Official Next Smash - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

People believed she'd be an Echo because they didn't understand how they worked. She was a regular or semi-clone at best due to having a different bodyshape and all(personality was also at play, but it was the first part that forced the label factor outright). Opossum was I think the first one to bring this up?

It was also noticeable how jank the Villager mod looked when applying Isabelle due to said bodyshapes being overall different.

That said, Tom Nook isn't a different shape from Isabelle(though I doubt he'd be an Echo of her anyway, since the stuff she does doesn't really seem coded well for him). I could see him use her as a base, but play closer to Villager and some of his/her tools, though.

 

[dream1ng]

How the ** are you still on this ** when everyone has already told you that you are wrong?

I think he's wrong about the violence being an impediment but he's not wrong that there is pretty stiff MS competition and, most adversely, he is correct that Doom is very niche in Japan.

 

[fogbadge]

Poor vaati

 

[Dinoman96]

Seriously, Dark Samus still wows me that she's playable, even if she's an echo.


What did she really have going for? She was the baddie of two Metroid games, technically 3 if you count Metroid Prime 1. She's almost like the Vaati of the Metroid series, and you don't want to be the Vaati of anything.

The Metroid series was in a pretty bad state when Sakurai was choosing the roster for Ultimate, it's a miracle we got Ridley. And while Dark Samus did have fair bit of popularity, Ridley was heads and shoulders above her, to the point that some of Dark Samus's popularity was born from being seen as an alternative since Ridley was too big. Not all of it, obviously, but certainly some of it.

So when Ridley got in, that should've been the end of it. Except people started to notice a few things. Firstly and most importantly, Samus had lost her Dark Samus alt for no reason. I think that alone was enough to convince people she was coming. To reaffirm this though, she survived the assist trophy slaughter at E3, and Ridley had an unusual victory theme, a twisted dark version of Samus's victory theme rather than something using his own iconic theme. Dark Samus went from consolation prize to most expected character in the game.


Dark Samus. A character who was killed off a decade prior. She's honestly a beacon of hope for some of who are fans of characters who are generally viewed as lesser.

Yeah she was really lucky that they decided to cut corners and hacksaw her into an echo fighter with at least some neat unique animations. It's funny how some people complain about her assist trophy moveset being more unique but uh, it was clearly the only way they were going to make her playable in this day and age.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Way back when ChronoBound said that Dark Samus was possibly the luckiest character on the roster.

I think he's right. She should have been a no hoper.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Anyways, thoughts on my list of potential newcomers (and two reworks) in the next game?

checks for Hayabusa

does not find Hayabusa

It's crap.

An argument could be made "Erdrick" and Banjo.

No way was Erdrick ever a lock. He was one of my MW, so I'd have known if he was.

Nobody took him seriously until 'yuusha' was found in Ultimate's code.

 

[Shinuto]

Here's my first attempt at a hypothetical Smash 6 Roster, I admit its got issues with there being too many newcomers and too conservative on cuts but I just can't really think of others to cut, I need some outside input on where to go with this. Yellow characters are new Echoes. Noah and Mio are like Ice Climbers mixed with Pyra and Mythra in that they both fight together but you can change the way they function by swapping the lead

 

[NintenRob]

Way back when ChronoBound said that Dark Samus was possibly the luckiest character on the roster.

I think he's right. She should have been a no hoper.

Honestly yeah, she probably is (though Plant and Banjo have a solid case)


Despite everything I've said though, I really hope Dark Samus sticks around. I don't care she is an echo, she's so cool. Her model and animations do a lot heavy lifting but they do it so well. She's the most alien feeling character on the roster and I love her for it.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Here's my first attempt at a hypothetical Smash 6 Roster, I admit its got issues with there being too many newcomers and too conservative on cuts but I just can't really think of others to cut, I need some outside input on where to go with this. Yellow characters are new Echoes. Noah and Mio are like Ice Climbers mixed with Pyra and Mythra in that they both fight together but you can change the way they function by swapping the leadView attachment 385667

You only cut Doc, Toon Link, Wolf, Bowser Jr., Corrin and Kazuya?

