that question though, I was thinking about a weird hypothetical earlier and I want to know what the consensus is. You know how Super Mario Maker had those weird crossovers referencing manga, cartoons or musical groups? Or how Mario Kart had that Mercedes crossover?

The ONLY 4th-party content allowed in Smash, for ANY reason...is a Captain N Mii Gunner costume.

 

[SPEN18]

Anyway, as for when the game could be revealed. It likely started or is starting development in 2023 or 2024 for, say, a 2026 or so release. With the new system likely 2025 as of the current reporting. If this timeline is approximately correct, perhaps it would make sense to reveal the game in one of the first Directs that's focusing primarily on Switch 2 games. In that period where we know what the launch games are, but not much after that, they can tell us Smash is coming; then, Smash contributes to the hype for the new system without stealing thunder from the actual launch game announcements, which are likely to be Direct-closer material themselves (at least you'd hope). From there, the marketing for Smash happens during the first year or so that the new system is on the market. So at this current moment at least, I guess my wild guess is like a summer 2025 reveal for a 2026 release.

 

[Will]

The ONLY 4th-party content allowed in Smash, for ANY reason...is a Captain N Mii Gunner costume.

What about Nester?

 

[JOJONumber691]

Ganondorf would have gotten into Brawl if he skipped Melee.

Wolf was appearing regularly in Star Fox at the time.

I don't see how Sephiroth relied on luck... At all...

Dark Samus is canonically dead, made by a Western studio, had their last appearance ten years before their inclusion and was from a franchise that already got a character in Ultimate.

She's pretty lucky.

Ganondorf is also extremely inconsistent in terms of abilities, chances are he might’ve had to wait until 3DS and Wii U at the earliest. Wolf was quite literally unfinished in Brawl, and Sephiroth was likely only prioritized because Cloud was dealt a bad hand. As for Dark Samus, I feel like Dark Samus having the Assist Trophy at all helped their priority significantly given how Sakurai views them. But yeah fourth place works.

 

[DarthEnderX]

What about Nester?

NO!!

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Ganondorf is also extremely inconsistent in terms of abilities, chances are he might’ve had to wait until 3DS and Wii U at the earliest. Wolf was quite literally unfinished in Brawl, and Sephiroth was likely only prioritized because Cloud was dealt a bad hand. As for Dark Samus, I feel like Dark Samus having the Assist Trophy at all helped their priority significantly given how Sakurai views them. But yeah fourth place works.

Dark Samus would have never gotten in if Echoes were not a thing. Full stop. To deny otherwise is asinine.

Ganondorf would have been added eventually, Wolf being "unfinished" doesn't mean anything when the same applies to Mr. Game & Watch in Melee, and Sephiroth still could have gotten in later regardless based on his merits. The only thing Sephiroth was "lucky" about was that he was the first of his kind (secondary non-Echo guest).

 

[Wonder Smash]

Wait, I can't. Bro stop lol this is dumb. You and I both know a down low Japan only handheld game is not how Joker "got in" to Ultimate. The "Appearance" was a COINCIDENCE not the other way around! D:

Nintendo knows what's on their consoles. Now way that just happened to be a coincidence.

 

[JOJONumber691]

The ONLY 4th-party content allowed in Smash, for ANY reason...is a Captain N Mii Gunner costume.

Captain N wasn’t even good. Give me Team Rocket.