I understand most of these but.. with all the characters you kept, why were Bowser Jr. and Kazuya the ones who were deemed low priority?

Like, I can't wrap my head around cutting Jr. And Kazuya but keeping Pichu.

EDIT: wait, you cut Kazuya but added KOS-MOS?!?

 

[Sucumbio]

If there's to be a FPS rep (that isn't Metroid Prime) and it's to be Microsoft, I think it'll be Master Chief. But this is mostly hopium with a smidge of x files level brain drainage.

 

[Shinuto]

You only cut Doc, Toon Link, Wolf, Bowser Jr., Corrin and Kazuya?

I understand most of these but.. with all the characters you kept, why were Bowser Jr. and Kazuya the ones who were deemed low priority?

Like, I can't wrap my head around cutting Jr. And Kazuya but keeping Pichu.

EDIT: wait, you cut Kazuya but added KOS-MOS?!?

Kazuya just to me seemed the least hype of all the third parties added in Ultimate, KOS-MOS is a bias and I haven't looked into them (since all the videos bring up Xenoblade spoilers but apparently theres hints/rumors of remakes of her trilogy) and Bowser Jr Id view as "he needs to bring the koopalings with him" so he's low prioirty due to added work needed to keep him. Pichu is an easy semi clone based on Pikachu who has outgrown the joke character status it started as. BUT I could also see axing Pichu as well.

 

[BritishGuy54]

Kazuya just to me seemed the least hype of all the third parties added in Ultimate, KOS-MOS is a bias and Bowser Jr Id view as "he needs to bring the koopalings with him" so he's low prioirty due to added work needed to keep him. Pichu is an easy semi clone based on Pikachu who has outgrown the joke character status it started as.

I don’t see why Kazuya got cut, especially when he’s owned by Bandai Namco, the studio who also own Pac-Man and develop Smash. And lack of hype is the reason? That’s pretty weak for a reason.

KOS-MOS is a neat DLC pick I could see happening if we get a Xenosaga remaster, but I think anything new from Xenoblade trumps her chances.

Bowser Jr. doesn’t need the Koopalings. I’d be okay leaving them out next time and just having Jr. Other than that, he still has his place here.

Also, yes, the cuts are very conservative, but EiH minus a few plus tons of more characters is unrealistic. Perhaps some downscaling and refinement to the roster is needed.

 

[Shinuto]

I don’t see why Kazuya got cut, especially when he’s owned by Bandai Namco, the studio who also own Pac-Man and develop Smash. And lack of hype is the reason? That’s pretty weak for a reason.

KOS-MOS is a neat DLC pick I could see happening if we get a Xenosaga remaster, but I think anything new from Xenoblade trumps her chances.

Bowser Jr. doesn’t need the Koopalings. I’d be okay leaving them out next time and just having Jr. Other than that, he still has his place here.

I DID want to add Malos but uhhh He's NOT IN the smash maker and I didnt feel like making an icon at the time of making it.

I agree with Jr but you see why cuts are so damn hard? Every character in the roster has SOMETHING to justify them being there.

 

[Ivander]

Kazuya just to me seemed the least hype of all the third parties added in Ultimate

How? Especially when you have Terry who was arguably viewed as even more of a "Who?" then DQ's Hero?

 

[7NATOR]

Here's my first attempt at a hypothetical Smash 6 Roster, I admit its got issues with there being too many newcomers and too conservative on cuts but I just can't really think of others to cut, I need some outside input on where to go with this. Yellow characters are new Echoes. Noah and Mio are like Ice Climbers mixed with Pyra and Mythra in that they both fight together but you can change the way they function by swapping the leadView attachment 385667

Well good for you, I do like Alot of Newcomers, and there are some interesting choices here, Not all of them I would agree with if there were a Regular amount of Newcomers, but with this much, it's fire. even if Shadow is not in here Unfortunately

I think maybe it's because you're being bias and just put in the characters you want, Which I can respect. But if you do want to make it look more realistic, at least make Some of them DLC because all of these Newcomers in Base game, in addition to the lack of cuts (even with Cuts, It's harder to make new stuff then bring back old stuff, so I don't know if there would be that many anyway)

with that being said, Cutting Kazuya is wack

Kazuya just to me seemed the least hype of all the third parties added in Ultimate, KOS-MOS is a bias and I haven't looked into them (since all the videos bring up Xenoblade spoilers but apparently theres hints/rumors of remakes of her trilogy) and Bowser Jr Id view as "he needs to bring the koopalings with him" so he's low prioirty due to added work needed to keep him. Pichu is an easy semi clone based on Pikachu who has outgrown the joke character status it started as.

Nah, Kazuya might break the game somewhat with his Touch of Death, but he definitly won people over and Tekken has sold more Copies than Street Fighter, and they just came out Tekken 8. Put him back in there.

I also will say that I personally disagree with your Cuts. No Wolf? Pichu and Young Link are in here but no Wolf? and that's no shade to them, it's just that I think Wolf should be a Priority

I also personally don't like Doc not being here, but I more understand that one

I will say if you do want to make a Roster with more Cuts, just go ahead and be bias with your cuts. I disagree with you cutting Kazuya and Wolf, but you going to get many Disagreements with whoever you cut anyway. So keep on that train and just make your Roster interesting. You're on the right track I think

 

[Shinuto]

How? Especially when you have Terry who was arguably viewed as even more of a "Who?" then DQ's Hero?

Terry was not a Who? in terms of Latin American Smash fans. He was a HUGE deal over there.

 

[NintenRob]

If I had to cut 10 characters and was being extremely bias. I would cut Kazuya. I don't like how he plays that much and I don't like all the command inputs. Feels like I'm just button mashing whenever I play him.


But realistically, I don't see much reason for why he would be cut, he seems among the safer additions to the roster and Sakurai has wanted someone from Tekken for a while.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Terry was not a Who? in terms of Latin American Smash fans. He was a HUGE deal over there.

Likewise, the Japanese popped off over Hero since Dragon Quest is a huge deal there to the point there's a legit law not to release DQ's on certain days of the week since people would ditch school/work for it.

 

[Shinuto]

Well good for you, I do like Alot of Newcomers, and there are some interesting choices here, Not all of them I would agree with if there were a Regular amount of Newcomers, but with this much, it's fire. even if Shadow is not in here Unfortunately

I think maybe it's because you're being bias and just put in the characters you want, Which I can respect. But if you do want to make it look more realistic, at least make Some of them DLC because all of these Newcomers in Base game, in addition to the lack of cuts (even with Cuts, It's harder to make new stuff then bring back old stuff, so I don't know if there would be that many anyway)

with that being said, Cutting Kazuya is wack



Nah, Kazuya might break the game somewhat with his Touch of Death, but he definitly won people over and Tekken has sold more Copies than Street Fighter, and they just came out Tekken 8. Put him back in there.

I also will say that I personally disagree with your Cuts. No Wolf? Pichu and Young Link are in here but no Wolf? and that's no shade to them, it's just that I think Wolf should be a Priority

I also personally don't like Doc not being here, but I more understand that one

I will say if you do want to make a Roster with more Cuts, just go ahead and be bias with your cuts. I disagree with you cutting Kazuya and Wolf, but you going to get many Disagreements with whoever you cut anyway. So keep on that train and just make your Roster interesting. You're on the right track I think

Oh no the roster wasn't meant to imply base roster, I was doing that under the impression of a FINAL roster, after all dlc.

who would you cut instead of Kazuya and any others to get the chopping block? I guess you're right Wolf can stay and cut Pichu and YLink.

PERSONALLY I don't want ANY cuts that's why I have a very hard time doing them at all since I cant really come to a good stance ON what aspects of a character MAKE them cuttable. But I feel like not having cuts limits the newcomer potential and thus my hypothetical would have a completely other issue of too many characters overall, which I think it still does to an extent already.

 

[Gengar84]

I personally don’t want to see any cuts but if I was forced to in order to get any newcomers, these are the characters I’d be most okay losing. I tried not to limit it to only clones because that would be too easy.



There are a ton of existing characters I’m personally indifferent to like Miis, Wii Fit Trainer, ROB, Ice Climbers, Game & Watch, Villager, and Olimar but it didn’t really make sense to cut them just based on my personal biases so they stay.

As for newcomers, I’ll try to make a good mix of popular requests and my own personal wants:

Base game:

Noah/Mio
Ceruledge
Waluigi
Octoling
Officer Howard
Dixie Kong
Raven Beak
Zero
Ryu Hyabusa
Fulgore

DLC Pack 1:

Knuckles
Rauru
Jinx
Bill Rizer/Lance Bean
Alphen/Shionne
Crono

DLC Pack 2:

Sub-Zero
Lu Bu
Lara Croft
Isaac
Sol Badguy
Master Chief

Probably still not the most realistic of lists and I left out several of my personal favorites like the Battletoads and Magus who I feel are less likely but I’d still be pretty happy with something like this.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea of Kazuya being the "least" hype of the Fighters Pass DLC when there's the elephant in the room at being negatively reacted towards:

 

[Ivander]

Terry was not a Who? in terms of Latin American Smash fans. He was a HUGE deal over there.

Much like DQ's Hero in Japan. That wasn't my point. My point was that Kazuya, despite having Lloyd, Dragonborn, Dante and Shantae announced as Mii Costumes, never got overshadowed by any or all of them combined compared to all the memes and whatnot that happened when both Terry and a Mii Costume of Sans were announced on the same day.

 

[7NATOR]

Oh ho the roster wasnt meant tom imply base roster, I was doing that under the impression of a FINAL roster, after all dlc.

who would you cut instead of Kazuya and any others to get the chopping block? I guess youre right Wolf cna stay and cut Pichu and YLink.

PERSONALLY I dont want ANY cuts thats why I have a very hard time doing them at all since I cant really come to a good stance ON what aspects of a character MAKE them cutable. But I feel like not having cuts limits the newcomer potential and thus my hypothetical would have a completely other issue of too many characters overall, which I think it still does to an extent already.

It's hard for me to do Cuts as well. I'm going to make a Roster with some Cuts, But it's hard to find what the most interesting way to go about it is

I would say to do the MVC3 Approach. in the transition from MVC2 to MVC3, MVC3 cut alot of characters (Going from 56 to 36). Some of these were popular characters from Popular franchises like X-Men and Street Fighter. No Gambit no Psylocke, No Cyclops as example. No Ken, No M.Bision, no Sakura, etc. MVC3 didn't even have Mega Man (nor did UMVC3 for that matter)

But I think the main thing is just to make sure your Newcomers hit hard, and you're choosing them because they would make Fun and Interesting characters in the game, because at the end of the day, this is a Fighting game after all.

As for Veterans, Just make sure your Reasoning does make some sense and you could probably get away with it

As an example, from Donkey Kong, I actually would Keep K.Rool over Diddy Kong. More people might say Diddy has more reason to be in the game, but In Smash I think Much more people play K.Rool and find him fun, and I definitly fight more K.rools, so I'm keeping K.Rool

Try to avoid cutting New Franchises in general. I would Downgrade the Roster of Pokemon the cut the Entirety of Pikmin, even If I myself not too much of a Fan of Olimar and Pokemon is the Biggest media franchise in the world.

For the Franchises you do Downgrade, try to add something new to them they wouldn't get in previous games. For Mario, if you cut Rosalina and Bowser Jr., but put in Geno, it at least be something interesting to the table. Yes Geno is more "Niche" but if he's cool in the game you can work with it

 

[Shinuto]

Much like DQ's Hero in Japan. That wasn't my point. My point was that Kazuya, despite having Lloyd, Dragonborn, Dante and Shantae announced as Mii Costumes, never got overshadowed by any or all of them combined compared to all the memes and whatnot that happened when both Terry and a Mii Costume of Sans were announced on the same day.

Thats just cause Sans has an unhinged fandom attached to his series, Not to crap on Undertale or Sans but I definitely saw some overblown reactions for Sans.

It's hard for me to do Cuts as well. I'm going to make a Roster with some Cuts, But it's hard to find what the most interesting way to go about it is

I would say to do the MVC3 Approach. in the transition from MVC2 to MVC3, MVC3 cut alot of characters (Going from 56 to 36). Some of these were popular characters from Popular franchises like X-Men and Street Fighter. No Gambit no Psylocke, No Cyclops as example. No Ken, No M.Bision, no Sakura, etc. MVC3 didn't even have Mega Man (nor did UMVC3 for that matter)

But I think the main thing is just to make sure your Newcomers hit hard, and you're choosing them because they would make Fun and Interesting characters in the game, because at the end of the day, this is a Fighting game after all.

As for Veterans, Just make sure your Reasoning does make some sense and you could probably get away with it

As an example, from Donkey Kong, I actually would Keep K.Rool over Diddy Kong. More people might say Diddy has more reason to be in the game, but In Smash I think Much more people play K.Rool and find him fun, and I definitly fight more K.rools, so I'm keeping K.Rool

Try to avoid cutting New Franchises in general. I would Downgrade the Roster of Pokemon the cut the Entirety of Pikmin, even If I myself not too much of a Fan of Olimar and Pokemon is the Biggest media franchise in the world.

For the Franchises you do Downgrade, try to add something new to them they wouldn't get in previous games. For Mario, if you cut Rosalina and Bowser Jr., but put in Geno, it at least be something interesting to the table. Yes Geno is more "Niche" but if he's cool in the game you can work with it

Yeah but a ton of people HATED what MVC3 and UMvC did in terms of the cuts and newcomers, no Megaman ****ed with People
a revision of my hypothetical would take what you said, Id cut Pichu Young Link, maybe Toon Link, either Incineroar or Greninja, Diddy, Dr Mario, Corrin, maybe Roy.

 

[NintenRob]

For the Franchises you do Downgrade, try to add something new to them they wouldn't get in previous games. For Mario, if you cut Rosalina and Bowser Jr., but put in Geno, it at least be something interesting to the table. Yes Geno is more "Niche" but if he's cool in the game you can work with it

This would honestly have the opposite affect for me, for the rest of the games lifespan, I would be asking "How could you cut Rosalina and then add someone as niche as Geno"

 

[Ivander]

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea of Kazuya being the "least" hype of the Fighters Pass DLC when there's the elephant in the room at being negatively reacted towards:

Obvious and sadly. Cause let's be honest, why did Capcom think advertising DMC around the day of the Sakurai Presents was a good idea? Between that and probably being a bit too early of a reveal instead of being in FP2, Byleth pretty much had all the cards stacked against them.

 

[CannonStreak]

This would honestly have the opposite affect for me, for the rest of the games lifespan, I would be asking "How could you cut Rosalina and then add someone as niche as Geno"

If you asked my, I’d say I’d want both Rosalina and Geno to be in the same Smash Bros. game. Don’t ask me why, though.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Kazuya just to me seemed the least hype of all the third parties added in Ultimate, KOS-MOS is a bias and I haven't looked into them (since all the videos bring up Xenoblade spoilers but apparently theres hints/rumors of remakes of her trilogy) and Bowser Jr Id view as "he needs to bring the koopalings with him" so he's low prioirty due to added work needed to keep him. Pichu is an easy semi clone based on Pikachu who has outgrown the joke character status it started as.

Kazuya not being as hype as the others isn't a good argument. It's entirely subjective.KOS-MOS isn't a Xenoblade character. She's a Xenosaga character who has occasional cameos.

Jr's alts aren't that much work now that they are made.

 

[Among Waddle Dees]

Genuinely asking, when was the last time a "lock" actually got in?

That's a tricky question, since the speculation going into each Smash game has gotten way bigger than normal. There's typically been a mix of expectations met and warped, going back to the Melee days. But going strictly with the ability to safe guess a character is difficult due to a high set of expectation changes in the last few years.

That said, I think you may have pointed out an elephant in the room: the actual amount of Ultimate's immediate "locks" getting in was extremely small. Inkling certainly, but other than a somewhat off-timed Isabelle, and arguably the ARMS candidate game they played, none of Ultimate's newcomers felt like they always had much of a shot in the eyes of the public view. That isn't to say some smaller scale expectations weren't met, but until Ultimate's extended goals became more evident, the ability to predict who they might include, based solely on previous decisions they made, was not as easy as everyone expected.

 

[Shinuto]

Kazuya not being as hype as the others isn't a good argument. It's entirely subjective.KOS-MOS isn't a Xenoblade character. She's a Xenosaga character who has occasional cameos.

Jr's alts aren't that much work now that they are made.

I know shes a Xenosaga character, I was saying I wanted to add another particular Xenoblade character but they werent in the roster maker.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I'll say this much, even as someone with a few quibbles towards the Ultimate roster (no Dixie, Impa, or BWD) seeing the back-and-forth debates about hypothetical rosters really does make me respect what Nintendo and Sakurai went for with fighter selections. Given the numerous different types of fans it was aiming to please and the understandable profit aims involved, Ultimate being fairly unpredictable while still pretty satisfying with its choices is quite impressive.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

Kazuya not being as hype as the others isn't a good argument. It's entirely subjective.KOS-MOS isn't a Xenoblade character. She's a Xenosaga character who has occasional cameos.

Jr's alts aren't that much work now that they are made.

I think you mean objective.
Subjective means it's open to interpretation.

Wait, I read your post wrong because spacing. My bad. Thought it was towards the KOS-MOS part.

 

[Sucumbio]

's reveal made me actually utter aloud

"Oh sh..!"

tho... My MW franchise and after all the heihachi costume dooming, I was speechless the hype was overload... And then he dumps Kirby in a volcano! There is none higher.

 

[Pupp135]

As we’re discussing cuts, one thing that I’m interested in seeing is lists of how everyone would prioritize characters for returning to the next game. I’ll review mine before posting.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

As we’re discussing cuts, one thing that I’m interested in seeing is lists of how everyone would prioritize characters for returning to the next game. I’ll review mine before posting.

Should I post my old priority list again?

 

[SPEN18]

Why does it feel like there should be some running joke about people cutting Diddy?
He's got to be in the top like 30 or so characters to keep at worst. inb4 he is this next game's 4!Yoshi, as a character who might feasibly not appear in the initial trailers and people start worrying over them when really they're safe all along.

 

[Pupp135]

Should I post my old priority list again?

I think it’s nice to see, but don’t feel pressured.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I think it’s nice to see, but don’t feel pressured.

You know, I only have my first draft on me.

I'll post it anyways, but it's slightly outdated.

 

[cashregister9]

I'm not quite sure where the "Konami characters are hard to get" thought came from, is it just because of the stuff with Smash 4?

Ultimate I feel shows that Konami is willing to play ball because we not only got (technically) 3 characters but also Bomberman as an assist and costume and also a Goemon costume. Also Metal Gear got Spirits in the base game unlike with Cloud.

(Although considering Konami's history of being awful It would not shock me if all if they suddenly become a ***** to work with.)

 

[Shinuto]

What are some pure BIAS Most Wanted?
I Know she will NEVER get in in any form, but Marina Liteyears would be just below Shantae for me in terms of hype. Smash Remix is the best I can get and frankly its quality is on par with an official Smash release.